I think that making the trinity a big issue can be yet one more barrier that seperates us fro our bretheren....I think that when we have these walls of mistrust and judgement between us, we are unable to enjoy the benefets of interaction with an awfully large segment of the body of Christ.
One interesting aspect of this, though, is to bring up the other side of the coin. Perhaps the Trinity is something we can discuss, even personally believing the issue is important, without being a judge of how someone else who doesnt believe as we do stands with God. But, can we go into any church where the trinity is accepted doctrine and have such a discussion without being judged? Or can we have such a discussion at all?
Well said, rascal! It truly is healing to realize that it is possible to meet, eat, and fellowship together with some genuine folks who simply just want to live and love for God. We all can find things to discuss that we all embrace dearly and trying to be a "mister-know-it-all" spiritual giant just causes division, makes the spritual giant appear as prideful, arrogant, and someone to avoid. Of course, we could put on our tuxes and tophats and lift our heads up and throw our shoulders back and bellow "LOOK OUT!!! Here comes a son of god with all power. "Boy, oh, boy, that just thrills my soul, peepul.
quote:Originally posted by rascal:
Our karate class held bible study once a week...now mind you, we have people from every denomination and belief system imaginable....It was amazing how we were able to learn from each other....simply because we had already developed a respect for one anothers strengths and abilities.
It was amazing how we were able to apreciate each others unique perspectives....9 times out of ten....our perspectives dovetailed enriching each others understanding...and it never failed that we came away with a greater apreciation for the scriptures studied.
Never once did it degenerate into a battle over doctrines....it didn`t need to, there are far to many meaningfull things to study and enrich our lives with.
We are not nearly so different as we were led to believe.
Lifted up, let me know if you want to borrow my stun gun that we used in twig when someone dared to interrupt the teaching or was falling asleep. That worked pretty could for our motely crew did it not?
Thanks blue sunday....it was a very enjoyable and healing time for me...one of those special blessings.
Lifted, I have had absolutely no trouble discussing this issue not only in our karate study group....but in either the methodist church we attended...the baptist church that my children participated in awanas in...the non denominational church I was with for a while....or our homeschool bible study groups through the years....
When people are walking with the love of God...when we treat each other with the respect due a neighbor......there just isn`t ever a big enough issue to treat each other ugly over....
We may not agree...but we all realise that we are on our own growth track and time table with God...each path traveled is different...we are all at a different place in our journey... we know that we will all arrive eventually at our destination...we might as well enjoy our trip...and be an asset to each other whether we agree or not....
I think it is the thing that mature christians do.
I have yet to see a single instance since leaving twi of seeing a scripturally ignorant christian ... trinitarian or not...in one of these Oh to be despised churches cause the wholesale carnage and damage our twi people did... in SPITE of supposing to be more spiritual because of our great biblical knowledge....
I don`t figure we have ANY business thinking that we are more spiritually fit...or have an inside track to God.
quote:We may not agree...but we all realise that we are on our own growth track and time table with God...each path traveled is different...
Rascal, and I would imagine no FEAR associated with trying to keep others in line and trying to control what they think or say to the group--with that missing, it has been my experience that Christians do tend to treat each other with respect.
quote:I have yet to see a single instance since leaving twi of seeing a scripturally ignorant christian ... trinitarian or not...in one of these Oh to be despised churches cause the wholesale carnage and damage our twi people did... in SPITE of supposing to be more spiritual because of our great biblical knowledge....
Pedophile priests come to mind, that may refute the above statement ...
I was discussing my experiences with christians outside of twi oldies.
Of course what has happened with the priests is as spiritually dark andevery bit as horrible as what has been endured in twi....and your point is? it changes the evil endulged how?
Only difference betweeen them n us is that in twi ... the rampant sexual abuse in some states happened to BOTH boys and girls.
It is not the norm however, nor does it negate my point.
Our feelings of spiritual superiority because of our biblical knowledge meant zero when it came to living in spiritual darkness.
I am saying that doctrinal beliefs will not decide who is spiritual...who is working on God`s behalf.
