Re:"Does anybody know what "Doctor's" "doctorate thesis" was about?" LOL!
Near as I know, there never was one. I've heard some hard-core Wierwillites make the excuse that "Well, he's written so many books, and any one of them would be the equivalent of a doctoral thesis, so it really doesn't matter."
One expects that a person that bears the title of *doctor* to have put in the time and effort money hard work and discipline required to aquire the skills and inspire the respect that comes with that title.
It`s like martial arts....I noticed this month in a catalog that you can ORDER a black belt....certificates as well ...you can put any name you please on them.....so why bother spending 5 to ten years of my life going to a dojo, working myself to exhaustion 2 1/2 to 5 hours twice weekly?
Why should I continue paying my hard earned money every month....doing hot boring repetative exercises...when I could learn all the same moves watching a chuck norris or Jackie chan movie?
Of what possible benefit is it to endure the rigors of testing roughly twice yearly....proving that I have aquired the speed skill stamina and mastery of techniques to procede to the next level?
Why do all of this when my black belt and certificate is identical to the one ordered from the martial arts catalog?
We both have the same rank and title...question is....who do you want in charge of your personal safety in a fight?
Who would you want as an instructor in your dojo?
Why?
Could it be the one who EARNS the rank/title is better qualified?
When one is garnering respect for a title not earned....what does it say about that person?
I vaguely remember The Dilemma of Foreign Missions manuscript on display in a glass case in the BRC in the late 80's - early 90's and a stop on the BRC tours. I think I also remember VP saying in some class or book ( the way Living in Love ?) that the dilemma was that the missionaries bought their converts with a small portion (like about 10%)of the money donated and the rest was "wasted" by the missionary organization. He also said that this report was very unpopular with denominational ministries and was suppressed. I think it was the result of a field trip he took to check on the missions that his church supported when he was still in his original denominational church.
I would seem that he then used it as his thesis to obtain a doctorate from a theological correspondence school. I also remember VP saying somewhere that a Doctorate Thesis was the foundation upon which a lifetimes work was built. Perhaps in a way this was true for him. Did this report from a field trip paid for by his church and the missionary organization give him the information on how this kind of “Scam” worked? Did he then use it to obtain a credential that increased his credibility? Did he expose the “scam”, use it as part of a reason for his spilt from his denomination and then us it as a blueprint for organizational and financial aspects of what would become TWI?
quote:There has been considerable controversy regarding Wierwille's theological education. He studied at the University of Chicago and Princeton Theological Seminary. He also claimed to have done extensive study at Moody Bible Institute; however, he only took selected correspondence courses and never received a degree. His doctorate in theology was received from Pikes Peak Seminary, a reputed degree mill in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
so where are his degrees from ?
i'm only asking because it affects my spiritual life :)-->
VPW received his Masters of Theology degree from Princeton Theological Seminary in 1941. At that time he was invited to do his doctoral work at Oxford University in England, but he turned it down because he wanted to teach and serve as pastor, so he postponed his work toward his doctorate and was ordained as clergy at the First Evangelical and Reformed Church in New Knoxville on: 6/29/41.
It's seems real funny to me how the VPW critics only want to make a big issue out of where he obtained his doctorate, but then always fail to mention he was invited to do his doctoral work at Oxford Univerisity in England. I guess the critics are hoping you will be too lazy to find out this fact for yourself and simply take their word for everything they say.
When he was ready to persue his doctorate, VPW decided that attending Oxford University wasn't as important to him as studying under Dr. H. Ellis Lininger, a well known homiletician who was at that time the president of Pikes Peak Bible Seminary and Burton College in Manitou Springs (not Colorado Springs) Colorado. Manitou Springs is NW of Colorado Springs.
quote:A quetion to ask is why did the vicster go the pikes peak diploma mill route if he actually wrote a competent doctoral thesis?
For that matter, why didn't he get his doctorate through a recognized institution? My opinion is that no reputable institution would accept VPW as a doctoral candidate...
I hope I have answered Mr Proberge's question to some degree. There is a Pikes Peak Community College located in Colorado Springs, CO. Now are you saying this is where VPW went for his doctorate?
