Coolwaters, I think you've made some excellent comments on this thread, particularly about the one body. Please excuse my silence, and know that I'm keenly aware of your presence, and considering your thoughtful viewpoints. And thanks for not participating in the namecalling or put-downs.
Actually my silence has to do with making a decision not to respond to everything written but trying to have reflective thought about it; and you've written some pretty intense food for thought. Others have too, and I think it's going to take me a while to digest it all.
But it's his typical MO - he states his opinion, he receives all kind of flak for it, he acts all repentant and says he's "considering" it, and then he disappears for a short time, only to come back in a few weeks with his original points of view and message about how the women involved were culpable too.
It's very hard to let go of something...especially when it felt so good...and it's all that one has to hold onto sometimes.
TWI trained us to have knee-jerk reactions to anything twi disagreed with...via the "steel your mind and guard your heart" mentality...and it's still hard for me not to have those knee-jerk reactions and be open-minded enough to consider that what sounds outlandish might not be so outlandish after all.
So if it's so difficult for me, then I suppose it's as difficult for anyone else.
One of my desires of participating here at GSC is to connect with people as human beings to human beings...not just as belief system to belief system...and not just as point/counterpoint.
And, yeah...
I have a hard time letting go of people in real life, too. I just remember all of the people who did not let go of me in life...and how very much it helped my life...
Having come on the scene quit late on this thread...I threw out the baby with the bath water, Ivroy soap, Johnsons Baby Shampoo and a delicate wash cloth too.
Life is a continual DO OVER. We change, soceity changes and nothing ever stays the same. You can count on it.
Because we are continually evolving, I would hope our relationship with God would change too. Apon ditching the baby and bathwater I'v grown to believe The Bible is a Historical book and a book of medaphors. My admiration for Jesus Christ has grown immensely (I'm in love) and "GOD" is...more of a joy to know and our partnership is going well.
To hang on to the baby and bathwater for me cruched me in all areas of my life. Glad I took the plung into the real waters of life. :)-->
Glad I'm not taking care of someone elses baby and bathwater.
i swear, if i hadn't been influenced by some perverts growing up -- and then others in a religious cult -- i doubt very much i would be analyzing why some man who took advantage....
Hopefully, when you consider her words, you'll come to realize that CW was REALLY HURT. I know that no one of my personal acquaintances in TWI endured what some of the GSers have. I expect that that's been your experience, too. But I have no reason to doubt the truth of the accusations, because no one here has anything to gain by lying.
Keep the Word that you've been taught. Keep the memories of good times in fellowship. But don't dismiss those who do not. What would TWI have to have done to you to make you renounce it all? That's what happened to CW and the others. See it from that perspective, and have some compassion. It doesn't mean you'll "lose" this debate. Some of the posts at GS break my heart. :(-->
Can anyone name just one poster who has rejected "The Word" because of VP's sins? Or even has rejected any of what TWI taught (true or not) because of Wierwille's sins?
My son is healed an continues to be strengthened because of the word that I learned.
Just because certain individuals are full of it doesn't mean the word that they taught is all wrong. Are we not all responsible to believe and work the word ourselves. This is where I got my start after years of searching.
Seems to me there are "people" blocking the way anywhere you go. There are people opening the door too. I don't know, I'm just blessed with what I know and I am wiser for what I have gone through.
But it's his typical MO - he states his opinion, he receives all kind of flak for it, he acts all repentant and says he's "considering" it, and then he disappears for a short time, only to come back in a few weeks with his original points of view and message about how the women involved were culpable too.
That may be where all past performance has gone, and where
the smart money would go,
but,
anything can happen.
Perhaps this time,
OM will take a long, hard look at the long, hard road
Hopefully, when you consider her words, you'll come to realize that CW was REALLY HURT. I know that no one of my personal acquaintances in TWI endured what some of the GSers have. I expect that that's been your experience, too. But I have no reason to doubt the truth of the accusations, because no one here has anything to gain by lying.
