Mike your belief that wierwilles molestation of teenaged girls was less devistating than any religion....
What he did was heinous....his destruction appalling.....but yet in your opinion it`s *still better than religion*?
That is sick....and showes a total lack of understanding of the depths of wierwilles depravity ....and a complete lack of comprehension of the enormity of the destruction wrought by his betrayal.
What a shame that you didn`t have a pretty young trusting daughter in twi...you could have presented her up as an offering....as an appeasment to the God`s apetite....probably convinced her that it was an honor to serve the man of God so that he could be able to more effectively teach the rest of us...such a small price to pay....long as you got the *truth* taught in return.
I hope to God that you never do have a daughter....
As far as your justifications of wierwille by claiming that we harbor great evil and will give in if given the oportunity is yet another deception...MOST of us resist the evil...that is what you do when you are a genuine spirit filled christian.
your walk with God...your desire to grow with and be pleasing to him...your responsibility to your fellow man, mean way more than the gratifying of ones own selfish desires.
It`s the difference between the genuine and the counterfit.
My husband grew up catholic in the 50s n 60s as well mike.... there is no way in hell he would EVER consider the abuse in twi as preferable for our four daughters over the childhood that he enjoyed growing up in a catholic church, school, and family....as a matter of fact, it was better than a lot of upbringings.
If it had been your teen aged body that wierwille was after mike, would you be so cavaliere about what happened?
Think about it...get a really vivid picture in your mind of that sweating grunting old pervert using you ... you hating it ...hating yourself...but submitting because it was what the man of God required...Do you REALLY think that the repugnance you feel at the very thought of sexual contact with him is any less than the revulsion suffered by the teens that were in reality required to submit to that nasty old man?
Would the evil be any more defined in your mind? Would it be worse? Why? No big sins or little sins right?
quote:Insisting on a sinless human to bring forth God's written Word will forever postpone receiving such truth.
I have never expected to receive the Word taught from a sinless person. I would be waiting until Christ returned. Has anyon else ever waited for this?
I think the REAL issues are the lies and deceit that followed veepee's life. VeePee presented himself as a man of God, allowed himself to be called the MOG, and made us think that he was tapped in to God like nobody else on earth had been since Jesus Christ himself.
VeePee's words didn't line up with his pseudo life-style. That is why I disregard him and his teachings. I don't give him undue credit.
After leaving twi, I learned that a minister has a responsibility to NOT present himself without flaws. They are human, and they are not superior to those who come to hear them teach. The church leaders need to be aware of their own weaknesses and need to grow and be open about their hurt, pain, failings, and humanity. Instead of "having it all together" and being insulated from confrontation and change, they are in a process of healing and opening up to their own safe people for support and accountability.
TWI has a terrible problem with leadership trying to appear flawless and never making mistakes or admitting them. It doesn't allow them to be human. It started with VeePee's ego. It didn't end there.
VeePee didn't spearhead the truth like he wanted us to believe. Truth comes from other sources also. The churches are not the evil places VeePee made them to be. They were just his competition.
quote:I am sad for all the hurt that I saw happen in the ministry, but I see that hurt as small when compared to the massive pains religion has inflicted on us all, especially in the area of sex. The phony spirituality attached to “sex by the rules” is massive in our culture. It’s something the Protestant Reformation never got around to fixing. It’s a form of Mary worship. If I had to choose between my sisters (or future daughter) suffering from a few unwanted advances or getting caught up in phony sex-purity religion, I’d choose the former as less damaging. I’ve seen more damage from Puritanism than from licentiousness.
Mike, you are a sick man. You know that don't you? Why would you choose either one? Oh, yes of course. Because your hero and idol partook in the licentiousness.
quote:Let's see now...There seems to be certain folks who INSIST on kissing the hem of wierwilles garment. Look...the guy was a lying scumbag. If you feel it's worth even 1 minute of your time to "consider" his theology...to study the "great man's" teachings...go for it. I can't imagine spending any of my precious time on this earth trying to seperate the truth from the error that some cornfield preacher pasted together from other Christian writers. You like pfal? Read Bullinger's "How to enjoy the bible"...it's where wierwille stole his material from for the first 8 sessions of his "class".
