quote:Insisting on a sinless human to bring forth God's written Word will forever postpone receiving such truth.
I have never expected to receive the Word taught from a sinless person. I would be waiting until Christ returned. Has anyon else ever waited for this?
I think the REAL issues are the lies and deceit that followed veepee's life. VeePee presented himself as a man of God, allowed himself to be called the MOG, and made us think that he was tapped in to God like nobody else on earth had been since Jesus Christ himself.
VeePee's words didn't line up with his pseudo life-style. That is why I disregard him and his teachings. I don't give him undue credit.
After leaving twi, I learned that a minister has a responsibility to NOT present himself without flaws. They are human, and they are not superior to those who come to hear them teach. The church leaders need to be aware of their own weaknesses and need to grow and be open about their hurt, pain, failings, and humanity. Instead of "having it all together" and being insulated from confrontation and change, they are in a process of healing and opening up to their own safe people for support and accountability.
TWI has a terrible problem with leadership trying to appear flawless and never making mistakes or admitting them. It doesn't allow them to be human. It started with VeePee's ego. It didn't end there.
VeePee didn't spearhead the truth like he wanted us to believe. Truth comes from other sources also. The churches are not the evil places VeePee made them to be. They were just his competition.
Even IF vpw spoke correctly in all his doctrine,
(including how all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king),
it would be sensible to examine and review all his doctrine from a
healthy distance.
If it was all CORRECT, an objective examination would only
underscore its accuracy.
If any of it is ERROR, an objective examination allows it to be
Well, maybe Rafael was right. I do seem to have ignited a firestorm again.
Before I try to answer all these posts, please let me make some tangential remarks. I may not have the time to get to specific responses at all today, but I do want to.
I see that many are reading attitudes into my posts that I do not have and even find repugnant myself. I once dealt with this same kind misunderstanding with Abigail in the first month of my posting. With a few private e-mails we were able to straighten it all out. But I am reluctant to say the same things in public that I trusted her with. Not only are these things private and even shameful to me, but once posted, they would be the place the most cruel of posters would resort to, once they ran out of substantial material to debate me with. Many less cruel posters would also be tempted to attack me in my weak spots if I were to post them. I’ve posted a few tit bits of same to test the waters, and sure enough, the pariahs went straight for the blood, and they continue to once in a while.
I will bare a little more of my soul, and let the cruelest of you all be the first to pounce.
When I worked at HQ my heart was always in a broken state. Sure I had heard on the field of the licentious sex that was “available” but I never saw it. I couldn’t even get a date! The sexual revolution of the Sixties and Seventies was only for the pretty people, and a few not-so-pretty though very-cool exceptions, but it was definitely NOT for the nerds.
Exactly two times at HQ did I ever hear someone issue any of the licentious excuses that make up the 14 Appendixes in the Scheonheit paper, and it sickened me. Sure I wanted it, but I wanted it the “right” way (whatever that is). I had grown up with a conscience that would not allow casual sex. This has never changed, but I do recognize it as a mere habit pattern. It’s how I grew up and I haven’t shaken it much at all.
From what I have been able to gather from God’s Word, some aspects of my conscience habit pattern are right on, and some are questionable, and some are definitely devilish and harmful to me. I will not explain in public why I mentioned the last two categories.
A few years later, in my twig, I did some more research with a few grads, and debunked about 10 of those 14 excuses in the Scheonheit Appendixes, and this was about 5 years before he wrote that paper. I was (and still am) VERY much leaning away from the licentious end of the spectrum, and quite definitely towards the traditional “puritanical” end.
Even before I got into the Word, in college, I was appalled at the techniques many of my friends used to bag babes, even if they were initially unwilling. It worked for them, though, so I half-heartedly tried once with a willing woman. My conscience rebelled though, and I couldn’t continue. The shame I had every time I saw her is still with me today, when I allow my mind to picture that situation.
When I often say that I hurt for all those grads who were hurt in this capacity, I seriously downplay the intensity of that empathy pain I have. I do this to protect me, and to not give fuel to those who would love to burn me. But I’ve gotten tougher in these many months of posting against the cruel hearts of many posters who mistakenly think they left all that nastiness crap behind in TWI.
Some posters here might think that I support PFAL because I want to reinstate a system whereby I may engage in licentious sex. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The irony I have to deal with is intense here. More than most people I have felt the pain of that kind of system.
Has anyone here ever thought about the hurts that happened to men in TWI’s sex system? Men are not prone to complain about these things, because when they do they are ridiculed. Although I tried to stimulate a few thoughts along these lines with a few sparse lines here and there, no on has picked up on them.
It is only with the greatest persuasion of my heavenly Father that I am able to support PFAL. I feel the tug to hate Dr more than most of you, but I also have God’s vote to consider. Most of you never were hurt at all, and now you get your self esteem thrills at taking up the cause of someone else’s hurts. I was hurt, damn it!
