Is this behavior consistent with the behavior of Jesus Christ and the other believers,
I never knew JC, or Mohammed, or Moses but I can tell you more of the people I know that are intolerant, destructive and self-serving are believers of one sort or another. It seems a belief in god or the afterlife or righteousness allows some (not all) to allow themselves to be vile in the here and now.
Your question was about motives. I do believe that for many, their conscious motives and the effects of their lives are not always the same.
Christ speaks of having to forsake family and everything else to follow him. Many groups rely heavily on this passage to justify some of their actions.
I think in many ways TWI did act for Satan --however I don't think they woke up in the morning planning to do this.
THe big problem with TWI was that they held the collection basket in one hand and a copy of "
the Prince" in the other--somewhere along the line they got confused --they got to thinking "the Prince" and The Prince of Peace were one and the same
quote: How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
The shepherd losing even one sheep, goes out to find it, in order to save it -- NOT to make it a greasespot by midnight. -->
"I think in many ways TWI did act for Satan --however I don't think they woke up in the morning planning to do this."
I agree. There were wonderful people in TWI who did harm thinking they were "holding the line on the Word." I should know, I was one of them. :-( Not saying I was wonderful but did behave badly thinking that I was right.
quote:Christ speaks of having to forsake family and everything else to follow him. Many groups rely heavily on this passage to justify some of their actions.
As did TWI .... this is a good observation.
When I was involved, folks had a choice to stay only at the twig level, go to twig once a week, enjoy it, and live your life. Then there were folks who went further, went out WOW and Corps, presumably because of greater service to Christ. Those issues come back now to bite some because some see that as stealing from our lives, what otherwise would have been better. Don't know, I think each person has to answer that for themselves. But I do think God has honored / will honor our good works in the Lord.
quote:Hmmm and what will he do with our bad works in the lord?
quote:Is our culpability any less because our *motives* were good?
I think all that depends on the mind set and intent of the person making the decision, whether good or evil. Both good and evil were manifest in twi, therefore both good and evil applies.
I think God and Jesus, who have perfect understanding, are the ultimate Judges of these matters, matters of the intent of the heart and soul of a man.
quote:So...the consequences of evil wrought .. is LESS evil depending on our mindset at the time?
Some how the damage isn`t as destructive nor does it hurt as bad because of the persons intent?
We shouldn`t be angry or hold the perpetrators responsible because God knows intent of their heart?
Mindset and intent is key. When I went out wow, and witnessed, I didn't want to get folks into PFAL to take their money. I wanted to get folks in PFAL to win folks to the Lord Jesus Christ; and so they could have a greater knowledge and understanding of the bible, different than what I had from my previous RC upbringing, which didn't help me. Motives were not to steal, kill and destroy. I don't know that they were VPW's motives either. I certainly hope not.
quote:"I don't care if he was a plagiarist, molester, rapist, conman and overall fraud,
HE TAUGHT ME THE WOOOORD...I got mine-who cares if YOU suffer?"
It's a tough thing, but life does go on. Similarly, I think the folks in the first century had to deal with Saul's repentance, and teaching the woooooord after he murdered Christians. Perhaps some folks may not have taken to that whole thing very well. I'm thinking of a wife or child of a slain Christian, having to think of Paul now as repented and moving the woooooooord. But God's will is that all men be saved, and come to a knowledge of the truth. Ask yourself what's more important, forever focusing on the past sins of people, or reaching folks with the Good News?
Ummmm, OM, I don't know how to tell you this, but Paul repented. No one in TWI has repented or apologized, especially not your trusty ole slick vick. And Paul taught the word AFTER he repented. He changed. He then changed his life for the better and began helping others do the same. No comparison. Your analogy doesn't hold a single drop of water, or mint julep for that matter.
And, most people here would not take kindly to you comparing Paul with vic. I know I don't.
mindset is the key ... Have you a biblical reason to back that up oldies?
Had vp repented before he died...he would have apologised....he would have also warned us to remove those whom he taught the same vile practices from the spiritual head of our ministry.
As it was...they dragged twi the rest of the way down the toilet after his death.
Vp had it in his power to do amazing good in his life time....he chose instead to hurt
He had it within his power to enact great healing in the end....he chose not to...
Vp could have stopped the pain and destruction in the end by coming clean and warning us to remove lcm and the bot.....in his selfishness he refused.
