quote:"I am the teacher, you are the student. That will never change. I refuse to allow you to teach me."
that is screwed
i am a parent and my child is my child. that will never change, but he teaches me things all the time and i have no problem recognizing it and telling him so
my greatest teachers in life definitely were NOT way honchos
Another big difference between TWI teachers and secular teachers--the latter type doesn't get personally offended and enraged if their students don't 'get' it. Instead they try giving it more time, or another method of instruction etc.
A true teacher is humble...sensitive to the needs of the student and striving for interaction...objective learning, where questions are welcomed and the student is never made to feel inferior or controlled.
Twi's methods were not "teaching" in the true sense...it was more like "conditioning".
The most important task of a teacher is believing. That is: to get a mental picture of all the students "getting it", being able to understand the material and apply it. One does not need an annointing to teach or to believe. There are many inspiring secular teachers who use more of the gamut of teaching techniques than most people who have ever taught at twi.
I dare to say that most of the people who taught at twi never received any formal secular college level training on the wide range of methods of how to do it. Most just had reoccuring opportunities to teach at the local and "higher" levels and once they reached a certain reputation, thought they were good teachers. Then with twi2, the ego entered in and they demanded that the rank and file revere them as something special. Once that set in, they basically became worthless.
If you are a true teacher and one single pupil does not understand what you are teaching, you have failed.
For the most part, twi only centered on the lecture method and hardly ever used the socratic method. The latter is much more effective, but demands much more proficiency and involvement from the teacher.
I also wonder how much the doctrine of gift ministries figured into this. As in, "God says I have the ministry of a teacher, so if you don't understand me, it's your problem."
whew...a sore spot with me fo sure....as I married a corpes man....for many years there was not any equality because he was expected to be the teacher ...you know had to bring me up to corpes standard...make sure I was up to snuff spiritually....if he didn`t ...it was HIS bu tt that was in the wringer....great doubt would be cast upon his spirituality.
Anyway, even after leaving it took many years for me to throw off the *student* mindset...to dare to speak up when necessary....to believe that I had the right to make decisions regarding myself and family.....to trust myself.....lol NOW they can`t shut me up ;-)
"Anyway, even after leaving it took many years for me to throw off the *student* mindset...to dare to speak up when necessary....to believe that I had the right to make decisions regarding myself and family.....to trust myself.....lol NOW they can`t shut me up ;-)
From a lot of posts, it sounds like you weren't alone. Even many of the so-called "teachers" were really just bound, gagged and told to repeat what was passed down. Must not make them feel like much of a "teacher." Not sure if "repeater" is a gift ministry or not.
quote:"I am the teacher, you are the student. That will never change. I refuse to allow you to teach me."
I never experienced this in twi twigs which were much more loving and informal; but I think this was the mandate in training programs such as corps and wow. Understandably so, you are there to "learn from us" mentality; do it our way, because we know best and "will lead you to do what's best." Problem is, when you're in that situation, you're limited to the excellence and/or ignorance of the folks doing the teaching and leading.
That's why I think the Sixth Corps (6) (SICK) had so many problems cause there were so few real leaders who knew what they were doing; novices really.
I don't think it's a bad attitude to want to soak up and learn from someone who's more advanced than yourself; you just have to make darn sure they are better than you.
The "honor" of teaching was only bestowed upon those deemed "worthy". Nevermind the teaching in the Bible about "the least of these....".
Those teachers were also usually the WC leadership and, although they taught that the greatest leader is the greatest servant, I never saw a WC at the back of the food line or anything else for that matter. Every TWI function I went to made sure that the "people" (aka peons) waited to be called upon to serve themselves after watching all the WC/LC/BC/RC go through the line or have their food served to them.
(sorry, is this a derail? Should I start a new topic?)
Oh yeah! Remember lcm teaching about the lesbian thing with Eve and then pausing and saying, "Do you see it? (laugh) "Well, I do!" Like that should be enough for us to believe it. The gall of that man! Sad thing is, that is all that it took for most of us to believe it.
Thank you all for responding! It really helps to get things out of my head and look at them where the light is better. ;)--> :D-->
Great point ExC! And I am sure you are aware there will come the day that you and your child will communicate with one another as adults...when the roles of parent/child will no longer be needed. Then I know you know there will come the day when the parent/child role will reverse...and the child will be buying Depends. :D--> Ain't life grand!?!?!?
LMAO, JT!
Bramble, my skin still crawls thinking about the absolute spitting rage this "teacher" spewed when I refused to accept what he was "teaching" as valid. He even went so far as to tell me that I have a spirit of pride and then to "remind" me that people like me are to be M&A. --> This all started over me telling him that I wanted to get to know Jesus' words and follow Jesus' example instead of Paul's. -->
dmiller....yep!
