No doubt you think so....and it is your perogative....I do not expect to change your mind.
It becomes our business however, when you misstate others positions.......when you find it necessaary to assault others character and try to cast doubt on our credibility in order to make it appear that your perspective has merit.
I will consider your view point when you can make observations that don`t require everyone else to be liars in order for your pov to stand up under scrutiny.
WTH ...I guess that we just haven`t ever been on the same page....you not *getting it* does not negate the importance....sorry...
The fruit in that *dead* man`s life brands him and his ministry...and indicates directly the amount of credence or respect his *works* or ministry is due....damn right we are focusing on the results...sorry if this makes you uncomfortable....but there is not a thing wrong with us examining the fruit in order to judge the reliability of ythe man.... galations exhorts us to do so...and the likes of you or oldies niether one are going to get us to ignore the instructions given regarding a man such as wierwille.
His *works* are no more to be trusted than he was.
my, my, my, how many errors can we have! tsk, tsk...
nobody has raised the issue of "perfection", wattaklown, 'cept U!! nice straw man, dude... did you get him with the klown suit???
perfection is one thing, UNREPENTANT sin is another... can you understand that, bub??? i think not, because it has been brought to your attention in the past and you have blown right by it...
why don't you come back when you get the difference between the two... go give Mike a call or somethin'...
quote:But just remember this - Whenever you represent folks as saying that "everything" that VPW taught was bad/wrong because of his sins - know for a fact that you are misrepresenting and lying about the truth of what is really being said.
Goey, yes, this is how I read what some folks are saying when they talk about the Leaven Principle as it relates to twi. I think you're misstating what the Leaven Principle means and what folks think about it.
Here's what Excathedra quoted that article said:
quote: The Leaven Principle speaks of the fact that a little bit of one thing, though mixed with a much larger amount of something else, changes the nature of the whole. A little bit of bad mixed with a lot of good tends to_ make the whole thing bad._
THAT is the Leaven Principle,
[That IS The Leaven Principle. Do you know how little the amount of CYANIDE it took to turn the "Jonestown koolaid" (flavoraid) from a refreshing drink into a deadly poison? Not a lot. Probably didn't affect the taste, even. Take the ventilation system of a skyscraper, with ionized, filtered air. Clean and pure. Introduce a TINY amount of SARIN to the air, and the people will all suddenly drop dead. Why? Because when something pure has small amounts of something DANGEROUS and DEADLY added to it, adulterating its contents, the entire substance is compromised. Would you be willing to drink a liter of spring water that had a 1/2 ounce of arsenic added? If so, do so in the lobby of the hospital, or you'll never make it in time. ]
[bTW, "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump" is a DIRECT QUOTE FROM THE BIBLE. Do you truly feel comfortable arguing AGAINST A VERSE OF GOD'S WORD? ]
the baby is tainted/spoiled/no good. I think some folks are so angry and disappointed at VPW because of his transgressions, they've thrown out the baby with the bathwater because, as Pat described it, "most of the time, the crap is so integral in the baby so that even though you have thrown out the bath water, you still have a crap filled baby."
=============
Do you really believe some folks would have the problems they do with twi, had Wierwille lived a devout life? Let's take all the spin away, and answer that one question.
[ Another trick question, which contained more spin in its phrasing. If vpw had lived a devout life, there would not have BEEN the "problems" in twi, so there would be little to object to. If he wasn't a molester and rapist, there would be no molestations and rapes to object to. Men representing God are supposed to conduct themselves far above the molesting/raping level. If he had been honest about "his" sources and did not plagiarize in a prideful attempt to inflate his image into some superhuman Teacher, there would BE no criminal action to object to there. Fraud is a felony, in case you didn't know. If vpw had actually conducted himself in a manner at least above the minimum threshold established by God Almighty in His Word, I expect there would be far fewer doctrinal errors, and a multitude less of practical errors. ]
Some folks may not say outright they believe "everything" about twi was bad, but, they may just as well say it, because that's the way I read their writings. That's why, when I bring up some "good things" about twi-1, why do some folks get so angry and defensive and engage in sarcasm, namecalling and put-downs? I think because they don't really care what good happened and don't want to hear any of it because in their mind, it doesn't matter what good existed. To them, the evil is the only thing that has any real meaning.