I do not downplay any hurt that happened. My own personal hurt continues to this day. But I’ve learned to compartmentalize these things. I compare the relative values of things unemotionally. When there is a desperate war going on, people learn to shelve emotion when it hurts the cause. Grieving is saved until after the war, because the war effort for the many is more important than the relatively few lost lives.
I did NOT say that the few were unimportant, I said there was something EVEN MORE important.
I have been persuaded, against my deepest conscience, against my emotional habit patterns, that God did bring forth His Word in written form in modern English in PFAL.
I will never be able to convince anyone here of this. You’re all so focused on the 5-senses evidence and perspective that there’s nothing my words could ever do to persuade any of you.
The reason I post is to help prepare you all to hear that still small voice of the True God. He’s trying to say “Calm down. It’s all right. I see all issues in all hearts and I will even all the scores. Now, come back to my Word that I brought to you and master it. When you master the PFAL writings you will grow up to that full stature of Christ that I yearn for you to be.”
quote:What is the fruit produced by wierwille's teachings?...
Here's some:
+ Folks getting born again, understanding that impact and being certain, to know that you know that you know you're heaven bound, no power from hell can stop you from going
[uh, this is a common doctrine among Christians. Are you claiming vpw was unique in this?]
+ Folks knowing that Jesus Christ's death and suffering was the complete payment for man's sins
[This is a common teaching among Christians. Are you saying vpw was unique in this?]
+ Folks understanding more about the bible, believing it's accuracy and integrity
[ This is not uncommon among Christians-many do Bible teachings and studies.]
+ Folks understanding the difference between salvation by grace, and salvation by works
[ Turned on a television sometime? This is a common doctrine among Christians. ]
+ Folks understanding from scripture what their rights (5 sonship rights) and responsibilities (preaching the Word), are in Christ
[ First, you can't show "5 sonship rights" from the Bible that you just claimed was a big deal. Second, having rights in Christ-and corresponding responsibilities- again, are not uncommon among Christians.]
+ Folks understanding from scripture what it means to manifest holy spirit
[ Not something taught in EVERY church, but taught in many places, as seen by BG Leonard, JE Stiles, et al. ]
+ Folks understanding from scripture that the dead are not alive now
[ Taught in some places. Admittedly, not told in most. ]
+ Folks understanding from scripture the differences between "son of God" and "God the Son", and the various implications of both
[ That evil Trinity again, cause of all the world's ills.]
+ Folks understanding about Jesus Christ our Passover, Jesus Christ our Promised Seed
[ Understanding WHAT about him? That he paid the full price? That he fulfilled the promises? Those, again, are common. Some of the details vary. ]
+ Folks understanding, respecting and appreciating various other very good bible teachers, such as B.G. Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger, Kenyon, Jones, etc. etc. ...
[ Let's see... other than Bullinger, you actually heard vpw teach we should read these other writers? He BURIED the names of Leonard, Stiles, and Jones, and pretended not to lift entire paragraphs from Kenyon and others. ]
:)-->
Ok, so what's the tradeoff?
No Trinity, dead are not alive,
in exchange for everything ELSE that came along with vpw....
Me,
if I had to choose,
I'd rather teach both doctrines, but not have to worry about lies,
deception and rape by leadership, than face the fabled
"good old days" when leadership wasn't caught plagiarizing and
A lot of the benefits of Wierwille's ministry and teachings are common Christian themes today .. that's true. But back in the early 70's, I didn't see those things as common at all. Coming from a Roman Catholic background they certainly weren't.
I remember VPW saying the Way Ministry wouldn't be needed if the organized churches of the day were teaching this stuff. I believe that to be true, for if the RC church had been teaching some of the doctrines that Wierwille was, I probably wouldn't have been attracted to twi in the first place. ESPECIALLY salvation by grace, speaking in tongues, the integrity of the scriptures, etc. etc.
The fact that the benefits and godly fruits of Wierwilles teachings are common in Christian circles today, doesn't diminish the impact it had on us folks who needed to hear it. The godly fruits of Wierwilles teachings are a part of history and there's still some of us around who appreciate its effects. I don't throw that out because of Wierwilles sins.
And the fact that you confirm that a lot of these benefits are common benefits of Christendom today, only confirms that Wierwille was right on and a blessing, on many significant issues ...
[WordWolf in italics for once for variety's sake.]
quote:Originally posted by Mike:
Well, maybe Rafael was right. I do seem to have ignited a firestorm again.
Before I try to answer all these posts, please let me make some tangential remarks. I may not have the time to get to specific responses at all today, but I do want to.
I see that many are reading attitudes into my posts that I do not have and even find repugnant myself.
[No, we quoted you. That's what you said. ]
I once dealt with this same kind misunderstanding with Abigail in the first month of my posting. With a few private e-mails we were able to straighten it all out. But I am reluctant to say the same things in public that I trusted her with. Not only are these things private and even shameful to me, but once posted, they would be the place the most cruel of posters would resort to, once they ran out of substantial material to debate me with. Many less cruel posters would also be tempted to attack me in my weak spots if I were to post them. I’ve posted a few tit bits of same to test the waters, and sure enough, the pariahs went straight for the blood, and they continue to once in a while.
