I saw the above deposition in another thread. It made me laugh :D--> Maybe this is how ROSALIE got her nickname.
But it is not funny for those who sold their assets including real estate, which has since soared in value, and their businesses. One person told me that he lost over a million dollars because of the "get out of debt" pressure that he caved in to. I have no proof this is true. But I know the man and where he lives and that he used to have a huge business and nice home at that time.
Regardless of what Rosie says under oath, my experience was that everyday followers WERE in fact required to get out of debt or else. It was strongly implied if not enforced. Everyone was interviewed and had to tell all their debts. If you didn't make real, trackable efforts to get out of debt, then you were ousted one way or the other, eventually.
One respected couple we remember bought a house secretly and told our leader that they were renting. Later it was found out they in fact had a mortgage and were kicked out.
Another lady in our fellowship bought a car on credit and was reprimanded for it and I believe would have been forced out of the fellowship. But she put the car in her husband’s name, a person who was not a follower at the time as an acceptable workaround.
Another person in our branch regrets selling his home because it has gone up in value so much. When I asked him (a couple of weeks ago)why he sold it he said he was told he needed to get out of debt. This man is an accountant and very educated. He knew the numbers but did it anyway. It is because of the strenuous pressure that was put on the followers to either get out of debt or else.
Personally, I believe it was at a crisis time in The Way when they wanted to raise a lot of cash due to the Way Corps being made to go on full time salary. Less debt meant more money to give to The Way.
Also sales of real estate meant a large windfall of abundant sharing in the coffers of The Way from the equity. Most I knew who sold their houses gave at least 10% of their equity and then went and rented a place.
Others may have their own experiences but ours are quite different than what Rosalie says under oath.
It's not only Rosa-lie, John. I was talking to my TC and BC one time about the mandate that people sell their homes and my TC had the gall to ask me when that ever happened. He insisted that TWI never, but never, forced people to sell their homes.
I gave him 3 specific examples right away, 2 of which included him and his wife being the ones putting people on probation for not selling their homes.
Of course, then the conversation changed to why I was sticking my nose in other people's business. Take the focuse off the problem and then it goes away and you don't have to admit to it. That's the TWI motto.
I was NEVER asked IF I wanted to get out of debt. I was only ever asked what my plan was to get out of debt. It was presented as a requirement to remain as a TC. Period.
martindale and his ilk crapped on people like you to no end. i apologize for ever being in that band of mother's ( F'ers)
i'll tell you one thing. i've learned; as you all well know twi is alive and living to one extent or another in the off shoot groups. wierwille is still worshipped. praised. exemplified.
mummified?
if i ever take a mans teachings seriously again 'tis going to be emerson or bullinger or twain, and perhaps poe.
quote: Personally, I believe it was at a crisis time in The Way when they wanted to raise a lot of cash due to the Way Corps being made to go on full time salary. Less debt meant more money to give to The Way.
I specifically remember the debt inquisition started in 1994, years before corps were asked to go full-time.
A la, it was not years before. The Corps were made to go full time in 1995. And you know LCM had to plan ahead for his "if you teach it they will come" scheme concerning his answer to PFAL, the Way of Abundance and Power series.
It was a bad, bad move on his part and he probably felt it in his bones. Heck he spent $2 million just on the cameras to film WAP on. But he had no corporate business experience to speak of.
It was a gamble to spend all that money and then to make the Corps be on full time salary to boot. In my opinion, the stop the flow of the potential red ink from happening, he had to come up with a way to increase revenue.
It ALL backfired and failed miserably. The gamble did not pay off. But heck, it was not his money that he gambled with, it was yours. HE still had luxuries.
And correct me if I am, wrong, but the current President of TWI, Rosie, was a part of it all, as well as Donna, Howard, Don, Mr. Reynolds and all the other Region and Limb guys. How dumb are they? Just as inexperienced in my opinion.
It was never said in so many words that you had to get out of debt, however in my case it was suggested or recommended the, "you sell your house and move outside 250mile radius of HQ." I asked BC . What if I do not want to?.. His reply, " We'll cross that bridge when we get to it" So read between the lines..That puke was telling us to sell and move..Did he say those precise words, No...I was such a wuss, But I still got's my family naw naw!!
It wasn't said that you HAD to get out of debt to have certain privileges. Of course not.
However, if you wanted to, say, attened the Advanced Class Special, you had to have debt that was just in certain categories - like a mortgage (but you had to be working on selling your house), child support (a requirement to pay), or taxes (another requirement to pay) and that was about it.
Oh, yeah, I almost forgot....
