I don't know John. The founders never intended this? I've given this a lot of thought over the years. On a level playing field, I'm not so sure that VPW's response to the same kind of situation wouldn't be similar. I don't think he ever intended to make a plan that would accomodate people who weren't 'standing' with the Way ministry. We were always 'welcome at the Way' but that was because we were part of the 'family'. But all the years I was there he never allowed people that weren't active members to come on the property without notice and go anywhere and do anything without permission and supervision.
Imagine VPW's still alive, and the Way has gone along it's way over the years, growing, etc. A bunch of people have left over disagreements with the VPW and the Way's teachings. Some of those people have family and friends who's remains were buried or cremated and scattered in the Way Woods. Now they want to come back and visit, pay respects. What would he do, how would he handle it?
It's hypothetical, but I think to understand the situation it has to be looked at like that. Because for some people they may be looking at it as if "were VPW alive, none of this would be happening". There's another side to it though. If in fact, VPW were alive and we had left the Way and were opposed to it and it's teachings and practices in whole or in part at that time, I think he'd have little tolerance for accomodating us. Yet, many of us remember a man who could be extremely warm and understanding too. Not so if you weren't on board with him though.
It's a difficult and messy situation because of the Way's beliefs about 'the household' of God. They have no respect for those who don't believe as they do in every detail. (If you do believe and participate they assume you'll be cooperative to their wishes, whatever they legislate.) Less so those who have 'known the truth' they teach and who 'depart from the faith' of their church. That teaching wasn't invented by Rosalie or Craig. It was taught by VPW. His conduct towards those who left the Way over the years leads me to believe that if he were there today in the President's position he wouldn't be happy about someone trying to march on the property and demand their 'rights' after they'd forsaken the 'household' of the Way. That's just some thoughts I've had.
But having said that, it doesn't change the fact that the current Way trustees could rise above their Way-genetic material and attempt to bring the involved parties together and work towards a dignified solution. Act with some diginity and leadership that would include embracing those whose lives and contributions helped to build the Way, reopen their hearts to the broader vision of God and Christ and the church. But they won't do that. They seem bent on keeping the non-members, people they know all too well, at a distance. Big surprise. I just don't expect much from them, ever.
Yeah, Socks, and Ex. I remember how he (they) felt about Dave Anderson and maybe even Peter Wade too. I did not know those men but in todays Internet era I have seen their works and Peter even teaches at fellowships in America including CFF and others. They seem like good Christian men who have wanted to help people.
All I can say is what I heard them (bot) say and what I heard them imply strongly. That people would always be welcome. I also saw them welcome people who had not been around for a long time or who were not attending fellowships. It's not like they invited them into their living rooms but they just sort of let people alone and allowed them to drop in on a Sunday or the ROA or whatever as long as they didn't cause any trouble. I saw a lot of this when I lived there for a year and was almost every Sunday on bless patrol, ushering and even a tour guide (ha).
The solution to this issue could have been as simple as that. Heck, there's not that many people who are interested in visiting anyway, maybe a few. Now it has become a standoff.
You guys probably know better than me what might have been. Yes, if someone were there to cause trouble the bot would have been defensive.
But if someone wanted to come and visit a family member or loved one whose remains were buried in The Woods I am certain VPW would have welcomed it and maybe even might have went out there with them.
I am also certain they would not have allowed this simple issue to escalate into the fiasco it has become. They were better "businessmen" than that if nothing else.
Yeah, Excie. We ain't in the Way Nash anymore, hey?
John, yeah. You're probably right and I don't know any better than anyone else really, I just had to give this a lot of thought the few years before I left for personal reasons. You wrote - "It's not like they invited them into their living rooms but they just sort of let people alone and allowed them to drop in on a Sunday or the ROA or whatever as long as they didn't cause any trouble."
That's the way I remember it, although if you took an active stance against the Way all bets were off. If you left and simply went about your business, there was less security 'in the old days' and if you didn't make a fuss you'd probably be left alone. People did leave and come back and they weren't thrown out at first sight. That's a different scenario but similar I guess.