[ Translation: "If I told you what was really on my mind, you would jump on it, you evil people you." ]
I will bare a little more of my soul, and let the cruelest of you all be the first to pounce.
[ Translation: "If you criticize me, you are an evil, nasty meanie. No real Christian could disagree with me." ]
When I worked at HQ my heart was always in a broken state. Sure I had heard on the field of the licentious sex that was “available” but I never saw it. I couldn’t even get a date! The sexual revolution of the Sixties and Seventies was only for the pretty people, and a few not-so-pretty though very-cool exceptions, but it was definitely NOT for the nerds.
Exactly two times at HQ did I ever hear someone issue any of the licentious excuses that make up the 14 Appendixes in the Scheonheit paper, and it sickened me. Sure I wanted it, but I wanted it the “right” way (whatever that is). I had grown up with a conscience that would not allow casual sex. This has never changed, but I do recognize it as a mere habit pattern.
[ "Mere habit pattern" or "proper moral character"? ]
It’s how I grew up and I haven’t shaken it much at all.
From what I have been able to gather from God’s Word, some aspects of my conscience habit pattern are right on, and some are questionable, and some are definitely devilish and harmful to me. I will not explain in public why I mentioned the last two categories.
A few years later, in my twig, I did some more research with a few grads, and debunked about 10 of those 14 excuses in the Scheonheit Appendixes, and this was about 5 years before he wrote that paper. I was (and still am) VERY much leaning away from the licentious end of the spectrum, and quite definitely towards the traditional “puritanical” end.
Even before I got into the Word, in college, I was appalled at the techniques many of my friends used to bag babes, even if they were initially unwilling. It worked for them, though, so I half-heartedly tried once with a willing woman. My conscience rebelled though, and I couldn’t continue. The shame I had every time I saw her is still with me today, when I allow my mind to picture that situation.
[ Translation: "I have a conscience, and it troubles me that I still feel 'right' and 'wrong' at times." ]
When I often say that I hurt for all those grads who were hurt in this capacity, I seriously downplay the intensity of that empathy pain I have. I do this to protect me, and to not give fuel to those who would love to burn me. But I’ve gotten tougher in these many months of posting against the cruel hearts of many posters who mistakenly think they left all that nastiness crap behind in TWI.
[ Translation: "Every one who disagrees with me thinks they're holy, but they're really acting out of cruelty, not sound doctrine." ]
Some posters here might think that I support PFAL because I want to reinstate a system whereby I may engage in licentious sex. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The irony I have to deal with is intense here. More than most people I have felt the pain of that kind of system.
[ No, I'll leave that one alone.]
Has anyone here ever thought about the hurts that happened to men in TWI’s sex system? Men are not prone to complain about these things, because when they do they are ridiculed. Although I tried to stimulate a few thoughts along these lines with a few sparse lines here and there, no on has picked up on them.
_It is only with the greatest persuasion of my heavenly Father that I am able to support PFAL. I feel the tug to hate Dr more than most of you, but I also have God’s vote to consider. Most of you never were hurt at all, and now you get your self esteem thrills at taking up the cause of someone else’s hurts. I was hurt, damn it!_
I do not downplay any hurt that happened.
[ Mike apparently hasn't read his own posts, starting with his initial posts on arrival. Even now he's accusing everyone who speaks up as doing so unjustly. ]
My own personal hurt continues to this day. But I’ve learned to compartmentalize these things. I compare the relative values of things unemotionally. When there is a desperate war going on, people learn to shelve emotion when it hurts the cause. Grieving is saved until after the war, because the war effort for the many is more important than the relatively few lost lives.
I did NOT say that the few were unimportant, I said there was something EVEN MORE important.
I have been persuaded, against my deepest conscience, against my emotional habit patterns, that God did bring forth His Word in written form in modern English in PFAL.
I will never be able to convince anyone here of this. You’re all so focused on the 5-senses evidence and perspective that there’s nothing my words could ever do to persuade any of you.
Translation: "You reject my doctrine of a God-breathed pfal and a shattered Bible because you're all such lousy Christians with no spiritual perception." ]
============
The reason I post is to help prepare you all to hear that still small voice of the True God. He’s trying to say _“Calm down. It’s all right. I see all issues in all hearts and I will even all the scores. Now, come back to my Word that I brought to you and master it. When you master the PFAL writings you will grow up to that full stature of Christ that I yearn for you to be.” _
[Ahh, the payoff. I speak of hurts to the heart and compassion, so now come "master" pfal. ]
[ BTW, I think we can now see some of the reasons why it's no big deal vpw abused his power. Supposedly, any man would have abused power....at least, I would have abused it....at least, I THINK I would have abused it.....it would have been nice to HAVE some power....]