...plus, leadership had to assess your situation and okay your attending the event.
But other than that, no, you didn't have to be out of debt.
You just had to be willing to let them stick their noses so far up your foot that they could tell what you had eaten for breakfast!
No matter what they say now, debt certainly was something that would affect one's standing.
I know someone who was a household fellowship coordinator who was demoted because he went into debt to purchase a larger house so he could take in and care for his elderly mother.
Timothy says that if you don't take care of your elderly parents, you are worse than an infidel. Yet when he obeyed what Timothy said and took in his mother and needed a new place with an extra bedroom (they had 4 children at home at the time and absolutely needed more space) he got punished by twi. He was demoted and could no longer be an HFC because he sold his current house and bought a bigger one which cost more and had to get a mortgage to cover the difference.
No, they never MADE anyone get out of debt or sell their house... they just gave us choices:
Do it, or you cannot attend the Advanced Class, be a Fellowship Coordinator, or attend the WIB/Special conferences. Meaning, you will be looked down upon by your fellow twig-ites for not "believing God" or rising up to the standards of the Word, and you will be harrassed by your local (and if you are lucky, your state/region) coordinators until you can't stand it any more.
Do it, or leave the ministry (meaning, turn your back on God, step right into the path of the oncoming devil's-gonna-get-you-train, be shunned by every friend you've been allowed to have for the past xx years).
At first - Advanced Class grads of the PFAL A/C who wanted to take the WAP Advanced Class were allowed to have certain kinds of debt and still attend. They were -
Mortgage
Child Support (yes - it was considered a debt!)
Hospital Bills
Student Loans
IRS debt
Later, when all the grad-only classes were over, you had to have NO debt whatsoever in order to qualify, whether you were an old PFAL A/C grad or not.
Poor me, I couldn't take it when it was a grad-only class... so I had to wait for the "new student" classes and ... oops! I couldn't take it because we have a mortgage. Too bad, what a shame, I'm so sad :D--> :P--> ;)-->
When I was diagnosed with diabetes I was in the hospital for a week. We had no health insurance, and were paying off our hospital bill in monthly increments. The HFC and BC got wind of this and raised hholy screaming he11 about it. We were forced to sell some valuable stock and pay ours off; however, when the HFC's wife had surgery, they charged it off to Medicaid. When the "revelation" to sell off our houses came down a close personal friend of the BC was allowed to keep his house.
Later, after being commanded to attend the last ROA and flying to Ohio and back and having to put the airline tickets on a credit card, we were reamed because of that! We were told we were not permitted to attend Word in Business, for which we were already registered. I promptly fired back with "I want a refund!" Not a popular move, but it was interesting seeing the colors of righteous rage that little puke BC could turn.
speaking of refunds, I only took the class once, but I think I am entitled to a refund with interest. What was it 80 bucks at 10 percent interest over 24 years that should be worth at least 300 bucks shouldnt it?
I am not sure of the year, but when the credit union started up and VP had them offer some low interest loans for houses in NK. Quite a few staff that where corp purchased houses, then sometime after the second large group of staff were told to leave in 88 the houses started to go up for sale. If I remember there were probably 7 houses owned by corp staff members that were sold within say 6 month period. The house were all purchased at a reasonable price.
A friend told me the small little houses in NK are going around 90,000-100,000. Many of those sold by the corp staff went pretty cheap.
I also knew of one couple who were "mark and avoid" for purchasing a home. Another woman, who stuck to her guns, was constantly being "encouraged" to sell her home. She was right to assume it would be ridiculous to sell and go pay double the price of her mortgage in rent. There was constant pressure from her leadership to sell it and get out of debt.
Watered Garden, why was the HFC's wife able to charge her medical debt "off to Medicaid", while you were not? Is it because their income was so low as to qualify for Medicaid (A GOVERNMENT HANDOUT!), while yours was not? Which Limb Coordinator was it that had the "screaming fit"? I wonder if ALL Limb Coordinators were given special "fit training ". I know our's was particulary adept at it -->
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igotout
I saw the above deposition in another thread. It made me laugh
:D--> Maybe this is how ROSALIE got her nickname.
But it is not funny for those who sold their assets including real estate, which has since soared in value, and their businesses. One person told me that he lost over a million dollars because of the "get out of debt" pressure that he caved in to. I have no proof this is true. But I know the man and where he lives and that he used to have a huge business and nice home at that time.
Regardless of what Rosie says under oath, my experience was that everyday followers WERE in fact required to get out of debt or else. It was strongly implied if not enforced. Everyone was interviewed and had to tell all their debts. If you didn't make real, trackable efforts to get out of debt, then you were ousted one way or the other, eventually.
