"We learned God's Word in TWI. Not everything we were taught is the truth, but what is truth, is truth, and is God's will for us to know and believe. There are some basic truths we learned in twi that are common Christian beliefs."
johniam,
If you take out VPs writings, how much of TWI do you think you have left?
and what are we guilting you out of with this agenda, j-am???? what, praytell?? overfond memories of your youth, perhaps??
so JUST how many people did loy-boy shed a tear for, huh?? I would drop the quoting of philosopher loy, j-am.. it doesn't exactly back up a solid argument.
nice swill, wattaklown -- same stuff from 6 months back. You oughta get a tv spot with your bright, original material...does the phrase "armchair quarterback" ring any bells?? Freud had nuttin on you that's for sure, "Doctor" wattaklown....
quote:Oldies, what is your "baby?" Mine is is God, Jesus Christ, the Gospel of salvation through Christ, love (and maybe a few others "basic truths".)
Now if one's "baby" (basic truths) amount to blindly espousing the teachings of one man/group - doctrines like the law of believing, four crucified, the six denials of Peter, mastubation is the original sin, or any other such doctrines/dogmas specific to VPW or TWI - then I just don't know what to tell them - except that as Christians I think they are missing the boat. It's not that these things are necessarily wrong, it's just that they hardly constitute "the baby" and some of these (along with a few others) could possibly be bathwater.
Again Oldies, what is your "baby"?
Goey, to answer your question, my baby is the same as your baby. But, when I make statements similar to saying that I saw and experienced "the baby" in twi-1, that's when I get the most hassles from some people, and responses like:
quote:... I was taught the Wuuuuuurd. I got mine, it doesn't matter how many were hurt." Geeze, what a j@ckfoot.
-and-
quote:So in other words, the ends justify the means. j@ckfoot.
-or-
quote:....and though what we were taught had a nugget of two of truth...our understanding has been so corrupted by the false teacher...by the leaven....as to become virtually useless.
Goey you said in a previous post that twi-1 was rotten to the core. I didn't see that, and what I'm saying is, I, and yes, WE (those I fellowshipped with and saw), got the baby in twi-1. I wasn't the only one there who experienced the baby. I think back and just can't believe that folks I fellowshipped with were just impersonating love, joy, peace, and all those goodies; that they weren't really real. So if you think I'm speaking for others here, yeah, that's what I'm doing, cause I witnessed it.
But I do "get it" that some folks experienced horrible things and therefore can't or don't want to remember anything about the goodies, if they experienced them at all. I agree with what GeorgeStGeorges said:
quote:Keep the Word that you've been taught. Keep the memories of good times in fellowship. But don't dismiss those who do not. What would TWI have to have done to you to make you renounce it all? That's what happened to CW and the others. See it from that perspective, and have some compassion. ...
I can only speak for myself, so I will speak for myself.
I have retained some of the doctrine I learned in TWI. A lot of it I chucked, or just relegated it to the "who cares?" file. At this stage in my life, I am much more concerned with living like someone that God would be proud to call His child, than worrying about every jot and tittle of Biblical accuracy.
However, even if I was completely following the doctrines and practices of TWI, I would not return to that organization. Why not? Because of the evil that they did as an organization, and because they have not repented of covering for their leaders.
Oldies, as we speak I am being badgered by someone preaching The Word. If you heard some of the glowing phrases about Christ's return in the letter I received, without hearing the rest of the letter, you would think they were inspired by God Himself. But coming from someone who perpetrated evil in my life, and continues to do so, I would rather hear such things from somebody else. Believe it, his motives in saying these things to me are not pure. Neither were Wierwille's motives. If you got something pure out of it, then thank God He was able to wrest something good out of something evil.
johniam, rationing my food because people are starving in India makes no sense, because my starving will not make them not starve. But where I can help, I try to help. Because my experience in TWI might help someone who got burned by that org, Gspot is my little bit of help.
WordWolf's replies in boldface and brackets as normal.]
quote:Originally posted by What The Hay:
quote:_YOU'RE CALLING HER A LIAR...._
Nah, I wouldn't say that about her or anybody else, but I would say the truth.
