I see your point better now, and fully agree. I didn’t take it personally, but I thank you for your polite example to others here in mentioning it.
Let’s remember now, that the definition of love from God’s point of view may differ from that definition we may pick up via our five senses. We need SOME doctrine to know how to get love right in our mind before it can come out in our actions.
I think there is enough accuracy of God’s Word out there beyond PFAL for SOME to get it right some of the time. That love does cover a multitude of errors in doctrine and hence the blessings can flow much better. It’s in this area that I fully agree with you.
The power, the FULL power, is something few have even sought over the centuries, let alone achieved. This is because those details of doctrine concerning our power to defeat the adversary at his every turn were the details he most vociferously attacked in the first century and in the first copies of scripture, as well as in the evolution of languages and culture and mass religious perspectives. It’s in this area that Dr was given the job of correcting.
The love issue is indeed important.
In the crucial 1974 SNS teaching I’ve often cited here titled “Christ Formed In You” Dr brings out many of these same points.
In that teaching Dr says (among many other things about our relationship with Jesus Christ… are you listening UncleHairey?…) about this love situation:
“God so loved, according to John, remember, 3:16. God so loved that He what? Gave. All love is giving.”
and:
“We walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us. He who knew no sin became sin so you and I might become what? The righteousness of God in Him, imagine that. God so loved that He gave. Jesus Christ so loved that he gave, and you and I must so love that we have to give. I have to love to the point where people learn to love because of the love that I share with them. That’s what I mean when I say in classes you have to learn to let people walk on your feet until they learn to walk on their own. You have to be the hands of people until they learn to use their own hands. You have to be the heart of people until people learn to use their heart and extend it out to the lives of other people. We have to be broken bread for people until they learn to break their own bread of life. God so loved, Christ loved, and we have to so love because he has given himself for us an offering, a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour, and that’s better than Chanel No. 5! And the Word says that we are to God a sweet smell. When this Christ is formed within us to the end that we love with the love wherewith he loved, and people it is possible, it is possible to love the unlovable, in spite of. It is possible to so renew your mind that there is absolutely nothing that any other Christian believer does but that you still love them and don’t criticize them and find fault with them.”
and:
“You see, we’ve got to go to the Word and love with the love wherewith Christ Jesus loved and you’re never going to get to that place unless you commit yourself to the integrity of God and His Word and let this Word be built in you, and the building of the Word takes time, people. It’s not something you take a class on Power for Abundant Living in two weeks and walk away and say, ‘Well, now I got it. For the rest of my life, I can fool around.’ That’s just the bare foundation. It gives you all the principles upon which to build. That I know. But the building takes time. Like building this Biblical Research Center takes time. If we were going to manufacture a piano, you could have all the things to put in a piano, it still takes time to put it together. And in that process of learning and growing, where people move from hearing the Word to building the Word within their life takes time, and that takes a lot of love. __ Well, think of the love God had in Christ Jesus to make salvation available to us, to make it possible for us to be born again of God’s spirit, to be filled with the holy spirit, to have a knowledge of His Word so we could rightly divide it and operate manifestations decently and in order that all of God’s people can be edified, built up by way of exhortation and comfort, to hear from God Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth.”
and:
“What a record. God so loved, Jesus Christ so loved, Paul and Silas so loved, that even though they had laid many stripes upon them, cast them into prison, they sang hymns, they praised the Lord, they prayed, and when this thing occurred, the jailor said, ‘Fellas, I want that stuff you got. I want to tap into the same thing you got. What must I do’ to be what? Saved! Right.”
and:
“God at work within us. Spiritually, He’s at work within us, that we may will and do his good pleasure. Now to know what is God’s pleasure, you must know God’s Word, and one of the things that is God’s pleasure is certainly to love with the love wherewith He loved, the tenderness with which He was tender, the joy with which He joyed, the blessings with which He blessed, the thanksgiving with which He lived. It is God at work within us, to will and to do what? His good pleasure. You see, God is building His love-life in you, His righteousness, His strength, His perfection, His goodness, His justice, His forgiveness. God is at work within you to build that within you so that you can share it with others.”
and most poignantly:
“Grow in grace. The word “grace” literally could be translated “love’s gifts.” Grace is always God, who is love, at work. Love at work is grace. It says “grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” It doesn’t say “grow in the knowledge of scripture.” The Way Ministry’s loaded with that stuff at times, but no love. We’ve got grads of the class on Power for Abundant Living, I wish I’d never taught them. All they do is prance around showing how much knowledge of the scriptures they have and make everybody else that hasn’t got that knowledge feel badly, if they can. Why my goodness, what did I ever teach them God’s Word for? It breaks my heart. It’s not the knowledge of the scripture you know, but the extent to which you know Him and walk in the love wherewith He loved. Nothing wrong with knowledge of the scripture, but it looks to me you haven’t got enough knowledge if you don’t apply it, and you ought to read a few verses that tell you how to put it on, how to love with the love wherewith He loved, how to forgive with the forgiveness for which He forgives, how to keep your tongue under control so you don’t go blabbing everything all the time. It’s an unruly evil, remember? The tongue. No man can tame it, so quit trying to tame it, let God tame it. He’s the only one that can do it, otherwise you’re always gonna have the running off of the tongue.”
I sometimes wonder if the ONLY reason that we have a problem with folks who believe in the trinity is because we were TOLD that we had a problem with them ...told by a drunken, lecherous, lying, plagerising, adulterous son of a beech.
Seems to me that God may be more concerned with how we treat each other (ie love your neighbor) rather than being disgusted and ugly with each other over doctrinal differences.
My daughter was invited to a baptist church today....of course, my husband of course had snotty things to say about their beliefs...n general lack of spirituality....I mentioned that the folks I was going with were very strong chrsitians....and that God could work in that group with these spirit filled christians regardless of the specifics of trinity or non....every BIT as well as he did with us and our doctrinal errors....
When you look at what lies WE believed....and yet God was able to reach and teach us.....frankly, I think that our belief had as many or more heinous errors than just about any church I have visited since leaving.
I mean just LOOK at what he managed to accomplish for us in SPITE of our leaders being such amoral creeps!
Matter of fact, the ministers doctorate was real, and I doubt that all of the women belonging to him was one of the perks in HIS contract...Drunkeness is not a privelege....How much more could God work with a guy that didn`t have his senses befuddled in the manner of OUR leaders...be they trinitarian, librarian, liberitarian...