Our believing in no trinity ... nor our oh so superior spiritual maturity as workmen of the word did not prevent great evil from being practiced in twi....
In MY experience those christiaans that I have met trinity or non...those who do not have our oh so superior knowledge of the word like it hasn`t been known since the first century...and biblical research capabilities have had no problem not endulging in the evil behavior and imoral practices that we did.
We have no business feeling smug and superior...believing that we are any better or more enlightened than others who believe different doctrine...just look at where our arrogance took us.
We are still blind and arrogant if we believe that our spirituality or doctrinal recipe makes us feel like we can look down our noses at ANY other belief system.
You name the worse that you can find practiced in other religions... christian and non...and I don`t think you will find anything less heinous practiced in twi.
We got no business thinking we are too good to fellowship with trinitarian believing bretheren.
We are either men of the flesh or men of the spirit....in order to decide which just read galations and tally the attributes to decide....I`d say that being a pfal grad with all its great knowledge didn`t prevent us from falling into the pitfalls and becoming men of the flesh....so a fat lot of good it did.
quote:We are either men of the flesh or men of the spirit....in order to decide which just read galations and tally the attributes to decide....
It's difficult for me to decide, because I think we all have some of those attributes at one time or another. Nobody's perfect. All of us have some of those godly spirit attributes at one time or another, as well.
Being a PFAL grad for me, did a whole lot of good.
oldies...then at one time or another folks are behaving as men of the flesh.....most don`t raise it to an art form like vp and his hand picked leaders did.
frankly I have had no problem with the majority of the attributes of a man of the flesh...they have no apeal to me....it`s not a temptation.....adultry is not a problem...lasiviousness......no way...lying...nope.... ...drunkeness...nope .....idolotry...not an issue.....hatrid...unhuh...wrath...strife...heresies..fornication.....nope.
For a true man of the spirit...it is an inside job....you can`t fake it ...and these things won`t hold appeal.
You do a diservice to practicing men of the spirit everywhere to indicate that such behavior is inevidable....it isn`t when trhe spirit is real...
You will find yourself manifesting the attributes of a man of the spirit without even thinking about it as well...it is what you are...not something you try to be....that is the difference between the genuine and the counterfet..
God has shown us.....feel free to find reasons not to accept it. and explain why we don`t have to do what it says.....twi taught us well. away....
I think our knowledge of the scripture caused us to be arrogant and assumed that this mastery of knowledge in and of itself would make us spiritual and Godly.......nope.
As far as pfal not being bad...I`d say that the knowledge aquired was instrumental in the building of our arrogance in our own works assuming that they would ensure our spirituality....I`d say it was detrimental.
Maybe our repugnance at the thought of interaction with others who`s beliefs don`t line up with our *truth* is responsible for our not seeing many genuine spiritual men.
Consider maybe that is why you aren`t seeing real men of the spirit....you are still hanging around folks that are justifying the actions and indulgances of men of the flesh...and justifying their short comings ...mislabeling them as spiritual guys who make mistakes...maybe you do not want to have to face the fact your own lack of attributes of a man of the spirit convicts you....maybe you don`t want to have to recognise the need for change.
Twi was great in helping us hide our true spiritual natures and justify the darkness we entertained.
It does you nor them any good because one may never enjoy the genuine spirit filled presence of God if you are making excuses for why the behaviors of a man of the flesh are acceptable.
quote:God has shown us.....feel free to find reasons not to accept it. and explain why we don`t have to do what it says.....twi taught us well. .... maybe you do not want to have to face the fact your own lack of attributes of a man of the spirit convicts you....maybe you don`t want to have to recognise the need for change.
yada yada yada. But what I don't understand is, since you know so much about this topic, why don't YOU do what it says? It talks about putting away wrath, strife, hatred, bitterness, evil speakings....then it says to put on love, peace, gentleness, goodness, meekness, all fruit of the spirit.