Keep the Word that you've been taught. Keep the memories of good times in fellowship. But don't dismiss those who do not. What would TWI have to have done to you to make you renounce it all? That's what happened to CW and the others. See it from that perspective, and have some compassion. It doesn't mean you'll "lose" this debate. Some of the posts at GS break my heart. :(-->
quote:Can anyone name just one poster who has rejected "The Word" because of VP's sins? Or even has rejected any of what TWI taught (true or not) because of Wierwille's sins?
I suspect that such a person does not exist.
Oakspear, I think ALL of the posters who have been hurt by the evil works of VPW and LCM and others, and who later have renounced twi, fall in this category. If not, then why all the harsh words about VPW and TWI and people feeling like they were deceived, suckered, and cheated? Of course this is about that.
I suggest you go back and read GeorgeStGeorge's last post, it's pretty powerful, and does help me see why some folks are still so angry.
...people feeling like they were deceived, suckered, and cheated?
So, if people are deceived, suckered and cheated they should just shut up about it, cuz it wasn't really real, just a 'feeling'?
Is that what you mean?
In TWI we were expected to never hold negative thoughts or anger about the ministry. They were never wrong, so just renew your mind to the greatness blah de blah.
There is nothing wrong with being angry about how we were treated in TWI. It helps people make necessary changes.
Can I some how clarify something here. For those who "reject VPW, LCM and TWIs teachings... are they no less closer to GOd for it? I'v come to realize that God is to big to fit in any one religion. To place the spiritual solidarity of Gods "truth" in one belief system (TWI) so limits GOD and certainly those that seek after spirituality. IMO
It's like telling somone that there is no or limited life out side of the borders of your town. Therefore all that the Cities ,States and Countries has to offer are made null and void because you were told it was bad and evil. So you miserably live within the limits and do the best you can.
For me to live and stay in that town was and is amotional, spiritual and personia suiside(?). Amagin the Creator try to do the same. What ever your belief system is that is how big your God will be.
I'v allowed no walls or limits to understanding GOD. And I count all beliefs to be a part of mans nessesity for order. But to much order can drive what is spiritually right out the door.
Since I've left the teachings of TWI, my relationship with myself and my God has been the best it has ever been. And yes I do read the BIBLE. I just choose not to take it literally but spiritually. :)-->
Exie...Good to see you on this post. You too CW. :D-->
Oakspear, I think ALL of the posters who have been hurt by the evil works of VPW and LCM and others, and who later have renounced twi, fall in this category.
See, I did the very same thing. I don't know if you remember, but I was a strong voice that said, "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater". Heck, when I first found an extwi message board my first post was a lengthy one chastising people for badmouthing vpw and not getting out of twi if they didn't want to be there.
I know that Hope remembers how I lit into a person because he/she wouldn't just walk away from his/her family and friends and get out of twi if he/she thought that was what God wanted.
OM, I was a dyed-in-the-wool twigite. For many years after I left twi I thought that I would one day go back...after twi had "cleaned house" to my standards.
I yearned for the days of "free love and godly fellowship with the believers".
So much so, in fact, that when I found out that the man who undershepherded me in twi had a home fellowship of his own running, I was willing to drive 130 miles round trip every week to attend. When that same man opened a church, I made that same drive faithfully for 2 years, faithfully gave the church my tithes and offerings, and was still so very dipped in the twi mindset that when my husband was in a near deadly head-on collision, I conspired with the pastor against my husband...because my husband surely was reaping the fruits of his unrighteousness. (There's a thread around here somewhere in which I publicly apologize to my husband.)
So I truly get what you are saying.
What triggered my total rejection of all of that?
OM, holy spirit revealed many things to me...and opened my eyes to many things...particularly about how the mindset that I learned in twi was the root cause of the destruction of many families...and particularly the children in those families.
That was in March of 2002...14 years after the whole Alaska fiasco where all of the destruction of the families and children at the hands of twi members and "leadership" had happened.
Do you see, OM, that, even when branch leaders and twig leaders were convicted of child abuse and pedophilia, I still held to the mindset for many, many years?