[Oldies called her a liar. He claimed he didn't. I explained how he even did it during his protestations that he did NOT. This quote from me was ripped from its context, and was NOT addressed to WTF. Doing this is as intellectually honest as using 1/2 a verse of Bible to claim that the Bible says "there is no God". ]
Your a bunch of actors (hypocrites) acting out and playing like you have honor integrity and faith when you have little or none at all.
[Considering this "analysis" comes from a person whose only demonstrated ability is to vilify anyone who shines a light on vpw's evil deeds, this doesn't concern me much. A neo-nazi would view me as "inferior" by his definition, but I would not be concerned about THAT, either. WTF has neither integrity, honour NOR a healthy form of "faith", and has projected his own weaknesses on those whose abilities he is unable to perceive, both by inclination, lack of experience and training, and lack of inborn talent. ]
On Oct. 17 Wordwolf says this regarding VPW:
quote:Not "EVERYTHING", but rather "SOME". SOME of his teachings were bad. SOME parts of his life were bad.
But then changes his tune real quick about VPW. Wooohoooooo... -->
[ And yet...he doesn't show a quote of me "changing my tune real quick about vpw. Can it be that the label he seeks to slap on me has no evidence to support it? Can it be there is a different reason other than objective truth to make such a claim about me? Does a bear sleep in the woods? --> ]
But here in lies the problem:
WAKE UP PEOPLE. VPW IS DEAD._ All the works he ever did have been over and done with for a very long time, both the works in his flesh and in his spirit. _ The winner mentality. _
As Word Wolf replies:
[...and yet...the damage lives on in the lives of the people who were hurt, the years that were lost, the webs of self-delusion some have been unable to shed..... Until THAT is all past, it's not "old news". ] _ The loser (victim) mentality. _
What is WordWolf talking about? He's talking about the victim mentality.
[Amazing how WTF can miss several paragraphs of my explanation and seize upon something isolated from its context to attempt to validate his point. He missed the discussion of 9/11, the wreck of the Andrew J. Barbieri ferry, and so on, to claim that discussing tragedies, evil actions and suffering can only be doneto b*tch and moan. He's back on the famous "Blame The Believer" (BTB) fallacy. Apparently I was right, and WTF WOULD have told Christopher Reeve to "suck it up" after his paralysis. He also missed my discussion of GOOD people and BAD people's legacies living on, for good or ill.]
I'd say all you got was a taste of life Rascal (and I'd say the same thing to others who are in the same boat) -- and life is the best teacher of all - not VPW or TWI. The only problem is life does not talk to you, it just sort of pushes you around. But each push is life saying, _"WAKE UP! There's something I want you to learn."_ If you learn life's lessons, you'll do well. If not, life will only continue to push you around.
There's a couple things people do about it though. Some just let life push them around. They "suck-it-up" (if you want to put it that way) and live life playing-it-safe - doing all the right things at the right time (acting pious and religious) but they never take any risks. HYPOCRITES!
Then others get angry and push back. Only problem is they push back against other people, whether it is their boss, their husband, their wife - or perhaps a ministry or some minister. HYPOCRITES!
Yeah well, life pushes all of us around. Some give up. Others fight. There's just a few who learn the lesson and decide to move on. Some welcome life pushing them around, but only a few. To these few, it means they need and want to learn something. They learn and move on.
[ In other words, when someone embezzles, plagiarizes, rapes, molests, and so on, chalk it up as a "learning experience", and move on. Above all, do NOT, repeat, do NOT, warn others who might suffer from exposure to evil men or evil deeds. Elie Wiesel has wasted his life! ]
Most however quit (there's a lot of people who quit TWI, but they aren't here discussing TWI, VPW or LCM - their just quiters) and then there are a few of you who only like to fight.