Ya see, you're all about Wierwille hatred and bashing and your superior knowledge of his shortcomings. Both barrels blazing, unrelenting, in-your-face wrath. But I don't really need or want to be lectured by folks like you who give lip service to bible verses you like, but don't really act accordingly on those you think don't apply to you. You're so busy pointing fingers, but try examining your posts for a change.
Yes, Wierwille exhibited qualities a man of the flesh; and you are a woman of the spirit? I can't glean that from your unrelenting hatred and judgments.
For you to accuse me of these things is ludicrous oldies....you mislabel my outrage over the mistreatment of our dear brothers and sisters..my anger over the spiritual deceptions perpetrated on vulnerable people...anger over what was done in Gods name....as wrath ....you have mislabeled my absolute disgust with a wolf and viscious predator that used his status as a minister to disarm and and destroy so many who looked to him to teach him of God....as hate...my total lack of respect for this criminal and what he stole in God`s name as wrong.
You label my rebuttles of your attempts to portray wierwille as something he wasn`t as unrelenting attacks...
Mislabeling me, my motives and my attributes will not make the stench of wierwilles legacy any more bearable....nor will attacking me, pointing your finger at my percieved shortcomings will not...cannot change wierwilles sin nature as a man of the flesh....regardless of my spirituality one way or another...
I am not suprised that you cannot discern my spiritual nature since you are unable to recognise the nature of the man of the flesh who`s actions and nature you would white wash in order to make him appear as something he was not.
I suggest that there is a reaason for your lack of clear perception and discernment abilities...
Thanks Steve, I am not concerned with oldies opinion of me....as IF my spiritual nature one way or another has any bearings on the blackness of wierwilles crimes....
The thing that bugs me is when sometimes a very good message gets lost because of the personal attacks....
So back to topic....I wonder if.... in being taught to loath churches and other christians we were subtely led away from possibly seeing true men and women of the spirit in action....possibly we might end up being able to recognise the counterfit.
I mean after all if the only ministers you are learning from...are men of the flesh masquerading (maybe even unbeknownst to themselves) as men of God....these shortcomings will seem normal and acceptable.
It doesn`t dawn on us to be outraged.
The question we have to ask ourselves is are we still indulging in our former arrogance in avoiding other christians deeming them unworthey of our respect and attention by pasting labels like trinitarian...methodist mormon...baptist....thus safely in our minds negating any value to their insight or pov.
quote: But what I don't understand is, since you know so much about this topic, why don't YOU do what it says? It talks about putting away wrath, strife, hatred, bitterness, evil speakings....then it says to put on love, peace, gentleness, goodness, meekness, all fruit of the spirit. Ya see, you're all about Wierwille hatred and bashing and your superior knowledge of his shortcomings. Both barrels blazing, unrelenting, in-your-face wrath. But I don't really need or want to be lectured by folks like you who give lip service to bible verses you like, but don't really act accordingly on those you think don't apply to you. You're so busy pointing fingers, but try examining your posts for a change.
Yes, Wierwille exhibited qualities a man of the flesh; and you are a woman of the spirit? I can't glean that from your unrelenting hatred and judgments.
and so forth and so on, ad nauseum. :o-->
Oldies, your excuses like this are dishonest and manipulative on their face. I keep reading your excuses for/whitewashing of VP (yes they are, dude), and it basically uses the verses that you bring up in a dishonest manner. The reason they are dishonest is that they are trying to portray honest complaints/forwarning to others about VPW's abuses as violations of those verses. They are not. Hate filled? So hate is the prime motivator behind those who have had first hand knowledge of what abusive preachers and ministers in TWI did, and are trying to let people know about it? If that's the case, Jesus Christ himself would fail your test *miserably*, for look at the negatives that he taught about the Pharisees. Or when Paul the Apostle did the same thing.
Oh, but she keeps on and on and on, thus seeming to look like she is **obsessed** with this guy Weirwille. ... Ahh not quite. You see, there are continuously new people coming to this board, both recent evacuees/evictees from TWI, and of folks who never heard of the group. So, uhh, Rascal should now say "Sorry folks, but my Oldies-given quota for complaining about VPW is now all used up. Since I don't want to appear like I'm *hateful*, and *vindictive*, I can't say anything more against Weirwille."
