quote:And NOW it`s *dumped every teaching that twi ever taught* because of wierwille`s transgressions ... that is quite a far cry from *renouncing the word* because of others sins .......as you accused us of before.
Not the same at all.
Here's where I got that from:
quote:As for me, I will go with Catcup's response. Throw it all out, then go back if you want and examine the Bible point by point, and live by those things that make sense.
But that is a whole nother discussion oldies...what Shaz said shouldn`t change the premiss of YOUR thread...
*Throwing out all twi teachings because of wierwilles transgressions* does not in any way equate with your first assertion that we were *Renouncing the word because of others sins*
Two totally different critters.
One action makes absolute sense...the other would be an extremely foolish thing to do.
Some folks want to throw it all away and start over, irrespective of whether it is truth or not, because of Wierwille's transgressions. That is evident by some folks' responses.
That's you, isn't it Rascal? Can't trust anything from twi, since such a horrible human being founded it?
Can't admit twi did anything good for anyone, or taught truth, cause of Wierwille's sins? Only the evil means anything to you?
You choose what you do, and keep denying that twi taught us principles of truth; it's your privilege.
Coolwaters, you didn't strike me as engaging in insults and putdowns. You're letting your greasespot friends influence your judgment and now your just as critical and judgmental as they, apparently. Hope you don't take it to heart ...
Coolwaters, you didn't strike me as engaging in insults and putdowns. You're letting your greasespot friends influence your judgment and now your just as critical and judgmental as they, apparently.
Howdy folks. This has turned into quite an interesting thread.
This is my first post on this thread.
--
First of all I suggest that everyone on both "sides" try to remain respectful, practice patience with each other, and let's look for a solution to one of the major problems (with TWI) revealed in this thread:
PEOPLE who represent/understand God,Jesus,Holy Spirit and or claim to represent/understand God,Jesus,Holy Spirit,
SOME OF THESE same PEOPLE are often found to be just as unwilling or unable to "Walk by the spirit instead of the flesh" as those who they would instruct or lead.
SOME OF THESE same PEOPLE are often found to be
just as imprisoned by sins, addictions, prejudices as anybody else.
------
In my seven years in twi (1972-1979) I never saw or heard any really usable or practical teaching in how to walk by the spirit.
I took "Renewed Mind" seminar many times.
I read and reread Romans especially those middle "chapters" discussing the old/new man.
I took the Advanced class to learn about walking by the spirit, but that did not dis-arm my fleshly old man.
I think that the largest failure in twi teaching was in this category.
"Christ in you" was a commonly used epression but I never found it to have any practical or beneficial presence in twi, unless you believed their theology of "move the word,move the word,move the word,move the word,"
Spirituality and christian maturity came to be measured by your obedience, fellowship and knowledge of their own "ministy" and it's traditions and exclusionary values.
---
I have divested myself of 95-99 % of what TWI had to say because I have found it doctrinally and practically unsound.
I moved away from twi doctrine first (because I knew no one who really was being freed from their old man), before I found out about the rampant corruption among the "teachers".
----
If the core (corps) leadership did not know how to "renew their minds" (The leadership was teaching "empty" doctrine about our life in Christ) and the followers were not growing in their faith, then where is that "baby" that everyone is referring to in the bathwater?
--
I would ask those who still carry twi doctrines in their brain or heart to share how they really help them in their life now.
--
Once again let's all try to remember that each one of our experiences in twi was unique;
and
that how we depart from fellowshipping , and depart from their specific doctrines is unique also.
What we can possibly do as a group is humanely discuss and listen without namecallling and stuff and glean some purpose out of this whole thing we invested so much of ourselves in.
I didn't say "anyone else" or "everyone else", I said some folks. Nice try, Oakspear.
It looks to me like some of these folks expressing themselves on these threads have dumped every teaching twi had to offer, because of Wierwille's transgressions. The Leaven Principle, I guess. If that doesn't apply to you, Oakspear, it doesn't apply. I didn't suggest otherwise. That's up to you to admit or deny.
