You and I have hardly ever DISAGREED about anything regarding twi....but this is one subject that I completely disagree with you about. The difference between twi1 and twi2.....is huge! I survived them both (personally, I think we can do our own SURVIVOR: NEW KNOXVILLE show.)
I have often thought of twi like this.....
for those of you that believe in the "evolution
theory of life, you will totally relate:
Twi1 was Lucy (in the sky with diamonds) the beginning, humanity in it's earliest form. Everything that man would become was contained there in the package, just the rough form, very rudimentary. TWI2 is "man in it's present form," highly evolved, the ability to think, reason, and be more vile and evil than poor Lucy could ever conceive of.
I have given this lots of thought, and can elaborate with you, want to do an exway blog?
The whole house of cards was built on one man, and his MOGFOT status. So yeah, I have to agree with you. :)-->
Radar, the reality of life in the cult might have changed radically after the first storm hit, but you gotta admit, the foundation was built on sand. It was doomed to sink. It might've looked pretty at first, but when the strong winds blew, and the waves came crashing in, the foundation was pretty shaky, and fell down taking a whole lot of unsuspecting folks with it.
Seems like Jesus talked about this very thing somewhere in the gospels? Maybe he was smarter than we give him credit for, or have ever thought about.
TWI-1 and TWI-2 were both rotten at the core. They may have manifested themselves differently (depending upon where/who you were), but both were still rotten. The rot in TWI-2 just came to the surface more.
Ah yes, the good old days of TWI-1, where most of us glassy-eyed followers were loving God and living "the Word" while the top leader was raking in millions, buying airplanes, boinking/raping whoever he could and was accountable to no one.
Who cares what VPW, CG and Howard were doing with the money and the babes? - we got "the Word" didn't we? -->
Disagreeing is good...I know you and I can do so without being rude to each other and maintaining respect.
One of the reasons why I believe that, at least on the local level, there appeared to be love of God and "moving the Word" in TWI-70's, was that the control mechanisms were not keeping up with the rapid numerical growth.
When I left New York in August 1980 there were nine or ten full size branches operating in what was known as Area (later Territory) One, which was Long Island, including Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island. There was a huge number of people, and the only Way Corps for all these people were J*ff & D**n* T*ler, the Area Coordinators. Every branch coordinator was non Way Corps, many of the twig leaders were not even advanced class grads.
People did what they thought God wanted them to do, not because that was the policy of TWI, but because TWI didn't know what they were doing. The mass exoduses of the late 80's made it easier for the top to control the bottom, not because the policies had changed, but because the ratio of leaders to non-leaders had shifted.
I think that it's evident that the intent to control was always there, but it took a while for the means to do so caught up.
I think that a key in understanding twi-1 was that it grew suddenly and it grew quickly. There was a large influx of young people that all came in at once during the early and mid 70's. A large number of these young people were hippie types. The lifestyle of these youngsters bordered, at times, on hedonism. That's why the early ROA's were somewhat unstructured and were more reminiscient of a rock concert than anything Christian.
Wierwille's followers were not ready, at that time, to become the disciplined corps that Veepee so wanted...it took time to instill discipline and structure. These same hippies all got haircuts, began washing windows and became the 6th-10th corps. By the time Wierwille had processed a few thousand of us through the corp, twi was ready for more structure and discipline out on the "field".
There was an evolution in the development of the whole thing. I believe that Veepee always wanted the military type discipline but was smart enough to know how far he could push people. Martindale on the other hand, was clueless when it came to knowing how hard and how far he could push people. I don't think there was much difference between twi-1 and 2 when it came to intent. In both cases, the structure and the workings of the cult were the same...centralized control. What Veepee started, LCM simply continued.
What made the biggest difference between 1 and 2 was the doctrinal changes. Where Wierwille emphasized "grace", Martindale emphasized "legalism". This eventually changed the general attitudes of the followers from warm and accepting...to cold and suspicious. It went from a friendly Christian, extending the right hand of fellowship, to a hardassed corps guy extending his middle finger.
So, I agree with Oak, in that "Martindale was more open about his position". Martindale could give his pitch, but he could never close the sale...that's why everybody told him to stick his loyalty oath in his arse. Veepee knew how to play the crowd perfectly. That was the big difference...style. Content was about the same.