[ In brutal honesty, Mike, despite everything you've said before this, I am doubtful you would have raped your way thru the ranks if offered the SAME chance vpw made for himself. In that respect, I think you proceeded from a core of moral fiber that was superior to vpw's. ]
A lot of the benefits of Wierwille's ministry and teachings are common Christian themes today .. that's true. But back in the early 70's, I didn't see those things as common at all. Coming from a Roman Catholic background they certainly weren't.
I remember VPW saying the Way Ministry wouldn't be needed if the organized churches of the day were teaching this stuff. I believe that to be true, for if the RC church had been teaching some of the doctrines that Wierwille was, I probably wouldn't have been attracted to twi in the first place. ESPECIALLY salvation by grace, speaking in tongues, the integrity of the scriptures, etc. etc.
The fact that the benefits and godly fruits of Wierwilles teachings are common in Christian circles today, doesn't diminish the impact it had on us folks who needed to hear it. The godly fruits of Wierwilles teachings are a part of history and there's still some of us around who appreciate its effects. I don't throw that out because of Wierwilles sins.
And the fact that you confirm that a lot of these benefits are common benefits of Christendom today, only confirms that Wierwille was right on and a blessing, on many significant issues ...
:)-->
You missed my point completely.
Did we need to be subject to the twi framework, error and abuses
in order to reap the benefits of Christian doctrine?
From what I've seen, ounce for ounce, we would have benefited
FAR more from an expansion of BG Leonard's work into the United
States, rather than have someone waste the time to repackage it
and the man-hours to add an elaborate organizational framework to
it. Heck, rather than just say "denominations are wrong!", we
might have motivated the denominations to change from within.
A LOT more work could have gotten done if a lot of the frippery
had not been demanded. Even then, from what I've seen, vpw
choked a lot of legitimate Christian growth on both coasts by
demanding Heefner and Doop step down so he could run things.
It should also be noted, Oldiesman, that your failure to observe these Christian doctrines and qualities in the 1970s does not mean that they were not present. It only means that you did not observe them.
Giving Wierwille credit for the presence of these Christian qualities today is ridiculous. They were present long before Wierwille and will continue to be so long after his name and memory are forgotten.
I very rarely respond to Mike's posts or read his teachings because, well, he believes PFAL was revelation from God to us and I feel, a man (Mike) convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
That said, this is probably the first time I have seen Mike open up and share his personal life, heart, and feelings, and the hurt he has had, and still has that he keeps compartmentalized deep down. I appreciate it, because for once, he has allowed us to see his humanity - something we all have in common.
Mike may have different beliefs than most, but, at his core, he is human, he has morals, he has a conscience, he has a heart, he hurts, he feels, and is no different than any other person.
quote:Did we need to be subject to the twi framework, error and abuses in order to reap the benefits of Christian doctrine?
I really don't know that answer, but, it was twi that was the group that taught the benefits of Christian doctrine, when I really needed it.
quote: From what I've seen, ounce for ounce, we would have benefited FAR more from an expansion of BG Leonard's work into the United
States, rather than have someone waste the time to repackage it and the man-hours to add an elaborate organizational framework to
it. Heck, rather than just say "denominations are wrong!", we might have motivated the denominations to change from within.
Judging from the way folks are in general, that might have been next to impossible. It's very very hard to change minds, especially those minds running organizations. People at the top tend to support and perpetuate the accepted traditions.
quote:A LOT more work could have gotten done if a lot of the frippery had not been demanded. Even then, from what I've seen, vpw choked a lot of legitimate Christian growth on both coasts by demanding Heefner and Doop step down so he could run things.
Whether Heefner and Doop could have done a better job overall is speculative. We don't know what would have happened. Just a general observation: they weren't thrown out of the ministry by Wierwille's actions, weren't marked and avoided; just removed from their positions. I think they remained in some way after that, didn't they? At least they could have. Lots of good folks left. What about Dave Anderson? He left in 1973. We don't know what "would have" happened if these things didn't happen; all we could do is communicate and bear witness to the things that DID happen.
You've demonstrated that there are at least some portions of Wierwille's teaching that you have rejected. Although you don't go along with my "tear it all down and start all over again" theory, you have made decisions about what you would keep and what you would retain.
How did you make those decisions? Have you looked at every aspect of Wierwillism, or did you leave some stones unturned?
quote:It should also be noted, Oldiesman, that your failure to observe these Christian doctrines and qualities in the 1970s does not mean that they were not present. It only means that you did not observe them.
True. But ask yourself this: had folks like me, and others, already been observing and benefitting with these things, would we have needed or wanted to get involved with twi when we did?
quote:Giving Wierwille credit for the presence of these Christian qualities today is ridiculous. They were present long before Wierwille and will continue to be so long after his name and memory are forgotten. Please correct me if I'm misreading you.
The teachings were not present in my life before Wierwille's influence, so I say he's a part of influencing, teaching, expounding these excellent Christian teachings and doctrines to me. ...