[ Again, you see people who "only like to fight." We see people who are adamant about exposing evil deeds kept hidden, which assists in the healing of some, and is information that PREVENTS the suffering of others. "In vain is the net set in sight of any bird." (Proverbs.) Then again, some people are SO determined to maintain their illusion of an idyllic Shangri-la that they must act wildly to defend it. Rather than simply avoid websites that expose the truth, they go out of their way to attempt to misrepresent personal testimony, re-conceal the evil deeds committed by some, and otherwise attempt to legitimize their delusions. To those few of you, I say, it's a free country. If you seek to embrace a lie or embrace slavery, that is your choice as an adult. However, you are NOT entitled to override our OWN liberties, and place blinders back on our eyes, and shackles on our wrists. Your rights end where ours begin. If that does not meet with your approval, do not come here and SEEK US OUT.]
If you don't learn life's lesson, you'll continue blaming others - VPW, TWI, LCM, or your job, your boss, and everything and everyone else for all the problems that life throws at you. The worst part of it is there are plenty of people just like you who live out their life hoping for some "big break" (or for some other spiritual guru) that will come along and solve all their problems. But if all your doing is fighting and blaming someone else - you still haven't learned life's lesson!
[Now, that's funny in a darkly ironic way. WTH wants to warn us about being victims to some spiritual guru offering simple answers to life with ONE hand, and exhorting us to return to an exposed spiritual guru who peddled simple answers with the OTHER hand. ]
quote:We learned God's Word in TWI. Not everything we were taught is the truth, but what is truth, is truth, and is God's will for us to know and believe. There are some basic truths we learned in twi that are common Christian beliefs.
So far, so good.
quote:And so I wonder why some folks find it wrong that some folks cling on to these truths, even though mindful of sins committed in twi.
What "basic truths?" And who are these "some folks" that say it's wrong to believe them? ...
quote:I think some folks think we who still believe these truths, should renounce them, because of the evil deeds of some in twi. Are folks like myself being selfish because we refuse to renounce our beliefs?
Same old stuff Oldies. Folks say one thing and you hear another. So far as I can tell, no one here has ever stated that TWI's evil deeds are cause for renouncing any of the "basic truths" of Christianity. Can you give one clear example where anyone has suggested that?
As you stated, "truth is truth". So "truth" from the mouth of an evildoer would still be "truth" - like in the case of many of the teachings of Wierewille/PFAL or Martindale/WAP. The moral character of the person speaking/teaching the truth is irrelevant to the truth itself. Wierwille's sex perversion has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead.
quote:I just don't get it, so I'd like to know if there are any biblical or logical viewpoints out there that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is something God expects of us? That we should renounce our beliefs because of the evils of twi?
Oldies, I think your argument amounts to little more than a strawman - either intentional (since you have been told this numerous times), or because you suffer from a case of chronic and possibly incurable selective hearing. You are arguing and complaing againt something that I think few if any at all have ever said.
No one has ever said that you should renounce your Christianity (basic truths) because of the evils of TWI/Wierwille/Martindale. Not even the atheists and agnostics here promote that kind of logic.
Now, some folks have said that because of Wierwille's "sins", (Adultery, plagairism, etc) that certain doctrines he taught may be suspect and need to be re-examined. Others have suggested that it may be helpful to throw it all out and start over - not in the sense of renouncing Christianity or "basic truths", (the baby) but in the sense of temporarily setting aside those things that were taught that are mostly specific or unique to our TWI experience, and then beginning anew - without bias and with the understanding that some things may end up being retained and others may end up being discarded.
Oldies, what is your "baby?" Mine is is God, Jesus Christ, the Gospel of salvation through Christ, love (and maybe a few others "basic truths".)
Now if one's "baby" (basic truths) amount to blindly espousing the teachings of one man/group - doctrines like the law of believing, four crucified, the six denials of Peter, mastubation is the original sin, or any other such doctrines/dogmas specific to VPW or TWI - then I just don't know what to tell them - except that as Christians I think they are missing the boat. It's not that these things are necessarily wrong, it's just that they hardly constitute "the baby" and some of these (along with a few others) could possibly be bathwater.
quote: And I want to continue to understand myself and my motives better, so that I don't get tricked by bad people anymore.
Well that is the part you got right Shaz. The reason you are struggling with the other parts (like a lot of people are) is because you haven't learned that you can't change other people, you can only change yourself.
