Well...as far as in depth spiritual perception manifested by ol vp......boy how bout who he chose was to succede him eh?
Nothing but sense knowledge there....
Do you honestly believe that ANY other person EVER affiliated with the whole way ministry could have run it into the ground ANY faster?
His best Bud Howard was a real piece of work .... as was howards wife that was a terror to so many ...
Rosalie was a beast to those under her...auntie em watched soaps every day...craig was to busy forcing his attentions on unwilling participants....
I`m telling you...by every standard of criteria vp taught us through the years to go by....his choices have revealed in blinding technicolor as to how spiritually astute and tuned into God he was....
It was a pity so many trusted his integrety and judgement and were hurt.
Well I remeber vp himself saying that the ONLY proof of whether any given revelation was genuine or not was by the eventual outcome...
I`d say judging from the outcome of his choices and judging by vp`s very own standard...his *spiritual discernment* abilities were sadly lacking.
I don`t think the ministry could have failed any more spectacularlyt than it has....and thats saying alot with how many tens of thousands of us fought for prayed for it`s survival with everything we had to give.
There wasn't anything in my question about guaranteeing anyone's actions. However, if I'm in charge, I AM responsible for monitoring the performance of those who report to me. If someone is working for me who lacks honesty, for example, I need to take remedial action or take them out of a position of responsibility. My question was
1. IF she was/is a lesbian
2 VP felt being one would disqualify her to be corps or any kind of leader
3. THEN where was his judgement and/or spiritual perception?
Was he not sharp enough to catch such blatant behavior? She worked very closely with him over the years. If he didn't catch it when it was right under his nose, how sharp could the guy be?
Of course, my views on responsibility assume a group deals in reality unlike the Way Irrational.
quote:However, if I'm in charge, I AM responsible for monitoring the performance of those who report to me. If someone is working for me who lacks honesty, for example, I need to take remedial action or take them out of a position of responsibility. My question was
1. IF she was/is a lesbian
2 VP felt being one would disqualify her to be corps or any kind of leader
3. THEN where was his judgement and/or spiritual perception?
So then you're suggesting that VP knew that Rosalie Rivenbark was a practicing lesbian?
Nice try, OM. I won't take the bait. My question was if there is proof that she is, why would VP not have caught it? I have nothing to prove as I never said he knew. In fact, if he didn't know, it's even worse for his credibility.
quote:My question was if there is proof that she is, why would VP not have caught it?
What makes you believe that there was proof when VPW was alive? Come on JustThinking, just think about what you're just thinking about what you're suggesting and if you have proof, then show us the beef.
There is an entire thread where I asked about the existence of proof on the topic. I have no proof as I never met VPW and do not know Rosie or Donna. That is why I phrased my question as conditional. "If she is", for example. It would be wrong for me to say it otherwise as I do not know either way.
However, my question is, IF she is, what does it say about his spiritual perception?
I'll put it to you, OM. If she was a lesbian while working for VP, how would it affect your view of his spiritual perception? Should he have caught something so significant?
It sure as heck says something, OM --- just U do not like what it says... he was a vain man, OM.... U did not see that, apparently...
others here have testified how FOX-y lady syrupped him up and he bought it, hook, line and sinker... were U there, OM??????? ...I was, Linda Z was, Sunesis was, many others... but NOT U, OM....why not stick a sock in it when U are just babbling about what U do obviously not have a clue and not for the first time, either....
OM: "No man can guarantee the actions of another ..."
No, but it doesn't take a whole bunch of revelation to figure out if someone's unqualified and unsuitable for positions of responsibility. I've always said that VP's lack in this area was one of his greatest weaknesses.
Examples:
1. putting RFR, already known to be a controlling, legalistic, manipulative person, in charge of University of Life AND Way Productions AND Way Publications.
2. putting a still-wet-behind-the-ears LCM in charge of the Way Corps at age 20-something
3. letting Emogene Allen gain more and more control (besides the bookstore operation, she was also ultimately in charge of Way Pub before Rosie took over).
I can think of many more.