But because of this "evolution", there was a difference between 1 an 2, in a practical sense. The early unstructured years were much more enjoyable than the later years of heavy legalism.
Yes. Agreeing with the other comments afforded here, and adding my own.
IMO -- twi-2 started with lcm, yet took a coupla years to "get up to steam". The transitional year or two (when the "mantle" was passed) were mostly "ssdd", but the authoritarian edicts of lcm started to finally reach even us, here in the Northland.
That is when I put on my "hiking shoes", and walked away. Back in Indiana, in the mid 70's was a good time for all of us that chose to be in the "fellowship". Up here in Minnesota, we were far removed from HQ, and as long as vpw was alive, and in power, it was business as usual, and when he decided to retire -------
I remember the meeting we were all at. Live phone hook-up, North Shore of Lake Superior, a "camp" of sorts that had log cabins, farm animals, etc.,
and D*na Ly*n was our area coordinator -- and when lcm was announced as the successor, I was watching her face, and saw an immediate smile break forth.
Well -- whatever lcm had to offer (at the time), surely showed up here in spades, so yes --- there was a difference. Docvic did his thing too, but somehow we escaped the "demands". After the transitional peiod, lcm became more and more demanding. I made the mistake of asking a question or two (during this time peiod), and managed to get myself M&A.
Yup -- twi-1 was different. Not better, just different. -->
quote:Who cares what VPW, CG and Howard were doing with the money and the babes? - we got "the Word" didn't we?
Yes we got the Word, absolutely.
Who cares about how VPW conducted his life? Lots of folks do and have pain and consternation over it. Unfortunately, at the time, we couldn't do anything about it cause most of us were out of touch with his secret sins. How were we to know? Only folks that knew, I suppose, were the ones directly involved with all that.
Wierwille's secret sins doesn't negate the godliness manifested in twi-1. Heck, lots of folks got born again, with lots of other goodies. You gonna call that rotten? Not me.
quote:Who cares what VPW, CG and Howard were doing with the money and the babes? - we got "the Word" didn't we?
Yes we got the Word, absolutely.
Who cares about how VPW conducted his life? Lots of folks do and have pain and consternation over it. Unfortunately, at the time, we couldn't do anything about it cause most of us were out of touch with his secret sins. How were we to know? Only folks that knew, I suppose, were the ones directly involved with all that.
Wierwille's secret sins doesn't negate the godliness manifested in twi-1. Heck, lots of folks got born again, with lots of other goodies. You gonna call that rotten? Not me.
:)-->
Sorry OM I think his sins do negate all the good. The actions of a teacher has to match the words he speaks. Since Wierwille taught heresy,he lived it as well. It is the only way for him.
So with all the heresy we learned, we went out and became mind-numb minions for the docktor.
I think we learn from Greasespot Cafe and the continued existence of twi and the offshoots that lots of folks believe they received truth from twi, and it's up to the individual to decide for themselves whether it makes sense or not. Experences vary.
quote:Sorry OM I think his sins do negate all the good.
Perfection is in the Lord. People sin. But God's Kingdom was never out of business because of man's sins; thank God for that continuous theme in the bible and history.
No, seriously, I believe that there was a difference, not at headquarters but out on the field. Maybe VP did want the military obedience that LCM demanded, but it never showed to the "rank and file," so we went merrily on our ways, fellowshipping and preaching the Word. Oakspear's comment that it was the followers-to-leaders ratio that kept things light is interesting, but I think he puts the cart before the horse. If LCM hadn't gotten so hardnosed, there might still be hundreds of fellowships, even branches, run by non-Corps.
I learned a lot from VP's WORDS. Heck, I even learned some good stuff from LCM, when he wasn't ranting about warfare on the moon or microwaves; but I sure enjoyed the warmth of fellowship more in the earlier days. That's what separates TWI-1 from TWI-2, to me.
I'm leaving for the Weenie Roast in an hour, so you're all going to have to carry on without me :P-->
To expand on my position: it's not that there weren't good things in the 70's and bad things in the 90's in TWI. Certainly there was. I contend that it was merely a difference in degree, not a basic, fundamental difference; that the obvious legalism and top-down control under Martindale had it's roots with Wierwille. There was little that Martindale taught that didn't have it's origin in Wierwille's teaching or example.
