I'm not suggesting you throw anything out that is profitable for you. Simply that, by themselves, good things happening in an organization do not guarantee anything about it's founder. That's all.
Personally, a lot of good happened to me in TWi. Was it due to VPW? Not necessarily as he was no longer alive when I first heard of TWI. People I met, however, were great blessings to my life. Many of the teachings I heard over the years were wonderful and emotionally inspiring. The damage done to me and my family, however, is still being repaired long after the uplifting is gone. Like you, I try to cleave to that which is good.
Tell what to do with my life? Can I move to your house, watch your kids and generally work for nothing? Just tell me vague spiritual sounding sound bites and I'll be happy, oh greek master. ;-)
Ah yes my child, and I will appoint a prophet & priest for my king dumb, but then you could not think no more and that would be sad , but oh child, I your guru shall think about your offer, and if you pay your tithe, I may let you oh child on board
still no comment from yah, dang, and just when I thought I had yah.
Pjroberge's assessment on a doctoral dissertation and thesis sounds very accurate. Much more advanced than a Masters thesis. Research is about three years, you do have a panel of mentors or advisors who will ride you until you get it right, and then when this panel is satisfied, then it is either accepted or goes before another board or panel for an independent review of the thesis, its development and so forth. If accepted by this panel or committee, usually after about 250 to 350 pages, then you are approved for your doctorate. All that, and this begins only after certain classes are taken first.
The doctoral research is a killer in a real, accredited university. It makes my "Capstone", though tough, look like nothing.
I am older. I like to put on these fake photos to make myself look younger. Put gray in the hair on the sides and a reddish blond mustache and that is me.
I do not have a doctorate yet, though that may be in the future. Money, time, and stress are bogging me down at this time. I have to get rid of the stress in my life before I can take on a doctoral study. The money and time I can make. My adult kids stress me out a lot. It is wavering, but until certain things are done, like picking up their lives for themselves, I'll be under some stress. One of the kids is bipolar and mentally challenged as an adult, so I have to deal with that. Frankly, he cannot help the way he is.
I noticed you mentioned Wierwille said he operated all five gift ministries. I studied the gift ministries and all five are available to all. But it depends on whether they really operate them. I doubt his ministry of an apostle. He flunked pastoring with his sexual escapades, flunked teaching by copying others, was more like a false prophet, but he did evangelize well.
I always thought Donnie Fugit did well in all five areas. An apostle just means "someone sent from one place to another", as if to begin a ministry in a certain place. There were twelve apostles and twelve tribes of Israel. After Israel they were to bring it to the Gentiles.
There was nothing in the word "apostle" that indicated anything about "new light".
Song, you are deep in seeing VPW for what he was. Thanks.
There was nothing in the word "apostle" that indicated anything about "new light".
I think your right about that eagle. Interestingly, the Apostles were some of the most abused men in history. What it would mean today I dunno know, but I doubt it would bring any bragging rights with it.
I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary. I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around. The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall.
The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions. vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree. But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in ang get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize. I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.
So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.
The quote from Research Geek sounds nice but it doesn't sit well with me. Here is a guy from a VERY traditional family that stressed education. He does his undergrad word at the school his family supports then goes on to attend the theology school of a well known institution. He considers Oxford but then finds a middle-of-nowhere school that isn't accredited and is viewed as suspect. Is it me or is there a disconnect here?
Either something happened after Princeton or this story is a sham.
I`d have a whole lot more respect for an honest garbage man then a lying Doctor.
At issue is, that among other things he was a liar...fundimentally dishonest.....a very large character flaw in someone who wants to be Gods representative....and consequently negates his trustworthiness on all levels.
Princeton Theological Seminary is not a part of Princeton University. It is a legitimate institution, but is not in any way affiliatred with Princeton U. Our own Plotinus is a grad of Princeton Theological, and has mentioned this before.
I have a posthumous bio of Wierwille that was handed out at Rock '85 (how I got it, I have no idea). It says, "...when Rev. Wierwille was ready to pursue his doctorate, he decided that attending Oxford University was not as important to him as studying under Dr. H. Ellis Lininger, a well-known homiletician who was then president of Pikes Peak Bible Seminary and Burton College of Manitou Springs, Colorado."
A quick Google search of Lininger turns up nothing about him except that Wierwille studied with him. Hmm, not so well-known?
