When I left TWI it was many months before Craig's confession happened. I knew NOTHING about the sex stuff at HQ, or about VPW. My life in TWI was miserable, but I stuck with it for years because my husband was totally into it, and I didn't want the divorce/custody wars I saw happen to others that left in our area.
When I left, my insincts told me that what TWI was doing was wrong, but the teaching, Bible verses etc I had learned for years told me I was wrong, weak, slothfull, hardhearted, etc etc. Half the time I was sure that I was the biggest spiritual screw up around, but then the other half I was thinking, hmmm, this can't be right.
When I left I believed all the doctrine I was taught in PFAL. As time went on, I believed less and less of it was correct, as I searched churches, websites, blah de blah...
So as far as throwing the baby out with the bath water--in some kind of spoiled child tantrum--didn't happen. I just scrubbed and scrubbed at all the spots, and found myself with nothing there that resembled any kind of baby.
To assume that the rejection of twi as a whole means rejecting "the word" that they purportedly taught, is both arrogant and wrong.
To which I agree. I left an organization, not the Word. To add to GS George's "parable", let's put this into a financial perspective.
Say I invested what I earned into stocks, (or something like that), that helped me use my money more profitably. My investment is there for several years, then I begin to hear rumors of some shady dealings. Upon finding out that the financial organization was suspicious (at the least), and/or more than likely corrupt, I withdraw what I invested (with interest), and walk away -- with what I had initially, plus a bit more.
What was afforded me by my time there, went with me -- as I left the institution, and not the investment.
I never renounced the Word because of somone else's sins, or wrong-doing --although I did ditch a "ministry" because of just that. There is a huge difference.
Any doctrine worth following is worth investigating and verifying for oneself. For me, the evidence of VPW's sins made it more imperative for me to do that investigating and verifying.
The sins themselves did not invalidate anything he taught, but they provided an impetus to look at them a little more closely. Wierwille's sins did not make his teaching void in my mind, but they did cause me to reject taking his word on anything. If it was truth I'd find out through another source, not just because VP said so.
I can't think of anyone here who suggests renouncing or rejecting PFAL or any other TWI teaching simply because the teacher was flawed.
quote: Why do we have to expect perfection from people just because said people talk about God?
Who expects "perfection"? Anyone here ever say that they expected perfection? - Another strawman.
Let's cut to the chase. This is about Wierwille and those of us that point out and expose his "sins". We are being falsely portrayed as expecting perfection, when we do no such thing.
Wierwille was supposed to be a Christian leader, a pastor, a teacher, an evangelist and to some an apostle. The Bible establishes clear and concise minimum standards for those who are to lead within the church. What is expected is not perfection, but rather for those who seek to lead to meet those minimum standards - no more - no less.
Wierwille (and quite a few others in TWI and in Christianity in general) did/do not meet those minimum standards and were/are therefore unfit to be leaders within the body of Christ.
Any doctrine worth following is worth investigating and verifying for oneself. For me, the evidence of VPW's sins made it more imperative for me to do that investigating and verifying.
The sins themselves did not invalidate anything he taught, but they provided an impetus to look at them a little more closely. Wierwille's sins did not make his teaching void in my mind, but they did cause me to reject taking his word on anything. If it was truth I'd find out through another source, not just because VP said so.
I can't think of anyone here who suggests renouncing or rejecting PFAL or any other TWI teaching simply because the teacher was flawed.
I don't think ANYONE suggested that, Oakspear,
but that doesn't seem to stop Oldiesman from demonizing
and labelling fellow-Christians who don't believe exactly the
quote:"I don't care if he was a plagiarist, molester, rapist, conman and overall fraud,
HE TAUGHT ME THE WOOOORD ... I got mine-who cares if YOU suffer?"
I guess part of my question was how to view the above quote and the quote from Steve. I could ignore them, but wanted to really think about it and see if there was a way to view those things positively or try to see where these folks were coming from. All I could see was that maybe renouncing the Word was what they were talking about without really saying it.