One respected couple we remember bought a house secretly and told our leader that they were renting. Later it was found out they in fact had a mortgage and were kicked out.
Another lady in our fellowship bought a car on credit and was reprimanded for it and I believe would have been forced out of the fellowship. But she put the car in her husband’s name, a person who was not a follower at the time as an acceptable workaround.
Another person in our branch regrets selling his home because it has gone up in value so much. When I asked him (a couple of weeks ago)why he sold it he said he was told he needed to get out of debt. This man is an accountant and very educated. He knew the numbers but did it anyway. It is because of the strenuous pressure that was put on the followers to either get out of debt or else.
Personally, I believe it was at a crisis time in The Way when they wanted to raise a lot of cash due to the Way Corps being made to go on full time salary. Less debt meant more money to give to The Way.
Also sales of real estate meant a large windfall of abundant sharing in the coffers of The Way from the equity. Most I knew who sold their houses gave at least 10% of their equity and then went and rented a place.
Others may have their own experiences but ours are quite different than what Rosalie says under oath.
John R.
Tampa, FL
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Belle
It's not only Rosa-lie, John. I was talking to my TC and BC one time about the mandate that people sell their homes and my TC had the gall to ask me when that ever happened. He insisted that TWI never, but never, forced people to sell their homes.
I gave him 3 specific examples right away, 2 of which included him and his wife being the ones putting people on probation for not selling their homes.
Of course, then the conversation changed to why I was sticking my nose in other people's business. Take the focuse off the problem and then it goes away and you don't have to admit to it. That's the TWI motto.
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JustThinking
I was NEVER asked IF I wanted to get out of debt. I was only ever asked what my plan was to get out of debt. It was presented as a requirement to remain as a TC. Period.
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grasshopper
igotout:
martindale and his ilk crapped on people like you to no end. i apologize for ever being in that band of mother's ( F'ers)
i'll tell you one thing. i've learned; as you all well know twi is alive and living to one extent or another in the off shoot groups. wierwille is still worshipped. praised. exemplified.
mummified?
if i ever take a mans teachings seriously again 'tis going to be emerson or bullinger or twain, and perhaps poe.
definitely poe.
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grasshopper
probably the most gritty galling thing was getting reproved for carrying out the orders of the reprover.
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dmiller
For once -- I am thankful that I was in twi-1. None of this was leveled at us then.
ABS was the big thing then, debt was an unheard of entity.
-->
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A la prochaine
John,
I specifically remember the debt inquisition started in 1994, years before corps were asked to go full-time.
I think they just wanted more money period!
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igotout
A la, it was not years before. The Corps were made to go full time in 1995. And you know LCM had to plan ahead for his "if you teach it they will come" scheme concerning his answer to PFAL, the Way of Abundance and Power series.
It was a bad, bad move on his part and he probably felt it in his bones. Heck he spent $2 million just on the cameras to film WAP on. But he had no corporate business experience to speak of.
It was a gamble to spend all that money and then to make the Corps be on full time salary to boot. In my opinion, the stop the flow of the potential red ink from happening, he had to come up with a way to increase revenue.
It ALL backfired and failed miserably. The gamble did not pay off. But heck, it was not his money that he gambled with, it was yours. HE still had luxuries.
And correct me if I am, wrong, but the current President of TWI, Rosie, was a part of it all, as well as Donna, Howard, Don, Mr. Reynolds and all the other Region and Limb guys. How dumb are they? Just as inexperienced in my opinion.
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A la prochaine
Sorry John,
I stand corrected. I did not realize that the full-time corps thingy happened so quickly after the no debt thingy.
Those morons wouldn't know common sense if it bit them in the a$$!!
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Mr Moonlight
It was never said in so many words that you had to get out of debt, however in my case it was suggested or recommended the, "you sell your house and move outside 250mile radius of HQ." I asked BC . What if I do not want to?.. His reply, " We'll cross that bridge when we get to it" So read between the lines..That puke was telling us to sell and move..Did he say those precise words, No...I was such a wuss, But I still got's my family naw naw!!
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oldiesman
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outandabout
I know that my brother sold his house in the midst of the no debt thing.
His children suffered from being uprooted from their home.
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ChasUFarley
It wasn't said that you HAD to get out of debt to have certain privileges. Of course not.
However, if you wanted to, say, attened the Advanced Class Special, you had to have debt that was just in certain categories - like a mortgage (but you had to be working on selling your house), child support (a requirement to pay), or taxes (another requirement to pay) and that was about it.
