The only reason that twi is still in existance is because of the assets. If they suddenly found themselves having to sell off the remainder of their properties and couldn't get paychecks anymore...they'd all fold up the tents and go home. You know as well as I do that if the money all evaporated, so would they.
Does anybody really know what their financial situation is? They couldn't be hauling in THAT much revenue. With all the properties to maintain and the salaries, etc. etc...I'm sure that things must be tight. Back in Wierwille's hayday, he didn't know what to do with all the frickin' money...(I know, lets buy a castle in Scotland!)...but no more. I mean, are they actually making dough, selling lcm's class? Whose books are they selling? How many? I know they used to make a pretty penny on all those "advances" they used to run, but how about today? Does anybody know anything?
Let's see....
Salaries...
Salaries for the most part have always been subsistence wages on grounds,
unless you had "juice". So, how many people on grounds still have
"juice"? (Everybody else's wages barely count as a blip on the radar,
even all together.)
Properties....
Which properties are still owned? Which were sold off? Which are not
being maintained? (No staff, but not a moneymaker either.)
lcm's class....
Doesn't sound like it's cost-effective compared to the effort of pushing
that class.
Books...
What's still selling? We do know they authorize "special editions" and
convince people to get new copies of old books...
Advances....
Events like "Advanced Class Specials" still run, it seems.
Tithes...
I don't know if they're currently pushing 10% or 15% of income.
Investments....
These still exist, but I know nothing about them.
====
Can someone who knows something on the above subjects fill in some of
Seems I recall hearing a rumor many years ago that they lost a bit playing the stock market, somehow relative to the building of the auditorium (I can't recall the details now, and it was, after all, a rumor so many years ago circ. '87).
If there is anything at all to this, I imagine that they would have not so easily surrendered the habit of playing the market.
Perhaps they haven't done so well lately, considering their act of re-opening their bookstore to the public. We can be sure such an action on their part wasn't out of love.
I find it interesting that they reopened their bookstore around the same time that "The Passion" was released, perhaps hoping to catch a few Aramaic waves of interest to sell those works.
Shoot, if they had any depth of vision , they could have improved their advertisement (outside of that awful infomercial) and might have even promoted "Jesus Christ our Passover" to their advantage at the same time.
As WW said, they pay peanuts. LCs on the field can put in 40 hours or more just for TWI and get NO pay. Apparently, they are not "full time" employees. BCs and TCs get no pay for the most part. Certainly no TC.
Properties....
Which properties are still owned? Which were sold off? Which are not
being maintained? (No staff, but not a moneymaker either.)
HQ and Gunnison (Gunnison is actually owned under a separate corporation) There may be other properties owned under other corporate names.
lcm's class....
They are still milking this one even if most of the students are kids of old grads. It costs them nothing to promote and probably have boxes of materials sitting in storage. If all they care about is cash, they'll stick with this until the use up the old syllabus, books, etc. Then they'll get new "revelation" when they're ready to go to print with the new stuff. The sad news is that they'll recycle their whole group through yet another class for MO' MONEY.
Books...
Not a barn burner would be my guess. There is still a trickle of new people coming in. VERY few stayed but they were usually good for a few sales before catching on to TWI
Advances....
They still do them. Smaller, of course, but they are easy money. The last one I attended was a rehash of old teaching and could have been put together in no time. It was a pathetic effort with nothing new. Think TWIs biggest twig meeting but you paid a couple of hundred bucks to attend. Oh, and the visiting teacher gets a HUGE suite.
Tithes...
No change when I left.
Investments....
Like properties. Could exist under other corporate names.
Yeah, as long as the money flows one way -- "downhill" to twi's belly, the organization will continue to gorge on "its fruit."
From what I understand, besides its investments the biggest moneymaker for twi is the abundant sharing. Heck, they don't put any field person on salary unless there are about 100 grads throwing money into the horn each week. And, MANY states have fallen below this level and now have NO FULLTIME CORPS in their state at all.