Do you see, OM, that I didn't just reject everything because of the sins...the crimes...of many...that I still "stood"...I still doggedly held onto what I had learned in piffle?
But holy spirit had had enough of my foolishness...and the destruction of my family because of my foolishness.
It takes a work of holy spirit to open people's hearts and minds in such a deep and abiding manner. I sure wasn't doing it of my own accord.
That's why I'm not here to argue you into changing your mind. I can't.
And you can't change your mind about what you know as "the word" just on logic.
Which is as it should be, imo.
All I hope to do here is to be an example to you. By sharing my life, by sharing my experiences, by sharing my journey, maybe something I say will be inspired and will sit right in your heart.
And if nothing ever changes about what you think, do or say, it's not my job or concern to judge you as less of a person.
It is, however, my job to speak up when I know to speak up...and never quit until I know otherwise.
I learned that lesson in the most harsh manner anyone can learn a lesson...it came at the price of my husband's and children's well-being.
The very worst thing twi taught to people was, "I have no friends when it comes to the word."
That is the mindset that has brought about all of the destruction wrought by twi's hands...
Because that is the mindset that rips apart the one body...
Because for anyone to receive the gift, Jesus is first a friend before he is accepted as a saviour.
Woooh girl. You can talk to me all day long. Well said sweet person...WELL SAID!
I know you do not post to get valadation for yourself or your past. Your writings do speak loudly that there was harm done and you openly want to and have healed.
Speaking your truth is always welcome in my home. Namaste sweet girl, NAMASTE!
quote:"Wierwille committed disgusting sins at various points in his life, therefore everything about his life and teachings are bad ...
Nah, I don't believe it."
And neither does anyone else.
Why don't you stop the intentional misrepresentation of what people are saying.
FEW IF ANYONE HERE HAS EVER SAID THAT "EVERYTHING" ABOUT HIS LIFE AND TEACHINGS ARE BAD.
Yes I am yelling, cause you have a real problem hearing - either that are you one dispicably dishonest human being.
Get it through your thick head - and stop lying to yourself and to others about what folks are really saying.
Not "EVERYTHING", but rather "SOME". SOME of his teachings were bad. SOME parts of his life were bad.
As far as the Leaven Principle goes - first the "some" of his sins scripturally disqualified him for true leadership within the Church. The minimum standards are clear and concise. No one sins all the time. So let's say that VPW only commited adultery once per month and only got drunk once a week. Of all of his time that probably amounted to less than what - 5 -10 percent? Yet it was still enough to disqualify him as a leader according to the scriptures. So here is a case of a little leaven leavening the whole lump as far as being a true leader.
It is similar for teachings (doctrine). For argument sake, let's say that 95 percent of what VPW taught was doctrinally correct. That leaves 5 percent being doctrinally incorrect. Now, let's look at what the 5 percent was. First in my mind is problems with the law of believing. Next is his teaching on tithing. Then there is the one where the king owns all the women in the kingdom. And then consider the backroom teachings where adultery is not even really adultery - especially if it blesses the Man of God.
Now stir this stuff all up and we have the sum of all the individual parts - All of VPW's behavior - good and bad and his all his teachings - good and bad. - We now have "the lump" which is basically TWI-1 based upon VPW's teachings and leadership.
The point folks are making is NOT that "everything" individually that VPW did was bad, or that "everything" individually he taught was bad. So for Pete's sake get honest for once and stop saying that.
The point is that the bad (the leaven) was enough to spoil the whole lump (TWI as it was lead by VPW).
Oldies, I simply don't know how I could make it any clearer for you.
But just remember this - Whenever you represent folks as saying that "everything" that VPW taught was bad/wrong because of his sins - know for a fact that you are misrepresenting and lying about the truth of what is really being said.
wow, Goey, that is definitely one for the archives!
Sums it up perfectly...that is how the leaven worked, exactly. And, yes, virginia, of course there was good and good times in twi -- but it came to naught, not cuz the debbilll dint like us, but because there was leaven ie, error, evil, sin, what-have-you, in the doctrine and practice of twit. QED.