I don't think I am misrepresenting and lying about those who think this way. It appears obvious to me by the way some people react to what I have to say that this is the way of things.
[Has everyone besides Oldies, WTF and the other wierwillites noticed that the REST of us have had quite civil discussions on MANY threads, where we discussed good times as well as bad, healings as well as harmings, blessings as well as curses, helps as much as hurts? Most of us can discuss the good and bad civilly and mostly reasonably. That's because we don't pretend that experiences survived by others are lies. Do some recount suffering? Yes. Do some recount blessings? Yes. Does either get challenged on it? Well, not unless Oldiesman is there to suggest, intimate or outright call a survivor a liar, fake or fraud. So, everyone ELSE here has a genuine representation of their thoughts. If Oldies was less zealous in his drive to silence the testimony of some, he'd find this place would be a lot less contentious for him. ]
quote:[bTW, "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump" is a DIRECT QUOTE FROM THE BIBLE. Do you truly feel comfortable arguing AGAINST A VERSE OF GOD'S WORD? ]
Wordwolf, I'm not arguing against it, but I mentioned in a previous statement that I thought the verse was being misapplied by some. I read it in context as a present tense warning to remove those who cause trouble in the church.
quote:If Oldies was less zealous in his drive to silence the testimony of some, he'd find this place would be a lot less contentious for him. ]
The way I see it, I get hassled so much because I don't think like some others. Period.
Wordwolf, if you read attempts by me to silence personal testimonies, please offer examples of same.
No, j@ckfoot, you get hassled so much because you keep on insisting that in your world it was always all daisies and goodness and light and "whatever could all o' y'all be talkin' about? there were never problems!" and you keep on discounting the experiences of others and you keep on calling them liars! Idjit!
If you wouldn't insist on doing that no one (or hardly anyone) would hassle you!
quote:I do not believe that a man of the flesh as wierwille was proven to be....could be trusted to accuratly represent the things of the spirit
Perhaps that's because you (and even others) prefer to mind the things of the flesh and not the things of the spirit
[No, that's because God's Word clearly marks the standard a man of God is supposed to live up to. One supposed man of God miserably failed to live up to it, and ruined some people's lives. It is not ungodly to use standards given by God for the offices under God to determine if the officeholder is godly. To NEGLECT to do that for any reason- like "but I learned so much from him!" is to place CARNAL views before what God SAID to do. ]
- and I am especially refering to those who really love to go around wearing the "minister" tag in the Christian church and wish to be recognized as one. The apostle Paul wasn't perfect even after he was born again. That is why Galatians 4:13,14 says...
_Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
_
Some have gone so far as to remark that the apostle Paul was a "changed man" after being born again - implying he never made any mistakes after he was born again.
[ Paul WAS a changed man. Haven't you read ANYTHING? This disingenuous position of yours- that Paul was either carnal or perfect- is a dodge and a strawman. NOBODY expected PAUL to be PERFECT, EITHER. WHat they expected of PAUL, and PETER, and TIMOTHY, and PHILEMON, and any other MAN OF GOD, was that they meet or exceed the minimum standards of conduct established by God. There are no accounts of Paul raping his way thru the churches on his journies. There's no record of Paul loving luxuries. There's no record of Paul lying and defrauding people. Do you know why? It was NOT because Paul was perfect. We all KNOW Paul was not perfect. PAUL knew PAUL was not perfect. However, Paul exceeded the minimum standards of behaviour and codes of conduct written by GOD, and Paul was zealous to seek perfection. Paul was not perfect, but he had a batting average in the acceptable range. ]
That isn't the testimony of God's Word. The truth is the apostle Paul never let the infirmites of his flesh bug him or keep him from teaching the truth of God's Word [i'm sure the acts of his flesh really bugged the self-righteous Pharisees though. They always seem to come around whenever someone is speaking the truth of God's Word] as he kept preaching the gospel despite the infirmities of his flesh.
[Ooooo-that's supposed to be a clever "dig" at the rest of us-to depict us as self-righteous and as Pharisees. Did anyone feel a sting from that one? What's next-claiming I'm a lousy clogdancer? ]
I'll never understand why people want to bring up the works of a dead minister - someone who died nearly 20 years ago.