I stand by my statement
Actually, I'm in the minority here since I am no longer a Christian post-TWI, but it's not because of Wierwille's sins. And I had the same reaction that rascal did which she ably expressed in the following quote:
quote:And NOW it`s *dumped every teaching that twi ever taught* because of wierwille`s transgressions ... that is quite a far cry from *renouncing the word* because of others sins .......as you accused us of before.
Not the same at all.
What many if not all have done is to discontinue believing what Wierwille taught just because Wierwille taught it. In other words, Wierwille's word that something is true is not good enough, the "truth" must be corroberated from another, more trustworthy, source.
quote: In my seven years in twi (1972-1979) I never saw or heard any really usable or practical teaching in how to walk by the spirit.
I find that hard to swallow. Believing isn't usable? Are you afraid all the time? Doesn't sound like it. Righteousness isn't usable? Do you condemn yourself all the time? God doesn't speak in a still small voice? Do you usually get your revelation while listening to Metallica?
That's just the tip of the iceberg.
quote: I moved away from twi doctrine first (because I knew no one who really was being freed from their old man), before I found out about the rampant corruption among the "teachers".
How on earth do you figure you can know if someone is "really being freed from their old man"? Sounds like you're looking at peoples' flesh in order to gauge their spirituality. You couldn't possibly know about my relationship with my old man OR my new man without revelation.
Romans 10:9&10 ISN'T usable? Reading lots of scripture isn't usable? SIT isn't usable? Sorry, but you lost me.
johniam, I wouldn't call any of what you listed as a 'key' to walking in the Spirit.
quote: I find that hard to swallow. Believing isn't usable? Are you afraid all the time? Doesn't sound like it. Righteousness isn't usable? Do you condemn yourself all the time? God doesn't speak in a still small voice?
1. Wierwille's teaching on believeing is so wrong as to make it poison. Yes, unusable.
2. The whole deal of not condemning yourself as taught by Wierwille has to be one of the most dangerous teachings of all. Peter & Paul both remained painfully aware of their sins. That was part of their greatness. So, what do I deem so dangerous? In the Way lexicon of practice, if you sinned the WORST thing you could do is compound the problem by condemning yourself, right. Yep. Just put it out of your mind and think about something else. All those warning signs, your inner voice telling you what's really so...all of that is effectively silenced. Leading to massive cognitive dissonance.
The point of "beloved if our heart condemn us not then have we confidence toard God" is NOT 'don't condemn yourself' but to REPENT. The POINT, as always, is JESUS. He is the advocate. OUR requirement is repentance and confession. "Don't condemn yourself" effectively silences repentance. It effectively rids one of the need to make things right when one has messed up.
Very dangerous.
The key to walking by the Spirit, by the way, isn't a key. It's a person, Jesus.
of Imagination (like, it's in your right pocket), into another Dimension of Dispensations, the Watery Abyss and the Renewed Mind... You have just stepped into...
quote:... I would ask those who still carry twi doctrines in their brain or heart to share how they really help them in their life now.
--
Once again let's all try to remember that each one of our experiences in twi was unique;
and
that how we depart from fellowshipping , and depart from their specific doctrines is unique also.
What we can possibly do as a group is humanely discuss and listen without namecallling and stuff and glean some purpose out of this whole thing we invested so much of ourselves in.
God Bless,
Darrell
Darrell, knowing that I'm a child of God, born again of God's spirit, heaven bound and all power of hell can't stop me from going, really helps me cause in my RC church experience I was wandering in darkness and didn't know that one simple truth. Knowing YOU are saved, helps me. Knowing that we are saved by God's graceful gift, not by works, helps me. Knowing that I can speak in tongues, helps me. Knowing my sonship rights, helps me. Knowing the goodness of God and the badness of the devil, helps me. Knowing that the bible is reliable and worthy of respect and examination, helps me. Knowing that the dead are not alive, helps me. Knowing that Jesus is the son of God and our Messiah, helps me. All these goodies and more were taught at twi-1.
