quote: Also, I think I see clearly now from your post what CES's beliefs are on this subject...a "godly proposition." Hummmmmmmmmmmmmm.
I don't know what CES teaches about abortion, so I wouldn't assume what I said agrees or summarizes their concept of it. If you want to know, I suggest you email them or JAL.
I am amazed that most of us who claim to be ex-way people yet we absolutely WILL NOT let go of the JC is Not God doctrine of the Way. Dr. W said that the difficult verses need to be understood in light of the clear verses. Well, obviously what we called the "difficult verses" are the "clear verses" to the trinitarians. e.g. Col. 1:16-18 John 17:5 John 1:1, for example.
Can we read English? What do these verses say? Re-read VPW's explanation in the JC is Not God book and HONESTLY see if his explanations make any sense to you at all NOW. Are these verses unclear? Many of the explanations seem unclear to me now.
I exhort you to read the Gospel of John straight thru as if you have never read it before. It may be hard to do, but try it. Try not to hear VPW as you read it. If you still can hear VPW in your head, well, YOU are not reading it.
There is much more to Jesus Christ than we ever were taught in the Way. We were taught the epistles but honestly, did we ever really read and study the Gospels? We may never truly know if JC is God or Not God on this side of eternity. All I know is that many TWI followers still think disparangingly of trinitarians. Just think...we MAY HAVE BEEN WRONG. What makes us think we are/were so right? I truly think God has to reveal many of these truths to us. He will if we ask Him. And don't be surprised if His answers contradict what we have been taught.
I myself went thru hell and back with this issue and have made peace with it. Each man and woman needs to come to grips with this issue. Nothing I write here or anything anyone else can write here will settle this in the hearts of all of us.
I am sad that ex-TWI people make this a bone of contention in the Christian world. Some will not even consider going to church because of this. How sad since Hebrews 10:25 tells us to not forsake the gathering of ourselves together. The Christan walk is not a "lone ranger" deal. We all need eachother!
Let me tell you, I have found many wonderful men and women in the churches in my area of the map who love God and His people and who are doing great things for God and His kingdom. I belong to such a church and thank God for these wonderful people I have the privilege to help lead.
I truly pray I have commuicated this with love. It is a hard topic and one that I have struggled with for many years. May God help us all in our quest for truth regarding this devisive issue. May it cease to be devisive soon.
The Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father may not be one in substance, as the fourth century neo-platonists believed, but I Corinthians 8:6 declares that They ARE one in function.
I have known a number of Christians down through the years, and still fellowship with many on a daily basis, who subscribe to Trinitarian beliefs yet exhibit a relation with God through Jesus Christ that is vastly more honest and effective than anything I saw exhibited in TWI.
The doctrine of the Trinity is immeasurably better than Wierwille's "absent" Christ.
I think that many of us who believe that Jesus Christ is not God accept the hearts of those who believe otherwise.
First of all, VPW and The Way didnt invent the JC is not God doctrine. Neither did I, but to the extent I began to believe anything, I have always believed that way. Honestly, despite being "raised" in the mainline Methodist Church, my reaction upon learning of the book and the doctrine in TWI was, "so what?" Like, was that supposed to be news? So, it just may be that a lot of us are not thinking disparagingly of anyone. The issue of whether or not Jesus Christ is God may be important; it may be very important. But I can think of some very important and clearer things those of us who are Christians need to work on before we knock someone's heart because they do, or because they do not believe that Jesus Christ is God.
Yes Lifted, I agree..... Whether he is or isn`t does not change my responsibilities to God and my neighbor in the slightest...so to me, it is not a big deal whether folks believe one way or another....
You guys put it better than me...I too think that God is able to work with spirit filled folks ....I think that sometimes our *knowledge* puffs us up, to where we cannot hear the direction of God.
I wouldnt mind rocking the boat some. But it seemed like a good idea to count to ten (or more) after reading some of the recent posts and attacks. Otherwise I am sure I would do a real good job of riling both sides because Ive rarely had so many widely mixed feelings. So, I did what I thought might be a smart thing by trying to comment as close to the title topic as I could.