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oldiesman
Coolwaters, I think you've made some excellent comments on this thread, particularly about the one body. Please excuse my silence, and know that I'm keenly aware of your presence, and considering your thoughtful viewpoints. And thanks for not participating in the namecalling or put-downs.
Actually my silence has to do with making a decision not to respond to everything written but trying to have reflective thought about it; and you've written some pretty intense food for thought. Others have too, and I think it's going to take me a while to digest it all.
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CoolWaters
Wow! TYVM! It's good to know you're considering our words.
Now I'll quit getting my panties in a knot and let you get on with you're considerations.
I'm sorry to have jumped to wrong conclusions.
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Steve!
I wouldn't get taken in by what om says.
He may be sincere - this time.
But it's his typical MO - he states his opinion, he receives all kind of flak for it, he acts all repentant and says he's "considering" it, and then he disappears for a short time, only to come back in a few weeks with his original points of view and message about how the women involved were culpable too.
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CoolWaters
Yeah, Steve...yeah...I know...
Sigh...
It's very hard to let go of something...especially when it felt so good...and it's all that one has to hold onto sometimes.
TWI trained us to have knee-jerk reactions to anything twi disagreed with...via the "steel your mind and guard your heart" mentality...and it's still hard for me not to have those knee-jerk reactions and be open-minded enough to consider that what sounds outlandish might not be so outlandish after all.
So if it's so difficult for me, then I suppose it's as difficult for anyone else.
One of my desires of participating here at GSC is to connect with people as human beings to human beings...not just as belief system to belief system...and not just as point/counterpoint.
And, yeah...
I have a hard time letting go of people in real life, too. I just remember all of the people who did not let go of me in life...and how very much it helped my life...
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imbus
Having come on the scene quit late on this thread...I threw out the baby with the bath water, Ivroy soap, Johnsons Baby Shampoo and a delicate wash cloth too.
Life is a continual DO OVER. We change, soceity changes and nothing ever stays the same. You can count on it.
Because we are continually evolving, I would hope our relationship with God would change too. Apon ditching the baby and bathwater I'v grown to believe The Bible is a Historical book and a book of medaphors. My admiration for Jesus Christ has grown immensely (I'm in love) and "GOD" is...more of a joy to know and our partnership is going well.
To hang on to the baby and bathwater for me cruched me in all areas of my life. Glad I took the plung into the real waters of life.
:)-->
Glad I'm not taking care of someone elses baby and bathwater.
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excathedra
hi imbus, i think you're so great
love, ex
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excathedra
oldies and others:
i swear, if i hadn't been influenced by some perverts growing up -- and then others in a religious cult -- i doubt very much i would be analyzing why some man who took advantage....
....is still such a good fellow
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GeorgeStGeorge
Oldies,
Hopefully, when you consider her words, you'll come to realize that CW was REALLY HURT. I know that no one of my personal acquaintances in TWI endured what some of the GSers have. I expect that that's been your experience, too. But I have no reason to doubt the truth of the accusations, because no one here has anything to gain by lying.
Keep the Word that you've been taught. Keep the memories of good times in fellowship. But don't dismiss those who do not. What would TWI have to have done to you to make you renounce it all? That's what happened to CW and the others. See it from that perspective, and have some compassion. It doesn't mean you'll "lose" this debate. Some of the posts at GS break my heart.
:(-->
George
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Oakspear
Can anyone name just one poster who has rejected "The Word" because of VP's sins? Or even has rejected any of what TWI taught (true or not) because of Wierwille's sins?
I suspect that such a person does not exist.
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Oakspear
...other than in someone's dreams and imagination
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Schuks
I went to many churches in many cities.
My son is healed an continues to be strengthened because of the word that I learned.
Just because certain individuals are full of it doesn't mean the word that they taught is all wrong. Are we not all responsible to believe and work the word ourselves. This is where I got my start after years of searching.
Seems to me there are "people" blocking the way anywhere you go. There are people opening the door too. I don't know, I'm just blessed with what I know and I am wiser for what I have gone through.