Folks who throw the above away and start over because of Wierwille's transgressions, have the right to do so. I choose a different path.
quote:What many if not all have done is to discontinue believing what Wierwille taught just because Wierwille taught it. In other words, Wierwille's word that something is true is not good enough, the "truth" must be corroberated from another, more trustworthy, source.
Oakspear, because Wierwille has lied in his life, you throw out everything he ever taught, because everything is untrustworthy he taught, because Wierwille lied.
Sounds to me like you, Oakspear, have abandoned the truths you learned in twi, because of Wierwille's sins.
You say you're not a Christian anymore? You mean to tell me you haven't found Christianity outside of TWI? Christianity exists outside of twi from trustworthy sources, albeit, sinners as well. So I conclude you threw out the baby with the bathwater because of Wierwille's sins. Your reason: he lied.
Well oldies, if you cannot trust the man in that which was small..(IF one can consider lying, adultery, fornicating, and just cussed meanness small)..vpw his very own moggy SELF said that you cannot ever trust them with anything big....
Ya suppose he was snickering under his breath at the *truth* of that statement?
Does it make you mad that folks like oak and others have wonderfull spiritually healthy lives that begin AFTER throwing out the bath water, the baby, (although I must say, after closer examination most have concluded that there never really WAS a baby...just a cleverly manufactured realistic looking fake doll).....the tub...
Does it irritate you that God works even bigger
and better for us all OUTSIDE the confines of twi dogma?
I think that we irritate you because you cannot reconcile your belief system to the reality of a spiritually healthy life AFTER leaving twi.
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oldiesman
Here's where I got that from:
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rascal
But that is a whole nother discussion oldies...what Shaz said shouldn`t change the premiss of YOUR thread...
*Throwing out all twi teachings because of wierwilles transgressions* does not in any way equate with your first assertion that we were *Renouncing the word because of others sins*
Two totally different critters.
One action makes absolute sense...the other would be an extremely foolish thing to do.
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oldiesman
Yes it is the same.
Some folks want to throw it all away and start over, irrespective of whether it is truth or not, because of Wierwille's transgressions. That is evident by some folks' responses.
That's you, isn't it Rascal? Can't trust anything from twi, since such a horrible human being founded it?
Can't admit twi did anything good for anyone, or taught truth, cause of Wierwille's sins? Only the evil means anything to you?
You choose what you do, and keep denying that twi taught us principles of truth; it's your privilege.
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rascal
Oldies...you have no idea what I do...lol I told you that you cannot trust your perceptions.
Read again please...there is a world of differance between
A) Dumping all of twi teachings because of wierwilles transgressions.
and
B) Renouncing the word because of anothers sins.
Once again...wierwilles teachings do NOT equal the *word*
I will readily admit to doing A as a necessary step in healing and continuing my journey...B, your version would be abhorant to me...
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oldiesman
In the context of this thread, they are one in the same.
TRY to put them together ...
Unless you believe that we weren't taught ANY truth in twi, well, that's a whole different ballgame.
In that case, I'd say you are definitely mistaken ...
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rascal
Nope...there is a world of differance.
Wierwilles teachings do not equal the word...
Shall we begin a list of crazy crap he taught that YOU are declairing THE *word*?
Um help me out guys...all women in the kingdom belong to the king
The man of God equals the king.
Um ....Wierwille could heal with sex....
Um....It was a privelege to service the mog so that he could better serve the body...
um....If your kids had to die in a commie take over let em...you can always have more later...just save yourself so you can continue the word....
Um...breath life...
Um...cancer is a devil spirit....
Um....the original sin in the garden of eden was masterbation....just to name a few little gems.
See what I mean? that crappola cannot possibly be considered the *word* and it NEEDS to be flushed outta our minds...
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CoolWaters
Repeating here what I said to you on another thread...
