God bless you. I'm happy to answer your questions, and I do hope it is profitable for you and others. I do hope you will post this reply also.
As for those who "question the doctrine taught by CES," my first question to them is: Which of our books/tapes have you read/heard? And then: At what point, and how, in that book/tape did we deviate from what the Word of God says? We're right here, and willing to entertain the answers to such questions.
[ Hm. Seems I've heard here at the GSC that open message forums by CES were shut down. Plus, JAL announced in the GSC that he was not going to discuss openly in the GSC. He's willing to entertain some questions, but always on his own terms, which includes controlling the microphone, it certainly seems to me. ]
(snip)
As per 1 Cor. 11:17 (NIV), there was a point at which TWI, overall (though that is impossible to measure exactly) went from doing more good than harm to doing "more harm than good." If I had to set a date, I'd say 1979. But even after that, many people received incredible deliverance because the Word of God was often taught accurately and powerfully, and many people in leadership positions loved people with the love of God.
[ Translation: Plagiarism counts for nothing, and, initially, no significant doctrinal error was in effect.]
VPW will stand before the Lord Jesus like everyone else, and he will be fairly judged for both the good and the bad in his life.
[ Translation: let's not mention VPW's sins and transgressions.]
One of the ways that Satan has tricked countless ex-Way folks is to get them to backlash against the kinds of sins you mentioned and throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. That is, "VPW was a bum; he couldn't have taught much that wasright on with God." Sorry, but the accuracy of one's teaching can be rightly judged only by the Word, not by his behavior.
[ Translation: The lifestyle and practical error of a leader, and his utter failure to be an example to the brethren, and otherwise failing to adhere to I Timothy 3, in no way compromise his thinking, which means they don't compromise his teaching. ONLY his doctrine has any significance."]
In that vein, Philippians 1:15-18 is a fairly shocking passage of Scripture. It clearly implies that if God had to choose between a person with wrong motives teaching truth and a person with right motives teaching error, He'd choose the former. Why? Because even if the teacher walked offstage and robbed a bank, his audience could still apply the truth they heard!
[ Someone already addressed this. Those verses say, in effect, that God can use even evil things to accomplish His will. It in no way ranks evil doctrine, evil lifestyle, good doctrine, good lifestyle. That was an unwarranted assumption, and thus, I now have a point of doctrine upon which JAL has deviated from the rightly-divided Word of God. Any chance he'll reconsider his stance? Anyone? He just said he was open to it....]
Obviously God's goal is to get people with right motives teaching truth. Is it really arrogant for me to say that I know many such people in STFI/CES? I don't think so.
[ Of course you say your organization has leaders with proper motivations, teaching proper doctrine. Of course, you see them as the top people on the planet now. The question is: how do the remaining 99.9% of Christians rank?]
That passage, and countless others, of course, show clearly that God is HEAVILY invested in His Word. Because there is such a lack of knowledge ofit on the earth,
[ Ok, that answers my question. The remaining 99.9% of Christians are know-nothings. Even the ones with access to Leonard, Bullinger, Kenyon, Stiles....]
He does everything He can to help/heal/straighten out anyone who is teaching it accurately. Yes, there can come a point when that person gets so far out that God cannot help him.
Speaking of backlash, one response to the profligacy of many TWI leaders is that some former followers, like my old New York Marathon buddy Vince Finnegan, have adopted the false doctrine that a Christian can "reject"(and thus lose) his salvation. Hello-o? It wouldn't be "salvation" if you could lose it. Terribly underestimating God's grace and mercy, and contradicting a vast number of clear verses in the Bible (especially the truth about being born again of incorruptible seed--how can you lose seed?), adherents to this practically debilitating lie are arguing for a lesser possibility than the glorious truth that God sets forth about what we have in Christ.
[ Translation: Having dismissed the 99.5% of Christians that have no ties to vpw/twi/pfal, I shall now dismiss the remaining 0.4% not in my organization. They reacted so severely that they're just as error-ridden and idiotic as the other so-called Christians. Thus, we are the ONLY ones who teach The Truth. ]
In that vein, here's another shocking passage--Galatians 1:6-9. God minces no words about what He thinks of "another gospel," that is, salvation by works. That, by the way, is the hallmark of every false religion--Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Roman Catholicism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormomism, et al.Only Christianity, which is not a religion, teaches salvation by grace through faith in the work of Jesus Christ. Amen.