An observation: some folks think its wrong that positive godly experiences of twi be remembered and shared, but instead it's better to have all those goodies supplanted by the abuse and evils. But I believe we should just state it as it was ... both good and bad.
The teachings were not present in my life before Wierwille's influence, so I say he's a part of influencing, teaching, expounding these excellent Christian teachings and doctrines to me. ...
An observation: some folks think its wrong that positive godly experiences of twi be remembered and shared, but instead it's better to have all those goodies supplanted by the abuse and evils. But I believe we should just state it as it was ... both good and bad.
:)-->
Good point, in that Oldies is talking about his own experience. The teachings that had been around for so long were not taught to him before his involvement in TWI. Just as some of the ideas that are part of basic Christianity and supposedly part of my chuch's doctrine were never taught to me before I became involved in TWI.
Yes...the good and the bad...not discounting either, no matter how good the good seems, or how bad the bad. I think we should try to put ourselves in the other's shoes in both cases.
quote:From Oldiesman: The teachings were not present in my life before Wierwille's influence, so I say he's a part of influencing, teaching, expounding these excellent Christian teachings and doctrines to me. ...
From Raf: That's what I'm saying. Speak for yourself. You made it sound, perhaps inadvertently, that Wierwille was responsible for introducing these qualities to Christianity. Or maybe I was just misreading you.
An observation: some folks think its wrong that positive godly experiences of twi be remembered and shared, but instead it's better to have all those goodies supplanted by the abuse and evils. But I believe we should just state it as it was ... both good and bad.
From Raf: I agree.
Mike,
This is real simple. I don't trust you. You say you were "hurt." Delicious. How? Wierwille wasn't nice to you? Awww, how sad. At least he didn't drug you and have his way with you.
I am more repulsed by the evil you spew to justify his abuse of our sisters in Christ than any vague abstraction of "hurt" you felt at not being appreciated by the man you idolized.
I do feel great sympathy for the things you lost in your life, some of which you have shared and some of which has been wrongly and inappropriately thrown in your face by people who know you personally. You don't know how many private e-mails I've sent to moderators and others here indicating that something said to you was a cheap shot. I won't say how many times that's happened, but it has.
Nonetheless, the key here is the one thing I responded to in your post: not that you have a basic understanding of what the Bible says about sex; not that you have or have not experienced a certain amount of pain in your life, but that you claim not to downplay any hurt that happened in TWI.
You DO downplay such hurt. You do it when you claim Wierwille resisted more than he succumbed, as though HE were the one being sought after by miles of willing seductresses. I don't care how much Bible he taught (for which I am grateful), he was a predator who abused our sisters in Christ for his own lusts.
Go ahead, portray me as cruel and heartless. Coming from you, I consider that high praise, because I do not respect your opinion or assessment of ANY of the motives of my heart.
Re my above post, it is the reason I asked Mike the question I did in my earlier post. It is bad enough to have control of your own life taken away (e.g.as was done to me in my deprogramming), so I couple my experience with trying, however partially I can succeed, with losing also control of your body as well, as what happens in cases of rape and sexual abuse.
Because this has to be so horrible and event...and charge as well...my standards for accepting events do not include someone talking about someone else's experiences, or someone's distant and anonymous account. But my standards also do not include downplaying, whether directly or by implication, the significance of such horror anyone has gone through.
You've demonstrated that there are at least some portions of Wierwille's teaching that you have rejected. Although you don't go along with my "tear it all down and start all over again" theory, you have made decisions about what you would keep and what you would retain.
How did you make those decisions? Have you looked at every aspect of Wierwillism, or did you leave some stones unturned?
Those decisions were made after time, and after proving them wrong. It's so obvious to me that tithing for prosperity, as espoused by VPW, is error. Prosperity doesn't hinge on tithing. It's so obvious to me that "the law of believing" isn't a law like gravity, which is what VPW was espousing.
Regarding other doctrines more common, as we learned from Wordwolf's response to me, a lot of Wierwille's doctrines are common themes in Christendom today ... so for me to reject those themes, I'd have to reject Christianity, which I have not done ...
If you're asking me to question Christianity itself, no, I haven't done that, but I haven't found anything better either. Do you have any suggestions?
I don't downplay the hurt others feel at all in my heart.
I do try to dodge discussion of it because I think it adds to the hurt.
What you see is me UP-PLAYING the more important things. In relative terms, this LOOKS like downplaying of the hurt.
This is difficult to see for those who don't want to hear my heart and only oppose it, and who are all charged up with outrage and looking for villains to prosecute.
There are more important things than the proper conduct of sex. We live in a culture that lauds female sexuality to the sky in many many ways, far beyond it's rightful place. I do not agree with this, and again it LOOKS like I'm a heartless downplayer of the hurt to those who buy the uppermost position and ultimate priority of femininity.
I'm not downplaying the hurt, just looking for the best way to help those hurting. This stuff weighs down much more heavily than I let on. I simply don't want to focus on it nor magnify the hurt.