The Japanese are aware of these three powers - the power of the sword, the power of the jewel, and the power of the mirror. The sword symbolizes the power of weapons (fighting). The jewel symbolizes the power of money. There is a degree of truth to the saying, "Remember the golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules."
The mirror symbolizes the power of self-knowledge. Self-knowledge, according to Japanese legend is the most treasured of the three. But when it comes to life pushing you around, most people rely on one or both of the first two powers.
But if they used the "power of the mirror" (the knowlege of self) they would ask, "Does this make sense?" All to often instead of trusting their inner wisdom most people go along with the crowd. They reason they do things is because everybody else does it. They conform rather than question. The reason they don't question is because the fear of being ostracised, the fear of standing out, the fear of criticism, the fear of ridicule, the fear of being an outcast.
It is that same fear, the fear of ostracism that causes people to conform to the crowd and not question commonly accepted opinions or popular trends. I see it here all the time. And it is the fear of being different that prevents most people from seeking new ways to solve their problems. That is why the Japanese value the power of the mirror the most, for it is only when we humans look into the mirror do we find the truth.
But "warning others about the bad people" rarely works because people for the most part aren't seeking the power of the mirror - the knowledge of self. Warning others about bad people is just another way of telling people they should "play it safe". The reason people say that is out of fear. You know, don't take any risks. You'll stand out from the crowd and be different from us. The problem with that is the fear of being different is what prevents people from seeking new ways to solve their problems - and the reason why people get stuck in the ruts of life. That goes for anything, be it career, money or relationships.
quote:Goey, to answer your question, my baby is the same as your baby. But, when I make statements similar to saying that I saw and experienced "the baby" in twi-1, that's when I get the most hassles from some people, and responses like:
... I was taught the Wuuuuuurd. I got mine, it doesn't matter how many were hurt." Geeze, what a j@ckfoot.
-and-
quote:So in other words, the ends justify the means. j@ckfoot.
-or-
quote:....and though what we were taught had a nugget of two of truth...our understanding has been so corrupted by the false teacher...by the leaven....as to become virtually useless.
(snip)
(Scroll up the page for the full post.)
As almost everyone here has no difficulty seeing,
Goey's "baby" and Oldies' "baby" are NOT the same.
The difference can be seen in ONE thing.
Goey considers the SOURCE of QUALITY education on God's Word
(THE BIBLE) to be insignificant.
If he's learning QUALITY, he doesn't care about the source.
If there's adulterations and error that reduce the efficacy of what
he's being taught,
or the teachers are utilizing a suspect framework designed from
deceptive practices and hiding a secret agenda,
Goey will split.
Goey considers the minimum requirements set out in the BIBLE as to
what a teacher of God is expected to say, do and teach as a
REQUIREMENT, and a PREREQUISITE before the teacher opens his mouth.
============
Oldies, on the other hand,
will view those same teachings as "suspect" or "inferior"
if offered completely independently of a framework containing
vpw, twi or pfal.
That's his privilege, and he's free to be prejudiced against
any other type of teaching all he wants.
It is NOT, however, the same thing Goey believes.
This is NOT news to Goey.
This is NOT news to WordWolf.
By now, this either IS or is NOT news to Oldiesman.
If it IS news to Oldiesman,
his posts and reading here have reflected a divorce from content
and deliberations contained here. He's retained NOTHING of substance
from years of posting.
(Compare that to JustThinking, who arrived within the past year and
has claimed considerable benefits from the things Oldies has not.)
That means Oldiesman has been intellectually dishonest and
disrespectful in most or all of his dealings here.
If it is NOT news to Oldiesman,
then Oldies knows full well there is a difference, and Oldies is
engaging in deliberate deceptions and lies in his posts.
What possible motive could there be for such a thing?
Oh, there's possibilities like deceiving the new arrivals who
come here for truth and help in healing, and things like that.
There's other possibilities involving a psychoanalysis of Oldies
worldview. Of course, they are possibilities, not a guarantee.
They seem the more likely explanations, at any rate.
===================
In comparing the posting history of Oldiesman and JustThinking
(who didn't ask me to drag him or her in this and I apologize if
this offends),
I am reminded of a saying I heard once.