I think that this is yet another area of residual arrogance we carry over from twi and our being involved with very evil men.
I dunno where you see *pride* in me or or through my posts......but you are dead wrong ...why does this not suprise me?
As far as me being immune from evil...I have no idea what you are talking about.....immune from being evil? immune from attacks of evil?
I don`t embrace and indulge in evil if THATS what you mean...It is real easy not to hurt people, steal from them, seduce them in God`s name when you are a genuine christian....the counterfet are the ones making excuses for not living up to the standard that God describes in the bible.
I would describe myself as just plain humble, simply because the only thing that I now REALLY know ...is that I DON`T know
I understand that as ex wafers we may have a lot bigger sin and false doctrinal issues than most of the churches and trinitarians that we are piously pointing our fingers of judgement at.
Many times, I think that it is our own arrogance that blinds us.
Yeah Mike...I read your post, quoting Veepee. I read NOTHING that would indicate that wierwille knew the first thing about a relationship with Jesus Christ...I guess we just have different ideas about what a relationship with someone else consists of...
good posts, and good points -- rascal. I was leery of attending other churches at first, but after going to a few, I was able to see the "genuinity" (did I just invent a new word?) ;)--> of the folks in attendance. The only thing that kept me from checking out different groups earlier than I did, was that "air of superiority and arrogance" that you mentioned.
Baptist doctrine I don't totally get along with, but there are some great people I have met at the two Baptist churches I have gone to. Likewise -- I've met some great folks at both Messianic Jewish and Jehovah Witness meetings as well, that I have attended.
And I agree with you also chwester, when you said loving God and your neighbor is more important than correct doctrine. Vpw picked up a lot of various "ideas", "doctrines", "revelations", (call them what you will) -- and molded them all into what became pfal. Whether it was intended to happen or not, I (along with just about everyone else) felt superior to any and all other religious outfits, believing we had the "true Word" -- as revealed to us by our father-in-the-word, the mogfodat.
vpw used things from books that were by trinitarian authors, in my opinion, because there were "snippets" of info he could use to further his own purposes. Bullinger was a trinitarian, and look at all the "press" he got because of twi. Bullinger offers a lot of things, and vpw picked up on many of them, but he didn't acknowledge Bullinger's advocation of the trinity, or the deity of Christ. As I said on page one -- he was selective.
And Mike -- I pulled out my copy of the July/August 1985 Way Magazine. The last paragraph of page 12 states:
quote:The heart's cry of the common man is for help. Man's help truely has to come from the Lord. We must learn to constantly go to God's Word, the fountainhead of all truth, for that help.
Not one mention of pfal, or mastering it. According to vpw, God's Word is the fountainhead of all truth, not pfal. After all -- his signature is right under that paragraph.
I’m encouraged greatly to see someone returning to the originals. Keep up the good work.
In the paragraph you quoted Dr is referring to PFAL when he says God’s Word. I’ll explain soon.
***
The twice issued instructions that we (especially top leadership) were to master PFAL came not in the magazine articles, but in his last spoken teaching, which was taped.
This last teaching was lost, or misplaced for years. Most grads never knew about it.
I posted a thread on it, including the entire transcript of the tape here in the first days of my posting. It’s titled “Dr's Last Teaching - LOST for 17 Years!”
In many other places Dr instructs us to master PFAL, and in many other places he shows us that PFAL is the Word of God. I’ve posted several of each of these frequently here over the months.
God commissioned Dr to receive His Word by the process of spiritual revelation (along with a lot of 5-senses research work) like it had not been known since the first century if he would teach it to others. Dr did this in the PFAL writings, and so they are the reissued, differently formatted written Word. This why he told us many times to master them.
God is allowed to alter the format of His own Word, and we know He did so in switching from the format of His Word written in the stars to the more “down to earth” writings in stone, papyrus, parchment, and paper, starting in Moses' time.
While we certainly have no authority to do this, and the closing lines of the Book of Revelation say so, God is allowed to alter and adapt His own Word any way He pleases. Dr taught us this in the “Introduction to the Appendixes” in the back of RHST. Few saw it. One of the reasons Dr often told us we must master PFAL was that we acted a lot like Eve and got sloppy about our study of the class materials. We missed a lot of the revelation that was written.
***
When Dr refers to the Word of God, or God’s Word, he’s ultimately talking about the perfect spiritual understanding of God’s mind, heart and will that comes only from a relationship with God, and whereby He teaches directly to our minds. However our minds must be prepared for this. One of the first critical steps to arriving at this relationship is study in the 5-senses realm of the written Word.
In order to “constantly go to God’s Word” as you have quoted him we must FIRST constantly read the accurate written Word with our 5-senses, and then we will able to constantly go to the revelation God’s Word He gives us directly.
The King James Version of the Bible, is not the Bible, and we were taught this early in the class and in the PFAL book. It’s only approximately God’s Word. A translation and a version are the works of scholars, men who attempt to re-construct what they THINK the original said in modern English. Unfortunately, there are no authoritative translators from the original languages, and even worse, there are no original manuscripts from which translations can be made.
All we have of the original manuscripts are copies (fragments at that) made by a reprobate church that had fallen and rejected God, much like Israel did over and over again in the Old Testament. It’s part of the human condition to follow in the footsteps of Adam. It’s our sin nature.
We can see how Adam fell by following Eve outright. We can see how Eve went wrong by getting sloppy with the accurate Word she was given as she added one word, subtracted one word, and changed one word. This approximate Word she held may have been sufficient for many of life’s situations, but not when she came face to face with the devil. She may have had the doctrine approximately correct, but approximate wont cut it when the power is needed the most. Being face to face with the devil, she needed the power of the accurate Word of God, but she didn’t have it. Because of this great weakness she succumbed to the devil’s deceit. She got tricked.
Dr is telling us in that paragraph you quoted to constantly come to God’s accurate Word, not an approximation, so that we may not make the same mistake Eve made and allow it to get slightly altered in our minds.
Anything in our minds that is not refreshed by the original stimulation will slowly corrupt. It’s the way brains work. This is one of the very few things that brain scientists pretty well understand. Scientists who have mimicked brain circuits to produce artificial neural nets are able to train them up to perform very impressive tasks that regular computer programming can never accomplish. However, these artificial brains “forget” just like ours if stimulation other than the original training is regularly presented to them.
