quote:Can anyone name just one poster who has rejected "The Word" because of VP's sins? Or even has rejected any of what TWI taught (true or not) because of Wierwille's sins?
I suspect that such a person does not exist.
YES HE DOES. His name is Oakspear. Here's his quote:
quote:What many if not all have done is to discontinue believing what Wierwille taught just because Wierwille taught it. In other words, Wierwille's word that something is true is not good enough, the "truth" must be corroberated from another, more trustworthy, source.
Why is a more trustworthy source wanted? Because he lied, he sinned, he transgressed. "Just because Wierwille taught it". Why is that?
Is there another reason that I'm missing, or not quite understanding, why a more trustworthy source is desired? Please respond cause my moronic and dense braincells can't figure it out, I don't have ESP, I'm not Sylvia Browne.
If not, I conclude that you Oakspear have thrown out the baby with the bathwater because of Wierwille's transgressions.
Oakspear, I'm just going by what you've said, so if I'm wrong, please explain where I am.
quote:I do not understand why you find me/us so culpable, and yet brand the people who utilized deception to harm us, as folks who simply made some *mistakes*
Well, to be fair, I am willing to state across the board that everyone made some mistakes. :D-->
This thread could go on forever. I haven't posted anything lately because it's taken all my free time just to catch up! :)-->
Speaking FOR MYSELF, what I believe from TWI (PFAL, et al.), I believe, not becuse VPW or any of the others was such a charmer, but because it makes sense to me and fits with the Bible. What I do not believe from TWI, I do not believe, not because VPW or the others were stinkers, but because it either doesn't make sense or contradicts the Bible.
I, personally, have not been so injured that I look back at my TWI years with disgust. Neither do I know anyone personally who has been so injured. But that doesn't mean that there aren't those out there who WERE so injured. I grieve for you who were.
But, as should be obvious by now, there are those who still hold much (or all?) that they learned from TWI in high esteem. They should not be considered "ignorant" or "blinded" for that. Neither should those who consider the balance (or all?) of their TWI experience as loss. We all have different experiences and should respect each other in that light.
Yeah, George, agreed.... we are all at different stages of our journey, we have all have taken different paths as we have been led.
The problem comes comes in when folks want to condemn or slam another for the direction they have been led...or attempt to discredit the course embarked because they have chosen to remain in port.
Some would cast aspersions on the characters of those who have continued onward in their journey. It appears to simply drives em nuts that they cannot control the course of OUR destiny.
I have no problem where a person chooses to be at, or the course they have chosen....just don`t force your damn shoe on my foot...ok?
First, I made contact with TWI via a Twig Fellowship in 1978 and shortly thereafter took the PFAL class.
Lots of things are taught in that class, some which are the same as "orthodox" Christianity, some which are not. Wierwille backs up some of what he says with a plain unvarnished reading of the KJV, but some things that he teaches are based on Greek and Hebrew texts and definitions, most of which I was unqualified to verify, and some of which differ from what can be found in Greek and Hebrew reference works.
Insofar as I couldn't read the biblical languages, I had to take his word for some of the things which he taught. In my view he established his trustworthiness to me (at that time) by his plain reading of verses that contradicted the orthodox view - what was written appeared to coincide with what he taught.
Since many things that he taught were based on these unverifiable (to me) definitions and interpretations, much of what I believed was based on an assumption that he was telling the truth about what he was teaching.
Anyone who says that they didn't follow the PFAL doctrine just because Wierwille taught it should, IMHO, reconsider in light of what I just wrote
Years later Martindale took over as primary teacher of TWI. Mostly he based his teachings on what Wierwille taught, but as time went on he added his own unverifiable definitions and interpretations.
When Martindale taught his new class, The Way of Abundance and Power to the cameras, he was in the midst of an "affair" that would eventually lead to a lawsuit and subsequently to his "dethronement".
I wondered how someone who was so immersed in deception could be in any position to teach the foundational truths to "the household", especially in light of sections like "The First Sin of Mankind" where he comes up with definitions of Hebrew words without any apparent source other than his own mind.
This doubt led me to begin examining Martindale's class, page by page. I found many, many, many errors. I began "throwing out" Martindalean doctrines one by one, not because Martindale sinned, but because the doctrines were not compatible with either the bible or the "keys" that Wierwille taught.