Coming from someone (you, OM) who defends pedophiles, rapists, wife beaters, idolators, murderers, etc...
Well, it really doesn't matter what you think about the bible at all...
Because according to the bible itself, you cannot know the things of the spirit.
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oldiesman
Coolwaters, you didn't strike me as engaging in insults and putdowns. You're letting your greasespot friends influence your judgment and now your just as critical and judgmental as they, apparently. Hope you don't take it to heart ...
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CoolWaters
No sir. Not at all.
The bible is pretty clear about this subject.
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oldiesman
Coolwaters, the bible says a whole lot of things.
If your mind is set only on trash, those scriptures that accentuate your mindset are the only scriptures that will mean anything to you.
Hope you don't make it part of your heart ...
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CoolWaters
OM, do you claim to follow the bible as truth?
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JustThinking
Oh boy, here we go... :-)
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oldiesman
Coolwaters, ok I give up, what's the punchline now?
I'm too tired to argue any more today, have a wonderful evening.
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CoolWaters
No punchline.
Simple question.
Should be a simple answer.
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Darrell Bailey
Howdy folks. This has turned into quite an interesting thread.
This is my first post on this thread.
--
First of all I suggest that everyone on both "sides" try to remain respectful, practice patience with each other, and let's look for a solution to one of the major problems (with TWI) revealed in this thread:
PEOPLE who represent/understand God,Jesus,Holy Spirit and or claim to represent/understand God,Jesus,Holy Spirit,
SOME OF THESE same PEOPLE are often found to be just as unwilling or unable to "Walk by the spirit instead of the flesh" as those who they would instruct or lead.
SOME OF THESE same PEOPLE are often found to be
just as imprisoned by sins, addictions, prejudices as anybody else.
------
In my seven years in twi (1972-1979) I never saw or heard any really usable or practical teaching in how to walk by the spirit.
I took "Renewed Mind" seminar many times.
I read and reread Romans especially those middle "chapters" discussing the old/new man.
I took the Advanced class to learn about walking by the spirit, but that did not dis-arm my fleshly old man.
I think that the largest failure in twi teaching was in this category.
"Christ in you" was a commonly used epression but I never found it to have any practical or beneficial presence in twi, unless you believed their theology of "move the word,move the word,move the word,move the word,"
Spirituality and christian maturity came to be measured by your obedience, fellowship and knowledge of their own "ministy" and it's traditions and exclusionary values.
---
I have divested myself of 95-99 % of what TWI had to say because I have found it doctrinally and practically unsound.
I moved away from twi doctrine first (because I knew no one who really was being freed from their old man), before I found out about the rampant corruption among the "teachers".
----
If the core (corps) leadership did not know how to "renew their minds" (The leadership was teaching "empty" doctrine about our life in Christ) and the followers were not growing in their faith, then where is that "baby" that everyone is referring to in the bathwater?
--
I would ask those who still carry twi doctrines in their brain or heart to share how they really help them in their life now.
--
Once again let's all try to remember that each one of our experiences in twi was unique;
and
that how we depart from fellowshipping , and depart from their specific doctrines is unique also.
What we can possibly do as a group is humanely discuss and listen without namecallling and stuff and glean some purpose out of this whole thing we invested so much of ourselves in.
God Bless,
Darrell
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Oakspear
Actually, I'm in the minority here since I am no longer a Christian post-TWI, but it's not because of Wierwille's sins. And I had the same reaction that rascal did which she ably expressed in the following quote:
What many if not all have done is to discontinue believing what Wierwille taught just because Wierwille taught it. In other words, Wierwille's word that something is true is not good enough, the "truth" must be corroberated from another, more trustworthy, source.Link to comment
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johniam
DB:
quote: In my seven years in twi (1972-1979) I never saw or heard any really usable or practical teaching in how to walk by the spirit.