I think it is a mistake to view TWI as two distinct entities: TWI-1 and TWI-2, as if there were little or no bad in the TWI of the 70's and no good in TWI of the 90's. And don't forget that TWI had been incorporated for close to twenty years when a lot of us got involved in the mid-seventies. (I'm assuming a 1955 incorporation - not sure if that's correct). How many folks (or perhaps more significantly, what percentage) bailed out in the fifties, the early sixties, or early seventies because of the changes that they perceived?
A final thought: I believe that we should all (myself included ) beware the thinking that the time that we left was the best, the most obvious, when things really turned ungodly, as if all that left before us were cop-outs or "carnal", and those that left after us were idiots who couldn't see how bad things were.
Hay. I only knew about TWI -1. I don't consider myself to be a hippie type (I'm a certified red neck), hedonism was discouraged(well it did happen a few times), and the ROA was organized and was a Christian meeting. It only went down hill when they moved it to headquarters.
The only real differance between 1 & 2 was how long it took the average joe to see the light and get the hell out.
It only took me moving 200 miles and saying by to all my friends.
quote:...that the obvious legalism and top-down control under Martindale had it's roots with Wierwille. ...
Disagreement here. Wierwille's harshest criticisms come from license, not legalism.
I believe legalism in all of twi manifested under LCM's watch, because beginning in the early to middle 1990's, he was taking counsel and advice from Rosalie and Donna. Folks in the know have maintained this, that when LCM started following their counsel (chiefly Rosalie's), that's when the destructive legalism actually took root. I believe their claims.
The attitude I try to have when someone's let me down enough to kill my soul and taken advantage of me -- I try to move on and focus on the good things in my life, build on them, and leave behind the past hurt, and I try my best to forgive. It's sometimes difficult, sometimes seem impossible, and I do fail; but it's one of God's commandments and when I actually do it, I see the benefits of doing the Word.
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Radar OReilly
Oak,
You and I have hardly ever DISAGREED about anything regarding twi....but this is one subject that I completely disagree with you about. The difference between twi1 and twi2.....is huge! I survived them both (personally, I think we can do our own SURVIVOR: NEW KNOXVILLE show.)
I have often thought of twi like this.....
for those of you that believe in the "evolution
theory of life, you will totally relate:
Twi1 was Lucy (in the sky with diamonds) the beginning, humanity in it's earliest form. Everything that man would become was contained there in the package, just the rough form, very rudimentary. TWI2 is "man in it's present form," highly evolved, the ability to think, reason, and be more vile and evil than poor Lucy could ever conceive of.
I have given this lots of thought, and can elaborate with you, want to do an exway blog?
Love you Oak! You know I do, sorry to disagree.
ROR
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ex10
Oak
The whole house of cards was built on one man, and his MOGFOT status. So yeah, I have to agree with you.
:)-->
Radar, the reality of life in the cult might have changed radically after the first storm hit, but you gotta admit, the foundation was built on sand. It was doomed to sink. It might've looked pretty at first, but when the strong winds blew, and the waves came crashing in, the foundation was pretty shaky, and fell down taking a whole lot of unsuspecting folks with it.
Seems like Jesus talked about this very thing somewhere in the gospels? Maybe he was smarter than we give him credit for, or have ever thought about.
Just my assessment.
:)-->
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oenophile
I experienced twi2 as twi1 on steroids, more of the same just more intense.
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Goey
TWI-1 and TWI-2 were both rotten at the core. They may have manifested themselves differently (depending upon where/who you were), but both were still rotten. The rot in TWI-2 just came to the surface more.
Ah yes, the good old days of TWI-1, where most of us glassy-eyed followers were loving God and living "the Word" while the top leader was raking in millions, buying airplanes, boinking/raping whoever he could and was accountable to no one.
Who cares what VPW, CG and Howard were doing with the money and the babes? - we got "the Word" didn't we?
-->
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Oakspear
Radar:
Disagreeing is good...I know you and I can do so without being rude to each other and maintaining respect.