In the course of simply being alive, our 5-senses flood our brains with new stimulation constantly, literally ploughing over earlier training slowly but surely. In simple terms, if you put God’s Word in your mind on Monday, some small amount of it has leaked out or changed by Friday. One year later a substantial amount has leaked out or changed. The only way to overcome this is to constantly refresh our minds with God’s Word in it’s accurate form, which is the written form of PFAL.
It’s actually a good thing that God made our minds “leaky” this way, because otherwise there’d be no way to have painful memories diminish. Painful memories can and should leak out, and this is part of the healing process. If painful memories are constantly refreshed, like the way people who were hurt in the ministry are constantly talking about them here and being reminded of them by others here, then these memories will not leak out and they will stick around indefinitely. If the descriptions used to describe these memories get many different descriptions and angles, then the pain is enriched and distorted way out of proportion, instead of diminishing and vanishing.
I mourn for the people here who are constantly refreshing and enhancing and exaggerating the memories of people like excathedra and encouraging her to participate in the process. Though some think it’s loving to do this, they are hurting her, themselves, and many others in the process.
We can constantly come back to God’s Word in it’s accurate form as presented in PFAL and we will see this process produce a rich, deep, and everlasting grasp of truth and love.
Or we can try the devil’s counterfeit of this process and constantly come back to the pains of the past to allow them to get a rich, deep, and everlasting grip on our hearts.
We decide which way to go, the way of life or the way of death.
I wish more people would come back to the originals like you did with the magazine. As we constantly come back to God’s Word in PFAL we’re going to see the same kinds of things we saw when we were first exposed to these writings, and this time we there is no Corps to spoil it with forced spirituality and boring marketing techniques.
I think in this thread I just brought together the three threads I’ve been visiting lately. I just touched on pjroberge’s “Witnessing Jesus Christ vs. TWI or Piffle” an just before that I touched on Oakspear’s “Wierwille's Actions vs. His Words: Starting Over.”
Maybe I can take a little break as I’ve been constantly posting for days now.
Mike...when you're finished with your break...take your time...
Question...Since you are so obviously convinced of the greatness of pfal, what exactly are you doing to "master" it? I would assume that the educational value would, by necessity, be translated into practical application eventually.
Have you started teaching the class on your own yet, to others?
Do you have a home fellowship?
Are you "networking" with other fellowships?
Do you personally have a "gift ministry"?
I was just wondering what you did, besides post here, arguing with people that are either amused or annoyed or both, by your antics. I must say, if I were as convinced as you are of pfal, I would be doing something other than posting here with all these heretics. That is, unless it was only a "head trip" for me.
I think you should do a "PFAL Translation of the Bible", or "The Greatest Secret in the Planet Today!" Version,
which you can piece and stitch together from
scriptural citations from among Wierwille's works, including his "Literal Translation According to Usage" thingies, and even toss in footnotes from PFAL, or, if copyright issues arise, footnotes from Bullinger and Stiles.
If you genuinely believe what you believe - wouldn't it make better sense to take the next bold step in the evolution of your peculiar faith, and produce a compact version of a "PFAL"
Bible? Or perhaps even something of a "Companion Version" but one which incorporates Wierwillian notions.*
Such a version is what todays seemingly attention deficit generation calls for.
And Mike, I think you're the man to do it.
Now sign off and get crackin' on that version!
:)-->
Danny
* and doesn't simply cross out Bullinger's name on the cover. :P-->
I’m encouraged greatly to see someone returning to the originals. Keep up the good work.
Mike -- hey -- for your info, I only pulled out that magazine, because you cited a quote from it. I am not "returning to the originals" as you said. I (for one) do not mind your posts --it is a free country after all, and folks can beleive as they wish -- and you are no exception.
I have "paid my dues" in twi, and I have no wish to return. I will say that vpw did teach some good stuff, coupled with the fact that he has also taught some bad stuff. The fact that you care to hang on to his teachings is only admirable in the sense that your tenacity has roots.
I will be checking out the Last/ Lost Teaching to see what it says, but don't hold your breath. I don't expect much.
Doctor spun a good yarn, and we were all young when we first heard it. We are older, and wiser now. I have materials that go back to the mid '70s here -- and looking them over -- I see a decline in both the ministry, as well as the Word that was taught in twi. And that is just from what is in print. Looking at the "ministry", and it's "outreach" today (in physical terms), it is evident that even "mastering pfal", or the "originals" would not be a sufficient enough skid to stop the downhill slide they have embarked on, and are reaping the results of.
What I dislike most while with TWI was the idea that Trinitarians were "evil, possessed'" and in the words of LCM, had "homosexual spirits".
A bizarre conclusion.
Most trinitarians I met were kind, considerate, and were not as hateful. I think most ex-Way ministries still go with the no trinity idea of VPW, but they do not spout off like TWI on people that believe in the trinity.
I am not sure if TWI followers are still hateful to trinitarians or not.
The attitude when I left almost two years ago had softened in it's outward appearance. It was more like a parent viewing a simple child:
"Those poor unlearned unbelievers. If only they would accept my obviously superior knowledge and sign my card after my awe-inspiring witnessing techniques."
As long as you folks are including all of the works that vp felt had merrit, damn well better add out takes from the porn doggy flick...by all means, that must be preserved for all spiritual posterity.
A few questions, however...
Do verbal but unrecorded teachings count?
Then we could include abortion is ok ....women are required to service the mog ... physical violence is apropriate to keep ones spouse and children lined up with God`s word....children are an acceptable sacrafice if it means keeping yourself alive to spread God`s word...and last , but most important of all....ANYTHING is lawfull as long as you can spiritually *handle* it.....
Hmmm maybe we should have different sections ...the *written* word ...the transcripts from the audio recorded word...ummm will we be including the oral word, as long as we can get three to agree that he said it? oh ... and Will there be any references at all made to the *tattered remnants* that we all (including vp) used heretofor? Lessee that makes four books, unless mike wants to add a book with his interpretations of the true meanings of vpw`s works.
Whew .... It`s gonna be one hell of a religion that is being started...that would make four books to Mikes new and improved word of God........
P.s. Mike, ex`s and others accounts are only exagerated in your own mind and unacceptable to talk about because you cannot reconcile the evil this man visited upon our brothers and sisters and the man you want to believe was a mog.....she and others have done an enormous amount of good in allowing us a glimpse of the darkness that vpw harbored.