Oh yeah, Right! (Oh by the way, I don't hear YOU limiting yourself likewise in the complaints about Trinitarians and their doctrine. I mean, come on man! Where is your Love of God in Renewed Mind in Infestatio--uhh I mean, Manifestation in the Household? -->)
Sorry guy, but something tells me that it isn't just an issue of so-called 'hateful and rage-filled' ranting on her part that you are s-o-o-o concerned with, but that it regards a specific target of that ranting, ... Victor Paul Weirwille, that gets your panties in a knot.
Wierwille's dead. His reputation is dirt, fit to be trod under the foot of men. His organization is dead in the water, and waiting for someone to pull the plug on life support. ..... You might want to seriously think about getting yourself another, more meaningful hobby. ...
Lifted up, let me know if you want to borrow my stun gun that we used in twig when someone dared to interrupt the teaching or was falling asleep. That worked pretty could for our motely crew did it not?
bluesunday
THERE you are!!! I was wondering where you've been. I don't remember the stun gun, unless THAT's what you used as the evil one. Or else, you never had to use it on me.
Actually, I am still interested in hearing more details about your time in after I took your spot in that apartment. Our experiences were of course different. I have always been interested in hearing more from those who went through some of the things I didnt, ever since I came on the Waydale scene back in early 2000, and I havent always met with success in my searches. Getting it from someone I knew gives me a valuable perspective.
Slight non relevence here. But as I hinted earlier, I am just trying to avoid getting smacked by both sides. details always available via e-mail.
quote:You label my rebuttles of your attempts to portray wierwille as something he wasn`t as unrelenting attacks... I am not suprised that you cannot discern my spiritual nature since you are unable to recognise the nature of the man of the flesh who`s actions and nature you would white wash in order to make him appear as something he was not.
The bible speaks of putting away lying, have you tried that verse when you finish reading Galatians? I never label Wierwille anything other than what he did, both good and bad. I never suggested he be exonerated for his sins. But it is YOU who don't care to confirm the facts that he did some good, taught the bible, and then your corrupted mind continues on with the garbage and labels folks like me, who appreciate the good that he did, as evil, or misrepresenting what happened. I'm not misrepresenting anything. Rather, it is you who has surmised evil, and continue to speak evil of good.
This is why you are no authority on Galatians, because you do those same things he says not to do. The pot calling the kettle black.
Wierwille was a man born again of God's spirit, that's what I believe. If all you do is focus on his sinful nature, your mind is corrupt and you engage in corrupt communication and evil surmisings, and that's all you're about if that's what you choose to do.
quote:Oldies, your excuses like this are dishonest and manipulative on their face. I keep reading your excuses for/whitewashing of VP (yes they are, dude), and it basically uses the verses that you bring up in a dishonest manner.
I don't think so Garth. You are engaging in dishonesty and lying when you falsely accuse me of whitewashing. Just because I want to express my opinions about some of the good that Wierwille accomplished, you call it whitewashing. Too bad if you don't like what I experienced and it nauseates you. But I think it's you, and folks like you who, knowing full well, decide to sweep under the rug Wierwille's good works. He was a complex man, certainly a doer of both good and evil works. Focusing on the evil only, and making a conclusion that he was nothing more than a man of the flesh, and that's it, is being dishonest and corrupt. You can't erase his accomplishments as much as you like to do. His legacy is tarnished because of his sins ... but I'm not going to renounce that he taught me the bible. And you can't stand that he taught God's word and folks appreciated it, and still do? The man is dead, and still he's doing more thru his books even today then you're doing, condemning and complaining about his shortcomings and not much else.
quote:Wierwille's dead. His reputation is dirt, fit to be trod under the foot of men. His organization is dead in the water, and waiting for someone to pull the plug on life support. .....
Garth, I really beg to differ with you. To most ex way folks, I think Wierwille's reputation is mixed. A doer of both good and evil. His organization is still around, and can make a comeback. The offshoots are still around. These groups, to the extent that they teach God's word, are doing a worthwhile service. What are you doing, other than criticizing and complaining and condemning how dead these folks are? What makes you so lively and bright, and someone to be listened to?