Its a numbers game. Twi has crunched these numbers for years and know the game all to well.
If the hq staffers' paychecks stopped today, those security guys would be boarding up the buildings as their final assignment for twi.
a while back someone posted the assets listed in their tax records I think....anyway...they still had over 40 million in assets as of a couple of years ago......
It would seem that they STILL have plenty to keep themselves operating comfortably.
It really bites don`t it??? They are still functioning from OUR blood sweat and toils...can you believe it???
Geeze...all of those things we did for *God* ...all of those years...the money given....the years of our lives that we spent maintaining and improving those properties....the sacrifices WE made are keeping those monsters afloat.
Having lived close to Emporia for years....all of the time spent improving the place...n then the bod sells it and pockets alla the money....it was the same with all of the other properties that twi has disposed of....rome city...plains...etc
Anyway....they are enjoying the fruits of OUR labor...the fruit of our youth.....they are enjoying the money and benefets from what should have been OUR retirement funds.... and it would seem they they will be able to for some time yet....sigh
Check with proberge's site. He has gotten religious organization state disclosure records from Arizona I think. They require a religious org. registered in their state to fully disclose their assets to the state. These are public records so proberge got copies for about 1997 to 2001 if I remember right.
The essense of it is during all that time TWI's assets were around $44 million. Half was in properties and the other half was cash.
One of the things the early reports showed was that the so called lean years ('96 -'98?) where they bemoaned they were out of money and couldn't pay all those salaried way corps never happened. That was when they sold all the limb homes, the campuses, the planes and busses, and cut back on staff and way corps salaries.
Remember, if the almighty TWI was paying your salary, you better not spend it on tobacco or pets or getting pregnant. Yep, that would get you ostrasized, demoted and fired in an instant.
The $44 mil at the end was about the same as it was before the going broke propaganda. The interest off the $22 mil in cash assets could easily keep TWI running for many years.
quote:The $44 mil at the end was about the same as it was before the going broke propaganda. The interest off the $22 mil in cash assets could easily keep TWI running for many years.
Nice charts, they showed a minor dip for the lean years, roughly 10% of their assets. They easily brought it back up with a few property sales. And now it is inincreasing again. (For some reason. I couldn't raise the pdf files for 2003.) Again thanks for your efforts. :)-->
Hey there oldiesman,
I'm afraid I'm "forcibly" retired due to chronic health problems. I'm getting some compensation from the Veterans Administration and working on getting SS Disability. I'll be ok after I get that started.
Too bad too, my former company is making big time bucks right now. Oh well.
What it looks like to me is the "bible stuff" is just a front for their investment business. 44 million hogs to work with! Sorta like the guy who had a "pizza shop" that made a few bucks while the bookie made tons of dough operating out of the back room.
And yeah...that 44 million represents the money and the hard work that we all put into this thing... ...The very people who made that 44 million a reality for them are no longer welcome on the property. Is it unreasonable to think that they could be sued into bancruptcy?
Is it unreasonable to think that they could be sued into bancruptcy?
Probably. You can't just sue someone because you put in hard work and they got all the cash. You can't sue because you're no longer welcome on property they bought with your gift. Remember a tithe is legally a gift. A gift is different from a payment. There are promises and strings attached to a payment - you can sue if those promises aren't met in a fraudulent way. But not for a gift.
You can't sue someone because you thought you were doing god's work and now you don't think that anymore - even if they had a big hand in helping you decide to think that.
You can sue someone for mistreating an employee (which I presume was the basis for the Allen and Parker suits). You can sue someone for actual fraud in a business deal. I believe years ago a guy in a wheel chair sued for being promised that if he tithed he would be healed. Don't know the legal basis or details of that suit.
The legal system is not set up to compensate for every moral wrong or emotional hurt that people do to each other. Sorry but that's not what it's for. You have to deal with that stuff in other ways.