It is said that, no matter how smooth the road, some lag behind,
and no matter how stony the path, some march to the front.
We all determine the rate at which we heal from our exposure to twi.
Some determine a zero rate, or a negative rate.
That is their right and privelege (in the US, anyway.)
They do NOT have the right to determine that others not heal,
quote:But "warning others about the bad people" rarely works because people for the most part aren't seeking the power of the mirror - the knowledge of self.
I'll agree with you in part. Sometimes it doesn't work. I have had people tell me that what I said warned them/informed them and they avoided trouble. Continuing, you said...
quote:Warning others about bad people is just another way of telling people they should "play it safe". The reason people say that is out of fear. You know, don't take any risks. You'll stand out from the crowd and be different from us. The problem with that is the fear of being different is what prevents people from seeking new ways to solve their problems - and the reason why people get stuck in the ruts of life. That goes for anything, be it career, money or relationships.
Now you've lost me. Avoiding getting entangled with evil = fear of standing out from the crowd???
Geez, my whole life has been one of standing out from the crowd. I have no idea what you think you're preaching here. And yeah, I fault the jerks for being jerks. And I'm plugging up the holes in my own psyche that allowed those jerks to stay in my life as long as they did.
One of those jerks was Wierwille, you know, the guy who taught that any two believers could make a marriage work, and the guy who taught that the woman would be blessed for standing by her man.
quote: And I want to continue to understand myself and my motives better, so that I don't get tricked by bad people anymore.
Well that is the part you got right Shaz. The reason you are struggling with the other parts (like a lot of people are) is because you haven't learned that you can't change other people, you can only change yourself.
[WTF has taken it upon himself to analyze Shaz' entire life based on a few posts. Amazing. Shaz KNOWS she can't change other people. That's clear from previous posts of hers, or if you speak to her for a few minutes face-to-face. She has learned many lessons in life. ]
The Japanese are aware of these three powers - the power of the sword, the power of the jewel, and the power of the mirror. The sword symbolizes the power of weapons (fighting). The jewel symbolizes the power of money. There is a degree of truth to the saying, "Remember the golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules."
The mirror symbolizes the power of self-knowledge. Self-knowledge, according to Japanese legend is the most treasured of the three. But when it comes to life pushing you around, most people rely on one or both of the first two powers.
But if they used the "power of the mirror" (the knowlege of self) they would ask, "Does this make sense?" All to often instead of trusting their inner wisdom most people go along with the crowd. They reason they do things is because everybody else does it. They conform rather than question. The reason they don't question is because the fear of being ostracised, the fear of standing out, the fear of criticism, the fear of ridicule, the fear of being an outcast.
[ Technically true of many people. ]
It is that same fear, the fear of ostracism that causes people to conform to the crowd and not question commonly accepted opinions or popular trends. I see it here all the time. _
[ Technically INcorrect of the majority of the posters here. To post here at all is to buck an establishment. Further, the amount of bickering seen on some relatively minor points demonstrates the rather individualistic nature of posters here, MOST of whom openly question authority ALL THE TIME. That was a necessary part of their growth after leaving twi, you see. Of course, limiting your exposure to a few threads defending vpw is HARDLY the best way to get an INFORMED OPINION on posters. We had brief arrivals with less strident agendas than you who learned a lot more in less time, because they did not limit themselves so. ]
And it is the fear of being different that prevents most people from seeking new ways to solve their problems._ That is why the Japanese value the power of the mirror the most, for it is only when we humans look into the mirror do we find the truth.
But "warning others about the bad people" rarely works because people for the most part aren't seeking the power of the mirror - the knowledge of self.
[ If you think that issuing warnings about evil is useless, you have NO purpose at the GSC. If YOU are correct, then NOBODY's life was EVER changed from the information offered here, NOBODY avoided twi because of a wealth of information here and all over the internet, warning about them. It would not surprise me to hear you believe this, but it's an untenable belief for most of us. That requires a very large "leap of faith". ]
Warning others about bad people is just another way of telling people they should "play it safe".