Even though I am cognizant that VPW was a flawed man who didn't live circumspectly, as the bible mandates a man of God should, thereby hurting others -- should I feel bad that "I Got Mine"?
By the way, I still view the "I Got Mine" as GOD meeting my needs via twi, so to see something bad about "I Got Mine" would be in essence to renounce God working in my life. And that's not an easy thing or even a smart thing for me to do.
If something is wrong with the fact that "I Got Mine", I'd like to know what. That fact that we got something from God is good, isn't it?
If nothing is wrong with the fact that "I Got Mine", then would it be fair to say that the statement is nothing more than a put-down? or even perhaps a slap in God's face, since He was the one who gave me "Mine"?
I guess it's the idea some folks might think, by their statements, that those of us who are still thankful for their past relations with twi seem to come off (to them) as "not caring that others suffered"? Where does that come from, and how is it that these folks say that?
Of course I care that others suffered and things went wrong. Duh. What reasonable person wouldn't? The question is, what is the appropriate response, knowing these things?
And so what is to be learned and what should be the godly response to the above quote from Wordwolf, if any?
I'm going to read and consider and hope somebody can write something that makes sense, cause I can't make sense of it right now.
There's nothing at all wrong with gleaning what good you can. Nothing.
There's nothing at all wrong with you "getting yours". Nothing.
When you excuse docvic(praise be his name) or tell people that "I just got over it, why can't you?" you are minimizing what they went through, you are treating them as if their emotions and experiences are unimportant.
Every single person I've read here who has acknowledged that they were "blessed" at all in twi also have given God the glory for those blessings...not twi...which is as it should be regardless of loyalty or non-loyalty to the organization.
I read "I don't care if he was a plagiarist, molester, rapist,
conman and overall fraud,
HE TAUGHT ME THE WOOOORD...
I got mine-who cares if YOU suffer?" and think of how vpw and many others treated people in twi.
More often than not vpw and others in twi put forth an attitude of, "Look at what I've got. Look at what you don't have. What's wrong with you/your believing?"
In fact, this attitude got to the point that, just before we left, twig leaders were asking for bank statements to "prove" one's level of believing.
It's arrogant to say to folks, "I got mine."
Why?
The one body.
Nobody can truly put forth that anything is "mine" while also putting forth a belief in the one body.
The bible says that if one part of the body suffers, the whole body suffers.
If you do not feel the suffering of others in the body...
If you simply put forth that you got blessed while questioning why others didn't get blessed...
Then, in effect, you are saying that it wasn't really important that everybody got blessed...
Which means you are saying that there is no need of that part of the body...
quote:"I don't care if he was a plagiarist, molester, rapist, conman and overall fraud,
HE TAUGHT ME THE WOOOORD ... I got mine-who cares if YOU suffer?"
I guess part of my question was how to view the above quote and the quote from Steve.
[Amazing you needed this broken-down into plainer English. This is composed of five parts: A) the plagiarism/fraud and harm to others B) I gained knowledge C) "I got mine" D) "Who cares if you suffer?" The first three words are "I don't care." This is repeated at the end. The emphasis is NOT about what possible gain was received- rather, how that gain was used as an excuse to turn a blind eye to the suffering of others. It's the same attitude that allows corrupt businessmen to exhort all their Enron employees to keep buying shares in Enron-their company- while liquidating all their stock because they thought it was going to fall. Few people would be so silly to claim it would be wrong to make money. However, there was public outrage on this. Because they made money? NO, NOT because they made money. The OUTRAGE was because they were numb and apathetic to the sufferings of others. Worse, their financial gain was at the PRICE of the economic impoverishment of employees living paycheck to paycheck-which THEY orchestrated and arranged. ]
[Or, to make it simpler, in deference to you, Oldies, "I DON'T CARE. I GOT MINE-WHO CARES IF YOU SUFFER?" ]
I could ignore them, but wanted to really think about it and see if there was a way to view those things positively or try to see where these folks were coming from. All I could see was that maybe renouncing the Word was what they were talking about without really saying it.