Loose ends - I think the Trustees of old wouldn't have wanted loose ends and ties to people and things that weren't in, of and for the Way. They likely would have wanted to clear the decks, get something set that wouldn't intrude on life at the Way and go from there. Dunno.
OK, you two, I see you are wasting your bosses time on The Internet. Get back to work! (Cracks whip)
Back in the days when ya'll were on staff all those years I just can't imagine this kind of stupidity.
Doug was not a WayDaler or GreaseSpotter and was not even involved in TWI II. His issuee could have been handled immediately upon first attempt without TWI giving away their precious rights.
But to invite the man in and have a friendly talk with him, ask him what exactly is it that he wanted and allow it or make a few exceptions to the VERY FEW that would have even wanted to have bothered to come.....
.....to have a dialouge with affected parties. Make them feel welcome, tell them how much they appreciate the many years of service and all the help they have given people while they were in TWI............
It may have been all it took to solve this.
But I think TWI would feel as if they were compromising with Satan himself to dialogue with "copouts". Dummies....
Isn't it ironic...At one time anybody could walk onto the grounds and they were always made to feel welcome. When Martindale was booted, Rozilla had the perfect opprotunity to go back to an open door policy and begin to act like Christians again...but no, she chose to follow after the hardheartedness that was "prevailing". Makes me wonder how much of Martindales policies that she was responsible for to begin with.
Folks trusted twi with the remains of their loved ones....trusted that they would be able to visit on a yearly basis (roa) ...most of us moved around so much for ministry requirements...we had no place permanent to leave our precious ones....
Twi has betrayed our trust ...I honestly wonder if they are not just so mad at us for leaving, that they simply enjoy hurting us by witholding that which we want so badly...
What about that verse about not withholding *good* when it is in your power to give to someone?
You know if we won`t toe the line...we cannot buy ministry materials...take ministry classes ...taalk with or visit family members and friends still in...have access to the grounds and fascillities that we built with our labor and money...and while most of us can live without these things....the one way that they can still really hurt ...really twist the buried knife in our guts...is to deny us access to the sight of our loved one remains...
IMO ... the whole sign in/permission thing is an insult...yet another way for twi to retain power over someone...of making them jump through hoops at their leisure....it is what they have always loved....CONTROL!
It is insulting and demeaning....
The rest of the world sees it for what it REALLY is ... simple malicious cruelty.
P.S. Have you ever thought about the fact that while telling us that allowing them to sprinkle our loved ones ashes in the woods was a *good* thing....what is it that they did they do for themselves...the *important* folks?
Why they are buried with full honors in manicured plots with a special fountain designed .... special ligting ...makes you wonder if ANY of the big shots or their family members were mixed with the folks in the woods? Wonder if it was such a great idea ...why wasn`t it good enough for the rest of em?
Excathedra, I want to work in your department. Together we'll burn some Internet time for the good of our firm.
I would be very ....ed if I was not allowed to vist my Grandpa's grave site once in a while. Victor is such a good kid and a good Christian person. What has he done to TWI? He's only 20 for God's sake. He wasn't even born when those old farts were abusing their power and screwing things up.
Just because he chooses to go to CFF maybe..... but heck they have so many young people his age and they have such a great time, can you blame him?
Excie's got the hedge of protection going! She's whippin' it! :D-->
Maybe it's the emotional and intellectual property the Way wants to control. When a person who has left the Way visits VPW's gravesite, it's to remember and pay respects to something that the Way clearly wants to forget, old wineskin stuff. They probably figure it's okay for active Wayfers to do so, because they see it from the perfect perspective of the Prevailing Truth and they have everyone brain-frozen like Prevailing Popsicles. But for those to have left to do so...bad. All those toxic vibes circulating around the apple trees...bad. It'll sully the duck poop in the pond. Bad.
Doug means what he says and says what he means...literally. Not trying to quote VP. When he goes after TWI because there is sacred ground there promised to those buried there, Doug meant that.
This is not a show. This is for real. He means it. Whether people believe him or not.
John Are, we'll do that! You guys're cool. Need some cool, dry weather. Got any of that?