I have never lied about ANYTHING that I have posted here......there is no need, as it was plenty horrible without embellishment.
Every single thing that I have posted oconcerning the abuses suffered have all been verified by other posters or backed up with similar accounts. I defy you to point out a single instance of my being dishonest.
Again I say ... MY spirituality or lack there of has no bearing whatsoever on the blackness of vpw`s sins.
Galations and it`s standard for the man of the spirit stand regardless of my spirituality and lack there off...lol
Seriously, I have no respect for the opinion of one who`s only problem with twi is that it hit him in the pocket book.
To hell with our brothers and sisters who suffered and died....to hell with the families destroyed....the children forever lost through our participation in twi....it simply sucked because oldies didn`t like to tithe.
Your attacks on the innocent and to blacken their names and veracity to hide the guilt of your disgraced minister and the injustices endured directly at his hands is reprehensible.
Please cease your personal attacks and limit your comments to the information being dicsussed on the thread topic.
Now...back to why we think trinitarian believing christians are so bad....Do you have an opinion one way or another oldies or are you just here to obscure my point of view by burying it under personal assaults on my moral character, spirituality, and veracity?
Personally, OM, you're always so available here to defend docvic...seems to me you must be independently wealthy to have so much time to post...possibly why you seem so detached from reality.
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WhiteDove
Oh Rascal not another work/study program NOOOOOO thanks!!! Been there done that, Well maybe, Will I get a T-shirt?
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Lifted Up
One interesting aspect of this, though, is to bring up the other side of the coin. Perhaps the Trinity is something we can discuss, even personally believing the issue is important, without being a judge of how someone else who doesnt believe as we do stands with God. But, can we go into any church where the trinity is accepted doctrine and have such a discussion without being judged? Or can we have such a discussion at all?
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Lifted Up
I guess I missed Oldies' comments just a few posts ago...about it "going both ways".
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bluesunday
Well said, rascal! It truly is healing to realize that it is possible to meet, eat, and fellowship together with some genuine folks who simply just want to live and love for God. We all can find things to discuss that we all embrace dearly and trying to be a "mister-know-it-all" spiritual giant just causes division, makes the spritual giant appear as prideful, arrogant, and someone to avoid. Of course, we could put on our tuxes and tophats and lift our heads up and throw our shoulders back and bellow "LOOK OUT!!! Here comes a son of god with all power. "Boy, oh, boy, that just thrills my soul, peepul.
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bluesunday
Lifted up, let me know if you want to borrow my stun gun that we used in twig when someone dared to interrupt the teaching or was falling asleep. That worked pretty could for our motely crew did it not?
bluesunday
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rascal
Thanks blue sunday....it was a very enjoyable and healing time for me...one of those special blessings.
Lifted, I have had absolutely no trouble discussing this issue not only in our karate study group....but in either the methodist church we attended...the baptist church that my children participated in awanas in...the non denominational church I was with for a while....or our homeschool bible study groups through the years....
When people are walking with the love of God...when we treat each other with the respect due a neighbor......there just isn`t ever a big enough issue to treat each other ugly over....
We may not agree...but we all realise that we are on our own growth track and time table with God...each path traveled is different...we are all at a different place in our journey... we know that we will all arrive eventually at our destination...we might as well enjoy our trip...and be an asset to each other whether we agree or not....
I think it is the thing that mature christians do.
I have yet to see a single instance since leaving twi of seeing a scripturally ignorant christian ... trinitarian or not...in one of these Oh to be despised churches cause the wholesale carnage and damage our twi people did... in SPITE of supposing to be more spiritual because of our great biblical knowledge....
I don`t figure we have ANY business thinking that we are more spiritually fit...or have an inside track to God.
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waterbuffalo
Rascal, and I would imagine no FEAR associated with trying to keep others in line and trying to control what they think or say to the group--with that missing, it has been my experience that Christians do tend to treat each other with respect.