Anyone who wants to hide vp`s true spiritual nature by shutting up those who experienced his evil are amoral creeps as well.
Mike..Just curious?? Why do you always bring up PFAL in every post that is started. If you want to continue in PFAL then please do so and try to keep it to yourself.
I enjoy reading all the post here but get so sick of reading about PFAL and having it chucked down my throat every time you post.
I find myself wondering why you are not a part of the only household that is in fellowship with God and why, if they do, reject your presence.
quote:I would describe myself as just plain humble, simply because the only thing that I now REALLY know ...is that I DON`T know
If this is true, then why all the intense, unrelenting wrath against Victor Paul?
God is the Ultimate Heart Searcher, not humans like us. For you to speak so boldly of VPW's motives and "true spiritual nature", like you know all about them and that's the final word, indicates a vast inconsistency with the above statement, not to mention what the scriptures say about forgiveness, mercy, tenderness, kindness, gentleness; or just plain humility..
Why the wrath? Why the friggin ANGER???? He HURT my brothers and sisters in Christ !!!!
It oughtta .... you off too....historically, God has taken a dim view of those who caused harm in his name...
However, I must say that it is your *unrelenting* defense of the ones responsible for the horrendous abuses and injustices wrought in Gods name that is probably what MY *unrelenting* wrath is directed at more so than anything else....lol.
What vpw did OUGHT to deeply offend and infuriate ANY sane human being ...how much MORE so any true christian?
I must say that I don`t believe my personal disgust with what that viscious amoral creep perpetrated in God`s name really has ANYTHING to do with my humbleness to God`s direction.
It is not MY opinion that condemns vpw and defines his true nature...I have simply pointed out in galations what GOD ALMIGHTY says is the true spiritual nature of one who committed the acts vpw did. Lol...sure bites dont` it?....read it...read what it says of liars, adulterers..ones who are filled with lascivious...wrath...strife...drunkness...read it and tell ME what God says.....
You don`t like it? wanna argue? think it`s an unfair assesment? After you have read the lists in galations of the actions of a man of the flesh verses man of the spirit and then whine to God...
I get very tired of hearing you making excuses for that wolf in sheep clothing....that devourer of God`s people... that destroyer of lives in order to make the stench of his legacy bearable, attempting to pass him off as a man of the spirit.....We were warned in the scriptures concerning those such as he....had we known of his actions back then....we might have recognised him for the theif that he was.......
*I* haven`t judge him harshly....the very scriptures that he himself lauded as the absolute end all be all final authority on everything pertaining to life and Godliness... ...convict him soundly with no help from me.
Once again though, you and Mike want to point the finger, attempting to make the innocent look bad, accusing yet again....this time of pride....mike wants to point the finger at ex and any others who speak up about abuse endured and claim that there is something wrong or bad about them for warning others of the EVIL that vpw and his bunch heartily embraced ..that these men were not what they led us to believe.. the only thing left in your arsenal now that the the evil has been exposed for all to see...is to try to discredit those who speak the truth in order to draw attention away from the sins of these evil men....too late...the cats outta the bag friend....the evil will never again be hidden.
Oh, well, it was JUST a CHILD who never got to be born because of the doctrine of devils teachings by vp.
naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. no use to get upset just because women believed that and did something they didn't believe in but was coerced into because it wasn't a human until it drew its first breath anyway. afterall, that's the WORD (not)
Amen Fence...your child, my child...way too many of our friends children...thousands of our children never to be known and treasured ...the lost granchildren to never be spoiled ...all of the future generations and their enrichment to our lives, forever lost...yep, I`d have to say that is worthey of a little anger.
But hey, where IS our gratitude??? Praise GAWD almighty ..if it HADN`T been for old vpw....we mighta ended up as one oh dem dere REALLY screwed up trinitarians...shiver
quote:OM, why the anger? ... Oh, well, it was JUST a CHILD who never got to be born because of the doctrine of devils teachings by vp. ...
The teaching that abortion is not murder, is not a doctrine of devils; and last time I checked, didn't force anybody to get their abortions. It did give folks free choice, which is a godly proposition.
Those who had abortions were all adults, signing consent papers. VPW had nothing to do with those decisions. Please stop shifting blame to VPW. If you or anyone else made a bad choice, years ago, it's time to take responsibility for your actions.
Your living in denial will never change the facts oldies,
VP`s amoral ungodly teaching just made the just made the manipulation easier to accept the decision that we were being forced to make.
It`s all as simple as abc boys n girls!
A) a vow made to be God must be kept or spiritual death a probability...
B) obediance to leadership necessary first foremost and always...
C) fetus is simply a bunch of paracitical cells preventing you from your duty...
D) trust us we have your spiritual wellbeing first and formost....
A+B+C+D = kill your child or die spiritually
Hey OUR oh so superior understanding of God`s word made us FREE to destroy our unborn babies when it interfered with our commitmnent to GOD! What freedome WE have compared to those EEEEEVIL trinitarians!!!!
Thankyou VP, I might have made some SERIOUS mistakes that I would regret later in life with all of those pesky children!
From OM: VPW had nothing to do with those decisions.
He didn't teach gullible, young, trusting, people who bellieved he spoke for God with all of their inexperienced, inmature hearts that the fetus wasn't a human being until it drew its first breath and abortion was simply a CHOICE?????
MY mistake was believing he spoke for God and not checking the scriptures more thoroughly for myself such as when John the Baptist leaped in Elizabeth's womb and many other verses that say the baby is a person.
Accept responsibility for being deceived and doing something I aways up to that point believed was wrong? Yes, more than you or anyone else will ever know...which brings me back to why I post...not for myself, but for someone else who may be tempted to believe the same lie who still has time to see the web of deceit and escape.
Also, I think I see clearly now from your post what CES's beliefs are on this subject...a "godly proposition." Hummmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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Mike
chwester,
I see your point better now, and fully agree. I didn’t take it personally, but I thank you for your polite example to others here in mentioning it.
Let’s remember now, that the definition of love from God’s point of view may differ from that definition we may pick up via our five senses. We need SOME doctrine to know how to get love right in our mind before it can come out in our actions.