In a way, I respect the fact that some people would be willing to expose themselves to the filthy environment at the Way headquarters, to visit anything. It shows great strength. To have to be on the same land within a few yards of some of those goat-herders...it's something I decided a long time ago I wouldn't want to expose myself or my family to. Knowing their willingness to lie, change stories on a dime, follow the direction of anyone designated as a "spiritual leader"....nope. At best you're going to need a shower after breathing the same air as that bunch. But if a person wants to go that route, that's their decision. Doug is one person who was "there" for me at a time when not many were. So he and others who choose this route are in my prayers.
Doug, a graduate of the 3rd Corps, was our Limb Coordinator in 1976 when a whole group of us were in a program called Fellowlaborers. It was sort of a mini in-state Way Corps program. You basically lived and worked with your Limb Coordinator for a whole year, had classes, teachings, witnessing, etc. In our case it was very much like a Way Corps program because we all lived in the same apartment complex and had a whole section of it reserved for our purposes, including a meal room where we even ate together, complete with songs, announcements, the whole works. It was pretty cool.
Point is, you get to know a person pretty well when you are around them every day like that at work and play. We all respected him very much. We never saw him hurt or mistreat anyone. He is a man of love and kindness and one who genuiniely believes in God and the Bible and biblical principles. He also does not back down on commitments or promises he makes to people.
It is no surprise to me that he left long before the legalism and "Craigisms" of latter years of TWI set in because he was not the type to mistreat people. He is one who has tried to help and love people for years.
We all have people who may dislike us at times, but I have yet to meet anyone who disliked or even spoke negatively about Doug.... except current TWI leadership.
I think that VP would have been very amenable to having ex-followers come to the woods to visit their loved ones. Perhaps he thought he would be able to get them back into the TWI fold if they were welcomed. You catch a lot more flies with honey....
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socks
I don't know John. The founders never intended this? I've given this a lot of thought over the years. On a level playing field, I'm not so sure that VPW's response to the same kind of situation wouldn't be similar. I don't think he ever intended to make a plan that would accomodate people who weren't 'standing' with the Way ministry. We were always 'welcome at the Way' but that was because we were part of the 'family'. But all the years I was there he never allowed people that weren't active members to come on the property without notice and go anywhere and do anything without permission and supervision.
Imagine VPW's still alive, and the Way has gone along it's way over the years, growing, etc. A bunch of people have left over disagreements with the VPW and the Way's teachings. Some of those people have family and friends who's remains were buried or cremated and scattered in the Way Woods. Now they want to come back and visit, pay respects. What would he do, how would he handle it?
It's hypothetical, but I think to understand the situation it has to be looked at like that. Because for some people they may be looking at it as if "were VPW alive, none of this would be happening". There's another side to it though. If in fact, VPW were alive and we had left the Way and were opposed to it and it's teachings and practices in whole or in part at that time, I think he'd have little tolerance for accomodating us. Yet, many of us remember a man who could be extremely warm and understanding too. Not so if you weren't on board with him though.
It's a difficult and messy situation because of the Way's beliefs about 'the household' of God. They have no respect for those who don't believe as they do in every detail. (If you do believe and participate they assume you'll be cooperative to their wishes, whatever they legislate.) Less so those who have 'known the truth' they teach and who 'depart from the faith' of their church. That teaching wasn't invented by Rosalie or Craig. It was taught by VPW. His conduct towards those who left the Way over the years leads me to believe that if he were there today in the President's position he wouldn't be happy about someone trying to march on the property and demand their 'rights' after they'd forsaken the 'household' of the Way. That's just some thoughts I've had.
But having said that, it doesn't change the fact that the current Way trustees could rise above their Way-genetic material and attempt to bring the involved parties together and work towards a dignified solution. Act with some diginity and leadership that would include embracing those whose lives and contributions helped to build the Way, reopen their hearts to the broader vision of God and Christ and the church. But they won't do that. They seem bent on keeping the non-members, people they know all too well, at a distance. Big surprise. I just don't expect much from them, ever.
