I'm no lawyer,but I'm not gonna charge anyone 200 bucks an hour for my opinion,either...
I think the key difference between a clergyman and say,a psychiatrist,as regards to legal liability for betraying a trust is that a clergyman's victim would not be considered a "patient"...Where our government recognizes and regulates mental health care professionals as "doctors" and their patients as "sick people" or "disabled",the same does not hold true for ministers...Rev. Liberty rightfully holds the clergy to a higher standard,but I think she also paints too broad a picture of congregants being somewhat helpless and vulnerable...Would you want to put a church-goer in the same category as the guy on a psychiatrist's couch?
As has been said,every circumstance is different,and I think the way was more unique in it's own right regarding sexual misconduct...A cult will draw a different crowd of people than the church on the corner...Whether it's people who come from dysfunctional families,or who just wanted to commit to a cause,or were determined to find the truth,I think we all were a little more vulnerable and were probably guilty of revering our "father in the word" more highly than we ought to have...The fact that he would exploit and betray the confidence of the most vulnerable for his own gratification is beyond indecency...I just don't think it should be a sue-able offence....
How far down the way tree should those "ministering" be held liable for sexual assault?...Limb,branch,twig leaders?....The guy undershepherding the girl in the class?(I think AA calls that the 13th step)...
Personally,I think if precedents are set in suing ministers for sexual assault it will open the door for too much government involvement in church matters...Unless,of course,it's truly "assault" and not sexual exploitation or misconduct or something similar...
I liked your link a lot, and I think it absolutely contributed to the discussion. Why apologize?
Dear Simon,
Lots of congregants ARE patients of pastors, in the sense that they went to them as mental health professionals for advice. I don't know what the courts do with this, but I would have no problem legally making pastors liable if they take advantage of the counselor/client relationship.
Beyond that, I would be happy to take lawsuits against Twig leaders who are NOT counseling but are held in esteem as spiritual leaders (to use your example) on a case-by-case basis. I think it would have to be established in court that the "leaf" revered the Twig leader, and the Twig leader knew it and took advantage of it. Tough to prove, I think.
Your response to Simon really gets to the heart of my question. Ministers do a lot more than stand in a pulpit and teach. They may end up doing couseling work in areas that in other cases might be handled by mental health professionals. When I was a TC, for example, people came to me with many things which were out of my expertise. My usual approach was to send them up the Way Tree because I chose not to delude myself that I had ANY qualification to deal with the issue at hand.
However, I did see other coordinators/leaders trying to "counsel" someone out of homosexuality, drug use, etc. and royally screw it up. In some cases, the two of them ended up in the sack. In one case, the woman was trying to get out of an S&M lifestyle and guess where the two ended up? Should he be liable in the court's view as a counselor? I don't know. I know what I think is morally right but that won't secure a conviction.
Oh,one thing I forgot to mention...I would think a minister who is a chaplain,say,would be held more legally accountable,because of the government's involvement in the position he holds...
quote:I think the key difference between a clergyman and say,a psychiatrist,as regards to legal liability for betraying a trust is that a clergyman's victim would not be considered a "patient"...Where our government recognizes and regulates mental health care professionals as "doctors" and their patients as "sick people" or "disabled",the same does not hold true for ministers...Rev. Liberty rightfully holds the clergy to a higher standard,but I think she also paints too broad a picture of congregants being somewhat helpless and vulnerable...Would you want to put a church-goer in the same category as the guy on a psychiatrist's couch?
Simonzelotes, I agree completely, and couldn't have said it any better. Thank you.
Shoot,Oldiesman,now all the women around here are gonna hate me,too :)-->...
Look,I know sexual abuse,especially involving clergy is no laughing matter...I could never fully understand a victim's perspective because I,myself have not been one..But I cannot help but think that a victim may have as much or more anguish to deal with as a victim of forced rape...
I think a victim of any crime feels some guilt or blame...Even if they simply feel guilty for walking down a dark alley in the middle of the night,I think rape victims beat themselves up for not somehow avoiding the crime...
Regarding sexual abuse victims in the way,I think self-imposed guilt is a natural reaction,with even heavier burdens of guilt,such as how they could have avoided it,how they could put so much trust in a father-figure,or a man of God,how they could be so disallusioned into thinking they were doing God's will etc. ...
No disrespect meant to clergy,but a minister can be in a position to play the ultimate confidence game...Only the stakes could be much greater than conning people out of their money,but conning them out of the most important things to the individual's heart and soul....
I should clarify what I said above...A rape victim will have other horrors to deal with,that an abuse victim will not have,such as fears and terror stemming from the violent ordeal...I wasn't trying to portray the victims as "the same"..
quote:Shoot,Oldiesman,now all the women around here are gonna hate me,too
Yup, Simonzelotes, like toothpaste that's out of the tube and can't be undone, it's too late, you said what you said. Sorry about that, I shouldn't have put the whammy on you. :D-->
quote:A rape victim will have other horrors to deal with,that an abuse victim will not have,such as fears and terror stemming from the violent ordeal...
quote:I could never fully understand a victim's perspective because I,myself have not been one..
quote:Since clergy have a responsibility to set and maintain appropriate boundaries, those who are violated by clergy's inappropriate sexual behavior are not to be blamed even if they initiated the contact.
do you think "clergy" have a responsbility to set and maintain appropriate boundaries ?
are they not smart enough to know when they are counseling someone, they might be "seduced" or whatever?
i'll never understand why you have to hold out on this point. are you ordained or something?
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simonzelotes
I'm no lawyer,but I'm not gonna charge anyone 200 bucks an hour for my opinion,either...