UH...conditioning...what a perfect word here! Puts a whole new perspective on things.
RG, very interesting points. "If you are a true teacher and one single pupil does not understand what you are teaching, you have failed." I remember telling this guy that if he will not consider my words or the words of any of his other "students", then eventually his words will be ignored. BTW...he has a whole lot of "education" behind him...working on his doctorate last I heard...don't know if any of his learning involved learning how to teach...because, doncha know, he has the gift ministry of a teacher...sigh...
Shaz, exactly. How does one know one has the gift ministry of a teacher? How do others know this about one?
rascal, if you ever shut up, I'm coming after you to personally make you talk!!!! LOL ;)--> I'm sorry you or anyone else went through such things.
Goey, is arrogance related to pride? ;)--> I have run away from this person...but looking back is hard to stop doing...I've known him for 29 years...sigh...
OM, thank you for your very interesting input! This particular person is very, very old school twi...got involved early...I met him in '75. He wasn't like this then...was like this only after he came out of corpse. :(-->
Belle, no derail imo...'cause I'm not trying to teach you anything! LOL! :D--> ;)--> I wasn't around when the Eve/lesbian teaching came out. If I had been, I don't think I could have held in my uproarious guffaws!!!!!!! I could hardly hold in the giggles when the guy I'm talking about was baptizing me with his spit. LOL ;)-->
Lol...ok Cw...thanks....and thanks JT ...What is wierd is....that it really wasn`t Mark that kept me at the student (subserviant) level...it was ME who didn`t believe that I had the right to question the corpes/teacher/man of God/husband....as I had been conditioned to think when in twi.
TOO wierd...when I finally busted loose and began to tell him what I REAAAALLY (shoot after ONLY 15 years of marriage) thought...he was agahst....was genuinely puzzled and hurt that I hadn`t felt like I was equal or that had been afraid to speak up....
Incidently... It wasn`t HIM that I was afraid of...but the fear of not being a virtuous Godly type of woman...a dissapointment to God for being rebellious....that is what kept me silent and obediant when I should of spoken up with him and in twi as well...
It was pretty memorable for me when he confided that he was darn glad not to be shouldering the entire burden of decision making alone anymore......really, I can see now that my contributions before that had amounted to little more than living life with a mindless bobble head doll...... lol
I got the opportunity to teach twigs a number of times when I first become involved in TWI - but this was after I had taken PFAL. Other believers in the area got their turn at teaching fellowships too. This was in the mid 70's, and of course I got plenty of opportunity to teach fellowships while a WOW ambassador - but again this was in the 70's.
Things got more tight handed in TWI right after the POP and I never got asked by a twig leader if I wanted to teach at fellowship after that. I think people not being able to teach at fellowship had a big effect on the fellowships in the area falling apart. I guess the twig leader was probably afraid somebody would teach something off the Word.
*AFRAID* that someone would teach something off the word....lol you are probably right wth.... The only thing ALLOWED to be taught after a while was regurgitation from Craigs classes, only the books that standing grads wrote, and sts tapes...so many of which truly were *OFF the word*
That which they greatly FEARED came upon them!
rofl I guess that little gem applied in this case anyway...
My second kid is a chemistry major in college, already thinking about going on to grad school. She got to do some research work with polymers this past summer, and to present her findings at a meeting of other scientists.
You know how much I know about chem? Nada! I am so impressed when she tries to explain to me what she is studying, and I am lost after about 3 sentences (well, not entirely lost, but mostly). And the cool thing is, I don't even feel like I need to know what she knows, or to somehow prove I am on a par with her. She can teach me what I should know, or what I'm curious to know. I used to teach her how to dance for her gymnastics floor routine, and how to do the laundry, among other things. She taught me some things about gymnastics that made me a better coach. And she taught me a lot about independence, and humor.
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excathedra
i am a parent and my child is my child. that will never change, but he teaches me things all the time and i have no problem recognizing it and telling him so
my greatest teachers in life definitely were NOT way honchos
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JustThinking
Exie, great point!
CW,
I think the translation according to usage is "I am in control and that will never change."
- From I Victor Chapter 1, verse 1. (From the Geek translation)
No group I have ever worked with in any way had WayFerLand's bizarre view of the all-knowing teacher. This is a case of "no, it's not you. It's them."
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Bramble
Another big difference between TWI teachers and secular teachers--the latter type doesn't get personally offended and enraged if their students don't 'get' it. Instead they try giving it more time, or another method of instruction etc.