As I dug into Martindale's errors, I began to find similar errors in Wierwille's work. By this time I had made no decision to throw anything out beforehand, but to carefully examine what was taught, using Wierwille's own methodology. (At this time I had no knowledge of Wierwille's sins)
Eventually I found enough errors to undermine my faith that Wierwille's work was fundamentally sound. Later I checked out the CES website and was amzed to find the number of differences between CES and TWI, even though both used Wierwille's keys to letting the bible interpret itself.
After this I took a good hard look at the disagreements among ex-wayfers as to what "The Word" said and meant, then at the multitude of differences among Christian denominations as to what the will of God was...never mind the non-Christian religions out there.
I decided to "reset" my faith as it were, start over. This necessarily meant "throwing out" what I learned before. I wanted to begin anew, starting with being convinced that there was even a God, then moving on to more specific things.
After that I started finding out about Wierwille's lies, his sins, his untrustworthiness.
So, no, I didn't "throw out" anything because of Wierwille's sins.
thats an incredibly sad story oak. I am somewhat amazed that you indicated that you or "we" were required to have a certain amount of sincerety or trust in things we didnt know. Everyone kind of wanted to give VPW the benefit of the doubt. He seemed like he was trying real hard.
I put his doctrine under the magnifying glass right away, picked up 15 credits of Greek at a Lutheran college, and found it woefully lacking. Still, it cost me a lot of time and effort for to dispell what he was saying wasnt simple to do. My own personal experience? Liberation from doctrine, is in my view something everyone needs. Doctrine must assist us in knowledge of God not restrict us. To know not everything, that is good; it keeps my relationship with God fresh.
sometimes i feel like i've entered -- or live in -- the twilight zone
my hero, as a girl, was a relative who shared things with me that were awesome. he seemed like he knew everything in the whole world and he had a beautiful story or explanation for everything. he abused my little girl body and mind
same thing happened a few years later with wierwille
just because it's wrapped in a bible ministry doesn't change much for me
sorry
when my uncle died recently and i fell across his coffin, i didn't ask him how much truth he had taught me.... i asked him, "how could you have done this to me"?
oh well
hope this makes sense to the intellectuals or whatever you are
Yes, I think that's right, as it is being applied here. The Leaven Principle, as I understand it being applied here, is "a little bit of bad makes the whole thing bad."
I do not believe this. Here's basically what I stated before..............
Oldies, you must be hungry by now, after all these pages of "discussion". I just baked some brownies, Am using the best chocolate, extra sugar, going with the "sinfully" rich and creamy frosting, using extra eggs, and oh yes -- am adding 1 cup of dog poop to it as well, but it is just a small portion of the entire recipe, so it won't contaminate the whole batch.
If you believe your statement above, I'd like to serve you some home-made brownies.
Never mind the dog poop, just think of all those wonderful vitamins and minerals in the dairy products.... and of course, dmiller used all of the BEST POSSIBLE AVAILABLE ingredients...........
Ever since "Waydale" I've had a dream. Not a big dream, just a little one.
My dream is that O.M. and his ilk would one day realize that some of the thousands of ex-Wayfers have maybe a smattering of logic on their side, and that maybe WayWorld wasn't any bastion of truth EVER.
Then, with their new-found outlook on life they could finally move out of their mother's basement and go out into the harsh light of day and take on the world as it really is.
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oldiesman
Why is a more trustworthy source wanted? Because he lied, he sinned, he transgressed. "Just because Wierwille taught it". Why is that?
Is there another reason that I'm missing, or not quite understanding, why a more trustworthy source is desired? Please respond cause my moronic and dense braincells can't figure it out, I don't have ESP, I'm not Sylvia Browne.
If not, I conclude that you Oakspear have thrown out the baby with the bathwater because of Wierwille's transgressions.
Oakspear, I'm just going by what you've said, so if I'm wrong, please explain where I am.
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rascal
Yes ma`am ex ....sigh
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oldiesman
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rascal
WHERE was our culpability Oldies and WTH?
We were very young, we were very naieve, many of us already had been kicked around by life.
We dared turn to those who offered us hope in the form of God and scriptures...
Those who offered hope to kids with one hand, ended up dealing a destroying blow with the other.........
I don`t get it....
Please explain our culpability...I really don`t understand.
Why is it wrong to be angry over the betrayal by those who offered us hope?
Why are you defending and excusing those who stole from these kids?