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oldiesman
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rascal
I was discussing my experiences with christians outside of twi oldies.
Of course what has happened with the priests is as spiritually dark andevery bit as horrible as what has been endured in twi....and your point is? it changes the evil endulged how?
Only difference betweeen them n us is that in twi ... the rampant sexual abuse in some states happened to BOTH boys and girls.
It is not the norm however, nor does it negate my point.
Our feelings of spiritual superiority because of our biblical knowledge meant zero when it came to living in spiritual darkness.
I am saying that doctrinal beliefs will not decide who is spiritual...who is working on God`s behalf.
Our believing in no trinity ... nor our oh so superior spiritual maturity as workmen of the word did not prevent great evil from being practiced in twi....
In MY experience those christiaans that I have met trinity or non...those who do not have our oh so superior knowledge of the word like it hasn`t been known since the first century...and biblical research capabilities have had no problem not endulging in the evil behavior and imoral practices that we did.
We have no business feeling smug and superior...believing that we are any better or more enlightened than others who believe different doctrine...just look at where our arrogance took us.
We are still blind and arrogant if we believe that our spirituality or doctrinal recipe makes us feel like we can look down our noses at ANY other belief system.
You name the worse that you can find practiced in other religions... christian and non...and I don`t think you will find anything less heinous practiced in twi.
We got no business thinking we are too good to fellowship with trinitarian believing bretheren.
We are either men of the flesh or men of the spirit....in order to decide which just read galations and tally the attributes to decide....I`d say that being a pfal grad with all its great knowledge didn`t prevent us from falling into the pitfalls and becoming men of the flesh....so a fat lot of good it did.
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oldiesman
Being a PFAL grad for me, did a whole lot of good.
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rascal
oldies...then at one time or another folks are behaving as men of the flesh.....most don`t raise it to an art form like vp and his hand picked leaders did.
frankly I have had no problem with the majority of the attributes of a man of the flesh...they have no apeal to me....it`s not a temptation.....adultry is not a problem...lasiviousness......no way...lying...nope.... ...drunkeness...nope .....idolotry...not an issue.....hatrid...unhuh...wrath...strife...heresies..fornication.....nope.
For a true man of the spirit...it is an inside job....you can`t fake it ...and these things won`t hold appeal.
You do a diservice to practicing men of the spirit everywhere to indicate that such behavior is inevidable....it isn`t when trhe spirit is real...
You will find yourself manifesting the attributes of a man of the spirit without even thinking about it as well...it is what you are...not something you try to be....that is the difference between the genuine and the counterfet..
God has shown us.....feel free to find reasons not to accept it. and explain why we don`t have to do what it says.....twi taught us well. away....
I think our knowledge of the scripture caused us to be arrogant and assumed that this mastery of knowledge in and of itself would make us spiritual and Godly.......nope.
As far as pfal not being bad...I`d say that the knowledge aquired was instrumental in the building of our arrogance in our own works assuming that they would ensure our spirituality....I`d say it was detrimental.
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rascal
Maybe our repugnance at the thought of interaction with others who`s beliefs don`t line up with our *truth* is responsible for our not seeing many genuine spiritual men.
Consider maybe that is why you aren`t seeing real men of the spirit....you are still hanging around folks that are justifying the actions and indulgances of men of the flesh...and justifying their short comings ...mislabeling them as spiritual guys who make mistakes...maybe you do not want to have to face the fact your own lack of attributes of a man of the spirit convicts you....maybe you don`t want to have to recognise the need for change.
Twi was great in helping us hide our true spiritual natures and justify the darkness we entertained.
It does you nor them any good because one may never enjoy the genuine spirit filled presence of God if you are making excuses for why the behaviors of a man of the flesh are acceptable.
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oldiesman
Ya see, you're all about Wierwille hatred and bashing and your superior knowledge of his shortcomings. Both barrels blazing, unrelenting, in-your-face wrath. But I don't really need or want to be lectured by folks like you who give lip service to bible verses you like, but don't really act accordingly on those you think don't apply to you. You're so busy pointing fingers, but try examining your posts for a change.