[ Well, if "that's all you could see", then you should be concerned that your vision lacks range. ]
Even though I am cognizant that VPW was a flawed man who didn't live circumspectly, as the bible mandates a man of God should, thereby hurting others -- should I feel bad that "I Got Mine"?
No, you should feel bad that OTHERS SUFFERED, particularly due to the man and the framework that you feel you've received so much benefit from. ]
["A flawed man who didn't live circumspectly"- is this your way of saying "he raped women, he pretended to research and discover what he didn't, he used God's money for his luxuries, and he fired people to cover his tracks?" If not, perhaps you should consider that THESE are what we object to. If SO, then perhaps you might consider that using such an extreme euphemism sweeps greivous sin, felonies and suffering under the rug.]
By the way, I still view the "I Got Mine" as GOD meeting my needs via twi, so to see something bad about "I Got Mine" would be in essence to renounce God working in my life. And that's not an easy thing or even a smart thing for me to do.
[ twi's operation was at the expense of others, who suffered, and you don't care. Consider this analogy: A man receives financial benefit from investing in "vpw Investing". He gets his money with interest, and is happy. Later, he finds out that 'vpw Investing' was a fraudulent corporation that operated on a ponzi scheme. When it came time for this investor to get his money and interest, 'vpw Investing' had spent it, so they robbed a bank serving a retirement community and used the deposits to pay him and other investors. Upon seeing this in the news, and the special reports on how the Sunset Retirement Home's residents were now bankrupt and were forced to move out and had no place to live and nothing to live on, the investor says "how sad" and goes about his business. After all, that is a sad story, but he got his investment and doesn't see the need to feel in any way complicit in the robbery..even though the news showed that's exactly where his money came from. After all, he got his money, who cares that the others suffered? ]
If something is wrong with the fact that "I Got Mine", I'd like to know what. That fact that we got something from God is good, isn't it?
["The blessing of the LORD, it makes rich, and He adds no sorrow with it." The blessing of twi, it benefits some and beats down others. Why is it so difficult to see that these are two different things? ]
If nothing is wrong with the fact that "I Got Mine", then would it be fair to say that the statement is nothing more than a put-down? or even perhaps a slap in God's face, since He was the one who gave me "Mine"?
[ Your assumption that it was God who provided the "benefits" you received from twi turns this into a trick question. What's wrong with you getting yours is that it came at the expense of others suffering. If you had gotten yours by robbing someone on the street, there would be something wrong with THAT, too. ]
[ The emphasis and point is about the SUFFERING OF OTHERS. You "got yours", but others SUFFERED AS A RESULT. ]
[so, let's be clear here. Are you saying God is complicit in the rapes and plagiarism? Someone else here made that claim. ]
I guess it's the idea some folks might think, by their statements, that those of us who are still thankful for their past relations with twi seem to come off (to them) as "not caring that others suffered"? Where does that come from, and how is it that these folks say that?
[it's the continual whitewashing of the felonies and rapes that we object to. ]
["Where does that come from?" When people's lives were devastated by the direct action of vpw, you call them liars and claim they're not telling the truth. EVERY. TIME. Any time testimony comes up about actions vpw took that damaged others, you've engaged in a campaign of rewriting events and hiding eyewitness accounts and documents. EVERYBODY here for more than a few months has seen that. You've done it the whole time I've been here, plus the older GSC board. Do you refuse to acknowledge that is the content, intent and purpose of a large percentage of your posts here? ]
Of course I care that others suffered and things went wrong. Duh. What reasonable person wouldn't? The question is, what is the appropriate response, knowing these things?
[ According to you, THERE ARE NO OTHERS SUFFERING, and vpw didn't rape any women. I've read your posts. Duh. What is the appropriate response to someone trying to hide the facts, lives and eyewitness accounts? ]
And so what is to be learned and what should be the godly response to the above quote from Wordwolf, if any?
[ How about genuine sorrow over callousness in response to the suffering of others? How about at least neutrality in response to them, which is an improvement to calling them liars? A more appropriate response might be a desire to offer amends to someone, somewhere, someone who suffered because you got yours. However, ceasing to injure them further by ceasing to attack their character would be a step in the right direction. ]
I'm going to read and consider and hope somebody can write something that makes sense, cause I can't make sense of it right now.