He missed so many oportunities to attempt to repair the damage he wrought.....I don`t think much of his *intent* nor see how it mitigates his culpability.
Also, he may have confessed his sins before God on his deathbed, we just don't know.
quote: Vp could have stopped the pain and destruction in the end by coming clean and warning us to remove lcm and the bot.....in his selfishness he refused.
We don't know that the destruction wouldn't have occurred anyway, and besides, you think VPW warning us to remove LCM and the BOT would have helped? HA. I think that would have been a circus.
Yup...I believe that if he had come clean...the whole ministry wouldn`t have been in the dark concerning the spiritual nature of our leadership....we would have understood what changes had to be enacted...could have demanded change...would not have been groping in the dark for solutions to the crisis.
He didn`t give a damn....and even his wifes words the day of his funeral condemns him
I think all that depends on the mind set and intent of the person making the decision, whether good or evil. Both good and evil were manifest in twi, therefore both good and evil applies.
I think God and Jesus, who have perfect understanding, are the ultimate Judges of these matters, matters of the intent of the heart and soul of a man.
____________________________________
To quote another more famous, more humble, and more spiritual person,
"Not everyone who saith unto me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
And:
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Matthew 7: 21-23.
I don't have the privilege of sending anyone one place or the other. Nor would I want the responsibility.
The Pharisees were not evil just to be evil. They believed in their hearts that they were actually doing God's will. Reference the fact that there had not been a prophet since the days of Malachi. They did as they were taught. They were sincere, disciplined, and dedicated to perform what they believed in their hearts was the will of God.
Not unlike a cornfield cult in New Knoxville, Ohio. An organization that if indeed God had sent prophets there, they were summarily chased out, dumped, and defamed.
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oenophile
IT IS WRITTEN...by their fruits you shall know them.
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My3Cents
I never knew JC, or Mohammed, or Moses but I can tell you more of the people I know that are intolerant, destructive and self-serving are believers of one sort or another. It seems a belief in god or the afterlife or righteousness allows some (not all) to allow themselves to be vile in the here and now.
Your question was about motives. I do believe that for many, their conscious motives and the effects of their lives are not always the same.
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templelady
Christ speaks of having to forsake family and everything else to follow him. Many groups rely heavily on this passage to justify some of their actions.
I think in many ways TWI did act for Satan --however I don't think they woke up in the morning planning to do this.
THe big problem with TWI was that they held the collection basket in one hand and a copy of "
the Prince" in the other--somewhere along the line they got confused --they got to thinking "the Prince" and The Prince of Peace were one and the same
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dmiller
Matthew 18:12 says it all ---
The shepherd losing even one sheep, goes out to find it, in order to save it -- NOT to make it a greasespot by midnight.
-->
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JustThinking
Templelady quote:
"I think in many ways TWI did act for Satan --however I don't think they woke up in the morning planning to do this."
I agree. There were wonderful people in TWI who did harm thinking they were "holding the line on the Word." I should know, I was one of them. :-( Not saying I was wonderful but did behave badly thinking that I was right.
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Radar OReilly
Dmiller,
please check your private topics.
Radar
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oldiesman
As did TWI .... this is a good observation.
When I was involved, folks had a choice to stay only at the twig level, go to twig once a week, enjoy it, and live your life. Then there were folks who went further, went out WOW and Corps, presumably because of greater service to Christ. Those issues come back now to bite some because some see that as stealing from our lives, what otherwise would have been better. Don't know, I think each person has to answer that for themselves. But I do think God has honored / will honor our good works in the Lord.
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rascal
Hmmm and what will he do with our bad works in the lord?
The ugly destructive things that we did because twi told us that God required it?
Is he gonna honor them too, because we did it in his name?
Are the acts any less evil or the destruction any less damaging because we did it in God`s name?
Is our culpability any less because our *motives* were good?
No doubt that is how those some are able to sleep at night.
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oldiesman
I think all that depends on the mind set and intent of the person making the decision, whether good or evil. Both good and evil were manifest in twi, therefore both good and evil applies.
I think God and Jesus, who have perfect understanding, are the ultimate Judges of these matters, matters of the intent of the heart and soul of a man.
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rascal
So...the consequences of evil wrought .. is LESS evil depending on our mindset at the time?
Some how the damage isn`t as destructive nor does it hurt as bad because of the persons intent?
