But George, the Wierwille apologists don't want to let go of their security blanket. I mean...that guy in India MUST have been healed!...it gives them a straw to grasp at...makes them feel...you know, "spiritual".
As I mentioned, I was referring to the testimonies by Linda and Ex10 which were just before your original post. Do you not believe their accounts? I do, because it is their first hand testimony...neither is talking about what someone else saw, or what bad or good thing happened to someone else...yes, we have a lot of that happening on GS. But each witnessed the healing, one being healed herself.
And I guarantee you that neither closes her eyes to wrongs that happened in TWI, including the faults of VPW.
I believe their perception of their accounts. What we don't know is what really happened.
How long does it take a cold sore to heal? Did it really heal up completely or was it only not as noticeable? And how bad were all the other injuries or maladies that people have spoken of? Do they have before and after x-rays? Lab results of blood tests before and after?
I've had injuries that seemed debilitating at the time of the accident, an ankle so sore I couldn't put any weight on it, a shoulder so sore I couldn't raise my arm, etc, only to find out just a little time later, that the pain was vastly reduced or gone altogether. Such was even the case with the Red Sox pitcher last week. He couldn't get out of bed on the morning of the game, and while driving in to the ball park saw all the signs of encouragement from the devoted fans. He got to the park and realized he felt well enough to play, and won the game. I've OFTEN gotten out of bed feeling so sick I was just cetain I had a horrendous day ahead of me, yet a few hours later, after sucking it up and just going to work, I felt fine. And Wierwille was no where around for either of us.
Maybe we're all healed all the time (though somewhat capriciously) by the Almighty. I don't tend to believe any of that sort of stuff as it would neccessitate the abandoning all of the known laws of physics, but then, YMMV...
I believe their _perception_ of their accounts. What we don't know is what really happened.
How long does it take a cold sore to heal? Did it really heal up _completely_ or was it only not as noticeable?
"dried up and was gone" is a straightforward description, not leaving any room for becoming "less noticeable". Now, if Ex10 were a lover of VPW who believed he never did any wrong, then it would be easy to accuse her of lying, or even remembering what she wanted to remember. But I think she would have her own words for such a description of her.
Now, if by perception you mean the assumed reason that the sore was healed completely in a couple of hours after several days of stressing over it, have at it. Just nature, I guess.
Linda's description is just as straightforward...though I really suppose you think she turned a little scratch into a nasty, deep facial cut for her post.
So we've got 1st hand accounts of cuts and a cold sore. I know this is an informal survey, but that's a tad underwhelming for a ministry that stressed 9 manifestations one of which - if I recall correctly - was healing.
I have no doubt that Linda and Ex10th remember those incidents exactly as they're retelling them. I also don't doubt that they have long since lost any desire to promote The Vickster or his cult.
But I think they do hang on to the (mistaken - IMHO) notion that "miracles" of healing can and do take place. They carry that belief around with them, and, given the right circumstances, will point to incidents and say "See, what'd I tell ya?"
Given that we were all looking for evidence to back up our beliefs, I wouldn't find it the least bit remarkable that maybe what really happened had more to do with their desire to see mircales happen and then add in a little "confirmation bias", "selective thinking", and wrap it all up with a heaping dose of "ad hoc hypothosis" and Voila! another "miracle". And no doubt, the story gets better with each retelling (or I am the only one?).
Doesn't it ever make you wonder that really dramatic, unfakeable healings NEVER happen to anyone you know? I mean stuff like, a confirmed dead person, cold in a morgue, getting raised from the dead, or an amputee growing a new limb back, a deaf/mute really receiving his hearing (no cochlear implants or hearing aids, a fer-real spurchal healing), or someone who's really blind getting his sight back?
Why it takes just as much believing to heal that cold sore as it does to raise the dead, now don't it?
Out of interest, what about me or my post looks "familiar"? (though my earlier post with the"Heel", which didn't sink in until last night, does bear a passing resemblance to lindy's signature).