[ Ooooo, that sounded soooo pious. Is that what Galatians 1:6-9 actually talk about?]
[ Galatians 1:6. Paul marvels they moved to "another" ("hetero", a different) gospel. Verse 7, Paul says it is not "another" (allo, another of the same kind). 1:6, Paul warns about any other gospel, no matter the source. 1:9, Paul repeats himself. 1:10-2:3, Paul gives a short autobiography. 2:4 on, he addresses brethren who taught bondage. Was this bondage the salvation by works, as JAL just said? According to Galatians 2:11-21, it was about legalism and the law. Paul says that they have to give it up because righteousness has come by the grace of God, not the law. That's NOT the same as saying they went around teaching salvation by works, and to claim they did such polarizes the Christians needlessly into "good" and "evil" , not "grace-minded" and "law-minded". ]
Yes, there was very little true accountability among the leadership ofTWI--I was one of those whom few people ever confronted (and not because I was always right!). Once again, the basis of wrong practice is wrong doctrine. Because there was no teaching about an intimate, personal relationship with Jesus as Lord on a daily basis, and no teaching about facing the "sin that dwells in us (who would want to face it without Jesus?)," and the erroneous teaching that the Bema is for rewards only (not so--all unconfessed sin will still be "on the books," and will be brought to light), sin abounded.
Excuse me--I was "in The Way" about as much as anyone. Therefore, I recognize the evils, errors, and pitfalls very well. So do those in the STFI/CES servant/leadership nucleus with me. NOW HEAR THIS: we therefore havea proportionately GREAT desire NOT TO REPEAT THOSE ERRORS! (CES tape: What is Christian Leadership?)
[ Has this "great desire" produced a great vigilance to stamp out every trace of arrogance and elitism among the leadership?]
During these past 17+ years, a number of people have asked the same question you did: "What is going to stop CES from becoming like TWI?" My first answer: YOU!!! How so? Because we value people's individuality, and encourage them to speak up if they do not like something. That doesn't mean wewill agree with them, but they know we will not treat them badly if they disagree with us. Another answer to that question is--correct teaching about authority (CES tape: A Biblical View of Authority) in the Body of Christ. Yes, there is authority, but all authority is relative to thelordship of Jesus Christ, and subject to his ultimate authority.
[ Those of you with history with CES, please chime in on this point. I lack the experience to confirm or refute this.]
We have no "rank and file," no "pecking order," and no "pedestals." Why? Because there is no such thing in the Word, and we teach the Word. We do have nametages at our events, but they are all the same color!
[steps in the right directions, good ideas, good actions. They are a beginning. ]
As for STFI/CES, I'd say that those who have made the effort to get upclose and personal with us know that the nucleus of our servant/leadership aggressively holds one another accountable, but honestly, I could never adequately express how true that is--you gotta be there. My own leave-of-absence in 2001, mandated by my closest friends, is an example of our refusal to compromise the standard of the Word. This is not a "good old boy" organization.
[Again, good signs, and improvements. Please note one incredible danger to accountability: with all the leaders in the same groupthink and zeitgeist, an error that affects them all will be invisible to all. ]
Arrogance: "a genuine or assumed feeling of superiority that shows itself in an overbearing manner or attitude or in excessive claims of position,dignity, or power or that unduly exalts one's own worth or importance." No one with a real relationship with Jesus Christ as Lord, who is surrounded by people also trying to become like him, will manifest arrogance.
[ Hm-does this mean "I'm immune to arrogance", or "you wouldn't be worried about arrogance if you were a REAL Christian", or both? I'm betting both.]
In fact, knowing Jesus as the Savior from the sin that dwells in us brings you face to face with our own weaknesses day by day, and keep us in the light.That kind of "humiliation" drives one to Jesus, where he finds a genuine, godly sense of self-worth.
I was surprised, and saddened, to see that you seem to think that one's relationship with his heavenly Father has nothing to do with this life. Gosh, that's what it's all about (see 2 Pet. 1:2-4: esp. "...all things that pertain to life and godliness..."). The whole point of knowing God and the Lord Jesus Christ is to shine as a light in this dark, sick world, living with joy and peace amidst trials and tribulation by holding to the Hope of a glorious future.
