CES did publicly denounce abortion in the early days. In fact, it was a pretty hot topic in the late 80's/early 90's. I remember having public discussions about it at the Chicago meetings. ;)-->
This is only my feeling, and could be wrong, but I think it may just be too hot an issue to touch among ex-Way people (as among others) for CES and others to make it a front burner issue. This was illustrated to me some time ago, when a poster was quick to describe abortion as murder when telling of TWI forcing someone to have an abortion, but then backing off when that idea clashed with the ideas of other ex-Way people.
True, forced abortion ( a la China) is something that the "pro-choice" and "pro-life" camps often agree as wrong, but it was that description of abortion as murder that brought the heat. (If someone forces you to murder someone else, it doesnt suddenly shrink from being murder if you decide to do it on your own).
If a group does not commit to a stance on abortion, does it mean that, that group is "pro choice"? Or, could it mean that, there members are split on the issue (like most of America), and don't want to take a side on this issue?
If a "religious group" take a strong "pro life" stance. How can they "minister" to a person who might have made the difficult choice to have an abortion? Should this person be "M&A"?
IMO, abortion should not be promoted and those who have an abortion should not be condemed or ridiculed.
Zshot said, " IMO, abortion should not be promoted and those who have an abortion should not be condemed or ridiculed."
You're right about abortion not being sold as a Biblical solution to an unwanted pregnancy under the guise of "it's not a human being until it takes its first breath." This is a teaching that doesn't hold water and it surprises me that the offshoots just pretend this subject doesn't exist instead of just saying that ole vp was wrong again.
No, I don't think ANYONE should influence a couple to make that decision and certainly not to condemn if they do.
My memories agree with what ex10 has posted here regarding CES's early questioning of Wierwille's teachings on abortion. I don't think CES has taken a high profile on the subject, but I am certain Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser have had to deal with the issue many times in their personal ministering. They don't promote abortion, but they also don't condemn those who were manipulated by TWI into making foolish decisions.
If any one desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works.
The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following.
Thou shalt love Him that created thee: thou shalt glorify Him that redeemed thee from death.
Thou shalt be simple in heart, and rich in spirit.
Thou shalt not join thyself to those who walk in the way of death.
Thou shalt hate doing what is unpleasing to God: thou shalt hate all hypocrisy.
Thou shalt not forsake the commandments of the Lord.
Thou shalt not exalt thyself, but shalt be of a lowly mind.
Thou shalt not take glory to thyself.
Thou shalt not take evil counsel against thy neighbour.
Thou shalt not allow over-boldness to enter into thy soul.
Thou shalt not commit fornication: thou shalt not commit adultery: thou shalt not be a corrupter of youth.
Thou shalt not let the word of God issue from thy lips with any kind of impurity.
Thou shalt not accept persons when thou reprovest any one for transgression.
Thou shalt be meek: thou shalt be peaceable.
Thou shalt tremble at the words which thou hearest.
Thou shalt not be mindful of evil against thy brother.
Thou shalt not be of doubtful mind as to whether a thing shall be or not.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain.
Thou shalt love thy neighbour more than thine own soul.
Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born.
Thou shalt not withdraw thy hand from thy son, or from thy daughter, but from their infancy thou shalt teach them the fear of the Lord.
Thou shalt not covet what is thy neighbour's, nor shalt thou be avaricious.
Thou shalt not be joined in soul with the haughty, but thou shalt be reckoned with the righteous and lowly.
Receive thou as good things the trials which come upon thee.
Thou shalt not be of double mind or of double tongue, for a double tongue is a snare of death.
Thou shalt be subject to the Lord, and to [other] masters as the image of God, with modesty and fear.
Thou shalt not issue orders with bitterness to thy maidservant or thy man-servant, who trust in the same [God ], lest thou shouldst not reverence that God who is above both; for He came to call men not according to their outward appearance, but according as the Spirit had prepared them.
Thou shalt communicate in all things with thy neighbour; thou shalt not call things thine own; for if ye are partakers in common of things which are incorruptible, how much more [should you be] of those things which are corruptible!