Say does anyone remember that VPW taugh hat a healing fromGod was a permenant healing? I do, so why did the cld sore come back after the so called healing?
The only real healing that I actully witnessed was when my future husband healed my 13 year old daughter of asthma, which plagued he from infancy. I can't count the number of times we had to rush her to the hospital.
Than one afternoon after a serious attack my soon to be hubby asked her if she was tired of being sick, she said yes, he told her that God could heal her instantly she beleived him and he ministered healing to her and now she is 40 and has never had another attack of asthma. Do I beleive in healing? You betcha. Im beleiving for me own healing now but I think as we grow older something happens to us to where we ? healing. Whats that all about.
Agreed, templelady. Weren't we taught that it was the sick person's believing that got him healed, not the healer's? So unless Wierwille's ministrations included some heavy revvy that we can ooh and ah about, the healing would have nothing to do with him -- the credit would go to God, and to the believing of the person being ministered to.
If a person believed that Wierwille could heal him, then VP could have done the hokey-pokey, and it would have been enough to heal that person.
Shaz, I can only speak for me, but when VP ministered to me, I really wasn't expecting "VP to heal me." I was expecting God to heal me, which is what VP told me was possible in the process of ministering to/praying with me. I didn't know VP. I'd never laid eyes on him before that day, because I hadn't taken PFAL yet.
Dovey is right...there are two separate issues here, the first being whether God can/does heal and the second whether someone like VP could have any part in precipitating the healing.
To the first, I'd say of course God can and does. Why not always? I don't know.
To the second, I can only say that I believe VP's pointing out that God could heal me and cared about whether I got healed did affect the outcome. If someone had come along and said, "Well, you're screwed. That's gonna leave a nasty scar. Would you like a wheelchair?" I might have been just as easily swayed to expect the worst. But that's not the way it went.
My son reminded me of another healing--one that he received when we were in the Family Corps. He was sick in bed with an ear infection. He'd been plagued with them since infancy, getting several a year, and they were accompanied by high fevers and severe ear aches.
VP was visiting the campus and heard some people were sick. So he went to the rooms of the sick ones and prayed for them. When he prayed for my son, he specifically said, "You'll never have another ear infection again." My son was 12 at the time. Now he's 37 and he's never had another ear infection. That's after 12 years of having 3-4 per year.
Coincidence? I don't think so. I think God was not limited by VP's wrongdoing/sins. When VP was attempting to do the right thing, I believe God honored that. That certainly doesn't mean I can't recognize where VP screwed up royally.
i tend to agree linzee. i'm so happy for your son. i think god could work through oops with anybody and anything.... really.... he's god.... thank god....
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GrouchoMarxJr
But George, the Wierwille apologists don't want to let go of their security blanket. I mean...that guy in India MUST have been healed!...it gives them a straw to grasp at...makes them feel...you know, "spiritual".
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Lifted Up
As I mentioned, I was referring to the testimonies by Linda and Ex10 which were just before your original post. Do you not believe their accounts? I do, because it is their first hand testimony...neither is talking about what someone else saw, or what bad or good thing happened to someone else...yes, we have a lot of that happening on GS. But each witnessed the healing, one being healed herself.
And I guarantee you that neither closes her eyes to wrongs that happened in TWI, including the faults of VPW.
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George Aar
" Do you not believe their accounts?"
I believe their perception of their accounts. What we don't know is what really happened.
How long does it take a cold sore to heal? Did it really heal up completely or was it only not as noticeable? And how bad were all the other injuries or maladies that people have spoken of? Do they have before and after x-rays? Lab results of blood tests before and after?