[ Sounds like the famous "the poor you will have with you always, so I'm not helping them" stance of twi. Paul said otherwise in Galatians 2:10, where we just were. 'The Cardinal Thing, indeed, the ONLY thing of any meaning we can possibly do for the poor, is to teach them the Bible.'
"Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled!"
(James 2:15-17.)
Before anyone accuses me of claiming salvation by works, let me say James 2:18 sets the whole thing in its proper place-my works DEMONSTRATE the faith that I have. ]
OK, that's it for now. Go ahead and post this, and I'll get to your other questions later.
Much love to you and all the Greasespotians,
John
(snip)
John, in some ways, you've come a long way, in others, you've
We should probably start a topic on salvation in the doctrinal form. I always like to think of salvation in terms of what it means to us today, not just at death. Sometime ago I ran into a once saved always saved and everybody gets saved including the devil ministry. Interestingly they were using that doctrine as an excuse to live in unrighteousness.
I would think there would be activity on it, are you willing to start the thread, I would prefer not to.
My choice of salvation just happened to be the one given me by him. It appears to me he is saying two different things.
That devil being saved is first I've heard of that. Rather wild isn't it!
quote: (I think that JAL stops just shy of saying what johniam was talking about, that his organization just teaches the Bible, and has nothing in place to formally cope with those in need.)
I've posted before that I have 2 sons with autism. No TWI style fellowship we've gone to had anything in place to accomodate us. We attended a church for a year or so that had Sunday school for them, but there were 3 ex way families in that church.
The leaders of John Hendricks' fellowships here don't invade into our personal lives at all but the 2 sons, although they don't disrupt the fellowships, they don't benefit from them either so we don't take them there.
It's nice that today our cultural emphasis on diversity includes Christian fellowships, but nothing will accomodate EVERYBODY. Christ can, but no man made religious organization can.
quote: As for those who "question the doctrine taught by CES," my first question to them is: Which of our books/tapes have you read/heard? And then: at what point, and how, in that book/tape did we deviate from what the Word of God says? We're right here, and willing to entertain the answers to such questions.
"Which of our books/tapes have you read/heard?"
Many, many, many of them. I helped edit CES' "Dialogue" magazine for a number of years.
"At what point, and how, in that book/tape did we deviate from what the Word of God says?"
There are too many for me to list here exhaustively. But since Lynn want specifics, let's start with CES' "22 Principles of Bible Interpretation".
Principle #6 says in part, "Logic demands that words and verses must not be wrested out of context and made to mean something foreign to the original meaning of the text."
Principle #21 says in part, "Administrations must be divided accurately in the Bible, and basic changes discerned in God's dealings with man."
The scheme of "administrations" we were taught in PFAL depends on stripping the meanings from "aion" (age), "oikonomia" (management) and "diatheke" (covenant); and playing a deceptive mix-and-match shell game with the words and their meanings.
Wierwille PREACHED a system of exegesis, reading the meanings "out from" what's actually written. But he PRACTISED and TAUGHT a system of eisegesis, reading foreign meanings "into" what's written. Nowhere more flagrantly than in Wierwille's scheme of "administrations" did he wrest words and verses out of context and make them mean something foreign to the original meaning of the text.
By uncritically accepting Wierwille's scheme of "administrations", CES has deviated from what the Word of God says.
If we were to ask Lynn to sum up the great package of truth Wierwille taught,the Word of God as it has not been known since the first century, I believe he would say the recovery of the Great Mystery. Yet Wierwille's definition of the Great Mystery depended on his devious handling of the words "aion", "oikonomia" and "diatheke".
Lynn wrote, "...many are unaware of the administrations in Scripture (absolutely one of the most important things TWI taught, basically correctly)..."
In writing this sentence, Lynn is deviating from what's actually written in the Word of God. The word "oikonomia", not ever once, NOT EVEN IN ONE OCCURRANCE, refers to a period of time.
Lynn wrote, "We're right here, and willing to entertain the answers to such questions."
