phone calls, schmone calls --- the bot had been opening the "lines of communication" for 3+ years at that point. The Evan was on staff at the beginning of the fiasco; ask him how well questions were received and handled.
If it was SO freakin great, OM ---- how come it did not work out jimm dandy?? cuz it was bs, OM, allofit!!!! Geer, loy, blow hard howw-erdd and Don-boy. I will grant you, DEW was the most approachable and the least of the problem children but all in all, it was smoke, OM------ NOTHING CHANGED...
Wordwolf, I don't know the letter you're referring to. Can I have a copy?
(snip)
quote: Yes-you're justifying yourself by making villains out of the other guy, claiming you read his mind and know the reasons the average NY'er left. BTW, I didn't hear any of that back then....
My opinion about the pot calling the kettle black is for the people who were accusing us of being Carnal Thinkers -- chiefly, Vince F. There were others too. But I do believe that most folks (average believers) who left were following their local leadership without examining the other side of the coin and confronting the BOT with the apprehensions. For instance, how many folks actually called headquarters to make an attempt to speak to one of the trustees? Very few. I happen to know for a fact that Don Wierwille was taking phone calls from anyone who would listen, back in those days. I personally asked my twig coordinators to do that, call Don and voice their concerns to him, but they refused. I eventually left their twig, because they couldn't give a fig about what I thought.
A) The letters were discussed here before.
Those were the ones where all the staff were named that were
being fired. I posed it then but I'm not retyping it now.
It was the first time lcm used the "mark and avoid" gambit.
According to the previous discussion, the thing was a form letter.
Every state got the same letter, with the exception of the names,
which were different for each state.
What I posted above was a less-diplomatic paraphrase of it.
(You can try a search on the previous discussion, maybe.)
B) I disagree with what you said about "the average believer."
I was in touch with Christians all over the country at the time.
(Before the internet, even! :)--> )
MANY sent letters and got back snippy replies.
Responses were variations of "don't worry about that-just follow
our instructions." That's when I scrapped my own letter which I
was working on. Mail replies were definitely curt.
I also took the liberty of posing my questions
FACE TO FACE
on grounds.
The responses all confirmed what the letter told me.
Leadership at hq were acting and planning in a non-Christian way,
and were more concerned with loyalty and obedience than in
godly edifying.
What happened when you posted your questions face to face, OM?
I know for a fact I was not the ONLY one who went face to face.
Me, I was threatened with physical violence....
This scared me not one bit and only provided the nail in the
coffin. Some people can't be coerced by brand loyalty nor
intimidation. From what I saw, those who stayed had zeal, but
the brains had largely left.
(Judging from a nonrepresentative sampling I took across an ROA.)
quote:What I posted above was a less-diplomatic paraphrase of it. (You can try a search on the previous discussion, maybe.)
That's why I asked for the exact letter. Interpretations of what was said, and the possible meaning thereof, varies alot; therefore I'd rather see it in the original. :)-->
quote:What happened when you posted your questions face to face, OM?
When I spoke with Don W. over the phone, he told me that many mistakes were made and communication from the BOT hadn't been up to par and they will improve. But my thinking wasn't corrupt and I didn't view them as devil worshippers. At the time, I viewed Craig's loyalty letter as a call to recommit ourselves for one common purpose of standing together to move the Word. Everybody knew the BOT had made mistakes, the question was, where to go from here. But you had Vince F. accusing the BOT of "worshipping other gods", without getting specific. I asked for specifics and never got any when I personally spoke with Vince that year; all I got was "you are CARNAL" because you follow men. Ok whatever. Vince F. was following Geer, and as we learn later, Geer didn't have any answers himself. So you had the blind leading the blind.
Reason why I stayed with twi at that time because simply put, I didn't see any reasons to leave, nobody I was speaking with at that time gave me any appreciable reasons to leave, and I wasn't going to form my life on blind suspicions. I finally left for good in 1990/91, when nobody was around anymore, and I didn't feel like travelling 1 1/2 hours to the nearest meeting.
What I posted above was a less-diplomatic paraphrase of it. (You can try a search on the previous discussion, maybe.)