You can sue someone for actual fraud in a business deal. I believe years ago a guy in a wheel chair sued for being promised that if he tithed he would be healed. Don't know the legal basis or details of that suit.
Yes, I remember reading about that in, of all things, Penthouse Magazine (shutup, I was doing biblical research! :D--> ) Of course, we never heard about this in the fellowships - can't promote negatives, dontcha know.
Here's a link to the article (don't worry, it's on the People United for Religious Freedom site, not on a porno site):
Thanks for that. Earnest Angley's place in Akron was (I believe) an inspiration to vpw. I went there with about 5 others doing research into how they built their TV studio back when the way was aquiring TV equipment.
Just how long can they live on the interest given that they have practically no staff at Gunnison and no interest in the remaining grads to join the elite group?
Membership continues to dwindle as teens get old enough to make their own decisions and so do the coffers, I'm sure. If they have to start dipping into the secret bounty, how long will it sustain them?
If I was counting on TWI to supply my retirement, would you recommend I start scrambling? I mean, IF THEY WERE TO KEEP THEIR WORD that they would take care of me....would I need to worry that they would not be able to?
quote:It all depends on whether the current hurricanes that hit the grand caymen islands destroyed the banks where TWI's allegedly has accounts
Pat, I have "speculated" on that and maybe some others have too, but I am not aware of any allegations to that effect. Do you know who has made these allegations?
Interest on 22 million in short term investments (Assuming TWI's financial statement is marginally accurate) would barely make the payroll, insurance and property upkeep.
One lawsuit setlement could wipe out most if not all of the interest and God only knows what TWI is spending insurance and attorney fees.
So TWI needs ABS pretty badly in order for the BOT to maintain the lifesyles they have been accustomed to over the years - (Manicured lawns, personal servants, Bahama vacations, etc). Without sufficient ABS they would either have to sell property or dip into the 22 million cash principle.
My guess is that ABS attrition, and legal expenses have been the main reasons for staffing cuts and property sales. (Anyone know how many are on staff now?) Also, free labor from the Corps is now almost non-existant so staff must be paid to do that now.
Consider also that TWI sold both the Indiana Campus and Emporia, yet the total assets remain close to the same - meaning that TWI was hurting financally and needed the cash which could produce income, vs the properties which represented an expense.
My guess is that the BOT is feeling some financial pressure as they see some of their little nest egg slipping away.
The more lawsuits the better to hack away at TWI's ill-gotten booty. If the ABS continues to decline and the lawsuits continue maybe they will have to dip into the 22 million or maybe even be forced to sell Gunnision (est value 16 million). BTW, as far as I can tell Gunnison is a separate corporate entity and is not reported as an asset in TWIs financials.
Who knows - maybe one day Rosie, Donna and and gang might even have to make their own beds or even cook a meal for themselves. But unless something really bad happens these folks and a few others are pretty much set for life - maybe not with servants but set anyway.
Last I looked, the Way Credit Union had deposits of about 8.8 million - Gee, I wonder who the main depositors could be? I wonder how much of that is Rosie's or Craig's or Howard's?
Here's an interesting tidbit - The Way Credit Union has 1 Part Time & 4 Full Time employees, yet they have not processed a loan in in years. In fact they offer almost no services to their members except retirement accounts - no mortgage loans, auto loans, no debit/credit cards - nothing. I wonder what these people actually do?
Also, according to reports filed with the NCUA, The Way Credit Union plans to have a Web Site within the next month or so. It is http://www.thewaycu.org - (Nothing there yet except a few empty directories.)
Interesting stuff Goey....and the assets belong to? The three BOD members?
22 million cash principle split three ways?...they could still have servants I would wager...and that's not to mention the 16 million in Gunnison and the 8.8 million in the credit union...geeze louise...If they were to liquidate and split the dough, would it then be taxable?
I would be curious to know who the 5 employees are, how much they are paid, and who they had to bend over for, to get such a cush job.