I think there is enough accuracy of God’s Word out there beyond PFAL for SOME to get it right some of the time. That love does cover a multitude of errors in doctrine and hence the blessings can flow much better. It’s in this area that I fully agree with you.
The power, the FULL power, is something few have even sought over the centuries, let alone achieved. This is because those details of doctrine concerning our power to defeat the adversary at his every turn were the details he most vociferously attacked in the first century and in the first copies of scripture, as well as in the evolution of languages and culture and mass religious perspectives. It’s in this area that Dr was given the job of correcting.
The love issue is indeed important.
In the crucial 1974 SNS teaching I’ve often cited here titled “Christ Formed In You” Dr brings out many of these same points.
I posted the entire teaching on page 14 of the “Ubiquitous” thread and it can be clicked up with: http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a=tpc...3656073772&p=14
In that teaching Dr says (among many other things about our relationship with Jesus Christ… are you listening UncleHairey?…) about this love situation:
“God so loved, according to John, remember, 3:16. God so loved that He what? Gave. All love is giving.”
and:
“We walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us. He who knew no sin became sin so you and I might become what? The righteousness of God in Him, imagine that. God so loved that He gave. Jesus Christ so loved that he gave, and you and I must so love that we have to give. I have to love to the point where people learn to love because of the love that I share with them. That’s what I mean when I say in classes you have to learn to let people walk on your feet until they learn to walk on their own. You have to be the hands of people until they learn to use their own hands. You have to be the heart of people until people learn to use their heart and extend it out to the lives of other people. We have to be broken bread for people until they learn to break their own bread of life. God so loved, Christ loved, and we have to so love because he has given himself for us an offering, a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour, and that’s better than Chanel No. 5! And the Word says that we are to God a sweet smell. When this Christ is formed within us to the end that we love with the love wherewith he loved, and people it is possible, it is possible to love the unlovable, in spite of. It is possible to so renew your mind that there is absolutely nothing that any other Christian believer does but that you still love them and don’t criticize them and find fault with them.”
and:
“You see, we’ve got to go to the Word and love with the love wherewith Christ Jesus loved and you’re never going to get to that place unless you commit yourself to the integrity of God and His Word and let this Word be built in you, and the building of the Word takes time, people. It’s not something you take a class on Power for Abundant Living in two weeks and walk away and say, ‘Well, now I got it. For the rest of my life, I can fool around.’ That’s just the bare foundation. It gives you all the principles upon which to build. That I know. But the building takes time. Like building this Biblical Research Center takes time. If we were going to manufacture a piano, you could have all the things to put in a piano, it still takes time to put it together. And in that process of learning and growing, where people move from hearing the Word to building the Word within their life takes time, and that takes a lot of love. __ Well, think of the love God had in Christ Jesus to make salvation available to us, to make it possible for us to be born again of God’s spirit, to be filled with the holy spirit, to have a knowledge of His Word so we could rightly divide it and operate manifestations decently and in order that all of God’s people can be edified, built up by way of exhortation and comfort, to hear from God Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth.”
and:
“What a record. God so loved, Jesus Christ so loved, Paul and Silas so loved, that even though they had laid many stripes upon them, cast them into prison, they sang hymns, they praised the Lord, they prayed, and when this thing occurred, the jailor said, ‘Fellas, I want that stuff you got. I want to tap into the same thing you got. What must I do’ to be what? Saved! Right.”
and:
“God at work within us. Spiritually, He’s at work within us, that we may will and do his good pleasure. Now to know what is God’s pleasure, you must know God’s Word, and one of the things that is God’s pleasure is certainly to love with the love wherewith He loved, the tenderness with which He was tender, the joy with which He joyed, the blessings with which He blessed, the thanksgiving with which He lived. It is God at work within us, to will and to do what? His good pleasure. You see, God is building His love-life in you, His righteousness, His strength, His perfection, His goodness, His justice, His forgiveness. God is at work within you to build that within you so that you can share it with others.”
and most poignantly:
“Grow in grace. The word “grace” literally could be translated “love’s gifts.” Grace is always God, who is love, at work. Love at work is grace. It says “grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” It doesn’t say “grow in the knowledge of scripture.” The Way Ministry’s loaded with that stuff at times, but no love. We’ve got grads of the class on Power for Abundant Living, I wish I’d never taught them. All they do is prance around showing how much knowledge of the scriptures they have and make everybody else that hasn’t got that knowledge feel badly, if they can. Why my goodness, what did I ever teach them God’s Word for? It breaks my heart. It’s not the knowledge of the scripture you know, but the extent to which you know Him and walk in the love wherewith He loved. Nothing wrong with knowledge of the scripture, but it looks to me you haven’t got enough knowledge if you don’t apply it, and you ought to read a few verses that tell you how to put it on, how to love with the love wherewith He loved, how to forgive with the forgiveness for which He forgives, how to keep your tongue under control so you don’t go blabbing everything all the time. It’s an unruly evil, remember? The tongue. No man can tame it, so quit trying to tame it, let God tame it. He’s the only one that can do it, otherwise you’re always gonna have the running off of the tongue.”
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rascal
I sometimes wonder if the ONLY reason that we have a problem with folks who believe in the trinity is because we were TOLD that we had a problem with them ...told by a drunken, lecherous, lying, plagerising, adulterous son of a beech.
Seems to me that God may be more concerned with how we treat each other (ie love your neighbor) rather than being disgusted and ugly with each other over doctrinal differences.
My daughter was invited to a baptist church today....of course, my husband of course had snotty things to say about their beliefs...n general lack of spirituality....I mentioned that the folks I was going with were very strong chrsitians....and that God could work in that group with these spirit filled christians regardless of the specifics of trinity or non....every BIT as well as he did with us and our doctrinal errors....
When you look at what lies WE believed....and yet God was able to reach and teach us.....frankly, I think that our belief had as many or more heinous errors than just about any church I have visited since leaving.
I mean just LOOK at what he managed to accomplish for us in SPITE of our leaders being such amoral creeps!
Matter of fact, the ministers doctorate was real, and I doubt that all of the women belonging to him was one of the perks in HIS contract...Drunkeness is not a privelege....How much more could God work with a guy that didn`t have his senses befuddled in the manner of OUR leaders...be they trinitarian, librarian, liberitarian...
I think that this is yet another area of residual arrogance we carry over from twi and our being involved with very evil men.
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Mike
rascal,
Of course YOU are immune to great evil!