VP used to say, "Sometimes you have to put up with people's weaknesses to benefit from their longsuits." I think he failed to weigh the true pluses and minuses in too many cases.
quote:However, my question is, IF she is, what does it say about his spiritual perception?
I'll put it to you, OM. If she was a lesbian while working for VP, how would it affect your view of his spiritual perception? Should he have caught something so significant?
If I have my facts correct, Rosalie was a married woman with child who got a divorce. Later on after VPW's death, presumably in the 1990's, rumors surfaced that Rosalie might be having sex with Donna Martindale. So to answer your question, I haven't seen any evidence that Rosalie was having same sex when VPW was alive, much less that he knew about something like that; so no, it has nothing to do with his spiritual judgment in allowing Rosalie to handle ministry functions. VPW wasn't a "Genuine Spiritual Suspicion" man; that came with Craig. Heck, I don't even know if Rosalie's really a lesbian -- cause experts tell us that there are all kinds of gradations of sexual orientation, and maybe Rosalie isn't lesbian at all but bisexual, who knows?
You're starting with an assumption that Rosalie is gay, which you don't know, then building on it with another assumption, that VPW might have known. You're out of gas, JustThinking. Unless you can prove otherwise ...
quote:VP used to say, "Sometimes you have to put up with people's weaknesses to benefit from their longsuits." I think he failed to weigh the true pluses and minuses in too many cases.
Linda Z, my view is, he did the best he could under the circumstances. Yeah, Craig was a novice coordinator who made lots and lots of mistakes; and I saw proof of that from being in the Sick Corps for a few months. And who was around to do a better job? If anyone was, don't you think VPW would have put that person in charge? He wanted the thing to work, didn't he?
I think you have to take what you've got and make the best of it; that's how I view VPW's handling of Craig, Rosalie and gang.
Steve!, instead of spewing insults, why not try to defend JustThinking's points by facts and logic, if you can. (in this case, I don't think you can because I don't think JustThinking has any facts to back up his supposition.)
I don't reply to the items in your posts because there would be no point to it. You are either deliberately obtuse or you really just don't understand what people are trying to say. It's like trying to argue with a scarecrow.
Instead of that, whether I accept your facts/logic or not, there are other folks viewing our posts who may accept what you're saying, and at least you'd be making some sense instead of writing insults. And I'd be more inclined to accept what you're writing if it makes logical sense. Try it.
So then your belief is that VPW set up twi and various programs just to make money? In order to know that, you'd have to know exactly what was his motive and heart behind his decisions. But I'm not going to speculate and/or falsely accuse in those areas; God is the ultimate heart searcher and He knows the score and has complete wisdom and perfect understanding of folks' hearts and motives, not us.
Incompetant or corrupt...in EITHER case would you want to trust your spiritual health to his version of spirituality?
Judging by the fruit in his life (as I might have hinted before that galations recomends as prudent;-) ...given the evidence, Id have to lean towards his actions as branding him corrupt.
I absolutely strenuously object to you saying that Craig and rosie and howard were the *best* that vp had available...Gawd there were so many many individuals that manifested the fruit of the spirit in their lives.....So many many outstanding folks that were kind hearted ...truly cared for the believers that they would have had charge of....would have been a true leader by being the greatest servant....
I do not think that he could have POSSIBLY chosen anybody with less morals and character in Loy or howard...nor a bigger bully than rosy or auntie em....I do not imagine that he could have chosen ANYONE who could have grievously hurt so many...some betrayed to the point of death....
He certainly couldn`t have picked anybody who would have wittled down the ministries tens (hundreds?) of millions of dollars not to mention run off tens of thousands of productive followers....than the clowns that he placed in charge...
It is quite laughable to think that he could have chosen any more poorly.
So ...the big question...did they come to twi vile abusive and cruel...or did association with vp inspire them to embrase evil?
quote:Gawd there were so many many individuals that manifested the fruit of the spirit in their lives.....So many many outstanding folks that were kind hearted ...truly cared for the believers that they would have had charge of....would have been a true leader by being the greatest servant....
The existance of good people does not make an organization good. They have existed in the worst of places. TWI, based on it's overall impact, falls close to or in the category of worst of places.