So, the proceeds from the sales of Rome city and Emporia were sucked into the black hole of paying off bills...and of course, that was martindales fault. Wierwille handed him a thriving business on a silver platter...all he had to do was "keep the trains running on time" and count all the money. Instead, in his infinite wisdom, he decided to dismantle the three main sources for growth and income...the WOW program, the ROA and pfal. What a stroke of genius! Was this guy a moron or what?
He had to go beyond PFAL. And for that I still don't fault him. As well, he was not dependent upon others for his "every thought" both in regards to spiritual matters and life. But as much as I feel he DESERVES his present consequences I have reached the point in my growth that I can give him credit regardless of what flames incurred here for it.
The ROA was exhausting; many of us worked a 40 hour week and missed several of the meetings. Had to rely on others notes, or get the teaching cassettes the following morning. We were there and didn't get to hear what we came for (supposedly). The end of the wow program facilitated this decision, but he was already considering things due to our fatigue from working and caring for nearly as many children as adults in attendance, which was another factor of his decision. Also teens having sex there, even though others have said it was a main reason, was not.
The wow program was, in his opinion, contaminated with homosexuality. Pretty much the lion's share of why that program ended.
In all three cases had they continued just as they were it would have made not one iota of difference. The fact there were a couple of women willing to suffer the PRICE for their bravery, and that is what it was, would soon begin the task of bringing twi to it's knees.
We can go back to "draw the line in 89" and how Geer caused probably the most single important event regarding mass leaving, but had it not been for the women, NOT Geer or changing/eliminating programs it may still be growing, not ever to be close to the nearly 30,000 in attendance of the mid 80's, but it would still be growing not dying.
And if anyone thinks I am a Craig apologist, well you are wrong.
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WordWolf
Let's see....
Salaries...
Salaries for the most part have always been subsistence wages on grounds,
unless you had "juice". So, how many people on grounds still have
"juice"? (Everybody else's wages barely count as a blip on the radar,
even all together.)
Properties....
Which properties are still owned? Which were sold off? Which are not
being maintained? (No staff, but not a moneymaker either.)
lcm's class....
Doesn't sound like it's cost-effective compared to the effort of pushing
that class.
Books...
What's still selling? We do know they authorize "special editions" and
convince people to get new copies of old books...
Advances....
Events like "Advanced Class Specials" still run, it seems.
Tithes...
I don't know if they're currently pushing 10% or 15% of income.
Investments....
These still exist, but I know nothing about them.
====
Can someone who knows something on the above subjects fill in some of
the blanks?
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TheInvisibleDan
Seems I recall hearing a rumor many years ago that they lost a bit playing the stock market, somehow relative to the building of the auditorium (I can't recall the details now, and it was, after all, a rumor so many years ago circ. '87).
If there is anything at all to this, I imagine that they would have not so easily surrendered the habit of playing the market.
Perhaps they haven't done so well lately, considering their act of re-opening their bookstore to the public. We can be sure such an action on their part wasn't out of love.
I find it interesting that they reopened their bookstore around the same time that "The Passion" was released, perhaps hoping to catch a few Aramaic waves of interest to sell those works.
Shoot, if they had any depth of vision , they could have improved their advertisement (outside of that awful infomercial) and might have even promoted "Jesus Christ our Passover" to their advantage at the same time.
Danny
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JustThinking
(WW, I borrowed your list)
As of 18 months ago:
Salaries...
As WW said, they pay peanuts. LCs on the field can put in 40 hours or more just for TWI and get NO pay. Apparently, they are not "full time" employees. BCs and TCs get no pay for the most part. Certainly no TC.
Properties....
Which properties are still owned? Which were sold off? Which are not
being maintained? (No staff, but not a moneymaker either.)
HQ and Gunnison (Gunnison is actually owned under a separate corporation) There may be other properties owned under other corporate names.
lcm's class....