[Warning others about bad people is considered a necessary part of any HEALTHY society. That's why GOD instituted a practice where certain people are delegated to perform EXACTLY THAT FUNCTION. If you think it's such a futile exercise, take it to GOD ALMIGHTY and tell him that you find the appointment of PROPHETS to have been a wasteful exercise for well over 20 centuries, thru the entire Old and New Testament time periods. You HAVE been reading your Bible, right? There's prophets ALL OVER IT. ]
The reason people say that is out of fear.
["How long halt you between two opinions? If the LORD is God, then follow Him, if Baal is God, then follow him." (I Kings 17.) According to you, Elijah the Tishbite must have been a coward. Interestingly enough, vpw taught that one of the most important traits FOR a prophet to have, one that is REQUIRED for prophets to have, is COURAGE. Prophets face up to the rest of the people as a WHOLE, and must disagree with them, telling them bad news. So, vpw would disagree with your statement about people who issue warnings. As you also see, I'm not afraid to learn from anything he taught, which disproves the blind labels you seek to slap on me. ]
You know, don't take any risks. You'll stand out from the crowd and be different from us.
[ "Don't get involved with that Jim Jones guy. He's not a true servant of God. Don't get involved with that 'Heaven's Gate' group, they're not in line with God." For the people who heeded those warnings, they got to live. For the people who "bucked the crowd" and went to Jonestown or the Heaven's Gate compound, "standing out from the crowd" meant ingesting poison and dying. ]
The problem with that is the fear of being different is what prevents people from seeking new ways to solve their problems - and the reason why people get stuck in the ruts of life. That goes for anything, be it career, money or relationships.
[ Some people are afraid of stepping out from behind the twi framework and seeing if God really does bless people more outside that framework. I agree that refusal to change, for reasons of fear, is NOT healthy and can waste a life.]
[Of course, some respond to a soft word of reproof, and some to a thousand stripes. That is their own choice. ]
I asked earlier "and what are we guilting you out of with this agenda, j-am???? what, praytell?? overfond memories of your youth, perhaps??"
well, OM??? what is he being guilted out of???
speak up, I say, boy, speak up -- we can't hear your head rattle, speak up -- WHAt is this agenda he is speaking of?? I see no agenda -- what "fraud"(j-am's word) are we foisting on him with our alleged "guilt"?? still waiting, OM............ --> --> --> -->
Why, thank you, WW! Yeah, been around da block, learned a few things the hard way unfortunately, and heaven help my boyfriend, 'cuz I don't take no caca from no one no more!
Looks like wtf oldies and j-am are going to have a 3 some. All they need is there old friend mike.
Boy what a sad life to have to be validated by anyone of them.
Oldies you have called many liares about what happen to them. You have said you would go back to twi if you didn't have to drive and not share of your money. And you will say where. And I say why waste my time going back and read and paste to show you. You will just call me a liar and that's not what you ment
I say you have never left. You are still stuck in the good times of taking pfal at a camp.
Oldies there is a freedom from all of it if you want it.
Does it go something like the blind lead the blind and they both fall somewhere. You don't have to be blind and keep such creepy company. Come to freedom the peace is unblieveable.
quote: I asked earlier "and what are we guilting you out of with this agenda, j-am???? what, praytell?? overfond memories of your youth, perhaps??"
You and some of the others are trying to make us feel ashamed (guilty) because we still value some of VPs teachings. You have the same 'we're the only ones who are right' mentality that you accuse TWI of.
One more thing. Someone said something about issuing warnings. Nothing wrong with issuing warnings. Jesus did it. Sometimes he did it because the evil people were trying to bug him and discredit him; other times he did it just to make a point, but if your warning is credible you don't need to slander or insult anyone. Are we adults? Or are we Angelica on 'Rugrats'?
Oldies said he thought some people may be throwing the baby out with the bath water and some of you want to 'stone him to death' verbally. Not very credible.
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JustThinking
Oldies original quote:
"We learned God's Word in TWI. Not everything we were taught is the truth, but what is truth, is truth, and is God's will for us to know and believe. There are some basic truths we learned in twi that are common Christian beliefs."
johniam,
If you take out VPs writings, how much of TWI do you think you have left?