How'd you do it?
Where did you get such a great handle over the adversary?
How is it that you avoided the more subltle deadlier sins, like pride?
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johniam
Cynic: quote: Scripture attests that Jesus Christ is God
Yeah! TWISTED sister, er, scripture!
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rascal
I dunno where you see *pride* in me or or through my posts......but you are dead wrong ...why does this not suprise me?
As far as me being immune from evil...I have no idea what you are talking about.....immune from being evil? immune from attacks of evil?
I don`t embrace and indulge in evil if THATS what you mean...It is real easy not to hurt people, steal from them, seduce them in God`s name when you are a genuine christian....the counterfet are the ones making excuses for not living up to the standard that God describes in the bible.
I would describe myself as just plain humble, simply because the only thing that I now REALLY know ...is that I DON`T know
I understand that as ex wafers we may have a lot bigger sin and false doctrinal issues than most of the churches and trinitarians that we are piously pointing our fingers of judgement at.
Many times, I think that it is our own arrogance that blinds us.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Yeah Mike...I read your post, quoting Veepee. I read NOTHING that would indicate that wierwille knew the first thing about a relationship with Jesus Christ...I guess we just have different ideas about what a relationship with someone else consists of...
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dmiller
good posts, and good points -- rascal. I was leery of attending other churches at first, but after going to a few, I was able to see the "genuinity" (did I just invent a new word?)
;)--> of the folks in attendance. The only thing that kept me from checking out different groups earlier than I did, was that "air of superiority and arrogance" that you mentioned.
Baptist doctrine I don't totally get along with, but there are some great people I have met at the two Baptist churches I have gone to. Likewise -- I've met some great folks at both Messianic Jewish and Jehovah Witness meetings as well, that I have attended.
And I agree with you also chwester, when you said loving God and your neighbor is more important than correct doctrine. Vpw picked up a lot of various "ideas", "doctrines", "revelations", (call them what you will) -- and molded them all into what became pfal. Whether it was intended to happen or not, I (along with just about everyone else) felt superior to any and all other religious outfits, believing we had the "true Word" -- as revealed to us by our father-in-the-word, the mogfodat.
vpw used things from books that were by trinitarian authors, in my opinion, because there were "snippets" of info he could use to further his own purposes. Bullinger was a trinitarian, and look at all the "press" he got because of twi. Bullinger offers a lot of things, and vpw picked up on many of them, but he didn't acknowledge Bullinger's advocation of the trinity, or the deity of Christ. As I said on page one -- he was selective.
And Mike -- I pulled out my copy of the July/August 1985 Way Magazine. The last paragraph of page 12 states:
Not one mention of pfal, or mastering it. According to vpw, God's Word is the fountainhead of all truth, not pfal. After all -- his signature is right under that paragraph.
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Mike
dmiller,
I’m encouraged greatly to see someone returning to the originals. Keep up the good work.
In the paragraph you quoted Dr is referring to PFAL when he says God’s Word. I’ll explain soon.
***
The twice issued instructions that we (especially top leadership) were to master PFAL came not in the magazine articles, but in his last spoken teaching, which was taped.
This last teaching was lost, or misplaced for years. Most grads never knew about it.
I posted a thread on it, including the entire transcript of the tape here in the first days of my posting. It’s titled “Dr's Last Teaching - LOST for 17 Years!”
You can find this Last/Lost Teaching at: http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...42&m=3516027781
***
In many other places Dr instructs us to master PFAL, and in many other places he shows us that PFAL is the Word of God. I’ve posted several of each of these frequently here over the months.
God commissioned Dr to receive His Word by the process of spiritual revelation (along with a lot of 5-senses research work) like it had not been known since the first century if he would teach it to others. Dr did this in the PFAL writings, and so they are the reissued, differently formatted written Word. This why he told us many times to master them.
God is allowed to alter the format of His own Word, and we know He did so in switching from the format of His Word written in the stars to the more “down to earth” writings in stone, papyrus, parchment, and paper, starting in Moses' time.
While we certainly have no authority to do this, and the closing lines of the Book of Revelation say so, God is allowed to alter and adapt His own Word any way He pleases. Dr taught us this in the “Introduction to the Appendixes” in the back of RHST. Few saw it. One of the reasons Dr often told us we must master PFAL was that we acted a lot like Eve and got sloppy about our study of the class materials. We missed a lot of the revelation that was written.
***
When Dr refers to the Word of God, or God’s Word, he’s ultimately talking about the perfect spiritual understanding of God’s mind, heart and will that comes only from a relationship with God, and whereby He teaches directly to our minds. However our minds must be prepared for this. One of the first critical steps to arriving at this relationship is study in the 5-senses realm of the written Word.
In order to “constantly go to God’s Word” as you have quoted him we must FIRST constantly read the accurate written Word with our 5-senses, and then we will able to constantly go to the revelation God’s Word He gives us directly.
The King James Version of the Bible, is not the Bible, and we were taught this early in the class and in the PFAL book. It’s only approximately God’s Word. A translation and a version are the works of scholars, men who attempt to re-construct what they THINK the original said in modern English. Unfortunately, there are no authoritative translators from the original languages, and even worse, there are no original manuscripts from which translations can be made.
All we have of the original manuscripts are copies (fragments at that) made by a reprobate church that had fallen and rejected God, much like Israel did over and over again in the Old Testament. It’s part of the human condition to follow in the footsteps of Adam. It’s our sin nature.
We can see how Adam fell by following Eve outright. We can see how Eve went wrong by getting sloppy with the accurate Word she was given as she added one word, subtracted one word, and changed one word. This approximate Word she held may have been sufficient for many of life’s situations, but not when she came face to face with the devil. She may have had the doctrine approximately correct, but approximate wont cut it when the power is needed the most. Being face to face with the devil, she needed the power of the accurate Word of God, but she didn’t have it. Because of this great weakness she succumbed to the devil’s deceit. She got tricked.
Dr is telling us in that paragraph you quoted to constantly come to God’s accurate Word, not an approximation, so that we may not make the same mistake Eve made and allow it to get slightly altered in our minds.
Anything in our minds that is not refreshed by the original stimulation will slowly corrupt. It’s the way brains work. This is one of the very few things that brain scientists pretty well understand. Scientists who have mimicked brain circuits to produce artificial neural nets are able to train them up to perform very impressive tasks that regular computer programming can never accomplish. However, these artificial brains “forget” just like ours if stimulation other than the original training is regularly presented to them.