I've had injuries that seemed debilitating at the time of the accident, an ankle so sore I couldn't put any weight on it, a shoulder so sore I couldn't raise my arm, etc, only to find out just a little time later, that the pain was vastly reduced or gone altogether. Such was even the case with the Red Sox pitcher last week. He couldn't get out of bed on the morning of the game, and while driving in to the ball park saw all the signs of encouragement from the devoted fans. He got to the park and realized he felt well enough to play, and won the game. I've OFTEN gotten out of bed feeling so sick I was just cetain I had a horrendous day ahead of me, yet a few hours later, after sucking it up and just going to work, I felt fine. And Wierwille was no where around for either of us.
Maybe we're all healed all the time (though somewhat capriciously) by the Almighty. I don't tend to believe any of that sort of stuff as it would neccessitate the abandoning all of the known laws of physics, but then, YMMV...
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
"And I guarantee you that neither closes her eyes to wrongs that happened in TWI, including the faults of VPW."
Faults of VPW? FAULTS!!!Like one that does not understand a Presidential display of utensils pon the table? FAULTS??? Which fork do i use???
Nay not "FAULTS!!!" Outright cult, let's say in comparison uhmm JZKNIGHT.
We all have faults.
VPW even said something like he wished to be the man he ought to be.
Faults of VPW~~~ my oh my~~~ like he stole a pack of chewing gum from the local Ma & Paw convenience store.
Nah, he robbed the store and shot ma and paw down for a pack of bubble chew.
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templelady
AHEM!!!!
Do I believe that Linda and EX10 were healed?? of course I do. I was miraculously healed of a soft tissue sarcoma a few years back. Healing is real.
DO I believe VPW did ythe HEaling N OOOOOOOO
WHY?
Becuase VPW taught in PFAL that YOUR believing is what heals. YOu don't believe YOU don't get healed.
GOD honored mine, and linda's and Ex10's faith.
THe fact that VPW was standing there does nothing to change it.
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Lifted Up
Of course the healing was real. And of course God did the healing, whether VPW or one of us or anyone ministered it.
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George Aar
"Of course the healing was real. And of course God did the healing"
Well, of course...
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Lifted Up
BTW Mo, could you check your PT?
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Lifted Up
"dried up and was gone" is a straightforward description, not leaving any room for becoming "less noticeable". Now, if Ex10 were a lover of VPW who believed he never did any wrong, then it would be easy to accuse her of lying, or even remembering what she wanted to remember. But I think she would have her own words for such a description of her.
Now, if by perception you mean the assumed reason that the sore was healed completely in a couple of hours after several days of stressing over it, have at it. Just nature, I guess.
Linda's description is just as straightforward...though I really suppose you think she turned a little scratch into a nasty, deep facial cut for her post.
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Orange Cat
So we've got 1st hand accounts of cuts and a cold sore. I know this is an informal survey, but that's a tad underwhelming for a ministry that stressed 9 manifestations one of which - if I recall correctly - was healing.
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George Aar
Lifted up,
I don't think you're understanding me yet.
I have no doubt that Linda and Ex10th remember those incidents exactly as they're retelling them. I also don't doubt that they have long since lost any desire to promote The Vickster or his cult.
But I think they do hang on to the (mistaken - IMHO) notion that "miracles" of healing can and do take place. They carry that belief around with them, and, given the right circumstances, will point to incidents and say "See, what'd I tell ya?"
Given that we were all looking for evidence to back up our beliefs, I wouldn't find it the least bit remarkable that maybe what really happened had more to do with their desire to see mircales happen and then add in a little "confirmation bias", "selective thinking", and wrap it all up with a heaping dose of "ad hoc hypothosis" and Voila! another "miracle". And no doubt, the story gets better with each retelling (or I am the only one?).
Doesn't it ever make you wonder that really dramatic, unfakeable healings NEVER happen to anyone you know? I mean stuff like, a confirmed dead person, cold in a morgue, getting raised from the dead, or an amputee growing a new limb back, a deaf/mute really receiving his hearing (no cochlear implants or hearing aids, a fer-real spurchal healing), or someone who's really blind getting his sight back?