[based on previous posts and previous encounter, none of this will "make sense" to you. It WILL make sense to almost everyone else. However, you CAN change your mind at any time. We'll see. ]
[iT'S NOT WRONG TO BENEFIT-IT IS WRONG TO BENEFIT FROM THE SUFFERING OF OTHERS.
IT IS NOT WRONG TO SEEK THE TRUTH-IT IS WRONG TO CAUSE OTHERS TO SUFFER WHO SEEK TO EXPOSE LIES AND DECEIT. ]
Your whitewashing and denial of evil does God a disservice. We can all see through your pretended inability to understand others' positions (nobody is that stupid). You have learned well the lessons of your idol.
Oldies claims that he's just trying to make sense of it all...ok, here's a parable that might help to enlighten him:
A man was crawling through the desert, dying of thirst, when he spotted someone sitting under an umbrella, sipping iced tea. The thirsty man crawled up to the other and asked him is he could have some of his iced tea...the man replied, "no, but you can have some water out of the well over there if you give me a dollar"...The man pulled a dollar out of pocket and crawled over to the well and drank.
A short time later a beautiful maiden came stumbling along, also dying of thirst. She asked him for something to drink and the reply was the same, "you can drink from the well if you give me a dollar". The maiden handed him the dollar and turned for the well...only the man wouldn't let her proceed. He knocked her to the ground and forcibly raped her. When he was finished, he kicked her in the head several times until she was unconsciencious.
Sometime later, the first man to drink from the well, overheard a group of people talking. They were talking about how evil the man was, who raped and beat the woman...they were saying that he was worthy of contempt in every regard because of what he had done to the woman...Suddenly the man spoke out in defense of the rapist...People were dumbfounded! How can you defend this brutal abuser? The man replied and said..."The water he sold me was good".
More often than not vpw and others in twi put forth an attitude of, "Look at what I've got. Look at what you don't have. What's wrong with you/your believing?"
In fact, this attitude got to the point that, just before we left, twig leaders were asking for bank statements to "prove" one's level of believing.
It's arrogant to say to folks, "I got mine."
Why?
The one body.
Nobody can truly put forth that anything is "mine" while also putting forth a belief in the one body.
The bible says that if one part of the body suffers, the whole body suffers.
If you do not feel the suffering of others in the body...
If you simply put forth that you got blessed while questioning why others didn't get blessed...
Then, in effect, you are saying that it wasn't really important that everybody got blessed...
Which means you are saying that there is no need of that part of the body...
Ohhh but Steve and Uncle Hairy....you creeps are focusing on the sin in that mans life....rather than the good he did...I mean after all...he SOLD you the water you wanted....
I think that you both must be filled with rage....and that woman should darn well be thankfull and get over it, if she got her drink of water....n ....she`d darn well better keep her mouth shut or else she will be considered a whiner and perpetual victim....she will probably exagerate her suffering as well..as victims are prone to do....
Don't forget that she also bears responsibility. After all, that man has no power over her that she does not allow him to have. She was an adult and should have believed to not be in that situation in the first place.
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Bob
I expect hamburgers after sitting on my bum for someone to teach me something I can't use.
Once that stopped, I had no choice but to leave.
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Bramble
When I left TWI it was many months before Craig's confession happened. I knew NOTHING about the sex stuff at HQ, or about VPW. My life in TWI was miserable, but I stuck with it for years because my husband was totally into it, and I didn't want the divorce/custody wars I saw happen to others that left in our area.
When I left, my insincts told me that what TWI was doing was wrong, but the teaching, Bible verses etc I had learned for years told me I was wrong, weak, slothfull, hardhearted, etc etc. Half the time I was sure that I was the biggest spiritual screw up around, but then the other half I was thinking, hmmm, this can't be right.
When I left I believed all the doctrine I was taught in PFAL. As time went on, I believed less and less of it was correct, as I searched churches, websites, blah de blah...