The doctrine of the trinity...is he is or is he ain't?...I doubt that you can find too many Christians who agree on EVERYTHING doctrinal...why make the trinity such a line of demarcation? I'm not qualified to say who is right or wrong, and I seriously doubt that God will seperate the trinitarians from the non-trinitarians and send them to different heavens.
quote: I think that many of us who believe that Jesus Christ is not God accept the hearts of those who believe otherwise.
Amen, and amen! I for one do not believe in the trinity, yet I have friends who do, and while it is a point of discussion between us from time to time, it is not a "bone of contention".
The book CES has put out "One God, And One Lord" is both excellent, and comprehensive. A lot of it is on-line, so you don't have to buy a thing. Check it out, at the same site Biblical Unitarian that I mentioned earlier. :)-->
Meanwhile --- I will continue to refute the trinity, and the deity of Christ, while loving and inter-acting with those who profess to be my brothers and sisters in Christ. That is -- after all -- what it is all about. :)-->
Thank you exousia for sharing your thoughts on this. I feel much the same way as you in your struggle to understand and come to grips with this issue.
I've taken a slightly different path with this, though. You have a lot of verses indicating that Jesus is the Son of God. You have some verses indicating that he is (or is called) God. Could he be both? Maybe? Maybe not?
You have equally brilliant persons arguing for either side of the coin. The bible doesn't resolve the issue in and of itself.
I've decided that I can believe Jesus is the Son of God with no problems. I've asked him to tell me personally, point-blank, if he is God or not, because I figure that's the only way it can be resolved, at least for me.
I'm still waiting for an answer. But I'm content to wait. :)-->
The Great Commission via twi and offshoots (some, anyway):
And Jesus said, "Go into all the world, teaching and convincing others what you think is my true identity, forsaking all others who believe a different way, puffing yourselves up by sheer intellect and incomplete studies, accepting whatever the mogs say, and convincing others to do likewise."
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot what Jesus said.
I was raised non-Trinitarian in the denomination Church of Christ, so when JCING was presented to me, I went so?
That's why when I say I believe in the orthodox doctrines about Jesus' deity it was not an easy road. It took years of study and prayer and the final acceptance did not come lightly.
And I know there are lots of Christian beliefs out there that are not trinitarian whether it is Arian or Gnostic or others.
I still believe they are wrong and that the issue was settled by Jesus himself in the Gospels.
I think that making the trinity a big issue can be yet one more barrier that seperates us fro our bretheren....I think that when we have these walls of mistrust and judgement between us, we are unable to enjoy the benefets of interaction with an awfully large segment of the body of Christ.
God works with us, it would appear, no matter what size the box we build (theology) and place him in.
If we aren`t fighting and judging over doctrinal issues...minor things that lead to a lack of respect and mistrust... we are free to enjoy and benefit from each others long suits.
Are you sure Church of Christ doesn't believe in the Trinity? When we visited one several times, they definitely talked about it a lot and believed that way.
Also, we liked the church and felt moved everytime we went. What we didn't like was it was led by a mog with lots of vp similar characteristics--very controlling.
quote:The Great Commission via twi and offshoots (some, anyway): ... And Jesus said, "Go into all the world, teaching and convincing others what you think is my true identity, forsaking all others who believe a different way ...
Let's consider examining the reverse. Years ago, I remember wanting to date this gal who was a churchgoer, who also strongly believed in the trinity. She wouldn't accept my non-trinitarian beliefs; wouldn't go any further than being a casual acquaintance. So the chasm certainly works both ways.
Do trinitarians look on non-trinitarians as cult members? Yes. Outcasts, wierdos, even possibly non-Christians. I actually think there's more persecution and ill-will towards non-trintarians, than the other way around.
Finally, as a test, verbalize your non-trinitarian beliefs in a trinitarian church for any length of time, and see how long you will be tolerated.
quote:Finally, as a test, verbalize your non-trinitarian beliefs in a trinitarian church for any length of time, and see how long you will be tolerated.
I'm sorry. Did I say I had non-trinitarian beliefs?
Hey no denying that there are those on either side of the argument that are intolerant.
So that means we should continue to be??