It's the introduction of light that dispels darkness.
I think one can magnify a hurt by mentioning it and then saying it is less important than other issues, whereas it might be better just to discuss those other issues without the comparison.
On the other hand, acknowledging the horror of someone's hurt with the best understanding you can muster, just maybe could lead to a little healing.
You DID down play it ...liar! You must dismiss the significance of the abuse in order to ignore your concience and the evidence presented that vpw was not a man of the spirit.
You didn`t answere my question mike, what if it was your teen aged body that wierwille demanded?
Yeah I thought so, it`s not to bad as long as someone ELSE had to pay the price.
I agree. However, that approach is only the initial step in healing. It's been done and done again, and again, and again here and in many other places and in private.
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WordWolf
Even IF vpw spoke correctly in all his doctrine,
(including how all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king),
it would be sensible to examine and review all his doctrine from a
healthy distance.
If it was all CORRECT, an objective examination would only
underscore its accuracy.
If any of it is ERROR, an objective examination allows it to be
revealed to the seeker.
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Mike
Well, maybe Rafael was right. I do seem to have ignited a firestorm again.
Before I try to answer all these posts, please let me make some tangential remarks. I may not have the time to get to specific responses at all today, but I do want to.
I see that many are reading attitudes into my posts that I do not have and even find repugnant myself. I once dealt with this same kind misunderstanding with Abigail in the first month of my posting. With a few private e-mails we were able to straighten it all out. But I am reluctant to say the same things in public that I trusted her with. Not only are these things private and even shameful to me, but once posted, they would be the place the most cruel of posters would resort to, once they ran out of substantial material to debate me with. Many less cruel posters would also be tempted to attack me in my weak spots if I were to post them. I’ve posted a few tit bits of same to test the waters, and sure enough, the pariahs went straight for the blood, and they continue to once in a while.
I will bare a little more of my soul, and let the cruelest of you all be the first to pounce.
When I worked at HQ my heart was always in a broken state. Sure I had heard on the field of the licentious sex that was “available” but I never saw it. I couldn’t even get a date! The sexual revolution of the Sixties and Seventies was only for the pretty people, and a few not-so-pretty though very-cool exceptions, but it was definitely NOT for the nerds.
Exactly two times at HQ did I ever hear someone issue any of the licentious excuses that make up the 14 Appendixes in the Scheonheit paper, and it sickened me. Sure I wanted it, but I wanted it the “right” way (whatever that is). I had grown up with a conscience that would not allow casual sex. This has never changed, but I do recognize it as a mere habit pattern. It’s how I grew up and I haven’t shaken it much at all.
From what I have been able to gather from God’s Word, some aspects of my conscience habit pattern are right on, and some are questionable, and some are definitely devilish and harmful to me. I will not explain in public why I mentioned the last two categories.
A few years later, in my twig, I did some more research with a few grads, and debunked about 10 of those 14 excuses in the Scheonheit Appendixes, and this was about 5 years before he wrote that paper. I was (and still am) VERY much leaning away from the licentious end of the spectrum, and quite definitely towards the traditional “puritanical” end.
Even before I got into the Word, in college, I was appalled at the techniques many of my friends used to bag babes, even if they were initially unwilling. It worked for them, though, so I half-heartedly tried once with a willing woman. My conscience rebelled though, and I couldn’t continue. The shame I had every time I saw her is still with me today, when I allow my mind to picture that situation.
When I often say that I hurt for all those grads who were hurt in this capacity, I seriously downplay the intensity of that empathy pain I have. I do this to protect me, and to not give fuel to those who would love to burn me. But I’ve gotten tougher in these many months of posting against the cruel hearts of many posters who mistakenly think they left all that nastiness crap behind in TWI.
Some posters here might think that I support PFAL because I want to reinstate a system whereby I may engage in licentious sex. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The irony I have to deal with is intense here. More than most people I have felt the pain of that kind of system.
Has anyone here ever thought about the hurts that happened to men in TWI’s sex system? Men are not prone to complain about these things, because when they do they are ridiculed. Although I tried to stimulate a few thoughts along these lines with a few sparse lines here and there, no on has picked up on them.
It is only with the greatest persuasion of my heavenly Father that I am able to support PFAL. I feel the tug to hate Dr more than most of you, but I also have God’s vote to consider. Most of you never were hurt at all, and now you get your self esteem thrills at taking up the cause of someone else’s hurts. I was hurt, damn it!
I do not downplay any hurt that happened. My own personal hurt continues to this day. But I’ve learned to compartmentalize these things. I compare the relative values of things unemotionally. When there is a desperate war going on, people learn to shelve emotion when it hurts the cause. Grieving is saved until after the war, because the war effort for the many is more important than the relatively few lost lives.
I did NOT say that the few were unimportant, I said there was something EVEN MORE important.
I have been persuaded, against my deepest conscience, against my emotional habit patterns, that God did bring forth His Word in written form in modern English in PFAL.