They are still milking this one even if most of the students are kids of old grads. It costs them nothing to promote and probably have boxes of materials sitting in storage. If all they care about is cash, they'll stick with this until the use up the old syllabus, books, etc. Then they'll get new "revelation" when they're ready to go to print with the new stuff. The sad news is that they'll recycle their whole group through yet another class for MO' MONEY.
Books...
Not a barn burner would be my guess. There is still a trickle of new people coming in. VERY few stayed but they were usually good for a few sales before catching on to TWI
Advances....
They still do them. Smaller, of course, but they are easy money. The last one I attended was a rehash of old teaching and could have been put together in no time. It was a pathetic effort with nothing new. Think TWIs biggest twig meeting but you paid a couple of hundred bucks to attend. Oh, and the visiting teacher gets a HUGE suite.
Tithes...
No change when I left.
Investments....
Like properties. Could exist under other corporate names.
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skyrider
UH,
Yeah, as long as the money flows one way -- "downhill" to twi's belly, the organization will continue to gorge on "its fruit."
From what I understand, besides its investments the biggest moneymaker for twi is the abundant sharing. Heck, they don't put any field person on salary unless there are about 100 grads throwing money into the horn each week. And, MANY states have fallen below this level and now have NO FULLTIME CORPS in their state at all.
Its a numbers game. Twi has crunched these numbers for years and know the game all to well.
If the hq staffers' paychecks stopped today, those security guys would be boarding up the buildings as their final assignment for twi.
skyrider
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rascal
a while back someone posted the assets listed in their tax records I think....anyway...they still had over 40 million in assets as of a couple of years ago......
It would seem that they STILL have plenty to keep themselves operating comfortably.
It really bites don`t it??? They are still functioning from OUR blood sweat and toils...can you believe it???
Geeze...all of those things we did for *God* ...all of those years...the money given....the years of our lives that we spent maintaining and improving those properties....the sacrifices WE made are keeping those monsters afloat.
Having lived close to Emporia for years....all of the time spent improving the place...n then the bod sells it and pockets alla the money....it was the same with all of the other properties that twi has disposed of....rome city...plains...etc
Anyway....they are enjoying the fruits of OUR labor...the fruit of our youth.....they are enjoying the money and benefets from what should have been OUR retirement funds.... and it would seem they they will be able to for some time yet....sigh
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Steve!
Hegotout posted about a year ago or so that TWIt's got something like $40 MILLION in assets.
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dabobbada
Uncle Hairy and all y'all,
Check with proberge's site. He has gotten religious organization state disclosure records from Arizona I think. They require a religious org. registered in their state to fully disclose their assets to the state. These are public records so proberge got copies for about 1997 to 2001 if I remember right.
The essense of it is during all that time TWI's assets were around $44 million. Half was in properties and the other half was cash.
One of the things the early reports showed was that the so called lean years ('96 -'98?) where they bemoaned they were out of money and couldn't pay all those salaried way corps never happened. That was when they sold all the limb homes, the campuses, the planes and busses, and cut back on staff and way corps salaries.
Remember, if the almighty TWI was paying your salary, you better not spend it on tobacco or pets or getting pregnant. Yep, that would get you ostrasized, demoted and fired in an instant.
The $44 mil at the end was about the same as it was before the going broke propaganda. The interest off the $22 mil in cash assets could easily keep TWI running for many years.
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pjroberge
Bob:
The information I compiled on TWI's financials is posted at:
1987-2001
http://www.excultworld.com/misc%20stuff/TWI%20Financials.htm
2002
http://www.excultworld.com/scanned_documents/TWI2002.htm
2003
http://www.excultworld.com/pdf-docs/TWI%20...0Financials.pdf
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oldiesman
I agree.
How's it going, dabobbadoabatadata?
Love ya.