One of the reasons why I believe that, at least on the local level, there appeared to be love of God and "moving the Word" in TWI-70's, was that the control mechanisms were not keeping up with the rapid numerical growth.
When I left New York in August 1980 there were nine or ten full size branches operating in what was known as Area (later Territory) One, which was Long Island, including Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island. There was a huge number of people, and the only Way Corps for all these people were J*ff & D**n* T*ler, the Area Coordinators. Every branch coordinator was non Way Corps, many of the twig leaders were not even advanced class grads.
People did what they thought God wanted them to do, not because that was the policy of TWI, but because TWI didn't know what they were doing. The mass exoduses of the late 80's made it easier for the top to control the bottom, not because the policies had changed, but because the ratio of leaders to non-leaders had shifted.
I think that it's evident that the intent to control was always there, but it took a while for the means to do so caught up.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think that a key in understanding twi-1 was that it grew suddenly and it grew quickly. There was a large influx of young people that all came in at once during the early and mid 70's. A large number of these young people were hippie types. The lifestyle of these youngsters bordered, at times, on hedonism. That's why the early ROA's were somewhat unstructured and were more reminiscient of a rock concert than anything Christian.
Wierwille's followers were not ready, at that time, to become the disciplined corps that Veepee so wanted...it took time to instill discipline and structure. These same hippies all got haircuts, began washing windows and became the 6th-10th corps. By the time Wierwille had processed a few thousand of us through the corp, twi was ready for more structure and discipline out on the "field".
There was an evolution in the development of the whole thing. I believe that Veepee always wanted the military type discipline but was smart enough to know how far he could push people. Martindale on the other hand, was clueless when it came to knowing how hard and how far he could push people. I don't think there was much difference between twi-1 and 2 when it came to intent. In both cases, the structure and the workings of the cult were the same...centralized control. What Veepee started, LCM simply continued.
What made the biggest difference between 1 and 2 was the doctrinal changes. Where Wierwille emphasized "grace", Martindale emphasized "legalism". This eventually changed the general attitudes of the followers from warm and accepting...to cold and suspicious. It went from a friendly Christian, extending the right hand of fellowship, to a hardassed corps guy extending his middle finger.
So, I agree with Oak, in that "Martindale was more open about his position". Martindale could give his pitch, but he could never close the sale...that's why everybody told him to stick his loyalty oath in his arse. Veepee knew how to play the crowd perfectly. That was the big difference...style. Content was about the same.
But because of this "evolution", there was a difference between 1 an 2, in a practical sense. The early unstructured years were much more enjoyable than the later years of heavy legalism.
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dmiller
Yes. Agreeing with the other comments afforded here, and adding my own.
IMO -- twi-2 started with lcm, yet took a coupla years to "get up to steam". The transitional year or two (when the "mantle" was passed) were mostly "ssdd", but the authoritarian edicts of lcm started to finally reach even us, here in the Northland.
That is when I put on my "hiking shoes", and walked away. Back in Indiana, in the mid 70's was a good time for all of us that chose to be in the "fellowship". Up here in Minnesota, we were far removed from HQ, and as long as vpw was alive, and in power, it was business as usual, and when he decided to retire -------
I remember the meeting we were all at. Live phone hook-up, North Shore of Lake Superior, a "camp" of sorts that had log cabins, farm animals, etc.,
and D*na Ly*n was our area coordinator -- and when lcm was announced as the successor, I was watching her face, and saw an immediate smile break forth.
Well -- whatever lcm had to offer (at the time), surely showed up here in spades, so yes --- there was a difference. Docvic did his thing too, but somehow we escaped the "demands". After the transitional peiod, lcm became more and more demanding. I made the mistake of asking a question or two (during this time peiod), and managed to get myself M&A.
Yup -- twi-1 was different. Not better, just different.
-->
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oldiesman
Who cares about how VPW conducted his life? Lots of folks do and have pain and consternation over it. Unfortunately, at the time, we couldn't do anything about it cause most of us were out of touch with his secret sins. How were we to know? Only folks that knew, I suppose, were the ones directly involved with all that.
Wierwille's secret sins doesn't negate the godliness manifested in twi-1. Heck, lots of folks got born again, with lots of other goodies. You gonna call that rotten? Not me.