People bring up the works of godly men centuries after they die, as examples and figures to emulate. Just counting modern times, I'd have loved to have learned under BG Leonard for a week, or George Mueller for a week. These men are shining examples of men who loved God, made a difference, and exceeded the standards established by GOD.]
[ On the other hand, names like Caligula, Lucretia Borgia, and Benito Mussolini come down thru the decades and centuries as well. Charles Manson is safely behind bars-but everyone in the US knows his name. Why? What he did is old news......HOWEVER, each has set his own life as an example of the evils that men do-exemplars of cruelty and insanity. People still talk about Manson and Mussolini, in particular, depending on where you go, because THE EVIL THAT THEY DID STILL AFFECTS SOME PEOPLE. It's been a few years since the 9/11 attacks. Thousands of people died-in the Twin Towers, in the Pentagon, in the planes, in a field in Pennsylvania ("let's roll".) A few days ago marked the one-year anniversary of a horrible disaster involving a Staten Island Ferry. The pilot made an error in judgement, and his medication put him to sleep-he collapsed onto the steering wheel while the ferry was at speed. His supervisor made an error of judgement-only the pilot was in the control cabin, when 3 people should be there. The ferry crashed into the dock, and the side of the boat was sheered away. Several people were killed, several lost limbs. (The pilot went straight home and attempted suicide.) Now, with the first anniversary passing, you might say that the survivors should "just get over it", after all, it's "in the past". However, some haven't gotten over losing loved ones, or limbs. So, they haven't stopped talking about it. Some people still bring it up because they want the entire ferry system reformed to prevent the further suffering of others. From the sound of things, a year after Christopher Reeve was thrown from his horse, you would have told him to suck it up. ]
I've come to realize it's because it makes _them_ (their flesh) look real big and spiritual and important both to themselves and to others - it really puffs up their ego. The result is they stir up other peoples emotions (the flesh) for the purpose of getting others to think evil, to stir up strife, hatred and bitterness among the brethren. Doesn't the Word of God say these are also the works of the flesh? What is amazing to realize it is always these acts that end up manifested - not the dead works of a dead VPW or any other minister you happen to dislike - whether they are dead or alive!
[ Oh-you're privy to the 955-99% of our lives when we are NOT on this messageboard? You know NOTHING about the works we accomplish elsewhere. This characterization only serves to try to pretend there's another reason to EXPOSE CORRUPTION, other than TO EXPOSE THE CORRUPTION. ]
_WAKE UP PEOPLE. VPW IS DEAD._ All the works he ever did have been over and done with for a very long time, both the works in his flesh and in his spirit.
[...and yet...the damage lives on in the lives of the people who were hurt, the years that were lost, the webs of self-delusion some have been unable to shed..... Until THAT is all past, it's not "old news". ]
Certainly you don't need me or anyone else to remind you of you it. But if your only out to prove to others that your the spiritual top dog, the least you could do is quit minding his work and start minding your own.
[Nobody is here to SHOW OFF. (Well, no one EXPOSING THE CORRUPTION OF VPW IS HERE TO SHOW OFF, anyway. We are here to EXPOSE CORRUPTION, inform, interact, and heal. Again, you know nothing of what we do when we're not here. ]
Time is very short!
[ All the more reason to free your mind of self-defeating, destructive habit-patterns, and see things as they are. ]
quote:No, j@ckfoot, you get hassled so much because you keep on insisting that in your world it was always all daisies and goodness and light and "whatever could all o' y'all be talkin' about? there were never problems!" and you keep on discounting the experiences of others and you keep on calling them liars! Idjit!
When did I ever write that:
(1) in my world it was always all daisies and goodness and light;
(2) there were never problems;
(3) the experiences of others don't count;
(4) others are liars?