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dabobbada
Thanks pjroberge,
Nice charts, they showed a minor dip for the lean years, roughly 10% of their assets. They easily brought it back up with a few property sales. And now it is inincreasing again. (For some reason. I couldn't raise the pdf files for 2003.) Again thanks for your efforts.
:)-->
Hey there oldiesman,
I'm afraid I'm "forcibly" retired due to chronic health problems. I'm getting some compensation from the Veterans Administration and working on getting SS Disability. I'll be ok after I get that started.
Too bad too, my former company is making big time bucks right now. Oh well.
Maybe I should sue TWI too.
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
I trust you and yours are doing well?
Good seeing you again, love you too.
:)-->
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DaddyHoundog
it sure isn't about the people
there makin' more on interst than on abundant forced sharing
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GrouchoMarxJr
What it looks like to me is the "bible stuff" is just a front for their investment business. 44 million hogs to work with!
Sorta like the guy who had a "pizza shop" that made a few bucks while the bookie made tons of dough operating out of the back room.
And yeah...that 44 million represents the money and the hard work that we all put into this thing...
...The very people who made that 44 million a reality for them are no longer welcome on the property. Is it unreasonable to think that they could be sued into bancruptcy?
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My3Cents
Probably. You can't just sue someone because you put in hard work and they got all the cash. You can't sue because you're no longer welcome on property they bought with your gift. Remember a tithe is legally a gift. A gift is different from a payment. There are promises and strings attached to a payment - you can sue if those promises aren't met in a fraudulent way. But not for a gift.
You can't sue someone because you thought you were doing god's work and now you don't think that anymore - even if they had a big hand in helping you decide to think that.
You can sue someone for mistreating an employee (which I presume was the basis for the Allen and Parker suits). You can sue someone for actual fraud in a business deal. I believe years ago a guy in a wheel chair sued for being promised that if he tithed he would be healed. Don't know the legal basis or details of that suit.
The legal system is not set up to compensate for every moral wrong or emotional hurt that people do to each other. Sorry but that's not what it's for. You have to deal with that stuff in other ways.
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pjroberge
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Kevlar2000
Yes, I remember reading about that in, of all things, Penthouse Magazine (shutup, I was doing biblical research!
:D--> ) Of course, we never heard about this in the fellowships - can't promote negatives, dontcha know.
Here's a link to the article (don't worry, it's on the People United for Religious Freedom site, not on a porno site):
The God Biz
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My3Cents
Do you mind sharing the details of the fraud involved? Just curious.
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My3Cents
Thanks for that. Earnest Angley's place in Akron was (I believe) an inspiration to vpw. I went there with about 5 others doing research into how they built their TV studio back when the way was aquiring TV equipment.
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pjroberge
http://www.excultworld.com/Lawsuit%20Docum...20June%2014.pdf
http://www.excultworld.com/lawsuit_section.htm
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Belle
Just how long can they live on the interest given that they have practically no staff at Gunnison and no interest in the remaining grads to join the elite group?
Membership continues to dwindle as teens get old enough to make their own decisions and so do the coffers, I'm sure. If they have to start dipping into the secret bounty, how long will it sustain them?
If I was counting on TWI to supply my retirement, would you recommend I start scrambling? I mean, IF THEY WERE TO KEEP THEIR WORD that they would take care of me....would I need to worry that they would not be able to?
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pjroberge
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Goey
Pat, I have "speculated" on that and maybe some others have too, but I am not aware of any allegations to that effect. Do you know who has made these allegations?
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Goey
UH,
Interest on 22 million in short term investments (Assuming TWI's financial statement is marginally accurate) would barely make the payroll, insurance and property upkeep.
One lawsuit setlement could wipe out most if not all of the interest and God only knows what TWI is spending insurance and attorney fees.
So TWI needs ABS pretty badly in order for the BOT to maintain the lifesyles they have been accustomed to over the years - (Manicured lawns, personal servants, Bahama vacations, etc). Without sufficient ABS they would either have to sell property or dip into the 22 million cash principle.