We shouldn`t be angry or hold the perpetrators responsible because God knows intent of their heart?
Whew...THAT makes me feel a lot better.
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Steve!
To quote Wordwolf, who was quoting someone else -
"I don't care if he was a plagiarist, molester, rapist,
conman and overall fraud,
HE TAUGHT ME THE WOOOORD...
I got mine-who cares if YOU suffer?"
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oldiesman
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Belle
Ummmm, OM, I don't know how to tell you this, but Paul repented. No one in TWI has repented or apologized, especially not your trusty ole slick vick. And Paul taught the word AFTER he repented. He changed. He then changed his life for the better and began helping others do the same. No comparison. Your analogy doesn't hold a single drop of water, or mint julep for that matter.
And, most people here would not take kindly to you comparing Paul with vic. I know I don't.
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Steve!
There's that really lame comparison to Paul.
Once again, here's why you can't do that.
Paul got born again and repented - that is, turned away - from his former actions. He stopped doing those things that were contrary to the wooooooord.
docvic(praise be his name) did not stop.
Sorry, bzzzzzzzt!, wrong response, but thank you for playing. Jane, give rainman his lovely parting gift.
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oldiesman
I'm wondering if Paul's repentence didn't matter to some of those who were grieving with the murders he was responsible for? Perhaps.
So then if VPW before his death publicly repented of his wrongdoing, you wouldn't even be here, right Steve?
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ahhhhhhhhhhh ha ha HA
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Steve!
It's still apples and oranges, rainman.
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oldiesman
Steve, what's with the namecalling?
I'm know you're intelligent enough to conduct a conversation without it.
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Steve!
Okay, om, I apologize. No more name calling.
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rascal
mindset is the key ... Have you a biblical reason to back that up oldies?
Had vp repented before he died...he would have apologised....he would have also warned us to remove those whom he taught the same vile practices from the spiritual head of our ministry.
As it was...they dragged twi the rest of the way down the toilet after his death.
Vp had it in his power to do amazing good in his life time....he chose instead to hurt
He had it within his power to enact great healing in the end....he chose not to...
Vp could have stopped the pain and destruction in the end by coming clean and warning us to remove lcm and the bot.....in his selfishness he refused.
He missed so many oportunities to attempt to repair the damage he wrought.....I don`t think much of his *intent* nor see how it mitigates his culpability.
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oldiesman
Well, I say that's God's call, not yours or mine.
Also, he may have confessed his sins before God on his deathbed, we just don't know.
We don't know that the destruction wouldn't have occurred anyway, and besides, you think VPW warning us to remove LCM and the BOT would have helped? HA. I think that would have been a circus.Link to comment
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rascal
Yup...I believe that if he had come clean...the whole ministry wouldn`t have been in the dark concerning the spiritual nature of our leadership....we would have understood what changes had to be enacted...could have demanded change...would not have been groping in the dark for solutions to the crisis.
He didn`t give a damn....and even his wifes words the day of his funeral condemns him
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Catcup
Quotes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm and what will he do with our bad works in the lord?
The ugly destructive things that we did because twi told us that God required it?
Is he gonna honor them too, because we did it in his name?
Are the acts any less evil or the destruction any less damaging because we did it in God`s name?
Is our culpability any less because our *motives* were good?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think all that depends on the mind set and intent of the person making the decision, whether good or evil. Both good and evil were manifest in twi, therefore both good and evil applies.
I think God and Jesus, who have perfect understanding, are the ultimate Judges of these matters, matters of the intent of the heart and soul of a man.
____________________________________
To quote another more famous, more humble, and more spiritual person,
"Not everyone who saith unto me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
And:
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Matthew 7: 21-23.
I don't have the privilege of sending anyone one place or the other. Nor would I want the responsibility.
I'm just tellin' ya what the man said.
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rascal
Wow ... I guess that cuts through the crap and says it all.
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Catcup
The Pharisees were not evil just to be evil. They believed in their hearts that they were actually doing God's will. Reference the fact that there had not been a prophet since the days of Malachi. They did as they were taught. They were sincere, disciplined, and dedicated to perform what they believed in their hearts was the will of God.
Not unlike a cornfield cult in New Knoxville, Ohio. An organization that if indeed God had sent prophets there, they were summarily chased out, dumped, and defamed.
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