You are putting words in my mouth, and your namecalling is unnecessary.
quote:I'll never understand why people want to bring up the works of a dead minister - someone who died nearly 20 years ago. I've come to realize it's because it makes them (their flesh) look real big and spiritual and important both to themselves and to others - it really puffs up their ego. The result is they stir up other peoples emotions (the flesh) for the purpose of getting others to think evil, to stir up strife, hatred and bitterness among the brethren.
quote:[ You're claiming her personal testimony is false. YOU'RE CALLING HER A LIAR. ]
When did I say her personal testimony was false? Her personal testimony is her personal testimony. How can I claim it's false if I wasn't there to witness it for myself? If that's what she said happened to her, that's her testimony that happened to her.
I will say that I don't believe everything I read on the internet, that's true. But that's a far cry from calling someone a liar.
Do you believe everything you read on the internet?
You sure did Oldies...and you ALSO said that I was full of crap too....though not quite the words y-o-u-a-r-e-a-l-i-a-r...it amounts to the same thing when refering to what I related.
I HAVE called you a false accuser, which is exactly what you are doing right now."
WordWolf replied:
"You're claiming her personal testimony is false. YOU'RE CALLING HER A LIAR."
Oldies replied to that:
"When did I say her personal testimony is false?..."
WordWolf replies again.....
[Her personal testimony IS what she stated. It includes an indictment and accusation of wrongdoing by that evil ringleader, vpw. You claim her "accusation" is "false", which means that you're saying her "personal testimony"-which is the body of her accusation and indictment of wrongdoing-is not true. You're saying that her "accusation" is not "true". YOU'RE CALLING HER A LIAR. You know, most humans don't have these sorts of problems, because they don't torture the English language and strive to ascribe alternate meanings to words to fit their convenience. YOU JUST CALLED RASCAL A LIAR AGAIN, in the process of claiming you didn't. ]
You called me a liar oldies...on more than one occasion...and you did others as well...even after there was cooberating testimoney.
It is not to your credit ...that you have to accuse so many of lying in order for you to be able to maintain and defend your posistion.
Getting back to the topic at hand...I don`t think that one CAN get back on track spiritually without renouncing twi and the teachings of a man of the flesh....
As he was a wolf in sheeps clothing...that is, he was a predator that DISGUISED himself as one of the flock in order to get close enough to devour some of us....EVERYTHING he taught must be reexamined...it is the only spiritual;ly healthy choice....else you spend the rest of your life stumbling in the darkness of the teachings of a false minister.
Again it doesn`t hurt me....but when you try to portray true accounts as lies in order to maintain the facade of respectability...you are crossing the line and making it our business.
quote:But just remember this - Whenever you represent folks as saying that "everything" that VPW taught was bad/wrong because of his sins - know for a fact that you are misrepresenting and lying about the truth of what is really being said.
Goey, yes, this is how I read what some folks are saying when they talk about the Leaven Principle as it relates to twi. I think you're misstating what the Leaven Principle means and what folks think about it.
Stop the spin Oldies. I was not referring to the intprepretaion of the "Leaven Princple". I said you are dishonest/lying when you represent others as saying that "everything" that VPW taught was bad because of his sins. Address what I actually say Oldies and not what you twist it to imply.
quote:I think some folks are so angry and disappointed at VPW because of his transgressions, they've thrown out the baby with the bathwater because, as Pat described it, "most of the time, the crap is so integral in the baby so that even though you have thrown out the bath water, you still have a crap filled baby."
I don't think you ever answered me previously about what your baby is. Are you afraid or ashamed to answer. One thing I doubt, is I doubt that your baby is God's Word. I also doubt that is it the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My best guess is that your "baby" is PFAL, the teachings of VPW, and glorification of him as your teacher. This would certainly explain why you whitewash VPW's errors and behavior with all of your "yes buts".
Another thing is prettly clear to me, that is that you have very little knowledge or feel for the scriptures themeselves. You almost never use the Bible/scripture to make a point. Interesting for someone who is concerned about people abandoning "The Word". -- For example, you say I missapplied the "Leaven Principle" yet you offer no Biblical exposition as to why. Why not?
quote:Do you really believe some folks would have the problems they do with twi, had Wierwille lived a devout life? Let's take all the spin away, and answer that one question.
If VPW had lead a devout life, he would not have plagairized Bullinger, Stiles and others. Therefore there would have been no PFAL and therefore no TWI. So the answer is is no.
quote:Some folks may not say outright they believe "everything" about twi was bad, but, they may just as well say it, because that's the way I read their writings.