Thou shalt not be hasty with thy tongue, for the mouth is a snare of death.
As far as possible, thou shalt be pure in thy soul.
Do not be ready to stretch forth thy hands to take, whilst thou contractest them to give.
Thou shalt love, as the apple of thine eye, every one that speaketh to thee the word of the Lord.
Thou shalt remember the day of judgment, night and day.
Thou shalt seek out every day the faces of the saints, either by word examining them, and going to exhort them, and meditating how to save a soul by the word, or by thy hands thou shalt labour for the redemption of thy sins.
Thou shalt not hesitate to give, nor murmur when thou givest.
"Give to every one that asketh thee," and thou shalt know who is the good Recompenser of the reward.
Thou shalt preserve what thou hast received [in charge], neither adding to it nor taking from it.
To the last thou shalt hate the wicked [one].
Thou shalt judge righteously.
Thou shalt not make a schism, but thou shalt pacify those that contend by bringing them together.
Thou shalt confess thy sins.
Thou shalt not go to prayer with an evil conscience.
My memories agree with what ex10 has posted here regarding CES's early questioning of Wierwille's teachings on abortion. I don't think CES has taken a high profile on the subject, but I am certain Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser have had to deal with the issue many times in their personal ministering. They don't promote abortion, but they also don't condemn those who were manipulated by TWI into making foolish decisions.
Love,
Steve
The former remark ("they don't promote abortion") of course doesnt say anything about whether they believe abortion is right or wroing. Neither does the latter part, because all they would be saying is that foring someone to get an abortion is wrong, and that is something most people on both sides of the abortion issue can probably agree on.
Nothing wrong with these positions IMHO. Why should we make someone, or some group, declare their stance in black and white on abortion being right or wrong so we can judge their worth by their position? Unless we want to run a demolition derby using people instead of cars. (That means tearing each other apart for those who dont get my analogy).
My problem, as I noted earlier, is when I see abortion condemmed as killing babies if TWI forces someone to have an abortion, but somehow acceptable or too controversial to judge if someone has one voluntarily.
So not condemning people if they do have an abortion is not the same as a responsibility to correct wrong doctrine such as this if your ministry is truly Christian (is that what you were saying Lifted Up?)
To put it more clearly, I beleive the offshoots have a responsibility to teach that vp taught it his way and did not teach it the Biblical way. If your offshoot doesn't do this, I would suggest thinking about why they are covering up for him in this area.
Sounds to me like it's the same duck, with the same "quack" but now the duck just has a different name....
I remember "playing a game" with my unborn son when he was in the womb. I'd find where his arm or hand was and gently poke him. He'd shove me back with his little hand in return. He had a special way of doing it - palm or heel of his palm first - and shoving HARD! He still shoves me back using the same gesture he did when he was in-utro - only now he's 3 years old!
Now we're expecting our second child this winter - I can't wait to see what he or she is going to be like!
Whoever says they're not alive in the womb - until first "breath" - is dead themselves!
Having thought about how Wierwille dismissed unborn children it hits me just how wrong he was.
Unborn children are not vegetables, they react to stimuli and they do feel pain. Also they DO have breath life - they get the oxygen they need through the blood of their mothers. The fact that they are not breathing themselves is secondary.
I love this topic. I agree with you. I would love for this to be brought up with ex-way groups (the fact that this was just VP's opinion NOT a biblical doctrine.)
So not condemning people if they do have an abortion is not the same as a responsibility to correct wrong doctrine such as this if your ministry is truly Christian (is that what you were saying Lifted Up?)
I guess. Jesus neither condemned the woman caught in adultrey, nor refrained from noting it was wrong ("Go and sin no more").
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dmiller
DFMI -- Hmmmm. I don't think CES has (at least publically), and that is the only offshoot I am familiar with.
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ex10
dmiller
CES did publicly denounce abortion in the early days. In fact, it was a pretty hot topic in the late 80's/early 90's. I remember having public discussions about it at the Chicago meetings.
;)-->
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dmiller
Ex10 -- thanks.