Why are you demonizing those who were betrayed?
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oldiesman
Rascal, you are not a demon ...
Happy Weekend, one and all!
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rascal
Yeah I know, I only PLAY one on gsc.
Too bad you guys have no answere for my questions, as many of us still genuinely feel the sting and are living with the consequences of that betrayal.
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GeorgeStGeorge
This thread could go on forever. I haven't posted anything lately because it's taken all my free time just to catch up!
:)-->
Speaking FOR MYSELF, what I believe from TWI (PFAL, et al.), I believe, not becuse VPW or any of the others was such a charmer, but because it makes sense to me and fits with the Bible. What I do not believe from TWI, I do not believe, not because VPW or the others were stinkers, but because it either doesn't make sense or contradicts the Bible.
I, personally, have not been so injured that I look back at my TWI years with disgust. Neither do I know anyone personally who has been so injured. But that doesn't mean that there aren't those out there who WERE so injured. I grieve for you who were.
But, as should be obvious by now, there are those who still hold much (or all?) that they learned from TWI in high esteem. They should not be considered "ignorant" or "blinded" for that. Neither should those who consider the balance (or all?) of their TWI experience as loss. We all have different experiences and should respect each other in that light.
If we can't "call the game," at least play nice.
George
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rascal
Yeah, George, agreed.... we are all at different stages of our journey, we have all have taken different paths as we have been led.
The problem comes comes in when folks want to condemn or slam another for the direction they have been led...or attempt to discredit the course embarked because they have chosen to remain in port.
Some would cast aspersions on the characters of those who have continued onward in their journey. It appears to simply drives em nuts that they cannot control the course of OUR destiny.
I have no problem where a person chooses to be at, or the course they have chosen....just don`t force your damn shoe on my foot...ok?
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Oakspear
Okay Oldies, I'm going to try ione more time:
I can't speak for others, only for myself.
First, I made contact with TWI via a Twig Fellowship in 1978 and shortly thereafter took the PFAL class.
Lots of things are taught in that class, some which are the same as "orthodox" Christianity, some which are not. Wierwille backs up some of what he says with a plain unvarnished reading of the KJV, but some things that he teaches are based on Greek and Hebrew texts and definitions, most of which I was unqualified to verify, and some of which differ from what can be found in Greek and Hebrew reference works.
Insofar as I couldn't read the biblical languages, I had to take his word for some of the things which he taught. In my view he established his trustworthiness to me (at that time) by his plain reading of verses that contradicted the orthodox view - what was written appeared to coincide with what he taught.
Since many things that he taught were based on these unverifiable (to me) definitions and interpretations, much of what I believed was based on an assumption that he was telling the truth about what he was teaching.
Anyone who says that they didn't follow the PFAL doctrine just because Wierwille taught it should, IMHO, reconsider in light of what I just wrote
Years later Martindale took over as primary teacher of TWI. Mostly he based his teachings on what Wierwille taught, but as time went on he added his own unverifiable definitions and interpretations.
When Martindale taught his new class, The Way of Abundance and Power to the cameras, he was in the midst of an "affair" that would eventually lead to a lawsuit and subsequently to his "dethronement".
I wondered how someone who was so immersed in deception could be in any position to teach the foundational truths to "the household", especially in light of sections like "The First Sin of Mankind" where he comes up with definitions of Hebrew words without any apparent source other than his own mind.
This doubt led me to begin examining Martindale's class, page by page. I found many, many, many errors. I began "throwing out" Martindalean doctrines one by one, not because Martindale sinned, but because the doctrines were not compatible with either the bible or the "keys" that Wierwille taught.
As I dug into Martindale's errors, I began to find similar errors in Wierwille's work. By this time I had made no decision to throw anything out beforehand, but to carefully examine what was taught, using Wierwille's own methodology. (At this time I had no knowledge of Wierwille's sins)
Eventually I found enough errors to undermine my faith that Wierwille's work was fundamentally sound. Later I checked out the CES website and was amzed to find the number of differences between CES and TWI, even though both used Wierwille's keys to letting the bible interpret itself.
After this I took a good hard look at the disagreements among ex-wayfers as to what "The Word" said and meant, then at the multitude of differences among Christian denominations as to what the will of God was...never mind the non-Christian religions out there.
I decided to "reset" my faith as it were, start over. This necessarily meant "throwing out" what I learned before. I wanted to begin anew, starting with being convinced that there was even a God, then moving on to more specific things.