I see you have now changed "everything in TWI was bad because if VPW sins" to just "everything was bad" - omitting the "because of his sins part". You know that changes the argument don't you - of course you do. It was intentional on your part or very sloppy. So which one is it Oldies?
1. Are "some" folks are saying that "everything" in TWI was bad. or
2. Are "some" folks are saying that "everything" in TWI was bad because of VPW sins.
Which one is it Oldies, and who are these "some folks"? Lets have some names and some exmples. Quote what they said and then show how it means either of the above? You can't do it can you? That's why you probably won't even try. Your conscience has been seared.
Oldies, it is dispicable how you intentionally misrepresent people, whitewash sin and evil, and defend the indefensible.
quote: That's why, when I bring up some "good things" about twi-1, why do some folks get so angry and defensive and engage in sarcasm, namecalling and put-downs?
If you were actually trying to bring some balance to the discussion it wouldn't be a problem. But it seems pretty clear your agenda to simply to whitewash the truth and glorify TWI-1 and VPW. IMO, you are spirtually caustic, intellectually dishonest, generally uncaring, and only here to defend VPW and your precious TWI-1. That is why folks engage in sarcasm, and put-downs Oldies.
quote:I think because they don't really care what good happened and don't want to hear any of it because in their mind, it doesn't matter what good existed. To them, the evil is the only thing that has any real meaning.
Oh, I doubt that Oldies. You think in black and white most of the time. You probably think like that because of your extreme bias and adoration of VPW/TWI-1 as viewed through your rose colored glasses. If someone mentions the bad - you presume that they deny the good and feel compelled to point it out. You project your own B & W thinking upon others. You deny the evil for the most part and only really admit the good stuff. So you project the opposite upon others. It does not make for good discussion.
quote:I don't think I am misrepresenting and lying about those who think this way.
Of course you don't. - I am sure you have it all justified in your mind.
quote:It appears obvious to me by the way some people react to what I have to say that this is the way of things.
If I were you, I would think about that statment - it's really pretty ignorant and not even close to the real reason "some" folks react to you the way they do.
Edited by Goey
Nah, I wouldn't say that about her or anybody else, but I would say the truth. Your a bunch of actors [hypocrites] acting out and playing like you have honor integrity and faith when you have little or none at all.
On Oct. 17 Wordwolf says this regarding VPW:
quote:Not "EVERYTHING", but rather "SOME". SOME of his teachings were bad. SOME parts of his life were bad.
But then changes his tune real quick about VPW. Wooohoooooo... -->
But here in lies the problem:
WAKE UP PEOPLE. VPW IS DEAD._ All the works he ever did have been over and done with for a very long time, both the works in his flesh and in his spirit. The winner mentality.
As Word Wolf replies:
[...and yet...the damage lives on in the lives of the people who were hurt, the years that were lost, the webs of self-delusion some have been unable to shed..... Until THAT is all past, it's not "old news". ] The loser (victim) mentality.
What is WordWolf talking about? He's talking about the victim mentality.
I'd say all you got was a taste of life Rascal (and I'd say the same thing to others who are in the same boat) -- and life is the best teacher of all - not VPW or TWI. The only problem is life does not talk to you, it just sort of pushes you around. But each push is life saying, "WAKE UP! There's something I want you to learn." If you learn life's lessons, you'll do well. If not, life will only continue to push you around.
There's a couple things people do about it though. Some just let life push them around. They "suck-it-up" (if you want to put it that way) and live life playing-it-safe - doing all the right things at the right time (acting pious and religious) but they never take any risks. HYPOCRITES!
Then others get angry and push back. Only problem is they push back against other people, whether it is their boss, their husband, their wife - or perhaps a ministry or some minister. HYPOCRITES!
Yeah well, life pushes all of us around. Some give up. Others fight. There's just a few who learn the lesson and decide to move on. Some welcome life pushing them around, but only a few. To these few, it means they need and want to learn something. They learn and move on.
Most however quit (there's a lot of people who quit TWI, but they aren't here discussing TWI, VPW or LCM - their just quiters) and then there are a few of you who only like to fight.