OM,
You're doing a nice job of redirecting again.
The question was regarding VPs discernment IF, IF, IF, IF, IF (there, did I say it enough for you?) Rosie was a lesbian, what does it say about his spiritual perception?
(Oh, yes, VP could not guarantee her behavior any more than anyone else. Forgot that one.)
Normally, I think conversations can flow however people want them to but there is an historical pattern of redirecting things away from VP with various techniques.
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rascal
Well...as far as in depth spiritual perception manifested by ol vp......boy how bout who he chose was to succede him eh?
Nothing but sense knowledge there....
Do you honestly believe that ANY other person EVER affiliated with the whole way ministry could have run it into the ground ANY faster?
His best Bud Howard was a real piece of work .... as was howards wife that was a terror to so many ...
Rosalie was a beast to those under her...auntie em watched soaps every day...craig was to busy forcing his attentions on unwilling participants....
I`m telling you...by every standard of criteria vp taught us through the years to go by....his choices have revealed in blinding technicolor as to how spiritually astute and tuned into God he was....
It was a pity so many trusted his integrety and judgement and were hurt.
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oldiesman
Nothing. ...
No man can guarantee the actions of another ...
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rascal
Well I remeber vp himself saying that the ONLY proof of whether any given revelation was genuine or not was by the eventual outcome...
I`d say judging from the outcome of his choices and judging by vp`s very own standard...his *spiritual discernment* abilities were sadly lacking.
I don`t think the ministry could have failed any more spectacularlyt than it has....and thats saying alot with how many tens of thousands of us fought for prayed for it`s survival with everything we had to give.
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JustThinking
OM quote:
"Nothing. ...
No man can guarantee the actions of another .."
There wasn't anything in my question about guaranteeing anyone's actions. However, if I'm in charge, I AM responsible for monitoring the performance of those who report to me. If someone is working for me who lacks honesty, for example, I need to take remedial action or take them out of a position of responsibility. My question was
1. IF she was/is a lesbian
2 VP felt being one would disqualify her to be corps or any kind of leader
3. THEN where was his judgement and/or spiritual perception?
Was he not sharp enough to catch such blatant behavior? She worked very closely with him over the years. If he didn't catch it when it was right under his nose, how sharp could the guy be?
Of course, my views on responsibility assume a group deals in reality unlike the Way Irrational.
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oldiesman
So then you're suggesting that VP knew that Rosalie Rivenbark was a practicing lesbian?
Prove it.
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Steve!
om, if docvic(praise be his name) was as spiritually sharp as you think he was, he would have known.
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JustThinking
Nice try, OM. I won't take the bait. My question was if there is proof that she is, why would VP not have caught it? I have nothing to prove as I never said he knew. In fact, if he didn't know, it's even worse for his credibility.
Back to the question at hand.
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oldiesman
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JustThinking
OM,
There is an entire thread where I asked about the existence of proof on the topic. I have no proof as I never met VPW and do not know Rosie or Donna. That is why I phrased my question as conditional. "If she is", for example. It would be wrong for me to say it otherwise as I do not know either way.
However, my question is, IF she is, what does it say about his spiritual perception?
I'll put it to you, OM. If she was a lesbian while working for VP, how would it affect your view of his spiritual perception? Should he have caught something so significant?
JT
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alfakat
Thus spake OM-a-thusra...:
"
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Linda Z
OM: "No man can guarantee the actions of another ..."
No, but it doesn't take a whole bunch of revelation to figure out if someone's unqualified and unsuitable for positions of responsibility. I've always said that VP's lack in this area was one of his greatest weaknesses.
Examples:
1. putting RFR, already known to be a controlling, legalistic, manipulative person, in charge of University of Life AND Way Productions AND Way Publications.
2. putting a still-wet-behind-the-ears LCM in charge of the Way Corps at age 20-something
3. letting Emogene Allen gain more and more control (besides the bookstore operation, she was also ultimately in charge of Way Pub before Rosie took over).
I can think of many more.
VP used to say, "Sometimes you have to put up with people's weaknesses to benefit from their longsuits." I think he failed to weigh the true pluses and minuses in too many cases.