Oh, yeah, I almost forgot....
...plus, leadership had to assess your situation and okay your attending the event.
But other than that, no, you didn't have to be out of debt.
You just had to be willing to let them stick their noses so far up your foot that they could tell what you had eaten for breakfast!
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herbiejuan
And they liked it
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jim martin/ jimextwi
To keep this straight this is from the federal court hearing that was posted on the magazine. not any of the depositions
jim
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Research Geek
No matter what they say now, debt certainly was something that would affect one's standing.
I know someone who was a household fellowship coordinator who was demoted because he went into debt to purchase a larger house so he could take in and care for his elderly mother.
Timothy says that if you don't take care of your elderly parents, you are worse than an infidel. Yet when he obeyed what Timothy said and took in his mother and needed a new place with an extra bedroom (they had 4 children at home at the time and absolutely needed more space) he got punished by twi. He was demoted and could no longer be an HFC because he sold his current house and bought a bigger one which cost more and had to get a mortgage to cover the difference.
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TheHighWay
No, they never MADE anyone get out of debt or sell their house... they just gave us choices:
Do it, or you cannot attend the Advanced Class, be a Fellowship Coordinator, or attend the WIB/Special conferences. Meaning, you will be looked down upon by your fellow twig-ites for not "believing God" or rising up to the standards of the Word, and you will be harrassed by your local (and if you are lucky, your state/region) coordinators until you can't stand it any more.
Do it, or leave the ministry (meaning, turn your back on God, step right into the path of the oncoming devil's-gonna-get-you-train, be shunned by every friend you've been allowed to have for the past xx years).
Nope, no pressure there.
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Hope R.
At first - Advanced Class grads of the PFAL A/C who wanted to take the WAP Advanced Class were allowed to have certain kinds of debt and still attend. They were -
Mortgage
Child Support (yes - it was considered a debt!)
Hospital Bills
Student Loans
IRS debt
Later, when all the grad-only classes were over, you had to have NO debt whatsoever in order to qualify, whether you were an old PFAL A/C grad or not.
Poor me, I couldn't take it when it was a grad-only class... so I had to wait for the "new student" classes and ... oops! I couldn't take it because we have a mortgage. Too bad, what a shame, I'm so sad
:D--> 
:P--> 
;)--> 
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Watered Garden
When I was diagnosed with diabetes I was in the hospital for a week. We had no health insurance, and were paying off our hospital bill in monthly increments. The HFC and BC got wind of this and raised hholy screaming he11 about it. We were forced to sell some valuable stock and pay ours off; however, when the HFC's wife had surgery, they charged it off to Medicaid. When the "revelation" to sell off our houses came down a close personal friend of the BC was allowed to keep his house.
Later, after being commanded to attend the last ROA and flying to Ohio and back and having to put the airline tickets on a credit card, we were reamed because of that! We were told we were not permitted to attend Word in Business, for which we were already registered. I promptly fired back with "I want a refund!" Not a popular move, but it was interesting seeing the colors of righteous rage that little puke BC could turn.
WG
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rascal
Did you get your refund?
What jerks.
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sky4it
rascal:
speaking of refunds, I only took the class once, but I think I am entitled to a refund with interest. What was it 80 bucks at 10 percent interest over 24 years that should be worth at least 300 bucks shouldnt it?
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detour
I am not sure of the year, but when the credit union started up and VP had them offer some low interest loans for houses in NK. Quite a few staff that where corp purchased houses, then sometime after the second large group of staff were told to leave in 88 the houses started to go up for sale. If I remember there were probably 7 houses owned by corp staff members that were sold within say 6 month period. The house were all purchased at a reasonable price.
A friend told me the small little houses in NK are going around 90,000-100,000. Many of those sold by the corp staff went pretty cheap.
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justwannabeme
I also knew of one couple who were "mark and avoid" for purchasing a home. Another woman, who stuck to her guns, was constantly being "encouraged" to sell her home. She was right to assume it would be ridiculous to sell and go pay double the price of her mortgage in rent. There was constant pressure from her leadership to sell it and get out of debt.
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Cherished Child
Watered Garden, why was the HFC's wife able to charge her medical debt "off to Medicaid", while you were not? Is it because their income was so low as to qualify for Medicaid (A GOVERNMENT HANDOUT!), while yours was not? Which Limb Coordinator was it that had the "screaming fit"? I wonder if ALL Limb Coordinators were given special "fit training ". I know our's was particulary adept at it
-->
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