:)-->
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dmiller
The only Chicago meeting I was at was in '85, or '86. Don't remember the exact year, and the only "hot" topic was twi, and not particular "issues".
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Don'tFenceMeIn
This is disappointing, I must say.
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Lifted Up
This is only my feeling, and could be wrong, but I think it may just be too hot an issue to touch among ex-Way people (as among others) for CES and others to make it a front burner issue. This was illustrated to me some time ago, when a poster was quick to describe abortion as murder when telling of TWI forcing someone to have an abortion, but then backing off when that idea clashed with the ideas of other ex-Way people.
True, forced abortion ( a la China) is something that the "pro-choice" and "pro-life" camps often agree as wrong, but it was that description of abortion as murder that brought the heat. (If someone forces you to murder someone else, it doesnt suddenly shrink from being murder if you decide to do it on your own).
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ex10
Lifted
It was a front burner issue for CES, that was covered, like right from the start.
;)-->
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Lifted Up
Yes, I saw your earlier post. But has the front burner been turned off?
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Don'tFenceMeIn
How about CFF or Vince Finnegan's group? What are their views?
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Zshot
Let me ask a question?
If a group does not commit to a stance on abortion, does it mean that, that group is "pro choice"? Or, could it mean that, there members are split on the issue (like most of America), and don't want to take a side on this issue?
If a "religious group" take a strong "pro life" stance. How can they "minister" to a person who might have made the difficult choice to have an abortion? Should this person be "M&A"?
IMO, abortion should not be promoted and those who have an abortion should not be condemed or ridiculed.
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Don'tFenceMeIn
Zshot said, " IMO, abortion should not be promoted and those who have an abortion should not be condemed or ridiculed."
You're right about abortion not being sold as a Biblical solution to an unwanted pregnancy under the guise of "it's not a human being until it takes its first breath." This is a teaching that doesn't hold water and it surprises me that the offshoots just pretend this subject doesn't exist instead of just saying that ole vp was wrong again.
No, I don't think ANYONE should influence a couple to make that decision and certainly not to condemn if they do.
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Steve Lortz
My memories agree with what ex10 has posted here regarding CES's early questioning of Wierwille's teachings on abortion. I don't think CES has taken a high profile on the subject, but I am certain Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser have had to deal with the issue many times in their personal ministering. They don't promote abortion, but they also don't condemn those who were manipulated by TWI into making foolish decisions.
Love,
Steve
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year2027
God first
Hi all
I do not know about offshoots
but here a book that talks about it
The Epistle of Barnabas
Chapter 19.
-------------------------------------------
The Way of Light.
The way of light, then, is as follows.
If any one desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works.
The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following.
Thou shalt love Him that created thee: thou shalt glorify Him that redeemed thee from death.
Thou shalt be simple in heart, and rich in spirit.
Thou shalt not join thyself to those who walk in the way of death.
Thou shalt hate doing what is unpleasing to God: thou shalt hate all hypocrisy.
Thou shalt not forsake the commandments of the Lord.
Thou shalt not exalt thyself, but shalt be of a lowly mind.
Thou shalt not take glory to thyself.
Thou shalt not take evil counsel against thy neighbour.
Thou shalt not allow over-boldness to enter into thy soul.
Thou shalt not commit fornication: thou shalt not commit adultery: thou shalt not be a corrupter of youth.
Thou shalt not let the word of God issue from thy lips with any kind of impurity.
Thou shalt not accept persons when thou reprovest any one for transgression.
Thou shalt be meek: thou shalt be peaceable.
Thou shalt tremble at the words which thou hearest.
Thou shalt not be mindful of evil against thy brother.
Thou shalt not be of doubtful mind as to whether a thing shall be or not.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain.
Thou shalt love thy neighbour more than thine own soul.
Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born.
Thou shalt not withdraw thy hand from thy son, or from thy daughter, but from their infancy thou shalt teach them the fear of the Lord.
Thou shalt not covet what is thy neighbour's, nor shalt thou be avaricious.
Thou shalt not be joined in soul with the haughty, but thou shalt be reckoned with the righteous and lowly.