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dmiller
True. Nor do they think they have a calling from God, that has to be brow-beaten into said "students", like some others we all know of.
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GrouchoMarxJr
A true teacher is humble...sensitive to the needs of the student and striving for interaction...objective learning, where questions are welcomed and the student is never made to feel inferior or controlled.
Twi's methods were not "teaching" in the true sense...it was more like "conditioning".
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Research Geek
The most important task of a teacher is believing. That is: to get a mental picture of all the students "getting it", being able to understand the material and apply it. One does not need an annointing to teach or to believe. There are many inspiring secular teachers who use more of the gamut of teaching techniques than most people who have ever taught at twi.
I dare to say that most of the people who taught at twi never received any formal secular college level training on the wide range of methods of how to do it. Most just had reoccuring opportunities to teach at the local and "higher" levels and once they reached a certain reputation, thought they were good teachers. Then with twi2, the ego entered in and they demanded that the rank and file revere them as something special. Once that set in, they basically became worthless.
If you are a true teacher and one single pupil does not understand what you are teaching, you have failed.
For the most part, twi only centered on the lecture method and hardly ever used the socratic method. The latter is much more effective, but demands much more proficiency and involvement from the teacher.
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shazdancer
I also wonder how much the doctrine of gift ministries figured into this. As in, "God says I have the ministry of a teacher, so if you don't understand me, it's your problem."
Regards,
Shaz
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rascal
whew...a sore spot with me fo sure....as I married a corpes man....for many years there was not any equality because he was expected to be the teacher ...you know had to bring me up to corpes standard...make sure I was up to snuff spiritually....if he didn`t ...it was HIS bu tt that was in the wringer....great doubt would be cast upon his spirituality.
Anyway, even after leaving it took many years for me to throw off the *student* mindset...to dare to speak up when necessary....to believe that I had the right to make decisions regarding myself and family.....to trust myself.....lol NOW they can`t shut me up ;-)
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Goey
What will probably never change is this "teacher's" arrogance and inability to truly teach God's Word. Run away from this person and never look back.
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JustThinking
Rascal,
"Anyway, even after leaving it took many years for me to throw off the *student* mindset...to dare to speak up when necessary....to believe that I had the right to make decisions regarding myself and family.....to trust myself.....lol NOW they can`t shut me up ;-)
From a lot of posts, it sounds like you weren't alone. Even many of the so-called "teachers" were really just bound, gagged and told to repeat what was passed down. Must not make them feel like much of a "teacher." Not sure if "repeater" is a gift ministry or not.
Glad you found your voice!
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oldiesman
That's why I think the Sixth Corps (6) (SICK) had so many problems cause there were so few real leaders who knew what they were doing; novices really.
I don't think it's a bad attitude to want to soak up and learn from someone who's more advanced than yourself; you just have to make darn sure they are better than you.
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Belle
Excellent topic, CW!
The "honor" of teaching was only bestowed upon those deemed "worthy". Nevermind the teaching in the Bible about "the least of these....".
Those teachers were also usually the WC leadership and, although they taught that the greatest leader is the greatest servant, I never saw a WC at the back of the food line or anything else for that matter. Every TWI function I went to made sure that the "people" (aka peons) waited to be called upon to serve themselves after watching all the WC/LC/BC/RC go through the line or have their food served to them.
(sorry, is this a derail? Should I start a new topic?)
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Belle
Oh yeah! Remember lcm teaching about the lesbian thing with Eve and then pausing and saying, "Do you see it? (laugh) "Well, I do!" Like that should be enough for us to believe it. The gall of that man! Sad thing is, that is all that it took for most of us to believe it.
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CoolWaters
Thank you all for responding! It really helps to get things out of my head and look at them where the light is better.
;)--> 
:D-->
Great point ExC! And I am sure you are aware there will come the day that you and your child will communicate with one another as adults...when the roles of parent/child will no longer be needed. Then I know you know there will come the day when the parent/child role will reverse...and the child will be buying Depends.
:D--> Ain't life grand!?!?!?
LMAO, JT!
Bramble, my skin still crawls thinking about the absolute spitting rage this "teacher" spewed when I refused to accept what he was "teaching" as valid. He even went so far as to tell me that I have a spirit of pride and then to "remind" me that people like me are to be M&A.
--> This all started over me telling him that I wanted to get to know Jesus' words and follow Jesus' example instead of Paul's. 
-->
dmiller....yep!
UH...conditioning...what a perfect word here! Puts a whole new perspective on things.