Yes, Wierwille exhibited qualities a man of the flesh; and you are a woman of the spirit? I can't glean that from your unrelenting hatred and judgments.
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rascal
For you to accuse me of these things is ludicrous oldies....you mislabel my outrage over the mistreatment of our dear brothers and sisters..my anger over the spiritual deceptions perpetrated on vulnerable people...anger over what was done in Gods name....as wrath ....you have mislabeled my absolute disgust with a wolf and viscious predator that used his status as a minister to disarm and and destroy so many who looked to him to teach him of God....as hate...my total lack of respect for this criminal and what he stole in God`s name as wrong.
You label my rebuttles of your attempts to portray wierwille as something he wasn`t as unrelenting attacks...
Mislabeling me, my motives and my attributes will not make the stench of wierwilles legacy any more bearable....nor will attacking me, pointing your finger at my percieved shortcomings will not...cannot change wierwilles sin nature as a man of the flesh....regardless of my spirituality one way or another...
I am not suprised that you cannot discern my spiritual nature since you are unable to recognise the nature of the man of the flesh who`s actions and nature you would white wash in order to make him appear as something he was not.
I suggest that there is a reaason for your lack of clear perception and discernment abilities...
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Steve!
rascal -
Don't let rainman get to you. he just tends to get upset when anyone in any way maligns his hero, docvic(praise be his name).
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rascal
Thanks Steve, I am not concerned with oldies opinion of me....as IF my spiritual nature one way or another has any bearings on the blackness of wierwilles crimes....
The thing that bugs me is when sometimes a very good message gets lost because of the personal attacks....
So back to topic....I wonder if.... in being taught to loath churches and other christians we were subtely led away from possibly seeing true men and women of the spirit in action....possibly we might end up being able to recognise the counterfit.
I mean after all if the only ministers you are learning from...are men of the flesh masquerading (maybe even unbeknownst to themselves) as men of God....these shortcomings will seem normal and acceptable.
It doesn`t dawn on us to be outraged.
The question we have to ask ourselves is are we still indulging in our former arrogance in avoiding other christians deeming them unworthey of our respect and attention by pasting labels like trinitarian...methodist mormon...baptist....thus safely in our minds negating any value to their insight or pov.
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GarthP2000
Oldies,
and so forth and so on, ad nauseum.
:o-->
Oldies, your excuses like this are dishonest and manipulative on their face. I keep reading your excuses for/whitewashing of VP (yes they are, dude), and it basically uses the verses that you bring up in a dishonest manner. The reason they are dishonest is that they are trying to portray honest complaints/forwarning to others about VPW's abuses as violations of those verses. They are not. Hate filled? So hate is the prime motivator behind those who have had first hand knowledge of what abusive preachers and ministers in TWI did, and are trying to let people know about it? If that's the case, Jesus Christ himself would fail your test *miserably*, for look at the negatives that he taught about the Pharisees.
Or when Paul the Apostle did the same thing.
Oh, but she keeps on and on and on, thus seeming to look like she is **obsessed** with this guy Weirwille. ... Ahh not quite. You see, there are continuously new people coming to this board, both recent evacuees/evictees from TWI, and of folks who never heard of the group. So, uhh, Rascal should now say "Sorry folks, but my Oldies-given quota for complaining about VPW is now all used up. Since I don't want to appear like I'm *hateful*, and *vindictive*, I can't say anything more against Weirwille."
Oh yeah, Right! (Oh by the way, I don't hear YOU limiting yourself likewise in the complaints about Trinitarians and their doctrine. I mean, come on man! Where is your Love of God in Renewed Mind in Infestatio--uhh I mean, Manifestation in the Household?
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Sorry guy, but something tells me that it isn't just an issue of so-called 'hateful and rage-filled' ranting on her part that you are s-o-o-o concerned with, but that it regards a specific target of that ranting, ... Victor Paul Weirwille, that gets your panties in a knot.