Why give this plagerizing bastard any credit for anything? Mike...he lied to us in God's name. He hurt countless people with his obsession for booze and illicit sex. His false doctrines have put thousands into mental bondage...and he turned people AWAY from a relationship with Christ, substituting himself for the absent savior. You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting such evil...did you say you were a Christian?
Hairy, you sure get to the point. I don't feel like writing any thing myself tonight. I think I will go watch the Olympics and then go to bed. Hairy, I hope you don't mind me borrowing your post and reposting it here. Can I make this my Grease Spot contribution for tonight? Thanks.
quote:I’ve seen more damage from Puritanism than from licentiousness.
I've seen more damage from predatory behavior than from Puritanism OR licentiousness. THIS WAS NOT LICENTIOUSNESS! THIS WAS PREDATORY BEHAVIOR, and should be discussed as such.
quote:... No need to think, no need to make any choices; just throw out what you feel is inconvenient and keep the rest...it's "Truth", ain't it?
I've thrown out not what I feel is inconvenient, but what I now sincerely believe to be error. "Tithing for Prosperity" is erroneous, "The Law of Believing" isn't all that certain, doesn't work like gravity, etc. Eli eli, etc. There's probably more. But but but there are so many truths that I've clung to, that are very hard to just cut out of my life -- would be like cutting out my heart or liver. I'm willing to listen to all arguments and viewpoints against what we were taught in twi; but unless it makes sense to change in a certain category, it's pretty hard, and might be pretty foolish, to do so just because of Wierwille's sinning. ...
Mike, I have seen people talk about something a LOT more serious, IMO, than "a few unwanted advances". Finding out more about just what DID happen seems to be another matter. But with this phrase, you seem to brush it aside with an attitude of...even if it did happen, it wasnt that big a deal. So, I ask you, and very seriously, were there only a few unwanted advances involved? Because I have seem people here talking about a lot worse, at least in terms of how you seem to downgrade the phrase. If you have reason to believe there WASN'T any worse, then I would genuinely like to hear about it.
Mark S...I'm flattered that you re-posted my humble thoughts on this subject. ;)-->
Mike...No, I am not religious. I am a Christian...and it seems as though you have given me a choice of 2 things...either admitting that I lied (which I did not) or getting into a theological debate over wierwille's teachings. Let me ask you a question? Why should I allow you to define the parameters of my responses to you?
Mike...you erroneously attempt to seperate the actions of twi from the doctrine of wierwille. I'm not sure that is a good idea, if you are really looking for truth. Why? Because the bible says that you will know them by their fruits. What is the fruit produced by wierwille's teachings?...I'm not talking about the emotional "good times" that people had when wierwille was still running things...I'm talking about the long term effects that adhering to wierwille teachings have produced in people. The fruit that wierwille produced was rotten fruit that led to his own ego rather than to Christ.
The absent Christ...Because twi declared him to be absent, he was not allowed to participate in the functioning of twi. In fact he was replaced by the "written word" which really means he was replaced by wierwille (wierwille, afterall was the ultimate authority in twi for what the written word said), therefore, Veepee became the head of the body. Wierwille taught that speaking to Christ was sinful and that it was a trick of the devil when Christians tried to speak to their lord. That is why wierwille used the old testament dynamic in defining himself...MOG! He saw himself more like Moses than any Christian leader in the new testament...Of course that's why LCM considered himself to be like Joshua. It's true that wierwille taught that we can each have a one on one relationship with God...but in practice, he would not allow it. The "waytree" was designed for each person to go through a chain of command...this was a direct counterfeit to the true body of Christ, in which each goes directly to Lord for direction...instead of the twig coordinator. In other words, wierwille version of the bible was ..."Christianity without Christ"...sorry Mikey, he led people away from Christ...I stand by what I said.
quote:What is the fruit produced by wierwille's teachings?...