I find that hard to swallow. Believing isn't usable? Are you afraid all the time? Doesn't sound like it. Righteousness isn't usable? Do you condemn yourself all the time? God doesn't speak in a still small voice? Do you usually get your revelation while listening to Metallica?
That's just the tip of the iceberg.
quote: I moved away from twi doctrine first (because I knew no one who really was being freed from their old man), before I found out about the rampant corruption among the "teachers".
How on earth do you figure you can know if someone is "really being freed from their old man"? Sounds like you're looking at peoples' flesh in order to gauge their spirituality. You couldn't possibly know about my relationship with my old man OR my new man without revelation.
Romans 10:9&10 ISN'T usable? Reading lots of scripture isn't usable? SIT isn't usable? Sorry, but you lost me.
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WordWolf
Rascal, 10/21/04, 3:34pm.
Oldiesman's proximal response, (10/21/04, 3:37pm)
"In the context of this thread, they are one in the same."
It took an awful long time in this thread for Oldies to admit he was
playing wordgames with the rest of us.
He claimed a few pages ago that what Goey considers "core" is what
Oldies considers "core".
However, here we have an admission that what is "core" to Oldies,
what is "The Word",
is "wierwilles' teachings" and "twi's teachings".
Except when they aren't,
like when they want 10-15% of his income.
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TheEvan
johniam, I wouldn't call any of what you listed as a 'key' to walking in the Spirit.
1. Wierwille's teaching on believeing is so wrong as to make it poison. Yes, unusable.
2. The whole deal of not condemning yourself as taught by Wierwille has to be one of the most dangerous teachings of all. Peter & Paul both remained painfully aware of their sins. That was part of their greatness. So, what do I deem so dangerous? In the Way lexicon of practice, if you sinned the WORST thing you could do is compound the problem by condemning yourself, right. Yep. Just put it out of your mind and think about something else. All those warning signs, your inner voice telling you what's really so...all of that is effectively silenced. Leading to massive cognitive dissonance.
The point of "beloved if our heart condemn us not then have we confidence toard God" is NOT 'don't condemn yourself' but to REPENT. The POINT, as always, is JESUS. He is the advocate. OUR requirement is repentance and confession. "Don't condemn yourself" effectively silences repentance. It effectively rids one of the need to make things right when one has messed up.
Very dangerous.
The key to walking by the Spirit, by the way, isn't a key. It's a person, Jesus.
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TheInvisibleDan
There is a Key that unlocks
the Door to a Wonderous Realm
of Imagination (like, it's in your right pocket), into another Dimension of Dispensations, the Watery Abyss and the Renewed Mind... You have just stepped into...
THE TWI-DARK ZONE©
do-do-do-doo-doo....
scarey!
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oldiesman
Folks who throw the above away and start over because of Wierwille's transgressions, have the right to do so. I choose a different path.
Thanks for your input.
:)-->
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oldiesman
Sounds to me like you, Oakspear, have abandoned the truths you learned in twi, because of Wierwille's sins.
You say you're not a Christian anymore? You mean to tell me you haven't found Christianity outside of TWI? Christianity exists outside of twi from trustworthy sources, albeit, sinners as well. So I conclude you threw out the baby with the bathwater because of Wierwille's sins. Your reason: he lied.
You prove my point, Oakspear.
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rascal
Well oldies, if you cannot trust the man in that which was small..(IF one can consider lying, adultery, fornicating, and just cussed meanness small)..vpw his very own moggy SELF said that you cannot ever trust them with anything big....
Ya suppose he was snickering under his breath at the *truth* of that statement?
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rascal
Does it make you mad that folks like oak and others have wonderfull spiritually healthy lives that begin AFTER throwing out the bath water, the baby, (although I must say, after closer examination most have concluded that there never really WAS a baby...just a cleverly manufactured realistic looking fake doll).....the tub...
Does it irritate you that God works even bigger
and better for us all OUTSIDE the confines of twi dogma?
I think that we irritate you because you cannot reconcile your belief system to the reality of a spiritually healthy life AFTER leaving twi.
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