If you don't learn life's lesson, you'll continue blaming others - VPW, TWI, LCM, or your job, your boss, and everything and everyone else for all the problems that life throws at you. The worst part of it is there are plenty of people just like you who live out their life hoping for some "big break" (or for some other spiritual guru) that will come along and solve all their problems. But if all your doing is fighting and blaming someone else - you still haven't learned life's lesson!
Yup, WTH, I've been pushed around by life a bit. Here's what I found...
I was tricked and ripped off by my first husband.
I was tricked and ripped off by Wierwille.
I was tricked and ripped off by my second husband.
I was tricked and ripped off by a few employers.
So what did I learn?
That this life is short, and I would rather spend the rest of it around good people who are trying their best to do good things rather than around bad people. And I want to continue to understand myself and my motives better, so that I don't get tricked by bad people anymore. AND I want to take a little time to warn others about the bad people, and maybe spare a few the heartaches I have had.
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rascal
No doubt you think so....and it is your perogative....I do not expect to change your mind.
It becomes our business however, when you misstate others positions.......when you find it necessaary to assault others character and try to cast doubt on our credibility in order to make it appear that your perspective has merit.
I will consider your view point when you can make observations that don`t require everyone else to be liars in order for your pov to stand up under scrutiny.
.
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rascal
WTH ...I guess that we just haven`t ever been on the same page....you not *getting it* does not negate the importance....sorry...
The fruit in that *dead* man`s life brands him and his ministry...and indicates directly the amount of credence or respect his *works* or ministry is due....damn right we are focusing on the results...sorry if this makes you uncomfortable....but there is not a thing wrong with us examining the fruit in order to judge the reliability of ythe man.... galations exhorts us to do so...and the likes of you or oldies niether one are going to get us to ignore the instructions given regarding a man such as wierwille.
His *works* are no more to be trusted than he was.
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alfakat
my, my, my, how many errors can we have! tsk, tsk...
nobody has raised the issue of "perfection", wattaklown, 'cept U!! nice straw man, dude... did you get him with the klown suit???
perfection is one thing, UNREPENTANT sin is another... can you understand that, bub??? i think not, because it has been brought to your attention in the past and you have blown right by it...
why don't you come back when you get the difference between the two... go give Mike a call or somethin'...
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WordWolf
Oldiesman, pg-6, 10/18/04, 10:22am.
[WordWolf in boldface as usual.]
[Has everyone besides Oldies, WTF and the other wierwillites noticed that the REST of us have had quite civil discussions on MANY threads, where we discussed good times as well as bad, healings as well as harmings, blessings as well as curses, helps as much as hurts? Most of us can discuss the good and bad civilly and mostly reasonably. That's because we don't pretend that experiences survived by others are lies. Do some recount suffering? Yes. Do some recount blessings? Yes. Does either get challenged on it? Well, not unless Oldiesman is there to suggest, intimate or outright call a survivor a liar, fake or fraud. So, everyone ELSE here has a genuine representation of their thoughts. If Oldies was less zealous in his drive to silence the testimony of some, he'd find this place would be a lot less contentious for him. ]
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oldiesman
Wordwolf, if you read attempts by me to silence personal testimonies, please offer examples of same.
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Steve!
No, j@ckfoot, you get hassled so much because you keep on insisting that in your world it was always all daisies and goodness and light and "whatever could all o' y'all be talkin' about? there were never problems!" and you keep on discounting the experiences of others and you keep on calling them liars! Idjit!
If you wouldn't insist on doing that no one (or hardly anyone) would hassle you!
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WordWolf
Originally posted by WTH.
[WordWolf in boldface.]
[ All the more reason to free your mind of self-defeating, destructive habit-patterns, and see things as they are. ]
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oldiesman
(1) in my world it was always all daisies and goodness and light;
(2) there were never problems;
(3) the experiences of others don't count;
(4) others are liars?
You are putting words in my mouth, and your namecalling is unnecessary.
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Steve!
You HAVE said that there were tons of things that you never saw.
You have not necessarily out-and-out said the other things, but you sure as shiznit have implied those things - many, many, many times.
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excathedra
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rascal
You have unjustly called me a liar oldies...you have accused others of lying as well.