As far as voicing my beliefs one way or another, there has not been a single denomination that I have visited or participated in since leaving that held my beliefs, be they trinity, dead alive, now four crucified....whatever...that have never held that against me..nor prevented me from discussing contrary doctrine nor were they afraid to consider my pov....suprisingly, many agreed...sometimes I learned from them and changed my opinion....it`s all good...it`s growth.
As a matter of fact .... they demonstrated great tolerance and love....My lack of same beliefs has never been a deterant to my being loved respected and allowed to participate in various programs even to the point of teaching and directing.
When we bicker over doctrinal differences....it reminds me of my children....they will fight to the death over some silly thing...each convinced of their rightness...hating each other over dumb stuff ...like Dad likes strawberries better than apples ....frankly it doesn`t matter who is right...it is annoying....it really DOESN`T matter...Daddy prefers what Daddy prefers....all of their arguing won`t change it....I would be much happier if they would stop wasting their time making each other (and me lol) miserable and just play nice....which eventually as they grow older they do.
As an example ... We have a local methodist church that allowed the mormons to use their church in the afternoons for a couple of years for their services while the mormons built their own.....despite enormous doctrinal differences...the methodist recognised the mormons as our bretheren and neighbors and went the extra mile to demonstrate love...
THAT imo was an outstanding demonstration of graciousness and spiritual maturity.
Our karate class held bible study once a week...now mind you, we have people from every denomination and belief system imaginable....It was amazing how we were able to learn from each other....simply because we had already developed a respect for one anothers strengths and abilities.
It was amazing how we were able to apreciate each others unique perspectives....9 times out of ten....our perspectives dovetailed enriching each others understanding...and it never failed that we came away with a greater apreciation for the scriptures studied.
Never once did it degenerate into a battle over doctrines....it didn`t need to, there are far to many meaningfull things to study and enrich our lives with.
We are not nearly so different as we were led to believe.
Now Rascal If we could just get you to let the local Wafers use your shoe for twig that would be an outstanding demonstration of graciousness and spiritual maturity. Hey look at the bright side you would be giving them the Boot this time. :D-->
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oldiesman
Don'tFenceMeIn:
I don't know what CES teaches about abortion, so I wouldn't assume what I said agrees or summarizes their concept of it. If you want to know, I suggest you email them or JAL.Link to comment
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Don'tFenceMeIn
Forgive me, OM. I thought you were with them.
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exousia
I am amazed that most of us who claim to be ex-way people yet we absolutely WILL NOT let go of the JC is Not God doctrine of the Way. Dr. W said that the difficult verses need to be understood in light of the clear verses. Well, obviously what we called the "difficult verses" are the "clear verses" to the trinitarians. e.g. Col. 1:16-18 John 17:5 John 1:1, for example.
Can we read English? What do these verses say? Re-read VPW's explanation in the JC is Not God book and HONESTLY see if his explanations make any sense to you at all NOW. Are these verses unclear? Many of the explanations seem unclear to me now.
I exhort you to read the Gospel of John straight thru as if you have never read it before. It may be hard to do, but try it. Try not to hear VPW as you read it. If you still can hear VPW in your head, well, YOU are not reading it.
There is much more to Jesus Christ than we ever were taught in the Way. We were taught the epistles but honestly, did we ever really read and study the Gospels? We may never truly know if JC is God or Not God on this side of eternity. All I know is that many TWI followers still think disparangingly of trinitarians. Just think...we MAY HAVE BEEN WRONG. What makes us think we are/were so right? I truly think God has to reveal many of these truths to us. He will if we ask Him. And don't be surprised if His answers contradict what we have been taught.
I myself went thru hell and back with this issue and have made peace with it. Each man and woman needs to come to grips with this issue. Nothing I write here or anything anyone else can write here will settle this in the hearts of all of us.
I am sad that ex-TWI people make this a bone of contention in the Christian world. Some will not even consider going to church because of this. How sad since Hebrews 10:25 tells us to not forsake the gathering of ourselves together. The Christan walk is not a "lone ranger" deal. We all need eachother!
Let me tell you, I have found many wonderful men and women in the churches in my area of the map who love God and His people and who are doing great things for God and His kingdom. I belong to such a church and thank God for these wonderful people I have the privilege to help lead.