Here's some:
Folks getting born again, understanding that impact and being certain, to know that you know that you know you're heaven bound, no power from hell can stop you from going
Folks knowing that Jesus Christ's death and suffering was the complete payment for man's sins
Folks understanding more about the bible, believing it's accuracy and integrity
Folks understanding the difference between salvation by grace, and salvation by works
Folks understanding from scripture what their rights (5 sonship rights) and responsibilities (preaching the Word), are in Christ
Folks understanding from scripture what it means to manifest holy spirit
Folks understanding from scripture that the dead are not alive now
Folks understanding from scripture the differences between "son of God" and "God the Son", and the various implications of both
Folks understanding about Jesus Christ our Passover, Jesus Christ our Promised Seed
Folks understanding, respecting and appreciating various other very good bible teachers, such as B.G. Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger, Kenyon, Jones, etc. etc. ...
You wrote at the top of this page: “…no one on this board ever got 1/2 the carte blanche to teach you as vpw. Level the playing field a little, standardize the rules a bit, and we might surprise the heck out of you.”
All of my twig leaders and branch leaders DID get “ 1/2 the carte blanche” to teach me. In fact, they had a strong advantage over VPW in age and in proximity. Plus, they didn’t have to undergo the massive unlearning Dr had to do, AND they had all the good stuff laid out for them. None of them came close to helping me as Dr did.
If you were a twig leader then you had that level playing field. How well did you teach them? I’ll bet what you offered them wasn’t even close to 1/2 of what they were offered in the books. Come back to PFAL and see with new eyes what is written and it might surprise the heck out of YOU!
Aaah, the old bait-and-switch!
Mike,
you compared vpw with the people on this board.
I said you hadn't dealt with them on anything resembling a fair
footing.
You then said the comparison was between vpw and the famous
twig leaders you dismissed previously. Further, you decided-
again, sight unseen-that anything I ever offered was
insufficient.
Wonder why nobody's eager to accept your word on hidden
messages when your word on overt messages is so dishonest?
Uh...Mike, I was with TWI well over 15 years and don't remember being taught to have a relationship with God's son. Ever. I was hammered over the head with the statement that he wasn't God. Speaking one word to Jesus Christ was tantamount to being possessed in TWI-land.
I also checked with several friends who are ex-TWI and lived in various parts of the country who feel the same way. Scientific poll? Nope. We seem to have been in a different ministry than you. Or maybe you took off by the early 80s and therefore preceded me?
I was told about Jesus Christ all the time.
I was told "The Word takes the place of the ABSENT Christ."
Period. I was not to look to Jesus, author and finisher of
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
16
25
15
32
Popular Days
Aug 26
59
Aug 25
48
Aug 27
33
Aug 31
27
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 16 posts
oldiesman 25 posts
Oakspear 15 posts
Mike 32 posts
Popular Days
Aug 26 2004
59 posts
Aug 25 2004
48 posts
Aug 27 2004
33 posts
Aug 31 2004
27 posts
rascal
Mike your belief that wierwilles molestation of teenaged girls was less devistating than any religion....
What he did was heinous....his destruction appalling.....but yet in your opinion it`s *still better than religion*?
That is sick....and showes a total lack of understanding of the depths of wierwilles depravity ....and a complete lack of comprehension of the enormity of the destruction wrought by his betrayal.
What a shame that you didn`t have a pretty young trusting daughter in twi...you could have presented her up as an offering....as an appeasment to the God`s apetite....probably convinced her that it was an honor to serve the man of God so that he could be able to more effectively teach the rest of us...such a small price to pay....long as you got the *truth* taught in return.
I hope to God that you never do have a daughter....