I highly doubt it. Pikes Peak Community College was established by a legislative act in 1968, and was then called El Paso Community College. When the college opened its doors in September, 1969, more than 800 students attended classes in rented buildings in Old Colorado City on the west side of town.
VPW received received his doctorate in 1948. I'm sure there have been many changes since VPW received his doctorate at Pikes Peak Bible seminary in 1948. I don't believe this bible seminary is even still around today from what I've heard.
quote:Not to throw a wrench in this discussion, but how do we know VeePees bachelers or masters degrees were real?
If there's anyone out there who initially got involved with twi, or stayed involved with twi, because of "Dr. Wierwille's Educational Background" please raise your hand.
I'd be very interested in hearing about your stowry, and how that matters any with one's spiritual life ...
As far as I'm concerned, he could have been a high school dropout ... wouldn't matter one bit. In fact, if he WAS a highschool dropout, some might say that what he achieved later in life proves that formal schooling means little or nothing.
Check this out, here's some famous high school dropouts:
When I was graduating high school, I received dozens upon dozens of brochures and pamphlets from every college in the country, including every single Ivy League college. Each of these brochures/pamphlets/undergraduate bulletins was sent in the hope that I would request an application for admission. This is routine. I was not the only one to get these.
I would imagine that someone who graduates from Princeton Theological Seminary would receive such a brochure from Oxford. Everyone in his class probably got the exact same thing. To call it an "invitation" is a stretch. If we're talking about the same thing, he didn't get an invitation: he got an ad.
I could be wrong. Maybe he was "invited" to study at Oxford.
I applied to NYU and was accepted, but couldn't go due to finances. THAT was an invitation. I actually got accepted into the school.
quote:VPW received his Masters of Theology degree from Princeton Theological Seminary in 1941. At that time he was invited to do his doctoral work at Oxford University in England, but he turned it down because he wanted to teach and serve as pastor, so he postponed his work toward his doctorate and was ordained as clergy at the First Evangelical and Reformed Church in New Knoxville on: 6/29/41.
WTH, Where did you get this "data" ? From something that VPW wrote or had written about himself? It seems about as credible as Wierwille's "snowstorm" and some of the other myths and lies he told.
quote:It's seems real funny to me how the VPW critics only want to make a big issue out of where he obtained his doctorate, but then always fail to mention he was invited to do his doctoral work at Oxford Univerisity in England.
No one mentions that he was "invited" to Oxford, because it cannot be substantied anymore than the snow on the gas pumps. The fact that Pike's Peak Theological Seminary was not accredited by any known accrediting authority CAN be substantied.
Edited by Goey
Does possession of or lack of a ThD affect my spirituality or walk with God? Of course not. Did I consider it at all when I was involved in TWI? No I didn't.
However, it was part of what I considered when I evaluated Wierwille's trustworthiness to interpret the bible, and these days it's part of what I consider when I evalauate whether or not his "ministry" was a complete scam or not.
Oldies, you said:
quote:My opinion, which is pure speculation, is that at the time, he was either too poor, or too lazy, or a mixture of both.
Well, by all indications Wierwille's dad was all for an education and footed the bill for his bachelor's and master's degrees. So that leaves lazy. What are the implications of that?
The fact that VPW established a multi-million dollar business and fleeced a many of us here in the process...let's face it, the guy was not a complete dummy. He went quite far with what little he had.
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George Aar
Mr. Hammeroni,
Re:"Does anybody know what "Doctor's" "doctorate thesis" was about?" LOL!
Near as I know, there never was one. I've heard some hard-core Wierwillites make the excuse that "Well, he's written so many books, and any one of them would be the equivalent of a doctoral thesis, so it really doesn't matter."
There are none so blind...
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excathedra
if you can pretend you have a doctorate degree, you can pretend you wrote a doctoral thesis.... an original piece of research
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sadie
hell, it's easier to get a degree, with a little money, and not have to go to Pike's Peak or whatever. Search the internet...
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rascal
I wrote about this in the open forum...
One expects that a person that bears the title of *doctor* to have put in the time and effort money hard work and discipline required to aquire the skills and inspire the respect that comes with that title.