I truly pray I have commuicated this with love. It is a hard topic and one that I have struggled with for many years. May God help us all in our quest for truth regarding this devisive issue. May it cease to be devisive soon.
exousia
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waterbuffalo
Gosh, Exousia, what a beautiful post! My thoughts exactly.
Thanks for putting them into words.
WB
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Steve Lortz
The Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father may not be one in substance, as the fourth century neo-platonists believed, but I Corinthians 8:6 declares that They ARE one in function.
I have known a number of Christians down through the years, and still fellowship with many on a daily basis, who subscribe to Trinitarian beliefs yet exhibit a relation with God through Jesus Christ that is vastly more honest and effective than anything I saw exhibited in TWI.
The doctrine of the Trinity is immeasurably better than Wierwille's "absent" Christ.
Love,
Steve
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smitty
Well said Steve and Exousia!!!!!
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rascal
Agreed...great post STeve and exousia.
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Lifted Up
I think that many of us who believe that Jesus Christ is not God accept the hearts of those who believe otherwise.
First of all, VPW and The Way didnt invent the JC is not God doctrine. Neither did I, but to the extent I began to believe anything, I have always believed that way. Honestly, despite being "raised" in the mainline Methodist Church, my reaction upon learning of the book and the doctrine in TWI was, "so what?" Like, was that supposed to be news? So, it just may be that a lot of us are not thinking disparagingly of anyone. The issue of whether or not Jesus Christ is God may be important; it may be very important. But I can think of some very important and clearer things those of us who are Christians need to work on before we knock someone's heart because they do, or because they do not believe that Jesus Christ is God.
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rascal
Yes Lifted, I agree..... Whether he is or isn`t does not change my responsibilities to God and my neighbor in the slightest...so to me, it is not a big deal whether folks believe one way or another....
You guys put it better than me...I too think that God is able to work with spirit filled folks ....I think that sometimes our *knowledge* puffs us up, to where we cannot hear the direction of God.
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Lifted Up
I wouldnt mind rocking the boat some. But it seemed like a good idea to count to ten (or more) after reading some of the recent posts and attacks. Otherwise I am sure I would do a real good job of riling both sides because Ive rarely had so many widely mixed feelings. So, I did what I thought might be a smart thing by trying to comment as close to the title topic as I could.
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GrouchoMarxJr
The doctrine of the trinity...is he is or is he ain't?...I doubt that you can find too many Christians who agree on EVERYTHING doctrinal...why make the trinity such a line of demarcation? I'm not qualified to say who is right or wrong, and I seriously doubt that God will seperate the trinitarians from the non-trinitarians and send them to different heavens.
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dmiller
Amen, and amen! I for one do not believe in the trinity, yet I have friends who do, and while it is a point of discussion between us from time to time, it is not a "bone of contention".
The Trinity is discussed by CES, and for your traditional viewpoint, check out the The Think Tank.
The book CES has put out "One God, And One Lord" is both excellent, and comprehensive. A lot of it is on-line, so you don't have to buy a thing. Check it out, at the same site Biblical Unitarian that I mentioned earlier.
:)-->
Meanwhile --- I will continue to refute the trinity, and the deity of Christ, while loving and inter-acting with those who profess to be my brothers and sisters in Christ. That is -- after all -- what it is all about.
:)-->
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Kevlar2000
Thank you exousia for sharing your thoughts on this. I feel much the same way as you in your struggle to understand and come to grips with this issue.
I've taken a slightly different path with this, though. You have a lot of verses indicating that Jesus is the Son of God. You have some verses indicating that he is (or is called) God. Could he be both? Maybe? Maybe not?
You have equally brilliant persons arguing for either side of the coin. The bible doesn't resolve the issue in and of itself.
I've decided that I can believe Jesus is the Son of God with no problems. I've asked him to tell me personally, point-blank, if he is God or not, because I figure that's the only way it can be resolved, at least for me.
I'm still waiting for an answer. But I'm content to wait.
:)-->
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waterbuffalo
The Great Commission via twi and offshoots (some, anyway):
And Jesus said, "Go into all the world, teaching and convincing others what you think is my true identity, forsaking all others who believe a different way, puffing yourselves up by sheer intellect and incomplete studies, accepting whatever the mogs say, and convincing others to do likewise."