I submit that if Lynn believes that last sentence, he has seriously deluded himself. CES was NOT willing to entertain the answers to such questions when it gutted, and then discontinued its "Dialogue" magazine. CES was NOT willing to entertain the answers to such questions when they canceled its symposium on dispensationalism. CES was NOT willing to entertain the answers to such questions when it shut down the discussion forum on its own website. CES is STILL NOT willing to entertain the answers to such questions on ANY public forum.
I don't think John, John and Mark have any malicious intentions. They allowed Wierwille to fool them into thinking he was teaching the truth. So did we all, to one degree or another. John, John and Mark, though, have persisted in their foolishness. Yes, indeed, they themselves started the process of re-examing what we were taught in TWI, but they stopped too soon. There is still bathwater in there with the baby. They are still choking on bones.
Like anybody else, I would like to see them delivered from the influences of TWI also.
Yeah, that's about it Shaz, it would seem to me after reading that section.
The thing is, John's god sounds like a chess player, but is he a good one? If he HAD to make the choice, he'd want his "word" to be spread by someone with "wrong motives", rather than someone who's motives were right, but they were in "error".
So as long as you're making the right moves, you're stylin'. John's god might not prefer that route, but he'll endure it for the sake of his "word". Everybody's gotta make choices.
....
Matt. 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mt 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Uh oh. Jesus says that without the action the intent of a persons thoughts is like the action itself. Buuuut my motives don't have to be right with John's god, as long as I'm right about the "word".
Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Double uh oh. These guys say all the right things about their god, but inside, they're in ciao town. No deal, babeeee. Doesn't wash. Scratch it out! Interpolations, we got interpolations!
Triple uh oh. Johns' god contradicted the foundational teachings of Jesus which He repeated over and over in many places that God desires the heart, intent and motives of a person to be right towards God and their fellow man and paraphrased, they can spew all the funny stories and hot bible they want but if they're really after the recognition, money, babes and vindication they, in a word, suck. Badly.
My whole bible just fell to pieces, I guess VPW's not so proud of me anymore.
I read that post about your sons being autistic. You have my sympathies. My daughter was also the victim of leukiemia at age 5. She is today however considered cured of it. Naturally the radiation treatment gave her some learning disablities and stunted her growth. I understand how difficult it can be to have health problems. Certainly we should all be praying for you and your sons.
That devil being saved is first I've heard of that. Rather wild isn't it!
Yea that's about as corny as it gets, fact is tho this small group believed it.
I think your right about not starting a topic about salvation. I think its best to just let everyone "work out there own" as the scripture says. Sorry it took so long to get back to yah.
Yeah, sockster, I think that has been my one-note song of late, that God's Word was written for His people. The people are more important than the book. It is not God's will that they be sacrificed on behalf of the book. Sheesh, God knows what His will is, He doesn't need a book!
That devil being saved is first I've heard of that. Rather wild isn't it!
Yea that's about as corny as it gets, fact is tho this small group believed it.
I think your right about not starting a topic about salvation. I think its best to just let everyone "work out there own" as the scripture says. Sorry it took so long to get back to yah.
There's someone to believe everything ain't there? -->
Well when a thread starts on salvation somewhere down the road we'll just have to join eh! ;)-->
You said that in TWI there was "arrogance in our knowledge of the Bible versus the rest of Christianity's." I agree, and I think in large part it was because the man at the top, VPW, had a big chip on his shoulder toward the denomination that fired him. That, plus his own ego, contributed to our adopting an "us vs. them" mentality, and the persecution we got from other Christians served to exacerbate that.
The way we have put it through the years is that, generally, we did not relate to the truth we had in the most godly way. Too often we used it as a bludgeon against those who disagreed with us. But that doesn't mean it was not still truth.
In Scripture, there are two sides to the "truth coin," and in TWI we basically saw only one. The first is doctrinal/propositional: "Your word is truth" (John 17:17). We had that one down pretty well--we knew the Word. The other is practical/relational: "I am the truth" John 14:6). We too often missed that one--we didn't live it. The point of knowing the truth is to BE like Jesus in the way we relate to other people. Rather "Gnostically," we reveled in the knowledge we had, but often failed to apply it by BEING true, that is, living it in love.