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papajohn
personaly, I think VP knew it all and used it for his own gain.
the proof is in the pudding
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oldiesman
You're starting with an assumption that Rosalie is gay, which you don't know, then building on it with another assumption, that VPW might have known. You're out of gas, JustThinking. Unless you can prove otherwise ...
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oldiesman
I think you have to take what you've got and make the best of it; that's how I view VPW's handling of Craig, Rosalie and gang.
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Steve!
om, you post nothing BUT gas.
There is no length you will not go to to make excuses for docvic(praise be his name).
Your lips are sutured to his hind end. If you could bear his child you would.
And it's Kmart gas, definitely Kmart.
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oldiesman
Steve!, instead of spewing insults, why not try to defend JustThinking's points by facts and logic, if you can. (in this case, I don't think you can because I don't think JustThinking has any facts to back up his supposition.)
Try that because insults only cloud the issue.
I hate Kmart
Walmart is better
:)-->
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Steve!
I don't reply to the items in your posts because there would be no point to it. You are either deliberately obtuse or you really just don't understand what people are trying to say. It's like trying to argue with a scarecrow.
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oldiesman
What's the point of spewing insults?
Instead of that, whether I accept your facts/logic or not, there are other folks viewing our posts who may accept what you're saying, and at least you'd be making some sense instead of writing insults. And I'd be more inclined to accept what you're writing if it makes logical sense. Try it.
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WordWolf
A) You haven't yet-why should he think you'd start now?
He has as much evidence that loyboy has reformed and is now a
model Christian living quietly and humbly.
B) vpw either walked with great revelation or he did not.
If he DID, he failed majorly by handing out important positions
to people who were unqualified to hold them, to the detriment
of LARGE NUMBERS of people who had to deal with them
(the Bookstore, the way corpse, etc.)
If he wanted to give a cushy, "make-work" job without harming
people, he could have made up a bs job. It would have wasted
money but hurt no one. However, he was more concerned with the
money he'd lose, and having the unreserved loyalty of them.
If he did NOT, then he was a fraud and lied intentionally about
the deep spiritual walk and decision-making.
So, either it was accidental, or intentional.
He was incompetent, or corrupt.
Now, that was presented as a case using as evidence the
testimony in this thread.
What are the Greek's odds you'll agree?
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oldiesman
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rascal
Incompetant or corrupt...in EITHER case would you want to trust your spiritual health to his version of spirituality?
Judging by the fruit in his life (as I might have hinted before that galations recomends as prudent;-) ...given the evidence, Id have to lean towards his actions as branding him corrupt.
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rascal
I absolutely strenuously object to you saying that Craig and rosie and howard were the *best* that vp had available...Gawd there were so many many individuals that manifested the fruit of the spirit in their lives.....So many many outstanding folks that were kind hearted ...truly cared for the believers that they would have had charge of....would have been a true leader by being the greatest servant....
I do not think that he could have POSSIBLY chosen anybody with less morals and character in Loy or howard...nor a bigger bully than rosy or auntie em....I do not imagine that he could have chosen ANYONE who could have grievously hurt so many...some betrayed to the point of death....
He certainly couldn`t have picked anybody who would have wittled down the ministries tens (hundreds?) of millions of dollars not to mention run off tens of thousands of productive followers....than the clowns that he placed in charge...
It is quite laughable to think that he could have chosen any more poorly.
So ...the big question...did they come to twi vile abusive and cruel...or did association with vp inspire them to embrase evil?
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oldiesman
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JustThinking
The existance of good people does not make an organization good. They have existed in the worst of places. TWI, based on it's overall impact, falls close to or in the category of worst of places.
OM,
You're doing a nice job of redirecting again.
The question was regarding VPs discernment IF, IF, IF, IF, IF (there, did I say it enough for you?) Rosie was a lesbian, what does it say about his spiritual perception?
(Oh, yes, VP could not guarantee her behavior any more than anyone else. Forgot that one.)
Normally, I think conversations can flow however people want them to but there is an historical pattern of redirecting things away from VP with various techniques.
Back to our regularly scheduled programming...
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