My guess is that ABS attrition, and legal expenses have been the main reasons for staffing cuts and property sales. (Anyone know how many are on staff now?) Also, free labor from the Corps is now almost non-existant so staff must be paid to do that now.
Consider also that TWI sold both the Indiana Campus and Emporia, yet the total assets remain close to the same - meaning that TWI was hurting financally and needed the cash which could produce income, vs the properties which represented an expense.
My guess is that the BOT is feeling some financial pressure as they see some of their little nest egg slipping away.
The more lawsuits the better to hack away at TWI's ill-gotten booty. If the ABS continues to decline and the lawsuits continue maybe they will have to dip into the 22 million or maybe even be forced to sell Gunnision (est value 16 million). BTW, as far as I can tell Gunnison is a separate corporate entity and is not reported as an asset in TWIs financials.
Who knows - maybe one day Rosie, Donna and and gang might even have to make their own beds or even cook a meal for themselves. But unless something really bad happens these folks and a few others are pretty much set for life - maybe not with servants but set anyway.
Last I looked, the Way Credit Union had deposits of about 8.8 million - Gee, I wonder who the main depositors could be? I wonder how much of that is Rosie's or Craig's or Howard's?
Here's an interesting tidbit - The Way Credit Union has 1 Part Time & 4 Full Time employees, yet they have not processed a loan in in years. In fact they offer almost no services to their members except retirement accounts - no mortgage loans, auto loans, no debit/credit cards - nothing. I wonder what these people actually do?
Also, according to reports filed with the NCUA, The Way Credit Union plans to have a Web Site within the next month or so. It is http://www.thewaycu.org - (Nothing there yet except a few empty directories.)
The Way Credit Union's charter# is 66066.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Interesting stuff Goey....and the assets belong to? The three BOD members?
22 million cash principle split three ways?...they could still have servants I would wager...and that's not to mention the 16 million in Gunnison and the 8.8 million in the credit union...geeze louise...If they were to liquidate and split the dough, would it then be taxable?
I would be curious to know who the 5 employees are, how much they are paid, and who they had to bend over for, to get such a cush job.
So, the proceeds from the sales of Rome city and Emporia were sucked into the black hole of paying off bills...and of course, that was martindales fault. Wierwille handed him a thriving business on a silver platter...all he had to do was "keep the trains running on time" and count all the money. Instead, in his infinite wisdom, he decided to dismantle the three main sources for growth and income...the WOW program, the ROA and pfal. What a stroke of genius! Was this guy a moron or what?
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houseisarockin
A "moron" maybe but not for those reasons IMO.
He had to go beyond PFAL. And for that I still don't fault him. As well, he was not dependent upon others for his "every thought" both in regards to spiritual matters and life. But as much as I feel he DESERVES his present consequences I have reached the point in my growth that I can give him credit regardless of what flames incurred here for it.
The ROA was exhausting; many of us worked a 40 hour week and missed several of the meetings. Had to rely on others notes, or get the teaching cassettes the following morning. We were there and didn't get to hear what we came for (supposedly). The end of the wow program facilitated this decision, but he was already considering things due to our fatigue from working and caring for nearly as many children as adults in attendance, which was another factor of his decision. Also teens having sex there, even though others have said it was a main reason, was not.
The wow program was, in his opinion, contaminated with homosexuality. Pretty much the lion's share of why that program ended.
In all three cases had they continued just as they were it would have made not one iota of difference. The fact there were a couple of women willing to suffer the PRICE for their bravery, and that is what it was, would soon begin the task of bringing twi to it's knees.
We can go back to "draw the line in 89" and how Geer caused probably the most single important event regarding mass leaving, but had it not been for the women, NOT Geer or changing/eliminating programs it may still be growing, not ever to be close to the nearly 30,000 in attendance of the mid 80's, but it would still be growing not dying.
And if anyone thinks I am a Craig apologist, well you are wrong.
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