JT
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alfakat
and what are we guilting you out of with this agenda, j-am???? what, praytell?? overfond memories of your youth, perhaps??
so JUST how many people did loy-boy shed a tear for, huh?? I would drop the quoting of philosopher loy, j-am.. it doesn't exactly back up a solid argument.
nice swill, wattaklown -- same stuff from 6 months back. You oughta get a tv spot with your bright, original material...does the phrase "armchair quarterback" ring any bells?? Freud had nuttin on you that's for sure, "Doctor" wattaklown....
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oldiesman
Thanks for the support, Johniam and What The Hay.
Goey:
Goey, to answer your question, my baby is the same as your baby. But, when I make statements similar to saying that I saw and experienced "the baby" in twi-1, that's when I get the most hassles from some people, and responses like:-and-
-or-
Goey you said in a previous post that twi-1 was rotten to the core. I didn't see that, and what I'm saying is, I, and yes, WE (those I fellowshipped with and saw), got the baby in twi-1. I wasn't the only one there who experienced the baby. I think back and just can't believe that folks I fellowshipped with were just impersonating love, joy, peace, and all those goodies; that they weren't really real. So if you think I'm speaking for others here, yeah, that's what I'm doing, cause I witnessed it.
But I do "get it" that some folks experienced horrible things and therefore can't or don't want to remember anything about the goodies, if they experienced them at all. I agree with what GeorgeStGeorges said:
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CoolWaters
OM,
You are hardened.
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shazdancer
Oldies,
I can only speak for myself, so I will speak for myself.
I have retained some of the doctrine I learned in TWI. A lot of it I chucked, or just relegated it to the "who cares?" file. At this stage in my life, I am much more concerned with living like someone that God would be proud to call His child, than worrying about every jot and tittle of Biblical accuracy.
However, even if I was completely following the doctrines and practices of TWI, I would not return to that organization. Why not? Because of the evil that they did as an organization, and because they have not repented of covering for their leaders.
Oldies, as we speak I am being badgered by someone preaching The Word. If you heard some of the glowing phrases about Christ's return in the letter I received, without hearing the rest of the letter, you would think they were inspired by God Himself. But coming from someone who perpetrated evil in my life, and continues to do so, I would rather hear such things from somebody else. Believe it, his motives in saying these things to me are not pure. Neither were Wierwille's motives. If you got something pure out of it, then thank God He was able to wrest something good out of something evil.
johniam, rationing my food because people are starving in India makes no sense, because my starving will not make them not starve. But where I can help, I try to help. Because my experience in TWI might help someone who got burned by that org, Gspot is my little bit of help.
Shaz
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JustThinking
I have learned about TWI's real behavior here but not to hate them. That, imo, is a real compliment to those who were here and helped me when I left.
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WordWolf
True enough.
However,
I DID find at least one thread where he called her a liar
outright.
Check out the "If Trinitarians are so bad" thread I bumped,
page 8.
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WordWolf
WTH's posts,
WordWolf's replies in boldface and brackets as normal.]
[Now, that's funny in a darkly ironic way. WTH wants to warn us about being victims to some spiritual guru offering simple answers to life with ONE hand, and exhorting us to return to an exposed spiritual guru who peddled simple answers with the OTHER hand. ]
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WordWolf
This was what Goey said about his "baby".
In context and its entirety, page 1.
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What The Hay
Well that is the part you got right Shaz. The reason you are struggling with the other parts (like a lot of people are) is because you haven't learned that you can't change other people, you can only change yourself.
The Japanese are aware of these three powers - the power of the sword, the power of the jewel, and the power of the mirror. The sword symbolizes the power of weapons (fighting). The jewel symbolizes the power of money. There is a degree of truth to the saying, "Remember the golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules."
The mirror symbolizes the power of self-knowledge. Self-knowledge, according to Japanese legend is the most treasured of the three. But when it comes to life pushing you around, most people rely on one or both of the first two powers.
But if they used the "power of the mirror" (the knowlege of self) they would ask, "Does this make sense?" All to often instead of trusting their inner wisdom most people go along with the crowd. They reason they do things is because everybody else does it. They conform rather than question. The reason they don't question is because the fear of being ostracised, the fear of standing out, the fear of criticism, the fear of ridicule, the fear of being an outcast.