That's why I asked for the exact letter. Interpretations of what was said, and the possible meaning thereof, varies alot; therefore I'd rather see it in the original.
What good will the original do for you Oldies? --> You asked for (and I sent you), the "original" of the 37 page letter by R. Belt, R. Dubofsky, J&P Lynn, and T. Reahard -- along with some clergy meeting notes that absolutely "hit below the waterline" -- striking, and helping sink the "good ship twi".
Since you are still so adamant in your declarations that twi is (after all these years) "a victim", I am beginning to wonder if you even perused the pages I sent. Did you instead line your kitchen cabinets with them? Use them as scratch paper? Run out of Kleenex, and use them as tissue? (surprised you couldn't smell truth there), or did you take the entire batch out to an outhouse to be utilized there?
Given your continued rhetoric about twi, and how they are so "misunderstood", I can only suppose that once in possesion of "the original", you either glance at it perfunctorily - and dismiss it as "so much garbage", or put it on your bottom shelf, never to be seen again.
T'is obvious you don't take them seriously -- even if you do see the "original interpretations, and the possible meanings thereof". :(-->
Thats it dmiller...the *show me in the original* is whipped out and brandished like a sword...in repeated attempts to discredit anyone who`s experiences contradict what he would have everyone believe twi was....I don`t believe for one miniute that Oldies cares what the truth is....it would appear that he is just looking to add more ammo to his arsenal to attack any who dare speak up.
When I left staff in '89, the entire BOT was out in the street as I was walking away, weeping and wailing, lying prostrate on the pavement grabbing at my ankles screaming "Puhleeeeze don't go! We NEEEEED you! Puhuleeeeze, don't goo ah, ah, ah, awwww! (inconsolable weeping)"
Actually, I walked in Howard's office (the morning after LoyBoy's ultimatum) and told him I was going. He smiled, wrote me out a check (severance and vacation pay) and reserved a Ryder truck for me. Buh-bye!
quote:What good will the original do for you Oldies? You asked for (and I sent you), the "original" of the 37 page letter by R. Belt, R. Dubofsky, J&P Lynn, and T. Reahard -- along with some clergy meeting notes that absolutely "hit below the waterline" -- striking, and helping sink the "good ship twi".
... I am beginning to wonder if you even perused the pages I sent. Did you instead line your kitchen cabinets with them? Use them as scratch paper? Run out of Kleenex, and use them as tissue? (surprised you couldn't smell truth there), or did you take the entire batch out to an outhouse to be utilized there? ...
dmiller, I did read the papers you sent me and thought they were very interesting, and also self-serving. I take it you believe what was said to be the truth? Ok, here's a quote from the paper and please let me know where you stand on this statement:
quote:We must remember who fathered us in God's Word and remember his ways which were in the Lord. ...
Splash, what splash. Don't you remember whats his face. Well it was a little smaller than that. I had all ready seen the light and was looking to get out when I got an unexpected job offer. It moved me 200 miles. I still got calls about missing fellowship. My last contact with anyone in TWI was 10-6-79. That was my wedding and my best man had just come back from DC where he was a WOW. Never regret leaving. Only miss my old friends.
I came in after VP was dead but soon enough after to see the lingering effects. And, yes, I did ask my BC, LC and even went to HQ with my BC to ask questions. The answer? Geer and his crowd were possessed and the only question that deserved an answer was who I stood with?
No answers of any kind were offered. Hard stop, no need to know on my part. Nope. Just make up your mind. Are you with us or against us. That was it.
So, OM, some of did take the time to ask in a very nice, genuine way. Being new, I truly had no prior experience with or ties to any current or former TWI leaders. Heck, I was a nobody on their org chart. And we got shot down by at least one person at the BOT level. Happy?
I had wondered were where all the folks were I knew in the 75-83. I knew things got stirred up in the Way during those years, noone talked about it on the inside walls of the HOLY LAND.But ...did not know anything about loyalty and all the other stuff or even the Passing of the Patriach. I didnt even know or remember who Chris Geer was.....Cluelessss. nO one realy Talked about it........