Receive thou as good things the trials which come upon thee.
Thou shalt not be of double mind or of double tongue, for a double tongue is a snare of death.
Thou shalt be subject to the Lord, and to [other] masters as the image of God, with modesty and fear.
Thou shalt not issue orders with bitterness to thy maidservant or thy man-servant, who trust in the same [God ], lest thou shouldst not reverence that God who is above both; for He came to call men not according to their outward appearance, but according as the Spirit had prepared them.
Thou shalt communicate in all things with thy neighbour; thou shalt not call things thine own; for if ye are partakers in common of things which are incorruptible, how much more [should you be] of those things which are corruptible!
Thou shalt not be hasty with thy tongue, for the mouth is a snare of death.
As far as possible, thou shalt be pure in thy soul.
Do not be ready to stretch forth thy hands to take, whilst thou contractest them to give.
Thou shalt love, as the apple of thine eye, every one that speaketh to thee the word of the Lord.
Thou shalt remember the day of judgment, night and day.
Thou shalt seek out every day the faces of the saints, either by word examining them, and going to exhort them, and meditating how to save a soul by the word, or by thy hands thou shalt labour for the redemption of thy sins.
Thou shalt not hesitate to give, nor murmur when thou givest.
"Give to every one that asketh thee," and thou shalt know who is the good Recompenser of the reward.
Thou shalt preserve what thou hast received [in charge], neither adding to it nor taking from it.
To the last thou shalt hate the wicked [one].
Thou shalt judge righteously.
Thou shalt not make a schism, but thou shalt pacify those that contend by bringing them together.
Thou shalt confess thy sins.
Thou shalt not go to prayer with an evil conscience.
This is the way of light.
------------------------------------------
with love Roy
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Lifted Up
The former remark ("they don't promote abortion") of course doesnt say anything about whether they believe abortion is right or wroing. Neither does the latter part, because all they would be saying is that foring someone to get an abortion is wrong, and that is something most people on both sides of the abortion issue can probably agree on.
Nothing wrong with these positions IMHO. Why should we make someone, or some group, declare their stance in black and white on abortion being right or wrong so we can judge their worth by their position? Unless we want to run a demolition derby using people instead of cars. (That means tearing each other apart for those who dont get my analogy).
My problem, as I noted earlier, is when I see abortion condemmed as killing babies if TWI forces someone to have an abortion, but somehow acceptable or too controversial to judge if someone has one voluntarily.
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Don'tFenceMeIn
So not condemning people if they do have an abortion is not the same as a responsibility to correct wrong doctrine such as this if your ministry is truly Christian (is that what you were saying Lifted Up?)
To put it more clearly, I beleive the offshoots have a responsibility to teach that vp taught it his way and did not teach it the Biblical way. If your offshoot doesn't do this, I would suggest thinking about why they are covering up for him in this area.
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ChasUFarley
Sounds to me like it's the same duck, with the same "quack" but now the duck just has a different name....
I remember "playing a game" with my unborn son when he was in the womb. I'd find where his arm or hand was and gently poke him. He'd shove me back with his little hand in return. He had a special way of doing it - palm or heel of his palm first - and shoving HARD! He still shoves me back using the same gesture he did when he was in-utro - only now he's 3 years old!
Now we're expecting our second child this winter - I can't wait to see what he or she is going to be like!
Whoever says they're not alive in the womb - until first "breath" - is dead themselves!
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Trefor Heywood
Having thought about how Wierwille dismissed unborn children it hits me just how wrong he was.
Unborn children are not vegetables, they react to stimuli and they do feel pain. Also they DO have breath life - they get the oxygen they need through the blood of their mothers. The fact that they are not breathing themselves is secondary.
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gladtobeout
Don't Fence Me In
I love this topic. I agree with you. I would love for this to be brought up with ex-way groups (the fact that this was just VP's opinion NOT a biblical doctrine.)
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Danny
Most of what vp spoke was not biblical.
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Lifted Up
I guess. Jesus neither condemned the woman caught in adultrey, nor refrained from noting it was wrong ("Go and sin no more").
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