Okay, so let's say it's true: Wierwille put in the work. He could have just said that he studied under Lininger, but he didn't do that. He insisted on tacking "Doctor" to his name, even though the institution was unaccredited, then OR later. That's about like saying that I read all the same books and wrote some papers, so I want to be called a doctor of mathematics, or science, or whatever. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. The work needs to be reviewed by professors of an accredited institution.
So does that mean that Wierwille taught bunk? Not necessarily. There are two aspects of TWI here. One is the doctrine, the other is the behavior. Many people were hurt by the actions of Wierwille and his minions. Even if the doctrine were perfect (which neither you nor I believe), still Wierwille's behavior, to put it mildly, sucked, and many were hurt. They need to know that Wierwille had an agenda that (at least in part) was not about helping people. It was about power.
I don't care if he was a garbageman, he taught me the Word of God.
Quote by Ralph D. ...QUOTE]
Well OM, I do not know if RD actually said that, but it seems a little on the elitist planet.
'Garbagemen/women' are now know as "Sanitation Engineers". And I respect them as well the honey truck that empties the portalets and those that build all that equipment to move the waste from our homes and body.
I would like to take that quote you have offered and say a reality I see...
"I do not care if he was a womanizer, a plagiarist, and whether he was a DR? or TEACHER or operated the other 4 gift ministry's. I do not care he hurt people and told lies and lived a tax free life living off the abs of those who actually believed his words and all the allegations of sexual abuse and, and, and....
Besides the aformentioned and all those who have come forward a testimony the OBVIOUS, Victor the Trickstor and womanizer, a plagiarist, and installed LCM...
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oldiesman
JustThinking,
The biblical concepts I believe from twi mean a whole lot to me.
Give me some good reasons why I ought to throw the baby out with the bathwater ...
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Steve Lortz
oldies - Exactly which things do you consider to be "baby", and which things "bathwater"?
I think many of us agree more closely than we might think, if we use our terms more precisely.
Personally, I know there was "baby", but I also think there was a lot more "bathwater" than some people (not necessarily you) recognize.
Love,
Steve
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oldiesman
Some items I consider to be "The Baby":
Some items I consider to be "The Bathwater":
I'm sure there's a whole lot more, that's all I can think of right now.
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JustThinking
OM,
I'm not suggesting you throw anything out that is profitable for you. Simply that, by themselves, good things happening in an organization do not guarantee anything about it's founder. That's all.
Personally, a lot of good happened to me in TWi. Was it due to VPW? Not necessarily as he was no longer alive when I first heard of TWI. People I met, however, were great blessings to my life. Many of the teachings I heard over the years were wonderful and emotionally inspiring. The damage done to me and my family, however, is still being repaired long after the uplifting is gone. Like you, I try to cleave to that which is good.
We may be in violent agreement on this. ;-)
JT
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
How about the five gift ministrys... i was told he operated all five of them???!!!
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JustThinking
Evader
Profiteer
A-posthole
Poseur
Teaser
Yep, all 5.
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sky4it
Just thinking:
your comment:
Tell what to do with my life? Can I move to your house, watch your kids and generally work for nothing? Just tell me vague spiritual sounding sound bites and I'll be happy, oh greek master. ;-)
Ah yes my child, and I will appoint a prophet & priest for my king dumb, but then you could not think no more and that would be sad , but oh child, I your guru shall think about your offer, and if you pay your tithe, I may let you oh child on board
still no comment from yah, dang, and just when I thought I had yah.
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Eagle
Pjroberge's assessment on a doctoral dissertation and thesis sounds very accurate. Much more advanced than a Masters thesis. Research is about three years, you do have a panel of mentors or advisors who will ride you until you get it right, and then when this panel is satisfied, then it is either accepted or goes before another board or panel for an independent review of the thesis, its development and so forth. If accepted by this panel or committee, usually after about 250 to 350 pages, then you are approved for your doctorate. All that, and this begins only after certain classes are taken first.
The doctoral research is a killer in a real, accredited university. It makes my "Capstone", though tough, look like nothing.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Eagle...
You appear younger than your words
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JustThinking
sky4it,
Sorry master, I was cleaning your outhouse. It's done though. May I have another? ;-)
Or shall I just build you a chalet?
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sky4it
just thinking:
Sorry master, I was cleaning your outhouse. It's done though. May I have another? ;-)
Or shall I just build you a chalet?
Now thats more like it, and next time you'll get a peek at the geek of Greek.
eeeeeeeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
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Eagle
Thanks, TSRTS (The Song Remains The Same):
I am older. I like to put on these fake photos to make myself look younger. Put gray in the hair on the sides and a reddish blond mustache and that is me.