I left in 2000', what a shocker to my heart.....I felt so lied too!!!!!!
quote:So, OM, some of did take the time to ask in a very nice, genuine way. Being new, I truly had no prior experience with or ties to any current or former TWI leaders. Heck, I was a nobody on their org chart. And we got shot down by at least one person at the BOT level. Happy?
JustThinking, no question there were folks who did check things out for themselves. More power to ya. But I was referring to those folks in NY who were calling us Carnal Thinkers, while simultaneously thinking carnally themselves.
People had different experiences with the BOT. Mine were ok. Of course, I was willing to overlook past problems, while some others were not; maybe that has something to do with it.
I had a relative leave solely because VF said so. We talked on the phone from time to time, but because I was unwilling to leave also it seems that they (relatives) M&A'd us.
One of them became gravely ill and I wanted to visit, as one would for someone in that family situation who was so ill, but was asked not to come.
Shortly afterward, at the time of death, they did call us and give us the final details and we went to the wake, and the funeral the next day.
When we walked into the room at the wake, I noticed that there were at least 4 men watching ur every move. One even tailed me to the ladies room.
I'll be forever thanful for what our tc did the following day, the day of the funeral. He took the day off to accompany us there. He drove, understanding how broken up we could be. When these guys recognized our tc, their backs stiffened. I felt such a strong sense of animosity - - as if these guys (not the remaining family) would have rather kept us away because we were M&A"d in their eyes, but they ha the good judgement to not interfere.
I could understand the other part of the family leaving if they could have or would have given me a reson other than somebody said so. I had no knowledge of what was going on so I was realy confused.
When I think back on those few months, it still hurts even though I now have a better handle on the big picture.
To leave becaue you have a real genuine difference between you and them is one thing...and even though I wouldn't leave twi at the time, I would have understood their actions even if I didn't agree.
Being kept away, at such an "emotional" distance because VF said so, makes no sense, and now, I'm still angry.
Possibly......*some* experiences were better with the bot because *some* people had family members that worked for said bot.
*Some* peoples family members were familiar with the inner workings of the bot and were thus garnered much better treatment for themselves and their families than the average believer.
I wonder if *some* people are not as supportive of twi any longer because their *friends* no longer are in power....and cannot buy them immunity and so......twi just isn`t quite as much *fun* any more....
When *some* are treated better by the bot because of the favors granted family members ..I do not think that is a fair assesment of how MOST others with no family connections buying them a smoother ride.
I know a man who says the exact same thing...even says it from the pulpit sometimes...after about 2 decades of being away from twi.
It used to bother me to no end for him to be so arrogant. Then it was revealed to me that this statement is not arrogant...it's needy.
I can't imagine how it must feel inside of his head to look at the now-grown child he and R*ss T*acy baptized (yep, in a private little ceremony at the college wow home) as a newborn...to see this same child now struggling with life because of what was done to her in twi...to see this child's child struggling because her mother is struggling...
What must it feel like in his head to see the generational problems caused by twi...and still cling to twi...
How must it feel to him to harbor in his heart such blatant lack of godly caring and love and compassion as to preach the very same doctrines and commandments of men who have been proven to be nothing more than lying abusers...
I feel so sad for him...
I've known him since I was 16yo...
He wasn't like this when I knew him...
Had he been, I would have never stayed in twi...
He used to know how to genuinely love people...
Now he lives in what he calls a "bubble"...
Nobody can reach him...
He can reach nobody...
But that's where he feels safest after all of his years with twi...
In a bubble of denial ignoring the damage he and others in twi have, will and still inflict in people's lives.
So what kind of a splash did I make when I left twi?
I gave the DA my deposition of the child abuse...physical, mental, spiritual and sexual...going on in the branch leader's and a twig leader's homes.
It wasn't soon enough, it wasn't just enough, but it was enough to start the ball rolling to break up a pedophile ring operating under the guise of "children's fellowship".
quote:I had a relative leave solely because VF said so.