Why it takes just as much believing to heal that cold sore as it does to raise the dead, now don't it?
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TheInvisibleDan
A VPW PRAYER FOR HEELING
"Heel!......HEEEEEL!!!!!
Sit...SIT!!!
...Roll over."
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Sunny1
Dear TheInvisibleDan:
You look familiar . . . do you know me?
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Lifted Up
agreed JT.
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TheInvisibleDan
Dear Sunny1-
Aside from our handles and avatars - not really.
Out of interest, what about me or my post looks "familiar"? (though my earlier post with the"Heel", which didn't sink in until last night, does bear a passing resemblance to lindy's signature).
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wyteduv58
Say does anyone remember that VPW taugh hat a healing fromGod was a permenant healing? I do, so why did the cld sore come back after the so called healing?
The only real healing that I actully witnessed was when my future husband healed my 13 year old daughter of asthma, which plagued he from infancy. I can't count the number of times we had to rush her to the hospital.
Than one afternoon after a serious attack my soon to be hubby asked her if she was tired of being sick, she said yes, he told her that God could heal her instantly she beleived him and he ministered healing to her and now she is 40 and has never had another attack of asthma. Do I beleive in healing? You betcha. Im beleiving for me own healing now but I think as we grow older something happens to us to where we ? healing. Whats that all about.
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templelady
If you deny the possibility of Miracles--or narrrowly define what constitutes a miracle--you will often miss the miracles that take place.
THere are really two questions going on the thread
1 did VPW perform miracles of Healing
2 DO miracles exist
My answer to one is as I have already explained that GOD did the healing
and I do in fact believe in miracles of healing
If you question the existence of miracles in the first place God vs VPW becomes a moot point
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shazdancer
Agreed, templelady. Weren't we taught that it was the sick person's believing that got him healed, not the healer's? So unless Wierwille's ministrations included some heavy revvy that we can ooh and ah about, the healing would have nothing to do with him -- the credit would go to God, and to the believing of the person being ministered to.
If a person believed that Wierwille could heal him, then VP could have done the hokey-pokey, and it would have been enough to heal that person.
Regards,
Shaz
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Linda Z
Shaz, I can only speak for me, but when VP ministered to me, I really wasn't expecting "VP to heal me." I was expecting God to heal me, which is what VP told me was possible in the process of ministering to/praying with me. I didn't know VP. I'd never laid eyes on him before that day, because I hadn't taken PFAL yet.
Dovey is right...there are two separate issues here, the first being whether God can/does heal and the second whether someone like VP could have any part in precipitating the healing.
To the first, I'd say of course God can and does. Why not always? I don't know.
To the second, I can only say that I believe VP's pointing out that God could heal me and cared about whether I got healed did affect the outcome. If someone had come along and said, "Well, you're screwed. That's gonna leave a nasty scar. Would you like a wheelchair?" I might have been just as easily swayed to expect the worst. But that's not the way it went.
My son reminded me of another healing--one that he received when we were in the Family Corps. He was sick in bed with an ear infection. He'd been plagued with them since infancy, getting several a year, and they were accompanied by high fevers and severe ear aches.
VP was visiting the campus and heard some people were sick. So he went to the rooms of the sick ones and prayed for them. When he prayed for my son, he specifically said, "You'll never have another ear infection again." My son was 12 at the time. Now he's 37 and he's never had another ear infection. That's after 12 years of having 3-4 per year.
Coincidence? I don't think so. I think God was not limited by VP's wrongdoing/sins. When VP was attempting to do the right thing, I believe God honored that. That certainly doesn't mean I can't recognize where VP screwed up royally.
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excathedra
i tend to agree linzee. i'm so happy for your son. i think god could work through oops with anybody and anything.... really.... he's god.... thank god....
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excathedra
i miss dovie (can't see her for a while)
and i miss orange cat
and song
they healed me
mwah
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