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
if you think DOCTOR (yuck yuck yuck) was OKAY to do what he did with young girls
YOU ARE CRAZY
did you hear me
YOU ARE CRAZY
did any of you besides me and dottie hear what he said about teaching his youngest daughter stuff ?
guess what ?
YOU ARE CRAZY
and this is a crazy world
which i knew already before THE WAY but i had hope
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
*a few unwanted advances* is an unbelievable description of the seduction and rape that was perpetrated upon those who trusted vpw as a minister.
Any who are not outraged by this betrayal, are in denial about the depth of depravity of the evil perpetrated.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
As far as your justifications of wierwille by claiming that we harbor great evil and will give in if given the oportunity is yet another deception...MOST of us resist the evil...that is what you do when you are a genuine spirit filled christian.
your walk with God...your desire to grow with and be pleasing to him...your responsibility to your fellow man, mean way more than the gratifying of ones own selfish desires.
It`s the difference between the genuine and the counterfit.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
I'm moving outside with Raf.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
My husband grew up catholic in the 50s n 60s as well mike.... there is no way in hell he would EVER consider the abuse in twi as preferable for our four daughters over the childhood that he enjoyed growing up in a catholic church, school, and family....as a matter of fact, it was better than a lot of upbringings.
If it had been your teen aged body that wierwille was after mike, would you be so cavaliere about what happened?
Think about it...get a really vivid picture in your mind of that sweating grunting old pervert using you ... you hating it ...hating yourself...but submitting because it was what the man of God required...Do you REALLY think that the repugnance you feel at the very thought of sexual contact with him is any less than the revulsion suffered by the teens that were in reality required to submit to that nasty old man?
Would the evil be any more defined in your mind? Would it be worse? Why? No big sins or little sins right?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
I have never expected to receive the Word taught from a sinless person. I would be waiting until Christ returned. Has anyon else ever waited for this?
I think the REAL issues are the lies and deceit that followed veepee's life. VeePee presented himself as a man of God, allowed himself to be called the MOG, and made us think that he was tapped in to God like nobody else on earth had been since Jesus Christ himself.
VeePee's words didn't line up with his pseudo life-style. That is why I disregard him and his teachings. I don't give him undue credit.
After leaving twi, I learned that a minister has a responsibility to NOT present himself without flaws. They are human, and they are not superior to those who come to hear them teach. The church leaders need to be aware of their own weaknesses and need to grow and be open about their hurt, pain, failings, and humanity. Instead of "having it all together" and being insulated from confrontation and change, they are in a process of healing and opening up to their own safe people for support and accountability.
TWI has a terrible problem with leadership trying to appear flawless and never making mistakes or admitting them. It doesn't allow them to be human. It started with VeePee's ego. It didn't end there.
VeePee didn't spearhead the truth like he wanted us to believe. Truth comes from other sources also. The churches are not the evil places VeePee made them to be. They were just his competition.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
One positive thing (if it can be said) about Smikeol's would-be offering of his daughters to VPW in place of having a 'Mary worship' religion is this:
This clearly and unequivicably shows that Smikeol's (and ultimitely VPW's) god ..... SUCKS!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
A quote from Mike
Mike, you are a sick man. You know that don't you? Why would you choose either one? Oh, yes of course. Because your hero and idol partook in the licentiousness.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
A quote from Uncle Hairy.
Hairy, you sure get to the point. I don't feel like writing any thing myself tonight. I think I will go watch the Olympics and then go to bed. Hairy, I hope you don't mind me borrowing your post and reposting it here. Can I make this my Grease Spot contribution for tonight? Thanks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Dear exy,
The youngest girl is now 47, born in 1957. Same age as I am.
:)-->
Mike,
Told ya it would hit the fan. And Raf and JT didn't even get into it....
;)-->
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
thanks shazzy. one year difference
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Why, Shaz, I think there's a compliment in that. :-)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JustThinking
Now if one of them was picking on you or one of the other ladies...
(Ok, I'm being paternal this morning)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
No sweat, JT, I think this discussion was a slam-dunk. But if I ever get into some SERIOUS trouble, I'll be sure to call on ya!