Krysilis, thx for confirming this. Lots and lots of folks did the same thing, thinking they were doing the spiritual thing by leaving. I thought a particularly pathetic situation were my twig coordinators at the time, who knew me and fellowshipped with me for years, but couldn't give a fig what I thought about this. I asked them to write down their concerns about twi, and address them directly with Don Wierwille, who I previously phoned myself and was told it was ok for *anyone* who had concerns to phone him. They simply refused.
Had they followed through on my request, what better opportunity to prove that I am wrong by giving me reasons where I'm off?
But no, no appreciable reason why they left was given other than my *Carnality* for deciding to stand with Craig Martindale and the bot. The famous "Loyalty Letter". We were following men, yada yada yada. And the same folks accusing us of following men, were following Vince F. and Chris G. That's why I refer to these specific folks were acting like the pot calling the kettle black.
And of course, today, these folks may still think they did the exact right thing, but only now they have good reasons why cause of the revealed sins of Wierwille and Martindale. Like patting them selves on the back for doing the right thing... God love 'em.
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alfakat
phone calls, schmone calls --- the bot had been opening the "lines of communication" for 3+ years at that point. The Evan was on staff at the beginning of the fiasco; ask him how well questions were received and handled.
If it was SO freakin great, OM ---- how come it did not work out jimm dandy?? cuz it was bs, OM, allofit!!!! Geer, loy, blow hard howw-erdd and Don-boy. I will grant you, DEW was the most approachable and the least of the problem children but all in all, it was smoke, OM------ NOTHING CHANGED...
case closed.
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WordWolf
(snip)
My opinion about the pot calling the kettle black is for the people who were accusing us of being Carnal Thinkers -- chiefly, Vince F. There were others too. But I do believe that most folks (average believers) who left were following their local leadership without examining the other side of the coin and confronting the BOT with the apprehensions. For instance, how many folks actually called headquarters to make an attempt to speak to one of the trustees? Very few. I happen to know for a fact that Don Wierwille was taking phone calls from anyone who would listen, back in those days. I personally asked my twig coordinators to do that, call Don and voice their concerns to him, but they refused. I eventually left their twig, because they couldn't give a fig about what I thought.A) The letters were discussed here before.
Those were the ones where all the staff were named that were
being fired. I posed it then but I'm not retyping it now.
It was the first time lcm used the "mark and avoid" gambit.
According to the previous discussion, the thing was a form letter.
Every state got the same letter, with the exception of the names,
which were different for each state.
What I posted above was a less-diplomatic paraphrase of it.
(You can try a search on the previous discussion, maybe.)
B) I disagree with what you said about "the average believer."
I was in touch with Christians all over the country at the time.
(Before the internet, even!
:)--> )
MANY sent letters and got back snippy replies.
Responses were variations of "don't worry about that-just follow
our instructions." That's when I scrapped my own letter which I
was working on. Mail replies were definitely curt.
I also took the liberty of posing my questions
FACE TO FACE
on grounds.
The responses all confirmed what the letter told me.
Leadership at hq were acting and planning in a non-Christian way,
and were more concerned with loyalty and obedience than in
godly edifying.
What happened when you posted your questions face to face, OM?
I know for a fact I was not the ONLY one who went face to face.
Me, I was threatened with physical violence....
This scared me not one bit and only provided the nail in the
coffin. Some people can't be coerced by brand loyalty nor
intimidation. From what I saw, those who stayed had zeal, but
the brains had largely left.
(Judging from a nonrepresentative sampling I took across an ROA.)
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oldiesman
Reason why I stayed with twi at that time because simply put, I didn't see any reasons to leave, nobody I was speaking with at that time gave me any appreciable reasons to leave, and I wasn't going to form my life on blind suspicions. I finally left for good in 1990/91, when nobody was around anymore, and I didn't feel like travelling 1 1/2 hours to the nearest meeting.
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rascal
Better to have the blind leading from hq than the blind from outside hq`sh?.. lol...They were all spiritually blind as bats....
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dmiller
What good will the original do for you Oldies?
--> You asked for (and I sent you), the "original" of the 37 page letter by R. Belt, R. Dubofsky, J&P Lynn, and T. Reahard -- along with some clergy meeting notes that absolutely "hit below the waterline" -- striking, and helping sink the "good ship twi".