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WordWolf
That may be where all past performance has gone, and where
the smart money would go,
but,
anything can happen.
Perhaps this time,
OM will take a long, hard look at the long, hard road
inflicted on some people,
and broaden his perspective.
It could happen.
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WordWolf
That says it better than I did, I think.
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oldiesman
I suggest you go back and read GeorgeStGeorge's last post, it's pretty powerful, and does help me see why some folks are still so angry.
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Bramble
OM Quote:
...people feeling like they were deceived, suckered, and cheated?
So, if people are deceived, suckered and cheated they should just shut up about it, cuz it wasn't really real, just a 'feeling'?
Is that what you mean?
In TWI we were expected to never hold negative thoughts or anger about the ministry. They were never wrong, so just renew your mind to the greatness blah de blah.
There is nothing wrong with being angry about how we were treated in TWI. It helps people make necessary changes.
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imbus
Can I some how clarify something here. For those who "reject VPW, LCM and TWIs teachings... are they no less closer to GOd for it? I'v come to realize that God is to big to fit in any one religion. To place the spiritual solidarity of Gods "truth" in one belief system (TWI) so limits GOD and certainly those that seek after spirituality. IMO
It's like telling somone that there is no or limited life out side of the borders of your town. Therefore all that the Cities ,States and Countries has to offer are made null and void because you were told it was bad and evil. So you miserably live within the limits and do the best you can.
For me to live and stay in that town was and is amotional, spiritual and personia suiside(?). Amagin the Creator try to do the same. What ever your belief system is that is how big your God will be.
I'v allowed no walls or limits to understanding GOD. And I count all beliefs to be a part of mans nessesity for order. But to much order can drive what is spiritually right out the door.
Since I've left the teachings of TWI, my relationship with myself and my God has been the best it has ever been. And yes I do read the BIBLE. I just choose not to take it literally but spiritually.
:)-->
Exie...Good to see you on this post. You too CW.
:D-->
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CoolWaters
OM,
I think I finally understand what is going on.
Are you equating what twi taught with "the word"?
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oldiesman
The simple answer is yes, with the proviso that some of what twi taught/teaches is wrongly divided.
Stated another way, I don't think everything twi taught was/is rightly divided, but that part that was/is, is "the Word".
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CoolWaters
OK, fair enough.
See, I did the very same thing. I don't know if you remember, but I was a strong voice that said, "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater". Heck, when I first found an extwi message board my first post was a lengthy one chastising people for badmouthing vpw and not getting out of twi if they didn't want to be there.
I know that Hope remembers how I lit into a person because he/she wouldn't just walk away from his/her family and friends and get out of twi if he/she thought that was what God wanted.
OM, I was a dyed-in-the-wool twigite. For many years after I left twi I thought that I would one day go back...after twi had "cleaned house" to my standards.
I yearned for the days of "free love and godly fellowship with the believers".
So much so, in fact, that when I found out that the man who undershepherded me in twi had a home fellowship of his own running, I was willing to drive 130 miles round trip every week to attend. When that same man opened a church, I made that same drive faithfully for 2 years, faithfully gave the church my tithes and offerings, and was still so very dipped in the twi mindset that when my husband was in a near deadly head-on collision, I conspired with the pastor against my husband...because my husband surely was reaping the fruits of his unrighteousness. (There's a thread around here somewhere in which I publicly apologize to my husband.)
So I truly get what you are saying.
What triggered my total rejection of all of that?
OM, holy spirit revealed many things to me...and opened my eyes to many things...particularly about how the mindset that I learned in twi was the root cause of the destruction of many families...and particularly the children in those families.
That was in March of 2002...14 years after the whole Alaska fiasco where all of the destruction of the families and children at the hands of twi members and "leadership" had happened.
Do you see, OM, that, even when branch leaders and twig leaders were convicted of child abuse and pedophilia, I still held to the mindset for many, many years?
Do you see, OM, that I didn't just reject everything because of the sins...the crimes...of many...that I still "stood"...I still doggedly held onto what I had learned in piffle?