HOWEVER, in regard to what we were taught versus what most other Christians believe, the fact remains that we did hear the Word as it had not been taught since the first century. How could that be? Simple--most everyone else has been believing too many Roman Catholic fables. Now we dare not backlash into a mindset like: "Well, I don't know if what I was taught was right or not." Or: "How could everyone else be wrong about the Trinity?" etc. Rather than throw out everything we were taught, we have diligently studied it all, deleted some significant errors, and gone far beyond where we were in TWI. Actually, it was VPW himself who often told me that he hoped "you young guys" (sigh) will go much farther than I have.
All of the prevailing errors believed by the vast majority of Christians are easily traceable by studying both the Word and Church history. I don't think it is at all "arrogant" to say that what we teach is far more biblical than what most Christians are taught. It is simply factual. Think about it: either the Bible does or does not teach the following:
Jesus is God, a part of the "Trinity."
There are no "dispensations" ("administrations") in Scripture, and the Church is a continuation of God's program for Israel.
A Christian can lose his salvation if he behaves in such a way that...well, it's not exactly clear, but....
The Book of Revelation is regarding Christians, who will go through part or all of the Tribulation.
If a Christian dies, he is actually still alive in some incorporeal form.
Christians will live forever in "heaven," while unbelievers will suffer fiery torment forever in "hell."
The "Holy Spirit" is the third person of the "Trinity."
Speaking in tongues, etc. are "gifts" of the spirit, and only some Christians can do them.
God is in control of everything that happens, and nothing happens unless He wills or allows it.
God has absolute foreknowledge, that is, "in the beginning" He saw the future as a present reality, including the socks you are currently wearing.
We do not believe that any of the above statements are biblical, and we have books and/or tapes that set forth from Scripture what we do believe it says regarding these absolutely critical issues. What is at stake? The quality of your daily life. Why? Because John 8:32 says that knowing the truth will make you free, and the converse must be that believing error puts you in some degree of bondage (or bandage).The more important the particular truth, the greater the freedom--or the bondage.
If our work does not convince you of our biblical position, God bless you. All we ask is that you thoroughly consider it. Honestly, most of those who have done so have been very blessed.
quote:HOWEVER, in regard to what we were taught versus what most other Christians believe, the fact remains that we did hear the Word as it had not been taught since the first century. How could that be? Simple--most everyone else has been believing too many Roman Catholic fables.
How true this is, for me at least!
I think JAL is doing a good job of making a case that CES is different from TWI, in practice at least. A lot of the doctrines are obviously the same, true, which won't change, unless the folks advocating change come across with some extra heavy beef that makes more sense than already researched doctrines most of us believe is the truth.
Those who don't believe these doctrines are always free to go elsewhere and enjoy other doctrines if they feel the other doctrines are more correct. I don't sense any condemnation or arrogance from JAL in that light, even though he still believes he's right. I don't have a problem with him believing he's right and saying so. He's got that right, just like anyone else.
quote: Those who don't believe these doctrines are always free to go elsewhere and enjoy other doctrines if they feel the other doctrines are more correct. I don't sense any condemnation or arrogance from JAL in that light, even though he still believes he's right. I don't have a problem with him believing he's right and saying so. He's got that right, just like anyone else.
Hey OM you also have that option.
Thanks...
I prefer to extend my thoughts here at GSC as well as you!!!
Shaz, the ethical application of the "if God had to choose" scenario is interesting to explore. I guess I'm taking it as an exception kind of situation. Exceptions will abound in Christianity though when we look at it from a right and wrong doctrine standpoint. So if the proposition is that when "right doctrine", not "error" is what's being presented a person can function by a different standard than what Jesus proposed and Paul taught about responsibility, accountability and core beliefs and practices, we end up in a truly exceptional situation that I find out of whack with the whole of the bible's teachings.
But certainly not out of whack when we look at history and what the capabilities are of humans to perform in life. People screw up, fall short, do wrong, etc. To me, the question isn't if God is able to work with imperfect humans. The question is broader to me, "why do seemingly good things happen to and for bad people?" Given that we're all bad at one point or another I think we can all answer it in our own way.
People in the bible that are written about did certainly carry out God's "word" who were less than admirable people at times, but the standard we would strive to achieve isn't that. But will it happen? I would say yes, of course.