I will never be able to convince anyone here of this. You’re all so focused on the 5-senses evidence and perspective that there’s nothing my words could ever do to persuade any of you.
The reason I post is to help prepare you all to hear that still small voice of the True God. He’s trying to say “Calm down. It’s all right. I see all issues in all hearts and I will even all the scores. Now, come back to my Word that I brought to you and master it. When you master the PFAL writings you will grow up to that full stature of Christ that I yearn for you to be.”
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Raf
Bull.
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Mike
Raf,
You have the empathy of a Craig Martindale.
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WordWolf
Originally posted by Oldiesman.
[WordWolf's comments in boldface as usual.]
Ok, so what's the tradeoff?
No Trinity, dead are not alive,
in exchange for everything ELSE that came along with vpw....
Me,
if I had to choose,
I'd rather teach both doctrines, but not have to worry about lies,
deception and rape by leadership, than face the fabled
"good old days" when leadership wasn't caught plagiarizing and
raping.
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Raf
You're one to talk.
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oldiesman
Wordwolf,
A lot of the benefits of Wierwille's ministry and teachings are common Christian themes today .. that's true. But back in the early 70's, I didn't see those things as common at all. Coming from a Roman Catholic background they certainly weren't.
I remember VPW saying the Way Ministry wouldn't be needed if the organized churches of the day were teaching this stuff. I believe that to be true, for if the RC church had been teaching some of the doctrines that Wierwille was, I probably wouldn't have been attracted to twi in the first place. ESPECIALLY salvation by grace, speaking in tongues, the integrity of the scriptures, etc. etc.
The fact that the benefits and godly fruits of Wierwilles teachings are common in Christian circles today, doesn't diminish the impact it had on us folks who needed to hear it. The godly fruits of Wierwilles teachings are a part of history and there's still some of us around who appreciate its effects. I don't throw that out because of Wierwilles sins.
And the fact that you confirm that a lot of these benefits are common benefits of Christendom today, only confirms that Wierwille was right on and a blessing, on many significant issues ...
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WordWolf
Posted by Mike.
[WordWolf in italics for once for variety's sake.]
[Ahh, the payoff. I speak of hurts to the heart and compassion, so now come "master" pfal. ]
[ BTW, I think we can now see some of the reasons why it's no big deal vpw abused his power. Supposedly, any man would have abused power....at least, I would have abused it....at least, I THINK I would have abused it.....it would have been nice to HAVE some power....]
[ In brutal honesty, Mike, despite everything you've said before this, I am doubtful you would have raped your way thru the ranks if offered the SAME chance vpw made for himself. In that respect, I think you proceeded from a core of moral fiber that was superior to vpw's. ]
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WordWolf
You missed my point completely.
Did we need to be subject to the twi framework, error and abuses
in order to reap the benefits of Christian doctrine?
From what I've seen, ounce for ounce, we would have benefited
FAR more from an expansion of BG Leonard's work into the United
States, rather than have someone waste the time to repackage it
and the man-hours to add an elaborate organizational framework to
it. Heck, rather than just say "denominations are wrong!", we
might have motivated the denominations to change from within.
A LOT more work could have gotten done if a lot of the frippery
had not been demanded. Even then, from what I've seen, vpw
choked a lot of legitimate Christian growth on both coasts by
demanding Heefner and Doop step down so he could run things.
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Raf
It should also be noted, Oldiesman, that your failure to observe these Christian doctrines and qualities in the 1970s does not mean that they were not present. It only means that you did not observe them.
Giving Wierwille credit for the presence of these Christian qualities today is ridiculous. They were present long before Wierwille and will continue to be so long after his name and memory are forgotten.
Please correct me if I'm misreading you.
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Sunesis
I very rarely respond to Mike's posts or read his teachings because, well, he believes PFAL was revelation from God to us and I feel, a man (Mike) convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
That said, this is probably the first time I have seen Mike open up and share his personal life, heart, and feelings, and the hurt he has had, and still has that he keeps compartmentalized deep down. I appreciate it, because for once, he has allowed us to see his humanity - something we all have in common.
Mike may have different beliefs than most, but, at his core, he is human, he has morals, he has a conscience, he has a heart, he hurts, he feels, and is no different than any other person.
Thank you for your sharing Mike.
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oldiesman
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Oakspear
Oldies:
You've demonstrated that there are at least some portions of Wierwille's teaching that you have rejected. Although you don't go along with my "tear it all down and start all over again" theory, you have made decisions about what you would keep and what you would retain.
How did you make those decisions? Have you looked at every aspect of Wierwillism, or did you leave some stones unturned?
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oldiesman
Raf:
True. But ask yourself this: had folks like me, and others, already been observing and benefitting with these things, would we have needed or wanted to get involved with twi when we did? The teachings were not present in my life before Wierwille's influence, so I say he's a part of influencing, teaching, expounding these excellent Christian teachings and doctrines to me. ...An observation: some folks think its wrong that positive godly experiences of twi be remembered and shared, but instead it's better to have all those goodies supplanted by the abuse and evils. But I believe we should just state it as it was ... both good and bad.