In the course of simply being alive, our 5-senses flood our brains with new stimulation constantly, literally ploughing over earlier training slowly but surely. In simple terms, if you put God’s Word in your mind on Monday, some small amount of it has leaked out or changed by Friday. One year later a substantial amount has leaked out or changed. The only way to overcome this is to constantly refresh our minds with God’s Word in it’s accurate form, which is the written form of PFAL.
It’s actually a good thing that God made our minds “leaky” this way, because otherwise there’d be no way to have painful memories diminish. Painful memories can and should leak out, and this is part of the healing process. If painful memories are constantly refreshed, like the way people who were hurt in the ministry are constantly talking about them here and being reminded of them by others here, then these memories will not leak out and they will stick around indefinitely. If the descriptions used to describe these memories get many different descriptions and angles, then the pain is enriched and distorted way out of proportion, instead of diminishing and vanishing.
I mourn for the people here who are constantly refreshing and enhancing and exaggerating the memories of people like excathedra and encouraging her to participate in the process. Though some think it’s loving to do this, they are hurting her, themselves, and many others in the process.
We can constantly come back to God’s Word in it’s accurate form as presented in PFAL and we will see this process produce a rich, deep, and everlasting grasp of truth and love.
Or we can try the devil’s counterfeit of this process and constantly come back to the pains of the past to allow them to get a rich, deep, and everlasting grip on our hearts.
We decide which way to go, the way of life or the way of death.
I wish more people would come back to the originals like you did with the magazine. As we constantly come back to God’s Word in PFAL we’re going to see the same kinds of things we saw when we were first exposed to these writings, and this time we there is no Corps to spoil it with forced spirituality and boring marketing techniques.
I think in this thread I just brought together the three threads I’ve been visiting lately. I just touched on pjroberge’s “Witnessing Jesus Christ vs. TWI or Piffle” an just before that I touched on Oakspear’s “Wierwille's Actions vs. His Words: Starting Over.”
Maybe I can take a little break as I’ve been constantly posting for days now.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Mike...when you're finished with your break...take your time...
Question...Since you are so obviously convinced of the greatness of pfal, what exactly are you doing to "master" it? I would assume that the educational value would, by necessity, be translated into practical application eventually.
Have you started teaching the class on your own yet, to others?
Do you have a home fellowship?
Are you "networking" with other fellowships?
Do you personally have a "gift ministry"?
I was just wondering what you did, besides post here, arguing with people that are either amused or annoyed or both, by your antics. I must say, if I were as convinced as you are of pfal, I would be doing something other than posting here with all these heretics. That is, unless it was only a "head trip" for me.
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TheInvisibleDan
Mike -
I think you should do a "PFAL Translation of the Bible", or "The Greatest Secret in the Planet Today!" Version,
which you can piece and stitch together from
scriptural citations from among Wierwille's works, including his "Literal Translation According to Usage" thingies, and even toss in footnotes from PFAL, or, if copyright issues arise, footnotes from Bullinger and Stiles.
If you genuinely believe what you believe - wouldn't it make better sense to take the next bold step in the evolution of your peculiar faith, and produce a compact version of a "PFAL"
Bible? Or perhaps even something of a "Companion Version" but one which incorporates Wierwillian notions.*
Such a version is what todays seemingly attention deficit generation calls for.
And Mike, I think you're the man to do it.
Now sign off and get crackin' on that version!
Danny
* and doesn't simply cross out Bullinger's name on the cover.
:P-->
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dmiller
Mike -- hey -- for your info, I only pulled out that magazine, because you cited a quote from it. I am not "returning to the originals" as you said. I (for one) do not mind your posts --it is a free country after all, and folks can beleive as they wish -- and you are no exception.
I have "paid my dues" in twi, and I have no wish to return. I will say that vpw did teach some good stuff, coupled with the fact that he has also taught some bad stuff. The fact that you care to hang on to his teachings is only admirable in the sense that your tenacity has roots.
I will be checking out the Last/ Lost Teaching to see what it says, but don't hold your breath. I don't expect much.
Doctor spun a good yarn, and we were all young when we first heard it. We are older, and wiser now. I have materials that go back to the mid '70s here -- and looking them over -- I see a decline in both the ministry, as well as the Word that was taught in twi. And that is just from what is in print. Looking at the "ministry", and it's "outreach" today (in physical terms), it is evident that even "mastering pfal", or the "originals" would not be a sufficient enough skid to stop the downhill slide they have embarked on, and are reaping the results of.
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TheEvan
Danny:...illustrated version complete with hokie charts & stuff from CF&S in Song of Solomon & Corinthians. (Must include one of Tick)
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TheInvisibleDan
ohhhh...this might be worth resurrecting "Washua Lo'Shanta" for
this little enterprise.
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Eagle
What I dislike most while with TWI was the idea that Trinitarians were "evil, possessed'" and in the words of LCM, had "homosexual spirits".
A bizarre conclusion.
Most trinitarians I met were kind, considerate, and were not as hateful. I think most ex-Way ministries still go with the no trinity idea of VPW, but they do not spout off like TWI on people that believe in the trinity.
I am not sure if TWI followers are still hateful to trinitarians or not.
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JustThinking
Eagle,
The attitude when I left almost two years ago had softened in it's outward appearance. It was more like a parent viewing a simple child:
"Those poor unlearned unbelievers. If only they would accept my obviously superior knowledge and sign my card after my awe-inspiring witnessing techniques."
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rascal
As long as you folks are including all of the works that vp felt had merrit, damn well better add out takes from the porn doggy flick...by all means, that must be preserved for all spiritual posterity.
A few questions, however...
Do verbal but unrecorded teachings count?
Then we could include abortion is ok ....women are required to service the mog ... physical violence is apropriate to keep ones spouse and children lined up with God`s word....children are an acceptable sacrafice if it means keeping yourself alive to spread God`s word...and last , but most important of all....ANYTHING is lawfull as long as you can spiritually *handle* it.....
Hmmm maybe we should have different sections ...the *written* word ...the transcripts from the audio recorded word...ummm will we be including the oral word, as long as we can get three to agree that he said it? oh ... and Will there be any references at all made to the *tattered remnants* that we all (including vp) used heretofor? Lessee that makes four books, unless mike wants to add a book with his interpretations of the true meanings of vpw`s works.