So as far as throwing the baby out with the bath water--in some kind of spoiled child tantrum--didn't happen. I just scrubbed and scrubbed at all the spots, and found myself with nothing there that resembled any kind of baby.
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dmiller
To which I agree. I left an organization, not the Word. To add to GS George's "parable", let's put this into a financial perspective.
Say I invested what I earned into stocks, (or something like that), that helped me use my money more profitably. My investment is there for several years, then I begin to hear rumors of some shady dealings. Upon finding out that the financial organization was suspicious (at the least), and/or more than likely corrupt, I withdraw what I invested (with interest), and walk away -- with what I had initially, plus a bit more.
What was afforded me by my time there, went with me -- as I left the institution, and not the investment.
I never renounced the Word because of somone else's sins, or wrong-doing --although I did ditch a "ministry" because of just that. There is a huge difference.
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Oakspear
Any doctrine worth following is worth investigating and verifying for oneself. For me, the evidence of VPW's sins made it more imperative for me to do that investigating and verifying.
The sins themselves did not invalidate anything he taught, but they provided an impetus to look at them a little more closely. Wierwille's sins did not make his teaching void in my mind, but they did cause me to reject taking his word on anything. If it was truth I'd find out through another source, not just because VP said so.
I can't think of anyone here who suggests renouncing or rejecting PFAL or any other TWI teaching simply because the teacher was flawed.
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excathedra
thanks goey and others for saying things so well
saves me time from looking up that verse about the baby and bathwater
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WordWolf
At least as good as I would have said it.
:)-->
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WordWolf
I don't think ANYONE suggested that, Oakspear,
but that doesn't seem to stop Oldiesman from demonizing
and labelling fellow-Christians who don't believe exactly the
same way he does.
After all, he learned how to do exactly that from
"THE Teacher".
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oldiesman
Even though I am cognizant that VPW was a flawed man who didn't live circumspectly, as the bible mandates a man of God should, thereby hurting others -- should I feel bad that "I Got Mine"?
By the way, I still view the "I Got Mine" as GOD meeting my needs via twi, so to see something bad about "I Got Mine" would be in essence to renounce God working in my life. And that's not an easy thing or even a smart thing for me to do.
If something is wrong with the fact that "I Got Mine", I'd like to know what. That fact that we got something from God is good, isn't it?
If nothing is wrong with the fact that "I Got Mine", then would it be fair to say that the statement is nothing more than a put-down? or even perhaps a slap in God's face, since He was the one who gave me "Mine"?
I guess it's the idea some folks might think, by their statements, that those of us who are still thankful for their past relations with twi seem to come off (to them) as "not caring that others suffered"? Where does that come from, and how is it that these folks say that?
Of course I care that others suffered and things went wrong. Duh. What reasonable person wouldn't? The question is, what is the appropriate response, knowing these things?
And so what is to be learned and what should be the godly response to the above quote from Wordwolf, if any?
I'm going to read and consider and hope somebody can write something that makes sense, cause I can't make sense of it right now.
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Steve!
There's nothing at all wrong with gleaning what good you can. Nothing.
There's nothing at all wrong with you "getting yours". Nothing.
When you excuse docvic(praise be his name) or tell people that "I just got over it, why can't you?" you are minimizing what they went through, you are treating them as if their emotions and experiences are unimportant.
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Bob
I think the "I got mine" attitude is selfish.
It also has an assumption that you got something worth keeping.
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CoolWaters
OM,
Every single person I've read here who has acknowledged that they were "blessed" at all in twi also have given God the glory for those blessings...not twi...which is as it should be regardless of loyalty or non-loyalty to the organization.
I read "I don't care if he was a plagiarist, molester, rapist,
conman and overall fraud,
HE TAUGHT ME THE WOOOORD...
I got mine-who cares if YOU suffer?" and think of how vpw and many others treated people in twi.
More often than not vpw and others in twi put forth an attitude of, "Look at what I've got. Look at what you don't have. What's wrong with you/your believing?"