Wierwille's dead. His reputation is dirt, fit to be trod under the foot of men. His organization is dead in the water, and waiting for someone to pull the plug on life support. ..... You might want to seriously think about getting yourself another, more meaningful hobby. ...
... like collecting lint from pants pockets.
P.S., sorry for the derail, Rascal. Carry on.
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Lifted Up
THERE you are!!! I was wondering where you've been. I don't remember the stun gun, unless THAT's what you used as the evil one. Or else, you never had to use it on me.
Actually, I am still interested in hearing more details about your time in after I took your spot in that apartment. Our experiences were of course different. I have always been interested in hearing more from those who went through some of the things I didnt, ever since I came on the Waydale scene back in early 2000, and I havent always met with success in my searches. Getting it from someone I knew gives me a valuable perspective.
Slight non relevence here. But as I hinted earlier, I am just trying to avoid getting smacked by both sides. details always available via e-mail.
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oldiesman
Rascal:
The bible speaks of putting away lying, have you tried that verse when you finish reading Galatians? I never label Wierwille anything other than what he did, both good and bad. I never suggested he be exonerated for his sins. But it is YOU who don't care to confirm the facts that he did some good, taught the bible, and then your corrupted mind continues on with the garbage and labels folks like me, who appreciate the good that he did, as evil, or misrepresenting what happened. I'm not misrepresenting anything. Rather, it is you who has surmised evil, and continue to speak evil of good.This is why you are no authority on Galatians, because you do those same things he says not to do. The pot calling the kettle black.
Wierwille was a man born again of God's spirit, that's what I believe. If all you do is focus on his sinful nature, your mind is corrupt and you engage in corrupt communication and evil surmisings, and that's all you're about if that's what you choose to do.
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Don'tFenceMeIn
He did have some power or we wouldn't have all been deceived by him.
But which generator he was hooked up to for his power source would be the real question in my mind.
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oldiesman
Garth:
I don't think so Garth. You are engaging in dishonesty and lying when you falsely accuse me of whitewashing. Just because I want to express my opinions about some of the good that Wierwille accomplished, you call it whitewashing. Too bad if you don't like what I experienced and it nauseates you. But I think it's you, and folks like you who, knowing full well, decide to sweep under the rug Wierwille's good works. He was a complex man, certainly a doer of both good and evil works. Focusing on the evil only, and making a conclusion that he was nothing more than a man of the flesh, and that's it, is being dishonest and corrupt. You can't erase his accomplishments as much as you like to do. His legacy is tarnished because of his sins ... but I'm not going to renounce that he taught me the bible. And you can't stand that he taught God's word and folks appreciated it, and still do? The man is dead, and still he's doing more thru his books even today then you're doing, condemning and complaining about his shortcomings and not much else.Link to comment
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oldiesman
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rascal
I have never lied about ANYTHING that I have posted here......there is no need, as it was plenty horrible without embellishment.
Every single thing that I have posted oconcerning the abuses suffered have all been verified by other posters or backed up with similar accounts. I defy you to point out a single instance of my being dishonest.
Again I say ... MY spirituality or lack there of has no bearing whatsoever on the blackness of vpw`s sins.
Galations and it`s standard for the man of the spirit stand regardless of my spirituality and lack there off...lol
Seriously, I have no respect for the opinion of one who`s only problem with twi is that it hit him in the pocket book.
To hell with our brothers and sisters who suffered and died....to hell with the families destroyed....the children forever lost through our participation in twi....it simply sucked because oldies didn`t like to tithe.
Your attacks on the innocent and to blacken their names and veracity to hide the guilt of your disgraced minister and the injustices endured directly at his hands is reprehensible.
Please cease your personal attacks and limit your comments to the information being dicsussed on the thread topic.
Now...back to why we think trinitarian believing christians are so bad....Do you have an opinion one way or another oldies or are you just here to obscure my point of view by burying it under personal assaults on my moral character, spirituality, and veracity?
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Don'tFenceMeIn
Personally, OM, you're always so available here to defend docvic...seems to me you must be independently wealthy to have so much time to post...possibly why you seem so detached from reality.
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