Whew .... It`s gonna be one hell of a religion that is being started...that would make four books to Mikes new and improved word of God........
P.s. Mike, ex`s and others accounts are only exagerated in your own mind and unacceptable to talk about because you cannot reconcile the evil this man visited upon our brothers and sisters and the man you want to believe was a mog.....she and others have done an enormous amount of good in allowing us a glimpse of the darkness that vpw harbored.
Anyone who wants to hide vp`s true spiritual nature by shutting up those who experienced his evil are amoral creeps as well.
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sadie
Mike..Just curious?? Why do you always bring up PFAL in every post that is started. If you want to continue in PFAL then please do so and try to keep it to yourself.
I enjoy reading all the post here but get so sick of reading about PFAL and having it chucked down my throat every time you post.
I find myself wondering why you are not a part of the only household that is in fellowship with God and why, if they do, reject your presence.
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oldiesman
Rascal said:
If this is true, then why all the intense, unrelenting wrath against Victor Paul?God is the Ultimate Heart Searcher, not humans like us. For you to speak so boldly of VPW's motives and "true spiritual nature", like you know all about them and that's the final word, indicates a vast inconsistency with the above statement, not to mention what the scriptures say about forgiveness, mercy, tenderness, kindness, gentleness; or just plain humility..
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rascal
Why the wrath? Why the friggin ANGER???? He HURT my brothers and sisters in Christ !!!!
It oughtta .... you off too....historically, God has taken a dim view of those who caused harm in his name...
However, I must say that it is your *unrelenting* defense of the ones responsible for the horrendous abuses and injustices wrought in Gods name that is probably what MY *unrelenting* wrath is directed at more so than anything else....lol.
What vpw did OUGHT to deeply offend and infuriate ANY sane human being ...how much MORE so any true christian?
I must say that I don`t believe my personal disgust with what that viscious amoral creep perpetrated in God`s name really has ANYTHING to do with my humbleness to God`s direction.
It is not MY opinion that condemns vpw and defines his true nature...I have simply pointed out in galations what GOD ALMIGHTY says is the true spiritual nature of one who committed the acts vpw did. Lol...sure bites dont` it?....read it...read what it says of liars, adulterers..ones who are filled with lascivious...wrath...strife...drunkness...read it and tell ME what God says.....
You don`t like it? wanna argue? think it`s an unfair assesment? After you have read the lists in galations of the actions of a man of the flesh verses man of the spirit and then whine to God...
I get very tired of hearing you making excuses for that wolf in sheep clothing....that devourer of God`s people... that destroyer of lives in order to make the stench of his legacy bearable, attempting to pass him off as a man of the spirit.....We were warned in the scriptures concerning those such as he....had we known of his actions back then....we might have recognised him for the theif that he was.......
*I* haven`t judge him harshly....the very scriptures that he himself lauded as the absolute end all be all final authority on everything pertaining to life and Godliness... ...convict him soundly with no help from me.
Once again though, you and Mike want to point the finger, attempting to make the innocent look bad, accusing yet again....this time of pride....mike wants to point the finger at ex and any others who speak up about abuse endured and claim that there is something wrong or bad about them for warning others of the EVIL that vpw and his bunch heartily embraced ..that these men were not what they led us to believe.. the only thing left in your arsenal now that the the evil has been exposed for all to see...is to try to discredit those who speak the truth in order to draw attention away from the sins of these evil men....too late...the cats outta the bag friend....the evil will never again be hidden.
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Don'tFenceMeIn
OM, why the anger?
Oh, well, it was JUST a CHILD who never got to be born because of the doctrine of devils teachings by vp.
naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. no use to get upset just because women believed that and did something they didn't believe in but was coerced into because it wasn't a human until it drew its first breath anyway. afterall, that's the WORD (not)
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rascal
Amen Fence...your child, my child...way too many of our friends children...thousands of our children never to be known and treasured ...the lost granchildren to never be spoiled ...all of the future generations and their enrichment to our lives, forever lost...yep, I`d have to say that is worthey of a little anger.
But hey, where IS our gratitude??? Praise GAWD almighty ..if it HADN`T been for old vpw....we mighta ended up as one oh dem dere REALLY screwed up trinitarians...shiver
Thanks again vp....blees yer heart!
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oldiesman
Don'tFenceMeIn:
The teaching that abortion is not murder, is not a doctrine of devils; and last time I checked, didn't force anybody to get their abortions. It did give folks free choice, which is a godly proposition.Those who had abortions were all adults, signing consent papers. VPW had nothing to do with those decisions. Please stop shifting blame to VPW. If you or anyone else made a bad choice, years ago, it's time to take responsibility for your actions.
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rascal
Your living in denial will never change the facts oldies,
VP`s amoral ungodly teaching just made the just made the manipulation easier to accept the decision that we were being forced to make.
It`s all as simple as abc boys n girls!
A) a vow made to be God must be kept or spiritual death a probability...
B) obediance to leadership necessary first foremost and always...
C) fetus is simply a bunch of paracitical cells preventing you from your duty...
D) trust us we have your spiritual wellbeing first and formost....
A+B+C+D = kill your child or die spiritually
Hey OUR oh so superior understanding of God`s word made us FREE to destroy our unborn babies when it interfered with our commitmnent to GOD! What freedome WE have compared to those EEEEEVIL trinitarians!!!!
Thankyou VP, I might have made some SERIOUS mistakes that I would regret later in life with all of those pesky children!
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Don'tFenceMeIn
From OM: VPW had nothing to do with those decisions.
He didn't teach gullible, young, trusting, people who bellieved he spoke for God with all of their inexperienced, inmature hearts that the fetus wasn't a human being until it drew its first breath and abortion was simply a CHOICE?????
MY mistake was believing he spoke for God and not checking the scriptures more thoroughly for myself such as when John the Baptist leaped in Elizabeth's womb and many other verses that say the baby is a person.
Accept responsibility for being deceived and doing something I aways up to that point believed was wrong? Yes, more than you or anyone else will ever know...which brings me back to why I post...not for myself, but for someone else who may be tempted to believe the same lie who still has time to see the web of deceit and escape.
Also, I think I see clearly now from your post what CES's beliefs are on this subject...a "godly proposition." Hummmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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