In fact, this attitude got to the point that, just before we left, twig leaders were asking for bank statements to "prove" one's level of believing.
It's arrogant to say to folks, "I got mine."
Why?
The one body.
Nobody can truly put forth that anything is "mine" while also putting forth a belief in the one body.
The bible says that if one part of the body suffers, the whole body suffers.
If you do not feel the suffering of others in the body...
If you simply put forth that you got blessed while questioning why others didn't get blessed...
Then, in effect, you are saying that it wasn't really important that everybody got blessed...
Which means you are saying that there is no need of that part of the body...
See?
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WordWolf
Original post by Oldies.
[WordWolf in boldface .]
[based on previous posts and previous encounter, none of this will "make sense" to you. It WILL make sense to almost everyone else. However, you CAN change your mind at any time. We'll see. ]
[iT'S NOT WRONG TO BENEFIT-IT IS WRONG TO BENEFIT FROM THE SUFFERING OF OTHERS.
IT IS NOT WRONG TO SEEK THE TRUTH-IT IS WRONG TO CAUSE OTHERS TO SUFFER WHO SEEK TO EXPOSE LIES AND DECEIT. ]
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rascal
Thank you Word wolf.
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Oakspear
Oldiesman:
Your whitewashing and denial of evil does God a disservice. We can all see through your pretended inability to understand others' positions (nobody is that stupid). You have learned well the lessons of your idol.
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excathedra
wordwolf
"The blessing of the LORD, it makes rich, and He adds no sorrow with it."
is that from the bible ?
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johniam
You guys're just putting words in Oldies' mouth. Any BOD member could do that!
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GrouchoMarxJr
Oldies claims that he's just trying to make sense of it all...ok, here's a parable that might help to enlighten him:
A man was crawling through the desert, dying of thirst, when he spotted someone sitting under an umbrella, sipping iced tea. The thirsty man crawled up to the other and asked him is he could have some of his iced tea...the man replied, "no, but you can have some water out of the well over there if you give me a dollar"...The man pulled a dollar out of pocket and crawled over to the well and drank.
A short time later a beautiful maiden came stumbling along, also dying of thirst. She asked him for something to drink and the reply was the same, "you can drink from the well if you give me a dollar". The maiden handed him the dollar and turned for the well...only the man wouldn't let her proceed. He knocked her to the ground and forcibly raped her. When he was finished, he kicked her in the head several times until she was unconsciencious.
Sometime later, the first man to drink from the well, overheard a group of people talking. They were talking about how evil the man was, who raped and beat the woman...they were saying that he was worthy of contempt in every regard because of what he had done to the woman...Suddenly the man spoke out in defense of the rapist...People were dumbfounded! How can you defend this brutal abuser? The man replied and said..."The water he sold me was good".
End of parable.
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dmiller
As usual --
Waters, hits the nail on the head!!
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Oakspear
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JustThinking
Oh my! Was that a criticism of the all-knowing Board of MisDirectors? Say 10 Hail Vics for that one buddy.
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Steve Lortz
UncleHairy - Excellent parable! Excellent!!
Love,
Steve
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rascal
Ohhh but Steve and Uncle Hairy....you creeps are focusing on the sin in that mans life....rather than the good he did...I mean after all...he SOLD you the water you wanted....
I think that you both must be filled with rage....and that woman should darn well be thankfull and get over it, if she got her drink of water....n ....she`d darn well better keep her mouth shut or else she will be considered a whiner and perpetual victim....she will probably exagerate her suffering as well..as victims are prone to do....
Ithink you arae both full of cr-p
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JustThinking
Rascal,
Don't forget that she also bears responsibility. After all, that man has no power over her that she does not allow him to have. She was an adult and should have believed to not be in that situation in the first place.
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ex70sHouston
Everyone else has waded into this so here goes.
When I left TWI I slowly rejected evry teaching by VPW. It has taken many years before I could accept anything he said.
The best and greatest teaching from twi is strait out of the word. Study to show thyself approved.
If YOU can go to the word and prove a teaching then accept it. If YOU can't prove it. Walk out or shot the bastard.
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