But holy spirit had had enough of my foolishness...and the destruction of my family because of my foolishness.
It takes a work of holy spirit to open people's hearts and minds in such a deep and abiding manner. I sure wasn't doing it of my own accord.
That's why I'm not here to argue you into changing your mind. I can't.
And you can't change your mind about what you know as "the word" just on logic.
Which is as it should be, imo.
All I hope to do here is to be an example to you. By sharing my life, by sharing my experiences, by sharing my journey, maybe something I say will be inspired and will sit right in your heart.
And if nothing ever changes about what you think, do or say, it's not my job or concern to judge you as less of a person.
It is, however, my job to speak up when I know to speak up...and never quit until I know otherwise.
I learned that lesson in the most harsh manner anyone can learn a lesson...it came at the price of my husband's and children's well-being.
The very worst thing twi taught to people was, "I have no friends when it comes to the word."
That is the mindset that has brought about all of the destruction wrought by twi's hands...
Because that is the mindset that rips apart the one body...
Because for anyone to receive the gift, Jesus is first a friend before he is accepted as a saviour.
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imbus
CW,
Woooh girl. You can talk to me all day long. Well said sweet person...WELL SAID!
I know you do not post to get valadation for yourself or your past. Your writings do speak loudly that there was harm done and you openly want to and have healed.
Speaking your truth is always welcome in my home. Namaste sweet girl, NAMASTE!
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Goey
Oldies,
And neither does anyone else.
Why don't you stop the intentional misrepresentation of what people are saying.
FEW IF ANYONE HERE HAS EVER SAID THAT "EVERYTHING" ABOUT HIS LIFE AND TEACHINGS ARE BAD.
Yes I am yelling, cause you have a real problem hearing - either that are you one dispicably dishonest human being.
Get it through your thick head - and stop lying to yourself and to others about what folks are really saying.
Not "EVERYTHING", but rather "SOME". SOME of his teachings were bad. SOME parts of his life were bad.
As far as the Leaven Principle goes - first the "some" of his sins scripturally disqualified him for true leadership within the Church. The minimum standards are clear and concise. No one sins all the time. So let's say that VPW only commited adultery once per month and only got drunk once a week. Of all of his time that probably amounted to less than what - 5 -10 percent? Yet it was still enough to disqualify him as a leader according to the scriptures. So here is a case of a little leaven leavening the whole lump as far as being a true leader.
It is similar for teachings (doctrine). For argument sake, let's say that 95 percent of what VPW taught was doctrinally correct. That leaves 5 percent being doctrinally incorrect. Now, let's look at what the 5 percent was. First in my mind is problems with the law of believing. Next is his teaching on tithing. Then there is the one where the king owns all the women in the kingdom. And then consider the backroom teachings where adultery is not even really adultery - especially if it blesses the Man of God.
Now stir this stuff all up and we have the sum of all the individual parts - All of VPW's behavior - good and bad and his all his teachings - good and bad. - We now have "the lump" which is basically TWI-1 based upon VPW's teachings and leadership.
The point folks are making is NOT that "everything" individually that VPW did was bad, or that "everything" individually he taught was bad. So for Pete's sake get honest for once and stop saying that.
The point is that the bad (the leaven) was enough to spoil the whole lump (TWI as it was lead by VPW).
Oldies, I simply don't know how I could make it any clearer for you.
But just remember this - Whenever you represent folks as saying that "everything" that VPW taught was bad/wrong because of his sins - know for a fact that you are misrepresenting and lying about the truth of what is really being said.
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alfakat
wow, Goey, that is definitely one for the archives!
Sums it up perfectly...that is how the leaven worked, exactly. And, yes, virginia, of course there was good and good times in twi -- but it came to naught, not cuz the debbilll dint like us, but because there was leaven ie, error, evil, sin, what-have-you, in the doctrine and practice of twit. QED.
Thanks, Goey. To a tee...
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imbus
Goey...
:D-->
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I heard this somewhere:
Elephants have no natural predators.
Lions have no natural predators.
Sheep do!
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