It`s like martial arts....I noticed this month in a catalog that you can ORDER a black belt....certificates as well ...you can put any name you please on them.....so why bother spending 5 to ten years of my life going to a dojo, working myself to exhaustion 2 1/2 to 5 hours twice weekly?
Why should I continue paying my hard earned money every month....doing hot boring repetative exercises...when I could learn all the same moves watching a chuck norris or Jackie chan movie?
Of what possible benefit is it to endure the rigors of testing roughly twice yearly....proving that I have aquired the speed skill stamina and mastery of techniques to procede to the next level?
Why do all of this when my black belt and certificate is identical to the one ordered from the martial arts catalog?
We both have the same rank and title...question is....who do you want in charge of your personal safety in a fight?
Who would you want as an instructor in your dojo?
Why?
Could it be the one who EARNS the rank/title is better qualified?
When one is garnering respect for a title not earned....what does it say about that person?
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JustThinking
"The dilemna of foreign missions"
Ch. 1. Blonde or brunette?
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ckeer
I vaguely remember The Dilemma of Foreign Missions manuscript on display in a glass case in the BRC in the late 80's - early 90's and a stop on the BRC tours. I think I also remember VP saying in some class or book ( the way Living in Love ?) that the dilemma was that the missionaries bought their converts with a small portion (like about 10%)of the money donated and the rest was "wasted" by the missionary organization. He also said that this report was very unpopular with denominational ministries and was suppressed. I think it was the result of a field trip he took to check on the missions that his church supported when he was still in his original denominational church.
I would seem that he then used it as his thesis to obtain a doctorate from a theological correspondence school. I also remember VP saying somewhere that a Doctorate Thesis was the foundation upon which a lifetimes work was built. Perhaps in a way this was true for him. Did this report from a field trip paid for by his church and the missionary organization give him the information on how this kind of “Scam” worked? Did he then use it to obtain a credential that increased his credibility? Did he expose the “scam”, use it as part of a reason for his spilt from his denomination and then us it as a blueprint for organizational and financial aspects of what would become TWI?
Cynically enquiring minds want to know
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JustThinking
An employee writing a paper that is critical of the practices of his OWN denomination?! How dare he?! How could he?! ;-)
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pjroberge
Not to throw a wrench in this discussion, but how do we know VeePees bachelers or masters degrees were real?
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Raf
Do we have any reason to believe they're not?
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excathedra
is the following true ?
so where are his degrees from ?
i'm only asking because it affects my spiritual life
:)-->
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What The Hay
VPW received his Masters of Theology degree from Princeton Theological Seminary in 1941. At that time he was invited to do his doctoral work at Oxford University in England, but he turned it down because he wanted to teach and serve as pastor, so he postponed his work toward his doctorate and was ordained as clergy at the First Evangelical and Reformed Church in New Knoxville on: 6/29/41.
It's seems real funny to me how the VPW critics only want to make a big issue out of where he obtained his doctorate, but then always fail to mention he was invited to do his doctoral work at Oxford Univerisity in England. I guess the critics are hoping you will be too lazy to find out this fact for yourself and simply take their word for everything they say.
When he was ready to persue his doctorate, VPW decided that attending Oxford University wasn't as important to him as studying under Dr. H. Ellis Lininger, a well known homiletician who was at that time the president of Pikes Peak Bible Seminary and Burton College in Manitou Springs (not Colorado Springs) Colorado. Manitou Springs is NW of Colorado Springs.
I hope I have answered Mr Proberge's question to some degree. There is a Pikes Peak Community College located in Colorado Springs, CO. Now are you saying this is where VPW went for his doctorate?Pikes Peak Community College
I highly doubt it. Pikes Peak Community College was established by a legislative act in 1968, and was then called El Paso Community College. When the college opened its doors in September, 1969, more than 800 students attended classes in rented buildings in Old Colorado City on the west side of town.
VPW received received his doctorate in 1948. I'm sure there have been many changes since VPW received his doctorate at Pikes Peak Bible seminary in 1948. I don't believe this bible seminary is even still around today from what I've heard.
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JustThinking
WTH,
Is your knowledge of VP's invitation to Oxford first hand? Just checking. It sounds as if it is.