After that I started finding out about Wierwille's lies, his sins, his untrustworthiness.
So, no, I didn't "throw out" anything because of Wierwille's sins.
I hope that is abundantly clear.
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sky4it
oakspear:
thats an incredibly sad story oak. I am somewhat amazed that you indicated that you or "we" were required to have a certain amount of sincerety or trust in things we didnt know. Everyone kind of wanted to give VPW the benefit of the doubt. He seemed like he was trying real hard.
I put his doctrine under the magnifying glass right away, picked up 15 credits of Greek at a Lutheran college, and found it woefully lacking. Still, it cost me a lot of time and effort for to dispell what he was saying wasnt simple to do. My own personal experience? Liberation from doctrine, is in my view something everyone needs. Doctrine must assist us in knowledge of God not restrict us. To know not everything, that is good; it keeps my relationship with God fresh.
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Oakspear
Well, the only sad part Sky, is that it took me so long to figger it out
:P-->
I agree with you that everybody wanted to give Wierwille the benefit of the doubt, maybe because we wanted what he claimed to have: "The Answers".
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excathedra
sometimes i feel like i've entered -- or live in -- the twilight zone
my hero, as a girl, was a relative who shared things with me that were awesome. he seemed like he knew everything in the whole world and he had a beautiful story or explanation for everything. he abused my little girl body and mind
same thing happened a few years later with wierwille
just because it's wrapped in a bible ministry doesn't change much for me
sorry
when my uncle died recently and i fell across his coffin, i didn't ask him how much truth he had taught me.... i asked him, "how could you have done this to me"?
oh well
hope this makes sense to the intellectuals or whatever you are
as oldies says, happy weekend one and all
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Catcup
Ex,
They just won't get it. They are too unwilling to face the stark reality of the raw hurt and irreparable damage their hero did when he abused you.
It hurts them too much to see your hurt.
It shatters their idol.
And that is the last thing they can tolerate.
But others of us understand.
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dmiller
Oldies, you must be hungry by now, after all these pages of "discussion". I just baked some brownies, Am using the best chocolate, extra sugar, going with the "sinfully" rich and creamy frosting, using extra eggs, and oh yes -- am adding 1 cup of dog poop to it as well, but it is just a small portion of the entire recipe, so it won't contaminate the whole batch.
If you believe your statement above, I'd like to serve you some home-made brownies.
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Catcup
Great point Dmiller!
C'mon, Oldies, take a bite!
Never mind the dog poop, just think of all those wonderful vitamins and minerals in the dairy products.... and of course, dmiller used all of the BEST POSSIBLE AVAILABLE ingredients...........
It won't hurt you...............
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Oakspear
dmiller:
Oldies will no doubt castigate most of us for "renouncing" your brownies based on your sins, while he retains the parts that "make sense" to him.
Might the phrase eat .... be appropriate at this time?
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sky4it
oak:
dmiller:
Oldies will no doubt castigate most of us for "renouncing" your brownies based on your sins, while he retains the parts that "make sense" to him.
humorous sentence oak
oak on the other hand would examine all the ingredients and ask why they should be mixed together, even if you left out the dog poop.
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Grizzy
mmmmmmmmm, the brownies at twig tasted really great! Well cept for the one Joe Blow got and he said his tasted like $h!t........
What's this really bad taste in my mouth as I drove home????????
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Oakspear
Sky:
I might even question the very existance of the brownies
:D-->
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excathedra
yeah but god told him he'd teach him to make brownies like they hadn't been made since....
and he looked outside and all he could was sugar falling from the sky
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Oakspear
The greatest cargoes of life come in on quiet brownies
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Oakspear
"Do you believe that I can heal your arm?"
"Yes, but I do not believe in your brownies"
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George Aar
Ever since "Waydale" I've had a dream. Not a big dream, just a little one.
My dream is that O.M. and his ilk would one day realize that some of the thousands of ex-Wayfers have maybe a smattering of logic on their side, and that maybe WayWorld wasn't any bastion of truth EVER.
Then, with their new-found outlook on life they could finally move out of their mother's basement and go out into the harsh light of day and take on the world as it really is.
Ah, probably not...
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Catcup
I would argue that because of the foreign ingredient, the brownies are no longer brownies...
They are $hitties...........
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