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
I've seen more damage from predatory behavior than from Puritanism OR licentiousness. THIS WAS NOT LICENTIOUSNESS! THIS WAS PREDATORY BEHAVIOR, and should be discussed as such.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Oakspear:
I've thrown out not what I feel is inconvenient, but what I now sincerely believe to be error. "Tithing for Prosperity" is erroneous, "The Law of Believing" isn't all that certain, doesn't work like gravity, etc. Eli eli, etc. There's probably more. But but but there are so many truths that I've clung to, that are very hard to just cut out of my life -- would be like cutting out my heart or liver. I'm willing to listen to all arguments and viewpoints against what we were taught in twi; but unless it makes sense to change in a certain category, it's pretty hard, and might be pretty foolish, to do so just because of Wierwille's sinning. ...Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lifted Up
Mike, I have seen people talk about something a LOT more serious, IMO, than "a few unwanted advances". Finding out more about just what DID happen seems to be another matter. But with this phrase, you seem to brush it aside with an attitude of...even if it did happen, it wasnt that big a deal. So, I ask you, and very seriously, were there only a few unwanted advances involved? Because I have seem people here talking about a lot worse, at least in terms of how you seem to downgrade the phrase. If you have reason to believe there WASN'T any worse, then I would genuinely like to hear about it.
Edited by Lifted UpLink to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
Mark S...I'm flattered that you re-posted my humble thoughts on this subject.
;)-->
Mike...No, I am not religious. I am a Christian...and it seems as though you have given me a choice of 2 things...either admitting that I lied (which I did not) or getting into a theological debate over wierwille's teachings. Let me ask you a question? Why should I allow you to define the parameters of my responses to you?
Mike...you erroneously attempt to seperate the actions of twi from the doctrine of wierwille. I'm not sure that is a good idea, if you are really looking for truth. Why? Because the bible says that you will know them by their fruits. What is the fruit produced by wierwille's teachings?...I'm not talking about the emotional "good times" that people had when wierwille was still running things...I'm talking about the long term effects that adhering to wierwille teachings have produced in people. The fruit that wierwille produced was rotten fruit that led to his own ego rather than to Christ.
The absent Christ...Because twi declared him to be absent, he was not allowed to participate in the functioning of twi. In fact he was replaced by the "written word" which really means he was replaced by wierwille (wierwille, afterall was the ultimate authority in twi for what the written word said), therefore, Veepee became the head of the body. Wierwille taught that speaking to Christ was sinful and that it was a trick of the devil when Christians tried to speak to their lord. That is why wierwille used the old testament dynamic in defining himself...MOG! He saw himself more like Moses than any Christian leader in the new testament...Of course that's why LCM considered himself to be like Joshua. It's true that wierwille taught that we can each have a one on one relationship with God...but in practice, he would not allow it. The "waytree" was designed for each person to go through a chain of command...this was a direct counterfeit to the true body of Christ, in which each goes directly to Lord for direction...instead of the twig coordinator. In other words, wierwille version of the bible was ..."Christianity without Christ"...sorry Mikey, he led people away from Christ...I stand by what I said.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Aaah, the old bait-and-switch!
Mike,
you compared vpw with the people on this board.
I said you hadn't dealt with them on anything resembling a fair
footing.
You then said the comparison was between vpw and the famous
twig leaders you dismissed previously. Further, you decided-
again, sight unseen-that anything I ever offered was
insufficient.
Wonder why nobody's eager to accept your word on hidden
messages when your word on overt messages is so dishonest?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
Oldies...none of that is fruit.
All you did was post a laundry list of wierwille's doctrine and then claim that just knowing this doctrine is the fruit...
You don't need a big nose to smell bad baloney.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I was told about Jesus Christ all the time.
I was told "The Word takes the place of the ABSENT Christ."
Period. I was not to look to Jesus, author and finisher of
the faith, but to leadership.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.