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def59
Sorry OM I think his sins do negate all the good. The actions of a teacher has to match the words he speaks. Since Wierwille taught heresy,he lived it as well. It is the only way for him.
So with all the heresy we learned, we went out and became mind-numb minions for the docktor.
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oldiesman
One man's heresy is another man's truth. ...
I think we learn from Greasespot Cafe and the continued existence of twi and the offshoots that lots of folks believe they received truth from twi, and it's up to the individual to decide for themselves whether it makes sense or not. Experences vary.
Perfection is in the Lord. People sin. But God's Kingdom was never out of business because of man's sins; thank God for that continuous theme in the bible and history.Link to comment
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GeorgeStGeorge
I agree with all of you.
No, seriously, I believe that there was a difference, not at headquarters but out on the field. Maybe VP did want the military obedience that LCM demanded, but it never showed to the "rank and file," so we went merrily on our ways, fellowshipping and preaching the Word. Oakspear's comment that it was the followers-to-leaders ratio that kept things light is interesting, but I think he puts the cart before the horse. If LCM hadn't gotten so hardnosed, there might still be hundreds of fellowships, even branches, run by non-Corps.
I learned a lot from VP's WORDS. Heck, I even learned some good stuff from LCM, when he wasn't ranting about warfare on the moon or microwaves; but I sure enjoyed the warmth of fellowship more in the earlier days. That's what separates TWI-1 from TWI-2, to me.
George
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Oakspear
I'm leaving for the Weenie Roast in an hour, so you're all going to have to carry on without me
:P-->
To expand on my position: it's not that there weren't good things in the 70's and bad things in the 90's in TWI. Certainly there was. I contend that it was merely a difference in degree, not a basic, fundamental difference; that the obvious legalism and top-down control under Martindale had it's roots with Wierwille. There was little that Martindale taught that didn't have it's origin in Wierwille's teaching or example.
I think it is a mistake to view TWI as two distinct entities: TWI-1 and TWI-2, as if there were little or no bad in the TWI of the 70's and no good in TWI of the 90's. And don't forget that TWI had been incorporated for close to twenty years when a lot of us got involved in the mid-seventies. (I'm assuming a 1955 incorporation - not sure if that's correct). How many folks (or perhaps more significantly, what percentage) bailed out in the fifties, the early sixties, or early seventies because of the changes that they perceived?
A final thought: I believe that we should all (myself included
) beware the thinking that the time that we left was the best, the most obvious, when things really turned ungodly, as if all that left before us were cop-outs or "carnal", and those that left after us were idiots who couldn't see how bad things were.
Have a good weekend!
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excathedra
myth.... dat's riiight
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ex70sHouston
Hay. I only knew about TWI -1. I don't consider myself to be a hippie type (I'm a certified red neck), hedonism was discouraged(well it did happen a few times), and the ROA was organized and was a Christian meeting. It only went down hill when they moved it to headquarters.
The only real differance between 1 & 2 was how long it took the average joe to see the light and get the hell out.
It only took me moving 200 miles and saying by to all my friends.
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excathedra
were they "manifested" differently ? of course ? can you compare them ? of course
you show me the kind of abuse you were willing to put up with and i'll show you which phase of the cult you were in....
don't kid yourself, the forehead was touched by the master's hand.... same with the bus driver and too many others to mention....
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oldiesman
I believe legalism in all of twi manifested under LCM's watch, because beginning in the early to middle 1990's, he was taking counsel and advice from Rosalie and Donna. Folks in the know have maintained this, that when LCM started following their counsel (chiefly Rosalie's), that's when the destructive legalism actually took root. I believe their claims.
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excathedra
wake up already
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oldiesman
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Steve!
That's like telling someone who survived Auschwitz "just get over it already!"
"I don't care who got hurt or how badly.
I got the Wuuuuuurd! I got mine - who cares about you?"
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excathedra
you didn't answer the question om
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oldiesman
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excathedra
which do you prefer, license or legalism ?
you really need to try and understand the heart and hurt of life
but i don't know if i can help you there
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Steve!
Well, om, nobody will ever accuse you of being overly sensitive, or even of having any empathy whatsoever.
You must wear Kmart underwear.
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oldiesman
Viewpoints vary.
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