Since you are still so adamant in your declarations that twi is (after all these years) "a victim", I am beginning to wonder if you even perused the pages I sent. Did you instead line your kitchen cabinets with them? Use them as scratch paper? Run out of Kleenex, and use them as tissue? (surprised you couldn't smell truth there), or did you take the entire batch out to an outhouse to be utilized there?
Given your continued rhetoric about twi, and how they are so "misunderstood", I can only suppose that once in possesion of "the original", you either glance at it perfunctorily - and dismiss it as "so much garbage", or put it on your bottom shelf, never to be seen again.
T'is obvious you don't take them seriously -- even if you do see the "original interpretations, and the possible meanings thereof".
:(-->
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rascal
Thats it dmiller...the *show me in the original* is whipped out and brandished like a sword...in repeated attempts to discredit anyone who`s experiences contradict what he would have everyone believe twi was....I don`t believe for one miniute that Oldies cares what the truth is....it would appear that he is just looking to add more ammo to his arsenal to attack any who dare speak up.
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George Aar
When I left staff in '89, the entire BOT was out in the street as I was walking away, weeping and wailing, lying prostrate on the pavement grabbing at my ankles screaming "Puhleeeeze don't go! We NEEEEED you! Puhuleeeeze, don't goo ah, ah, ah, awwww! (inconsolable weeping)"
Actually, I walked in Howard's office (the morning after LoyBoy's ultimatum) and told him I was going. He smiled, wrote me out a check (severance and vacation pay) and reserved a Ryder truck for me. Buh-bye!
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waterbuffalo
Geo,
YOu're killing me. Stoooooooop.
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oldiesman
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johniam
Raf: I'm going to do what the Moody Blues song says, "keep on thinking free"!
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ex70sHouston
Splash, what splash. Don't you remember whats his face. Well it was a little smaller than that. I had all ready seen the light and was looking to get out when I got an unexpected job offer. It moved me 200 miles. I still got calls about missing fellowship. My last contact with anyone in TWI was 10-6-79. That was my wedding and my best man had just come back from DC where he was a WOW. Never regret leaving. Only miss my old friends.
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JustThinking
OM and others,
I came in after VP was dead but soon enough after to see the lingering effects. And, yes, I did ask my BC, LC and even went to HQ with my BC to ask questions. The answer? Geer and his crowd were possessed and the only question that deserved an answer was who I stood with?
No answers of any kind were offered. Hard stop, no need to know on my part. Nope. Just make up your mind. Are you with us or against us. That was it.
So, OM, some of did take the time to ask in a very nice, genuine way. Being new, I truly had no prior experience with or ties to any current or former TWI leaders. Heck, I was a nobody on their org chart. And we got shot down by at least one person at the BOT level. Happy?
JT
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likeaneagle
Hi you all...
there you are!!
I left twi 1 in 83'
went back in in 90'
I had wondered were where all the folks were I knew in the 75-83. I knew things got stirred up in the Way during those years, noone talked about it on the inside walls of the HOLY LAND.But ...did not know anything about loyalty and all the other stuff or even the Passing of the Patriach. I didnt even know or remember who Chris Geer was.....Cluelessss. nO one realy Talked about it........
I left in 2000', what a shocker to my heart.....I felt so lied too!!!!!!
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krys
I didn't turn around to look to see if there even was a splash when I left.....I doubt it though...I was just your typcal non-corpse small fry.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Just enough of a splash out of the water that my cape remained intact. Jor-El taught me the difference between kryptonite and a shinola shoe shine.
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oldiesman
People had different experiences with the BOT. Mine were ok. Of course, I was willing to overlook past problems, while some others were not; maybe that has something to do with it.
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krys
I remember NY in that time period very well.
I had a relative leave solely because VF said so. We talked on the phone from time to time, but because I was unwilling to leave also it seems that they (relatives) M&A'd us.
One of them became gravely ill and I wanted to visit, as one would for someone in that family situation who was so ill, but was asked not to come.
Shortly afterward, at the time of death, they did call us and give us the final details and we went to the wake, and the funeral the next day.