I do not have a doctorate yet, though that may be in the future. Money, time, and stress are bogging me down at this time. I have to get rid of the stress in my life before I can take on a doctoral study. The money and time I can make. My adult kids stress me out a lot. It is wavering, but until certain things are done, like picking up their lives for themselves, I'll be under some stress. One of the kids is bipolar and mentally challenged as an adult, so I have to deal with that. Frankly, he cannot help the way he is.
I noticed you mentioned Wierwille said he operated all five gift ministries. I studied the gift ministries and all five are available to all. But it depends on whether they really operate them. I doubt his ministry of an apostle. He flunked pastoring with his sexual escapades, flunked teaching by copying others, was more like a false prophet, but he did evangelize well.
I always thought Donnie Fugit did well in all five areas. An apostle just means "someone sent from one place to another", as if to begin a ministry in a certain place. There were twelve apostles and twelve tribes of Israel. After Israel they were to bring it to the Gentiles.
There was nothing in the word "apostle" that indicated anything about "new light".
Song, you are deep in seeing VPW for what he was. Thanks.
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Outin88!
I believe Wierwille went to Pike's Peak as a shortcut to getting a true doctorate degree.
I think he wanted the title of doctor to make himself sound important. Personally, I feel since it was not accredited college, it's not a true phd;
Here's a discussion on this subject a while ago, Resrearch Geek argues that VPW earned a doctorate. Check out the link;
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...7031#8916087031
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sky4it
Eagle:
your comment:
There was nothing in the word "apostle" that indicated anything about "new light".
I think your right about that eagle. Interestingly, the Apostles were some of the most abused men in history. What it would mean today I dunno know, but I doubt it would bring any bragging rights with it.
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oldiesman
Quote by Research Geek ...
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JustThinking
The quote from Research Geek sounds nice but it doesn't sit well with me. Here is a guy from a VERY traditional family that stressed education. He does his undergrad word at the school his family supports then goes on to attend the theology school of a well known institution. He considers Oxford but then finds a middle-of-nowhere school that isn't accredited and is viewed as suspect. Is it me or is there a disconnect here?
Either something happened after Princeton or this story is a sham.
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oldiesman
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rascal
I`d have a whole lot more respect for an honest garbage man then a lying Doctor.
At issue is, that among other things he was a liar...fundimentally dishonest.....a very large character flaw in someone who wants to be Gods representative....and consequently negates his trustworthiness on all levels.
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JustThinking
OM,
What was the date and context of the quote? There are zillions of adoring VP quotes around. TWI had a whole practice around kissing VP's butt.
JT
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shazdancer
Just to clear up a point...
Princeton Theological Seminary is not a part of Princeton University. It is a legitimate institution, but is not in any way affiliatred with Princeton U. Our own Plotinus is a grad of Princeton Theological, and has mentioned this before.
Regards,
Shaz
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shazdancer
Dear Oldies,
I have a posthumous bio of Wierwille that was handed out at Rock '85 (how I got it, I have no idea). It says, "...when Rev. Wierwille was ready to pursue his doctorate, he decided that attending Oxford University was not as important to him as studying under Dr. H. Ellis Lininger, a well-known homiletician who was then president of Pikes Peak Bible Seminary and Burton College of Manitou Springs, Colorado."
A quick Google search of Lininger turns up nothing about him except that Wierwille studied with him. Hmm, not so well-known?
Okay, so let's say it's true: Wierwille put in the work. He could have just said that he studied under Lininger, but he didn't do that. He insisted on tacking "Doctor" to his name, even though the institution was unaccredited, then OR later. That's about like saying that I read all the same books and wrote some papers, so I want to be called a doctor of mathematics, or science, or whatever. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. The work needs to be reviewed by professors of an accredited institution.
So does that mean that Wierwille taught bunk? Not necessarily. There are two aspects of TWI here. One is the doctrine, the other is the behavior. Many people were hurt by the actions of Wierwille and his minions. Even if the doctrine were perfect (which neither you nor I believe), still Wierwille's behavior, to put it mildly, sucked, and many were hurt. They need to know that Wierwille had an agenda that (at least in part) was not about helping people. It was about power.
Regards,
Shaz
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JustThinking
Shaz,
Thank you for the clarification about Princeton.
JT
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
oldiesman
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Eagle
Sky4it:
Thanks. Sounds like you studied and found that, too. It's refreshing that there are those out there and here on GS that look into these things.
God Bless.
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