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Mike
Sunesis,
Thank you greatly!
:)-->
I was beginning to think I made a big mistake after Raf's immediate stomping,
and WW's cynical hashing.
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Lifted Up
Good point, in that Oldies is talking about his own experience. The teachings that had been around for so long were not taught to him before his involvement in TWI. Just as some of the ideas that are part of basic Christianity and supposedly part of my chuch's doctrine were never taught to me before I became involved in TWI.
Yes...the good and the bad...not discounting either, no matter how good the good seems, or how bad the bad. I think we should try to put ourselves in the other's shoes in both cases.
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Raf
Mike,
This is real simple. I don't trust you. You say you were "hurt." Delicious. How? Wierwille wasn't nice to you? Awww, how sad. At least he didn't drug you and have his way with you.
I am more repulsed by the evil you spew to justify his abuse of our sisters in Christ than any vague abstraction of "hurt" you felt at not being appreciated by the man you idolized.
I do feel great sympathy for the things you lost in your life, some of which you have shared and some of which has been wrongly and inappropriately thrown in your face by people who know you personally. You don't know how many private e-mails I've sent to moderators and others here indicating that something said to you was a cheap shot. I won't say how many times that's happened, but it has.
Nonetheless, the key here is the one thing I responded to in your post: not that you have a basic understanding of what the Bible says about sex; not that you have or have not experienced a certain amount of pain in your life, but that you claim not to downplay any hurt that happened in TWI.
You DO downplay such hurt. You do it when you claim Wierwille resisted more than he succumbed, as though HE were the one being sought after by miles of willing seductresses. I don't care how much Bible he taught (for which I am grateful), he was a predator who abused our sisters in Christ for his own lusts.
Go ahead, portray me as cruel and heartless. Coming from you, I consider that high praise, because I do not respect your opinion or assessment of ANY of the motives of my heart.
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Lifted Up
Re my above post, it is the reason I asked Mike the question I did in my earlier post. It is bad enough to have control of your own life taken away (e.g.as was done to me in my deprogramming), so I couple my experience with trying, however partially I can succeed, with losing also control of your body as well, as what happens in cases of rape and sexual abuse.
Because this has to be so horrible and event...and charge as well...my standards for accepting events do not include someone talking about someone else's experiences, or someone's distant and anonymous account. But my standards also do not include downplaying, whether directly or by implication, the significance of such horror anyone has gone through.
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Lifted Up
This was a double post as I clicked the quote instead of edit button. Was trying to get rid of this one...so ignore this.
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oldiesman
Oakspear:
Those decisions were made after time, and after proving them wrong. It's so obvious to me that tithing for prosperity, as espoused by VPW, is error. Prosperity doesn't hinge on tithing. It's so obvious to me that "the law of believing" isn't a law like gravity, which is what VPW was espousing.Regarding other doctrines more common, as we learned from Wordwolf's response to me, a lot of Wierwille's doctrines are common themes in Christendom today ... so for me to reject those themes, I'd have to reject Christianity, which I have not done ...
If you're asking me to question Christianity itself, no, I haven't done that, but I haven't found anything better either. Do you have any suggestions?
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Mike
Raf,
I don't downplay the hurt others feel at all in my heart.
I do try to dodge discussion of it because I think it adds to the hurt.
What you see is me UP-PLAYING the more important things. In relative terms, this LOOKS like downplaying of the hurt.
This is difficult to see for those who don't want to hear my heart and only oppose it, and who are all charged up with outrage and looking for villains to prosecute.
There are more important things than the proper conduct of sex. We live in a culture that lauds female sexuality to the sky in many many ways, far beyond it's rightful place. I do not agree with this, and again it LOOKS like I'm a heartless downplayer of the hurt to those who buy the uppermost position and ultimate priority of femininity.
I'm not downplaying the hurt, just looking for the best way to help those hurting. This stuff weighs down much more heavily than I let on. I simply don't want to focus on it nor magnify the hurt.
It's the introduction of light that dispels darkness.
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Lifted Up
I think one can magnify a hurt by mentioning it and then saying it is less important than other issues, whereas it might be better just to discuss those other issues without the comparison.
On the other hand, acknowledging the horror of someone's hurt with the best understanding you can muster, just maybe could lead to a little healing.
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rascal
You DID down play it ...liar! You must dismiss the significance of the abuse in order to ignore your concience and the evidence presented that vpw was not a man of the spirit.
You didn`t answere my question mike, what if it was your teen aged body that wierwille demanded?
Yeah I thought so, it`s not to bad as long as someone ELSE had to pay the price.
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Mike
LiftedUp,
I agree. However, that approach is only the initial step in healing. It's been done and done again, and again, and again here and in many other places and in private.
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