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oldiesman
I never called you or anyone a liar.
Produce the quote please.
I HAVE called you a false accuser, which is exactly what you are doing right now.
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WordWolf
[ You're claiming her personal testimony is false. YOU'RE CALLING HER A LIAR. ]
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oldiesman
I will say that I don't believe everything I read on the internet, that's true. But that's a far cry from calling someone a liar.
Do you believe everything you read on the internet?
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rascal
You sure did Oldies...and you ALSO said that I was full of crap too....though not quite the words y-o-u-a-r-e-a-l-i-a-r...it amounts to the same thing when refering to what I related.
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GarthP2000
So why the accusation that she is a 'false accuser', O desperate one?
... oh wait a minute, unless your accusation is also false, ..... right?
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WordWolf
Oldies said to Rascal:
"I never called you or anyone a liar.
Produce the quote please.
I HAVE called you a false accuser, which is exactly what you are doing right now."
WordWolf replied:
"You're claiming her personal testimony is false. YOU'RE CALLING HER A LIAR."
Oldies replied to that:
"When did I say her personal testimony is false?..."
WordWolf replies again.....
[Her personal testimony IS what she stated. It includes an indictment and accusation of wrongdoing by that evil ringleader, vpw. You claim her "accusation" is "false", which means that you're saying her "personal testimony"-which is the body of her accusation and indictment of wrongdoing-is not true. You're saying that her "accusation" is not "true". YOU'RE CALLING HER A LIAR. You know, most humans don't have these sorts of problems, because they don't torture the English language and strive to ascribe alternate meanings to words to fit their convenience. YOU JUST CALLED RASCAL A LIAR AGAIN, in the process of claiming you didn't. ]
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rascal
Thanks Wolf....
You called me a liar oldies...on more than one occasion...and you did others as well...even after there was cooberating testimoney.
It is not to your credit ...that you have to accuse so many of lying in order for you to be able to maintain and defend your posistion.
Getting back to the topic at hand...I don`t think that one CAN get back on track spiritually without renouncing twi and the teachings of a man of the flesh....
As he was a wolf in sheeps clothing...that is, he was a predator that DISGUISED himself as one of the flock in order to get close enough to devour some of us....EVERYTHING he taught must be reexamined...it is the only spiritual;ly healthy choice....else you spend the rest of your life stumbling in the darkness of the teachings of a false minister.
Again it doesn`t hurt me....but when you try to portray true accounts as lies in order to maintain the facade of respectability...you are crossing the line and making it our business.
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Steve!
Oh please! You've certainly implied it often enough!
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Goey
Stop the spin Oldies. I was not referring to the intprepretaion of the "Leaven Princple". I said you are dishonest/lying when you represent others as saying that "everything" that VPW taught was bad because of his sins. Address what I actually say Oldies and not what you twist it to imply.
I don't think you ever answered me previously about what your baby is. Are you afraid or ashamed to answer. One thing I doubt, is I doubt that your baby is God's Word. I also doubt that is it the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My best guess is that your "baby" is PFAL, the teachings of VPW, and glorification of him as your teacher. This would certainly explain why you whitewash VPW's errors and behavior with all of your "yes buts".
Another thing is prettly clear to me, that is that you have very little knowledge or feel for the scriptures themeselves. You almost never use the Bible/scripture to make a point. Interesting for someone who is concerned about people abandoning "The Word". -- For example, you say I missapplied the "Leaven Principle" yet you offer no Biblical exposition as to why. Why not?
If VPW had lead a devout life, he would not have plagairized Bullinger, Stiles and others. Therefore there would have been no PFAL and therefore no TWI. So the answer is is no.I see you have now changed "everything in TWI was bad because if VPW sins" to just "everything was bad" - omitting the "because of his sins part". You know that changes the argument don't you - of course you do. It was intentional on your part or very sloppy. So which one is it Oldies?
1. Are "some" folks are saying that "everything" in TWI was bad. or
2. Are "some" folks are saying that "everything" in TWI was bad because of VPW sins.
Which one is it Oldies, and who are these "some folks"? Lets have some names and some exmples. Quote what they said and then show how it means either of the above? You can't do it can you? That's why you probably won't even try. Your conscience has been seared.