I think the key difference between a clergyman and say,a psychiatrist,as regards to legal liability for betraying a trust is that a clergyman's victim would not be considered a "patient"...Where our government recognizes and regulates mental health care professionals as "doctors" and their patients as "sick people" or "disabled",the same does not hold true for ministers...Rev. Liberty rightfully holds the clergy to a higher standard,but I think she also paints too broad a picture of congregants being somewhat helpless and vulnerable...Would you want to put a church-goer in the same category as the guy on a psychiatrist's couch?
As has been said,every circumstance is different,and I think the way was more unique in it's own right regarding sexual misconduct...A cult will draw a different crowd of people than the church on the corner...Whether it's people who come from dysfunctional families,or who just wanted to commit to a cause,or were determined to find the truth,I think we all were a little more vulnerable and were probably guilty of revering our "father in the word" more highly than we ought to have...The fact that he would exploit and betray the confidence of the most vulnerable for his own gratification is beyond indecency...I just don't think it should be a sue-able offence....
How far down the way tree should those "ministering" be held liable for sexual assault?...Limb,branch,twig leaders?....The guy undershepherding the girl in the class?(I think AA calls that the 13th step)...
Personally,I think if precedents are set in suing ministers for sexual assault it will open the door for too much government involvement in church matters...Unless,of course,it's truly "assault" and not sexual exploitation or misconduct or something similar...
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excathedra
thank you simon for bringing the thread back on track
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excathedra
and sorry raf. i really should have stayed out of this thread.
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shazdancer
Dear Exy,
I liked your link a lot, and I think it absolutely contributed to the discussion. Why apologize?
Dear Simon,
Lots of congregants ARE patients of pastors, in the sense that they went to them as mental health professionals for advice. I don't know what the courts do with this, but I would have no problem legally making pastors liable if they take advantage of the counselor/client relationship.
Beyond that, I would be happy to take lawsuits against Twig leaders who are NOT counseling but are held in esteem as spiritual leaders (to use your example) on a case-by-case basis. I think it would have to be established in court that the "leaf" revered the Twig leader, and the Twig leader knew it and took advantage of it. Tough to prove, I think.
Aren't you glad I'm not a judge?
Shaz
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JustThinking
Shaz,
Your response to Simon really gets to the heart of my question. Ministers do a lot more than stand in a pulpit and teach. They may end up doing couseling work in areas that in other cases might be handled by mental health professionals. When I was a TC, for example, people came to me with many things which were out of my expertise. My usual approach was to send them up the Way Tree because I chose not to delude myself that I had ANY qualification to deal with the issue at hand.
However, I did see other coordinators/leaders trying to "counsel" someone out of homosexuality, drug use, etc. and royally screw it up. In some cases, the two of them ended up in the sack. In one case, the woman was trying to get out of an S&M lifestyle and guess where the two ended up? Should he be liable in the court's view as a counselor? I don't know. I know what I think is morally right but that won't secure a conviction.
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simonzelotes
Yeah,Shaz,I think if you were a judge some of my old friends(and girl-friends)might just now be getting out of jail
:)-->
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simonzelotes
Oh,one thing I forgot to mention...I would think a minister who is a chaplain,say,would be held more legally accountable,because of the government's involvement in the position he holds...
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Raf
I agree with Shaz. There was no need to apologize.
I don't know what the law is one this one, so I'm the one who should apologize for not sticking to the thread topic. So I apologize.
:)-->
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oldiesman
Simonzelotes, I agree completely, and couldn't have said it any better. Thank you.
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simonzelotes
Shoot,Oldiesman,now all the women around here are gonna hate me,too
:)-->...
Look,I know sexual abuse,especially involving clergy is no laughing matter...I could never fully understand a victim's perspective because I,myself have not been one..But I cannot help but think that a victim may have as much or more anguish to deal with as a victim of forced rape...
I think a victim of any crime feels some guilt or blame...Even if they simply feel guilty for walking down a dark alley in the middle of the night,I think rape victims beat themselves up for not somehow avoiding the crime...
Regarding sexual abuse victims in the way,I think self-imposed guilt is a natural reaction,with even heavier burdens of guilt,such as how they could have avoided it,how they could put so much trust in a father-figure,or a man of God,how they could be so disallusioned into thinking they were doing God's will etc. ...
No disrespect meant to clergy,but a minister can be in a position to play the ultimate confidence game...Only the stakes could be much greater than conning people out of their money,but conning them out of the most important things to the individual's heart and soul....
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simonzelotes
I should clarify what I said above...A rape victim will have other horrors to deal with,that an abuse victim will not have,such as fears and terror stemming from the violent ordeal...I wasn't trying to portray the victims as "the same"..
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oldiesman
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excathedra
thanks raf and shaz
**
simon
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excathedra
maybe i should clarify something
when i think of twi in this thread, i'm thinking about wierwille
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excathedra
oldiesman here is what you disagreed with
do you think "clergy" have a responsbility to set and maintain appropriate boundaries ?
are they not smart enough to know when they are counseling someone, they might be "seduced" or whatever?
i'll never understand why you have to hold out on this point. are you ordained or something?
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simonzelotes
So I contradicted myself....At least I know I'll be right half the time...
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excathedra
i have a feeling we're all talking about different things somehow
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simonzelotes
No,...This is just uncharted waters for me...
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excathedra
simon, i just wanted to make the point that victims of abuse are not necessarily less haunted or damaged than "rape" victims
that's all
you know how much i think of you and respect you
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excathedra
we were writing at the exact same time but my post showed up a minute later
hey what's going on here ?????
:)-->
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simonzelotes
Exc,
In clarifying,I was trying to point out that both victims are haunted and full of anguish,though they may not actually be identicle to eachother...
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simonzelotes
We're just hogging this thread...
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simonzelotes
Either that or you're posts are on 10 second standby 'cuz you swear so much...
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excathedra
that must be it you asshol e
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