When we walked into the room at the wake, I noticed that there were at least 4 men watching ur every move. One even tailed me to the ladies room.
I'll be forever thanful for what our tc did the following day, the day of the funeral. He took the day off to accompany us there. He drove, understanding how broken up we could be. When these guys recognized our tc, their backs stiffened. I felt such a strong sense of animosity - - as if these guys (not the remaining family) would have rather kept us away because we were M&A"d in their eyes, but they ha the good judgement to not interfere.
I could understand the other part of the family leaving if they could have or would have given me a reson other than somebody said so. I had no knowledge of what was going on so I was realy confused.
When I think back on those few months, it still hurts even though I now have a better handle on the big picture.
To leave becaue you have a real genuine difference between you and them is one thing...and even though I wouldn't leave twi at the time, I would have understood their actions even if I didn't agree.
Being kept away, at such an "emotional" distance because VF said so, makes no sense, and now, I'm still angry.
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rascal
Possibly......*some* experiences were better with the bot because *some* people had family members that worked for said bot.
*Some* peoples family members were familiar with the inner workings of the bot and were thus garnered much better treatment for themselves and their families than the average believer.
I wonder if *some* people are not as supportive of twi any longer because their *friends* no longer are in power....and cannot buy them immunity and so......twi just isn`t quite as much *fun* any more....
When *some* are treated better by the bot because of the favors granted family members ..I do not think that is a fair assesment of how MOST others with no family connections buying them a smoother ride.
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CoolWaters
How very sad.
I know a man who says the exact same thing...even says it from the pulpit sometimes...after about 2 decades of being away from twi.
It used to bother me to no end for him to be so arrogant. Then it was revealed to me that this statement is not arrogant...it's needy.
I can't imagine how it must feel inside of his head to look at the now-grown child he and R*ss T*acy baptized (yep, in a private little ceremony at the college wow home) as a newborn...to see this same child now struggling with life because of what was done to her in twi...to see this child's child struggling because her mother is struggling...
What must it feel like in his head to see the generational problems caused by twi...and still cling to twi...
How must it feel to him to harbor in his heart such blatant lack of godly caring and love and compassion as to preach the very same doctrines and commandments of men who have been proven to be nothing more than lying abusers...
I feel so sad for him...
I've known him since I was 16yo...
He wasn't like this when I knew him...
Had he been, I would have never stayed in twi...
He used to know how to genuinely love people...
Now he lives in what he calls a "bubble"...
Nobody can reach him...
He can reach nobody...
But that's where he feels safest after all of his years with twi...
In a bubble of denial ignoring the damage he and others in twi have, will and still inflict in people's lives.
So what kind of a splash did I make when I left twi?
I gave the DA my deposition of the child abuse...physical, mental, spiritual and sexual...going on in the branch leader's and a twig leader's homes.
It wasn't soon enough, it wasn't just enough, but it was enough to start the ball rolling to break up a pedophile ring operating under the guise of "children's fellowship".
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oldiesman
Had they followed through on my request, what better opportunity to prove that I am wrong by giving me reasons where I'm off?
But no, no appreciable reason why they left was given other than my *Carnality* for deciding to stand with Craig Martindale and the bot. The famous "Loyalty Letter". We were following men, yada yada yada. And the same folks accusing us of following men, were following Vince F. and Chris G. That's why I refer to these specific folks were acting like the pot calling the kettle black.
And of course, today, these folks may still think they did the exact right thing, but only now they have good reasons why cause of the revealed sins of Wierwille and Martindale. Like patting them selves on the back for doing the right thing... God love 'em.
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JustThinking
TWI certainly did a great job of training them to follow blindly.
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oldiesman
Good one, JustThinking. One of the downsides of Blind Obedience ...
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rascal
Whatcha think oldies? Do you think that maybe your view of twi is a little bit slanted because you were rubbing elbows with the bot?
Is that the reason that their crimes don`t seem so heinous to you?
Would in condemning the founder and bot for their crimes you have to condemn those close to you?
Is that why you are so insensitive to the suffering of those victimized by the leadership of twi?
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