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excathedra
good post socks. shows me i still think of myself as a wayfer in some respects. how odd but true.
i forget how a "standing" wayfer would look at me
you are so right about wierwille. i've seen firsthand how he felt about copouts always being welcome at the way. not a pretty sight
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igotout
Yeah, Socks, and Ex. I remember how he (they) felt about Dave Anderson and maybe even Peter Wade too. I did not know those men but in todays Internet era I have seen their works and Peter even teaches at fellowships in America including CFF and others. They seem like good Christian men who have wanted to help people.
All I can say is what I heard them (bot) say and what I heard them imply strongly. That people would always be welcome. I also saw them welcome people who had not been around for a long time or who were not attending fellowships. It's not like they invited them into their living rooms but they just sort of let people alone and allowed them to drop in on a Sunday or the ROA or whatever as long as they didn't cause any trouble. I saw a lot of this when I lived there for a year and was almost every Sunday on bless patrol, ushering and even a tour guide (ha).
The solution to this issue could have been as simple as that. Heck, there's not that many people who are interested in visiting anyway, maybe a few. Now it has become a standoff.
You guys probably know better than me what might have been. Yes, if someone were there to cause trouble the bot would have been defensive.
But if someone wanted to come and visit a family member or loved one whose remains were buried in The Woods I am certain VPW would have welcomed it and maybe even might have went out there with them.
I am also certain they would not have allowed this simple issue to escalate into the fiasco it has become. They were better "businessmen" than that if nothing else.
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excathedra
i see what you mean, my dear tour guide
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socks
Yeah, Excie. We ain't in the Way Nash anymore, hey?
John, yeah. You're probably right and I don't know any better than anyone else really, I just had to give this a lot of thought the few years before I left for personal reasons. You wrote - "It's not like they invited them into their living rooms but they just sort of let people alone and allowed them to drop in on a Sunday or the ROA or whatever as long as they didn't cause any trouble."
That's the way I remember it, although if you took an active stance against the Way all bets were off. If you left and simply went about your business, there was less security 'in the old days' and if you didn't make a fuss you'd probably be left alone. People did leave and come back and they weren't thrown out at first sight. That's a different scenario but similar I guess.
Loose ends - I think the Trustees of old wouldn't have wanted loose ends and ties to people and things that weren't in, of and for the Way. They likely would have wanted to clear the decks, get something set that wouldn't intrude on life at the Way and go from there. Dunno.
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igotout
OK, you two, I see you are wasting your bosses time on The Internet. Get back to work! (Cracks whip)
Back in the days when ya'll were on staff all those years I just can't imagine this kind of stupidity.
Doug was not a WayDaler or GreaseSpotter and was not even involved in TWI II. His issuee could have been handled immediately upon first attempt without TWI giving away their precious rights.
But to invite the man in and have a friendly talk with him, ask him what exactly is it that he wanted and allow it or make a few exceptions to the VERY FEW that would have even wanted to have bothered to come.....
.....to have a dialouge with affected parties. Make them feel welcome, tell them how much they appreciate the many years of service and all the help they have given people while they were in TWI............
It may have been all it took to solve this.
But I think TWI would feel as if they were compromising with Satan himself to dialogue with "copouts". Dummies....
They need to get out more.
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houseisarockin
BINGO!!!!!
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rascal
Folks trusted twi with the remains of their loved ones....trusted that they would be able to visit on a yearly basis (roa) ...most of us moved around so much for ministry requirements...we had no place permanent to leave our precious ones....
Twi has betrayed our trust ...I honestly wonder if they are not just so mad at us for leaving, that they simply enjoy hurting us by witholding that which we want so badly...
What about that verse about not withholding *good* when it is in your power to give to someone?
You know if we won`t toe the line...we cannot buy ministry materials...take ministry classes ...taalk with or visit family members and friends still in...have access to the grounds and fascillities that we built with our labor and money...and while most of us can live without these things....the one way that they can still really hurt ...really twist the buried knife in our guts...is to deny us access to the sight of our loved one remains...
IMO ... the whole sign in/permission thing is an insult...yet another way for twi to retain power over someone...of making them jump through hoops at their leisure....it is what they have always loved....CONTROL!
It is insulting and demeaning....
The rest of the world sees it for what it REALLY is ... simple malicious cruelty.