Oldies, it is dispicable how you intentionally misrepresent people, whitewash sin and evil, and defend the indefensible.
If you were actually trying to bring some balance to the discussion it wouldn't be a problem. But it seems pretty clear your agenda to simply to whitewash the truth and glorify TWI-1 and VPW. IMO, you are spirtually caustic, intellectually dishonest, generally uncaring, and only here to defend VPW and your precious TWI-1. That is why folks engage in sarcasm, and put-downs Oldies. Oh, I doubt that Oldies. You think in black and white most of the time. You probably think like that because of your extreme bias and adoration of VPW/TWI-1 as viewed through your rose colored glasses. If someone mentions the bad - you presume that they deny the good and feel compelled to point it out. You project your own B & W thinking upon others. You deny the evil for the most part and only really admit the good stuff. So you project the opposite upon others. It does not make for good discussion. Of course you don't. - I am sure you have it all justified in your mind. If I were you, I would think about that statment - it's really pretty ignorant and not even close to the real reason "some" folks react to you the way they do. Edited by GoeyLink to comment
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Oakspear
Hey Rascal...looks like you've hidden your goat...it doesn't look like he's getting it!
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Oakspear
Whether anyone can produce the quotes or not, I remember Rascal being called a liar and full of crap. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
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What The Hay
Nah, I wouldn't say that about her or anybody else, but I would say the truth. Your a bunch of actors [hypocrites] acting out and playing like you have honor integrity and faith when you have little or none at all.
On Oct. 17 Wordwolf says this regarding VPW:
But then changes his tune real quick about VPW. Wooohoooooo...But here in lies the problem:
WAKE UP PEOPLE. VPW IS DEAD._ All the works he ever did have been over and done with for a very long time, both the works in his flesh and in his spirit. The winner mentality.
As Word Wolf replies:
[...and yet...the damage lives on in the lives of the people who were hurt, the years that were lost, the webs of self-delusion some have been unable to shed..... Until THAT is all past, it's not "old news". ] The loser (victim) mentality.
What is WordWolf talking about? He's talking about the victim mentality.
I'd say all you got was a taste of life Rascal (and I'd say the same thing to others who are in the same boat) -- and life is the best teacher of all - not VPW or TWI. The only problem is life does not talk to you, it just sort of pushes you around. But each push is life saying, "WAKE UP! There's something I want you to learn." If you learn life's lessons, you'll do well. If not, life will only continue to push you around.
There's a couple things people do about it though. Some just let life push them around. They "suck-it-up" (if you want to put it that way) and live life playing-it-safe - doing all the right things at the right time (acting pious and religious) but they never take any risks. HYPOCRITES!
Then others get angry and push back. Only problem is they push back against other people, whether it is their boss, their husband, their wife - or perhaps a ministry or some minister. HYPOCRITES!
Yeah well, life pushes all of us around. Some give up. Others fight. There's just a few who learn the lesson and decide to move on. Some welcome life pushing them around, but only a few. To these few, it means they need and want to learn something. They learn and move on.
Most however quit (there's a lot of people who quit TWI, but they aren't here discussing TWI, VPW or LCM - their just quiters) and then there are a few of you who only like to fight.
If you don't learn life's lesson, you'll continue blaming others - VPW, TWI, LCM, or your job, your boss, and everything and everyone else for all the problems that life throws at you. The worst part of it is there are plenty of people just like you who live out their life hoping for some "big break" (or for some other spiritual guru) that will come along and solve all their problems. But if all your doing is fighting and blaming someone else - you still haven't learned life's lesson!
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shazdancer
Yup, WTH, I've been pushed around by life a bit. Here's what I found...
I was tricked and ripped off by my first husband.
I was tricked and ripped off by Wierwille.
I was tricked and ripped off by my second husband.
I was tricked and ripped off by a few employers.
So what did I learn?
That this life is short, and I would rather spend the rest of it around good people who are trying their best to do good things rather than around bad people. And I want to continue to understand myself and my motives better, so that I don't get tricked by bad people anymore. AND I want to take a little time to warn others about the bad people, and maybe spare a few the heartaches I have had.
You have a problem with that?
Shaz
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