It is that same fear, the fear of ostracism that causes people to conform to the crowd and not question commonly accepted opinions or popular trends. I see it here all the time. And it is the fear of being different that prevents most people from seeking new ways to solve their problems. That is why the Japanese value the power of the mirror the most, for it is only when we humans look into the mirror do we find the truth.
But "warning others about the bad people" rarely works because people for the most part aren't seeking the power of the mirror - the knowledge of self. Warning others about bad people is just another way of telling people they should "play it safe". The reason people say that is out of fear. You know, don't take any risks. You'll stand out from the crowd and be different from us. The problem with that is the fear of being different is what prevents people from seeking new ways to solve their problems - and the reason why people get stuck in the ruts of life. That goes for anything, be it career, money or relationships.
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WordWolf
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shazdancer
WTH, you said
I'll agree with you in part. Sometimes it doesn't work. I have had people tell me that what I said warned them/informed them and they avoided trouble. Continuing, you said... Now you've lost me. Avoiding getting entangled with evil = fear of standing out from the crowd???Geez, my whole life has been one of standing out from the crowd. I have no idea what you think you're preaching here. And yeah, I fault the jerks for being jerks. And I'm plugging up the holes in my own psyche that allowed those jerks to stay in my life as long as they did.
One of those jerks was Wierwille, you know, the guy who taught that any two believers could make a marriage work, and the guy who taught that the woman would be blessed for standing by her man.
Shaz
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WordWolf
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oldiesman
What The Hay, thanks for your posts, you've got wisdom and understanding ...
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WordWolf
*snickers*
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rascal
Notice a pattern do you ww?
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rascal
It is chilling to see where adherance to this man and his doctrines eventually leads one.
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oldiesman
Words of Wisdom from Brother Johniam
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alfakat
wisdom,schmisdom...
I asked earlier "and what are we guilting you out of with this agenda, j-am???? what, praytell?? overfond memories of your youth, perhaps??"
well, OM??? what is he being guilted out of???
speak up, I say, boy, speak up -- we can't hear your head rattle, speak up -- WHAt is this agenda he is speaking of?? I see no agenda -- what "fraud"(j-am's word) are we foisting on him with our alleged "guilt"?? still waiting, OM............
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shazdancer
Why, thank you, WW! Yeah, been around da block, learned a few things the hard way unfortunately, and heaven help my boyfriend, 'cuz I don't take no caca from no one no more!
Shaz
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Danny
Looks like wtf oldies and j-am are going to have a 3 some. All they need is there old friend mike.
Boy what a sad life to have to be validated by anyone of them.
Oldies you have called many liares about what happen to them. You have said you would go back to twi if you didn't have to drive and not share of your money. And you will say where. And I say why waste my time going back and read and paste to show you. You will just call me a liar and that's not what you ment
I say you have never left. You are still stuck in the good times of taking pfal at a camp.
Oldies there is a freedom from all of it if you want it.
Does it go something like the blind lead the blind and they both fall somewhere. You don't have to be blind and keep such creepy company. Come to freedom the peace is unblieveable.
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WordWolf
Oh, he's been checking in.
Who do you think e-mailed WTH and told him to
start posting again?
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johniam
Alf:
quote: I asked earlier "and what are we guilting you out of with this agenda, j-am???? what, praytell?? overfond memories of your youth, perhaps??"
You and some of the others are trying to make us feel ashamed (guilty) because we still value some of VPs teachings. You have the same 'we're the only ones who are right' mentality that you accuse TWI of.
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johniam
One more thing. Someone said something about issuing warnings. Nothing wrong with issuing warnings. Jesus did it. Sometimes he did it because the evil people were trying to bug him and discredit him; other times he did it just to make a point, but if your warning is credible you don't need to slander or insult anyone. Are we adults? Or are we Angelica on 'Rugrats'?
Oldies said he thought some people may be throwing the baby out with the bath water and some of you want to 'stone him to death' verbally. Not very credible.
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