RG, very interesting points. "If you are a true teacher and one single pupil does not understand what you are teaching, you have failed." I remember telling this guy that if he will not consider my words or the words of any of his other "students", then eventually his words will be ignored. BTW...he has a whole lot of "education" behind him...working on his doctorate last I heard...don't know if any of his learning involved learning how to teach...because, doncha know, he has the gift ministry of a teacher...sigh...
Shaz, exactly. How does one know one has the gift ministry of a teacher? How do others know this about one?
rascal, if you ever shut up, I'm coming after you to personally make you talk!!!! LOL
;)--> I'm sorry you or anyone else went through such things.
Goey, is arrogance related to pride?
;)--> I have run away from this person...but looking back is hard to stop doing...I've known him for 29 years...sigh...
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CoolWaters
OM, thank you for your very interesting input! This particular person is very, very old school twi...got involved early...I met him in '75. He wasn't like this then...was like this only after he came out of corpse.
:(-->
Belle, no derail imo...'cause I'm not trying to teach you anything! LOL!
:D--> 
;)--> I wasn't around when the Eve/lesbian teaching came out. If I had been, I don't think I could have held in my uproarious guffaws!!!!!!! I could hardly hold in the giggles when the guy I'm talking about was baptizing me with his spit. LOL 
;)-->
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CoolWaters
I think I've buried my own question!
How does the gift ministry of Teacher work?
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rascal
Lol...ok Cw...thanks....and thanks JT ...What is wierd is....that it really wasn`t Mark that kept me at the student (subserviant) level...it was ME who didn`t believe that I had the right to question the corpes/teacher/man of God/husband....as I had been conditioned to think when in twi.
TOO wierd...when I finally busted loose and began to tell him what I REAAAALLY (shoot after ONLY 15 years of marriage) thought...he was agahst....was genuinely puzzled and hurt that I hadn`t felt like I was equal or that had been afraid to speak up....
Incidently... It wasn`t HIM that I was afraid of...but the fear of not being a virtuous Godly type of woman...a dissapointment to God for being rebellious....that is what kept me silent and obediant when I should of spoken up with him and in twi as well...
It was pretty memorable for me when he confided that he was darn glad not to be shouldering the entire burden of decision making alone anymore......really, I can see now that my contributions before that had amounted to little more than living life with a mindless bobble head doll...... lol
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excathedra
cw,
you're going to have to write:
the teacher
box 328
new knoxville oh 45871
isn't it amazing what we can remember after all these years ? is it our minds are so amazing or that conditioning thingy ?
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Trefor Heywood
If one wrote to that address now I wonder who would get it?
Clearly not RR she couldn't teach a snake to suck eggs!
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What The Hay
I got the opportunity to teach twigs a number of times when I first become involved in TWI - but this was after I had taken PFAL. Other believers in the area got their turn at teaching fellowships too. This was in the mid 70's, and of course I got plenty of opportunity to teach fellowships while a WOW ambassador - but again this was in the 70's.
Things got more tight handed in TWI right after the POP and I never got asked by a twig leader if I wanted to teach at fellowship after that. I think people not being able to teach at fellowship had a big effect on the fellowships in the area falling apart. I guess the twig leader was probably afraid somebody would teach something off the Word.
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rascal
*AFRAID* that someone would teach something off the word....lol you are probably right wth.... The only thing ALLOWED to be taught after a while was regurgitation from Craigs classes, only the books that standing grads wrote, and sts tapes...so many of which truly were *OFF the word*
That which they greatly FEARED came upon them!
rofl I guess that little gem applied in this case anyway...
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CoolWaters
OMG ExC!!!!!!!!! That's the best laugh I've had all day!!!!!!!
And Trevor...can't teach a snake to suck eggs...LAMO!!!!!!!!
rascal....LMAO!!!!
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shazdancer
About the child becoming the teacher:
My second kid is a chemistry major in college, already thinking about going on to grad school. She got to do some research work with polymers this past summer, and to present her findings at a meeting of other scientists.
You know how much I know about chem? Nada! I am so impressed when she tries to explain to me what she is studying, and I am lost after about 3 sentences (well, not entirely lost, but mostly). And the cool thing is, I don't even feel like I need to know what she knows, or to somehow prove I am on a par with her. She can teach me what I should know, or what I'm curious to know. I used to teach her how to dance for her gymnastics floor routine, and how to do the laundry, among other things. She taught me some things about gymnastics that made me a better coach. And she taught me a lot about independence, and humor.
Isn't this how it's s'posed to be?
Regards,
Proud Mom
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excathedra
that's really beautiful, proud mom
my son almost got in trouble last night for getting in too late, it was already dark
the reason he was late.... he walked a 12 year old girl home because he didn't want anything to happen to her (he'll be 10 this week)
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