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot what Jesus said.
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def59
I was raised non-Trinitarian in the denomination Church of Christ, so when JCING was presented to me, I went so?
That's why when I say I believe in the orthodox doctrines about Jesus' deity it was not an easy road. It took years of study and prayer and the final acceptance did not come lightly.
And I know there are lots of Christian beliefs out there that are not trinitarian whether it is Arian or Gnostic or others.
I still believe they are wrong and that the issue was settled by Jesus himself in the Gospels.
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rascal
Lol water bufflo
I think that making the trinity a big issue can be yet one more barrier that seperates us fro our bretheren....I think that when we have these walls of mistrust and judgement between us, we are unable to enjoy the benefets of interaction with an awfully large segment of the body of Christ.
God works with us, it would appear, no matter what size the box we build (theology) and place him in.
If we aren`t fighting and judging over doctrinal issues...minor things that lead to a lack of respect and mistrust... we are free to enjoy and benefit from each others long suits.
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Ham
I think a lot of the fighting over the trinity sidetracked closer examination of a lot of the practical errors we were subject to.
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waterbuffalo
def59,
Are you sure Church of Christ doesn't believe in the Trinity? When we visited one several times, they definitely talked about it a lot and believed that way.
Also, we liked the church and felt moved everytime we went. What we didn't like was it was led by a mog with lots of vp similar characteristics--very controlling.
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oldiesman
Do trinitarians look on non-trinitarians as cult members? Yes. Outcasts, wierdos, even possibly non-Christians. I actually think there's more persecution and ill-will towards non-trintarians, than the other way around.
Finally, as a test, verbalize your non-trinitarian beliefs in a trinitarian church for any length of time, and see how long you will be tolerated.
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waterbuffalo
I'm sorry. Did I say I had non-trinitarian beliefs?
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Mike
Hey! Try verbalizing your trinity QUESTIONS in a triple-vision church and see how long you last!
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rascal
Hey no denying that there are those on either side of the argument that are intolerant.
So that means we should continue to be??
As far as voicing my beliefs one way or another, there has not been a single denomination that I have visited or participated in since leaving that held my beliefs, be they trinity, dead alive, now four crucified....whatever...that have never held that against me..nor prevented me from discussing contrary doctrine nor were they afraid to consider my pov....suprisingly, many agreed...sometimes I learned from them and changed my opinion....it`s all good...it`s growth.
As a matter of fact .... they demonstrated great tolerance and love....My lack of same beliefs has never been a deterant to my being loved respected and allowed to participate in various programs even to the point of teaching and directing.
When we bicker over doctrinal differences....it reminds me of my children....they will fight to the death over some silly thing...each convinced of their rightness...hating each other over dumb stuff ...like Dad likes strawberries better than apples ....frankly it doesn`t matter who is right...it is annoying....it really DOESN`T matter...Daddy prefers what Daddy prefers....all of their arguing won`t change it....I would be much happier if they would stop wasting their time making each other (and me lol) miserable and just play nice....which eventually as they grow older they do.
As an example ... We have a local methodist church that allowed the mormons to use their church in the afternoons for a couple of years for their services while the mormons built their own.....despite enormous doctrinal differences...the methodist recognised the mormons as our bretheren and neighbors and went the extra mile to demonstrate love...
THAT imo was an outstanding demonstration of graciousness and spiritual maturity.
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rascal
Our karate class held bible study once a week...now mind you, we have people from every denomination and belief system imaginable....It was amazing how we were able to learn from each other....simply because we had already developed a respect for one anothers strengths and abilities.
It was amazing how we were able to apreciate each others unique perspectives....9 times out of ten....our perspectives dovetailed enriching each others understanding...and it never failed that we came away with a greater apreciation for the scriptures studied.
Never once did it degenerate into a battle over doctrines....it didn`t need to, there are far to many meaningfull things to study and enrich our lives with.
We are not nearly so different as we were led to believe.
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WhiteDove
Now Rascal If we could just get you to let the local Wafers use your shoe for twig that would be an outstanding demonstration of graciousness and spiritual maturity. Hey look at the bright side you would be giving them the Boot this time.
:D-->
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