P.S. Have you ever thought about the fact that while telling us that allowing them to sprinkle our loved ones ashes in the woods was a *good* thing....what is it that they did they do for themselves...the *important* folks?
Why they are buried with full honors in manicured plots with a special fountain designed .... special ligting ...makes you wonder if ANY of the big shots or their family members were mixed with the folks in the woods? Wonder if it was such a great idea ...why wasn`t it good enough for the rest of em?
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excathedra
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igotout
Excathedra, I want to work in your department. Together we'll burn some Internet time for the good of our firm.
I would be very ....ed if I was not allowed to vist my Grandpa's grave site once in a while. Victor is such a good kid and a good Christian person. What has he done to TWI? He's only 20 for God's sake. He wasn't even born when those old farts were abusing their power and screwing things up.
Just because he chooses to go to CFF maybe..... but heck they have so many young people his age and they have such a great time, can you blame him?
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socks
Excie's got the hedge of protection going! She's whippin' it!
:D-->
Maybe it's the emotional and intellectual property the Way wants to control. When a person who has left the Way visits VPW's gravesite, it's to remember and pay respects to something that the Way clearly wants to forget, old wineskin stuff. They probably figure it's okay for active Wayfers to do so, because they see it from the perfect perspective of the Prevailing Truth and they have everyone brain-frozen like Prevailing Popsicles. But for those to have left to do so...bad. All those toxic vibes circulating around the apple trees...bad. It'll sully the duck poop in the pond. Bad.
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igotout
Socks, if you ever come to Florida.....
you better visit us
I promise to keep all hurricanes away
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Eagle
Doug means what he says and says what he means...literally. Not trying to quote VP. When he goes after TWI because there is sacred ground there promised to those buried there, Doug meant that.
This is not a show. This is for real. He means it. Whether people believe him or not.
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excathedra
well i'm glad he's taking up for those buried there, poor things, would they have wanted that if they knew what would happen later ?
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Eagle
Ex,
Good point. I suppose that had they known TWI would collapse like it did, then they would have chosen a family funeral in their home towns.
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excathedra
it's a shame eagle no matter what way you look at it, you know ?
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Wonton Soup
Such a simple problem that could easily be resolved with a bit of kindness and good sense
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socks
John Are, we'll do that! You guys're cool. Need some cool, dry weather. Got any of that?
In a way, I respect the fact that some people would be willing to expose themselves to the filthy environment at the Way headquarters, to visit anything. It shows great strength. To have to be on the same land within a few yards of some of those goat-herders...it's something I decided a long time ago I wouldn't want to expose myself or my family to. Knowing their willingness to lie, change stories on a dime, follow the direction of anyone designated as a "spiritual leader"....nope. At best you're going to need a shower after breathing the same air as that bunch. But if a person wants to go that route, that's their decision. Doug is one person who was "there" for me at a time when not many were. So he and others who choose this route are in my prayers.
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igotout
For what it is worth,
Doug, a graduate of the 3rd Corps, was our Limb Coordinator in 1976 when a whole group of us were in a program called Fellowlaborers. It was sort of a mini in-state Way Corps program. You basically lived and worked with your Limb Coordinator for a whole year, had classes, teachings, witnessing, etc. In our case it was very much like a Way Corps program because we all lived in the same apartment complex and had a whole section of it reserved for our purposes, including a meal room where we even ate together, complete with songs, announcements, the whole works. It was pretty cool.
Point is, you get to know a person pretty well when you are around them every day like that at work and play. We all respected him very much. We never saw him hurt or mistreat anyone. He is a man of love and kindness and one who genuiniely believes in God and the Bible and biblical principles. He also does not back down on commitments or promises he makes to people.
It is no surprise to me that he left long before the legalism and "Craigisms" of latter years of TWI set in because he was not the type to mistreat people. He is one who has tried to help and love people for years.
We all have people who may dislike us at times, but I have yet to meet anyone who disliked or even spoke negatively about Doug.... except current TWI leadership.
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Hope R.
I think that VP would have been very amenable to having ex-followers come to the woods to visit their loved ones. Perhaps he thought he would be able to get them back into the TWI fold if they were welcomed. You catch a lot more flies with honey....
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