JT
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oldiesman
Sadie, back in 1948, it was a little different stowry ...
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oldiesman
If there's anyone out there who initially got involved with twi, or stayed involved with twi, because of "Dr. Wierwille's Educational Background" please raise your hand.
I'd be very interested in hearing about your stowry, and how that matters any with one's spiritual life ...
As far as I'm concerned, he could have been a high school dropout ... wouldn't matter one bit. In fact, if he WAS a highschool dropout, some might say that what he achieved later in life proves that formal schooling means little or nothing.
Check this out, here's some famous high school dropouts:
And the Beat Goes On!
Have a great weekend, one and all!
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rascal
I agree...and HAD he been honest about his credentials whatever they were...it would be a non issue....
The issue is he LIED! That makes him an untrustworthey individual, period....everything he ever said or claimed becomes suspect.
He had no business proclaming himself a minister for God and proclaimer of the truth if he didn`t intend on behaving in a moral and ethical manner.
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ckeer
JT- I think WTH's statements also come from The Way Living in Love (I thought I still had a copy but can't find it)
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excathedra
maybe that's why he always told the story
"is not this the carpenter's son, is not his sister called dah dah, oh and his brothers.... ooh boy...." or however that goes
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
my TWInty years of TWI and still people of wonderfull or wanderfall heart post their replys wether "DR" was for real...
In '78 iI was shown his credentials were BS, but I stood with The MOG...
its 2004... "DR" is still an image in mine heart a GREAT MAN OF GOD, which I know to be bs as well his credentials,,,
I understand OM
Damn it.. where is Donny Fugit???
***
I was at some meet Rev Shr... the host...
I was an aisle behind Donny...
I watched Donny and ingnored the rev...
his head hung low and his elbows draped his knees...
i thinks he wanted to say something... but he just shook his head
Edited by oneyedjackswild1 psLink to comment
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Raf
"Invited" to study at Oxford?
"Invited?"
When I was graduating high school, I received dozens upon dozens of brochures and pamphlets from every college in the country, including every single Ivy League college. Each of these brochures/pamphlets/undergraduate bulletins was sent in the hope that I would request an application for admission. This is routine. I was not the only one to get these.
I would imagine that someone who graduates from Princeton Theological Seminary would receive such a brochure from Oxford. Everyone in his class probably got the exact same thing. To call it an "invitation" is a stretch. If we're talking about the same thing, he didn't get an invitation: he got an ad.
I could be wrong. Maybe he was "invited" to study at Oxford.
I applied to NYU and was accepted, but couldn't go due to finances. THAT was an invitation. I actually got accepted into the school.
I wonder what he meant by "invited."
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Goey
Posted by What The Hay:
WTH, Where did you get this "data" ? From something that VPW wrote or had written about himself? It seems about as credible as Wierwille's "snowstorm" and some of the other myths and lies he told.
No one mentions that he was "invited" to Oxford, because it cannot be substantied anymore than the snow on the gas pumps. The fact that Pike's Peak Theological Seminary was not accredited by any known accrediting authority CAN be substantied. Edited by GoeyLink to comment
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Oakspear
Does possession of or lack of a ThD affect my spirituality or walk with God? Of course not. Did I consider it at all when I was involved in TWI? No I didn't.
However, it was part of what I considered when I evaluated Wierwille's trustworthiness to interpret the bible, and these days it's part of what I consider when I evalauate whether or not his "ministry" was a complete scam or not.
Oldies, you said:
Well, by all indications Wierwille's dad was all for an education and footed the bill for his bachelor's and master's degrees. So that leaves lazy. What are the implications of that?Link to comment
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I'll be damned,,,
VP had a daddy and mommy???... i thought he was just a man of god since the first century church
did not get it right the first time or something like that...
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TheInvisibleDan
The fact that VPW established a multi-million dollar business and fleeced a many of us here in the process...let's face it, the guy was not a complete dummy. He went quite far with what little he had.
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pjroberge
Another couple of facts:
1) VPW didn't take classes at Moody. Their registrar told me there is no record of him taking classes
2) VeePee only took one semester(at Princeton?)(freshman level) of classical greek, not any biblical greek.
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