When the question is focused on God's "word" and someone presenting a so-called "right" teaching of it I don't believe the answer is really any different though than it would be for anyone in any of life's matters or endeavors. The same basic rules of life taught by Jesus would apply. Paul taught grace abounds. In practical application I think we see that in the basic way that life appears to be set up and to progress. If we all physically died immediately because we did one or two things that were wrong for us or others we'd all be dead. But we see death in many forms as wrong doing progresses repetitively over time. Sooner or later, we all come to our end. What goes on between birth and death appears to determine the quality of the life we have. Basic stuff, right?
If someone were to gouge people for water in Florida right now, charging 20 dollars a gallon for purified water, when they sold it for 2 bucks a week ago, we'd be aghast. Immoral. Unethical! Bad motives, selfish, despicable!!! But the person doing it might say "it's business, I'm a business man! And I got water, you need it!" Sure, a bad human, good business.
Replace the water with the "word"...now it's alright? Good business but bad human. Bad human!!!
So many people of experience as well as you & me have the answer to lifes mystery.???
Well no I suppose we dont. It doesn't hurt once in a while to have a bowl of soup and say that while it isn't everything it sure tastes good. I guess that kinda sums up my "theology" and I dont even like that word. If life is like a box of choclates, I dont see why the Bible can be a nice bowl of soup. :)-->
Nope, I'm not wc. I was in the wc program though, 4th. That was a long time ago. Have we passed paths previously? :)--> Or do you just find my replies incomprehensibly reprehensible? :D-->
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WordWolf
JAL's response quoted in parts.
[WordWolf's comments in boldfaceas usual.]
John, in some ways, you've come a long way, in others, you've
barely moved.....
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houseisarockin
I would think there would be activity on it, are you willing to start the thread, I would prefer not to.
My choice of salvation just happened to be the one given me by him. It appears to me he is saying two different things.
That devil being saved is first I've heard of that. Rather wild isn't it!
Gnite!
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johniam
quote: (I think that JAL stops just shy of saying what johniam was talking about, that his organization just teaches the Bible, and has nothing in place to formally cope with those in need.)
I've posted before that I have 2 sons with autism. No TWI style fellowship we've gone to had anything in place to accomodate us. We attended a church for a year or so that had Sunday school for them, but there were 3 ex way families in that church.
The leaders of John Hendricks' fellowships here don't invade into our personal lives at all but the 2 sons, although they don't disrupt the fellowships, they don't benefit from them either so we don't take them there.
It's nice that today our cultural emphasis on diversity includes Christian fellowships, but nothing will accomodate EVERYBODY. Christ can, but no man made religious organization can.
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Steve Lortz
Lynn wrote,
"Which of our books/tapes have you read/heard?"
Many, many, many of them. I helped edit CES' "Dialogue" magazine for a number of years.
"At what point, and how, in that book/tape did we deviate from what the Word of God says?"
There are too many for me to list here exhaustively. But since Lynn want specifics, let's start with CES' "22 Principles of Bible Interpretation".
Principle #6 says in part, "Logic demands that words and verses must not be wrested out of context and made to mean something foreign to the original meaning of the text."
Principle #21 says in part, "Administrations must be divided accurately in the Bible, and basic changes discerned in God's dealings with man."
The scheme of "administrations" we were taught in PFAL depends on stripping the meanings from "aion" (age), "oikonomia" (management) and "diatheke" (covenant); and playing a deceptive mix-and-match shell game with the words and their meanings.
Wierwille PREACHED a system of exegesis, reading the meanings "out from" what's actually written. But he PRACTISED and TAUGHT a system of eisegesis, reading foreign meanings "into" what's written. Nowhere more flagrantly than in Wierwille's scheme of "administrations" did he wrest words and verses out of context and make them mean something foreign to the original meaning of the text.
By uncritically accepting Wierwille's scheme of "administrations", CES has deviated from what the Word of God says.
If we were to ask Lynn to sum up the great package of truth Wierwille taught,the Word of God as it has not been known since the first century, I believe he would say the recovery of the Great Mystery. Yet Wierwille's definition of the Great Mystery depended on his devious handling of the words "aion", "oikonomia" and "diatheke".
Lynn wrote, "...many are unaware of the administrations in Scripture (absolutely one of the most important things TWI taught, basically correctly)..."
In writing this sentence, Lynn is deviating from what's actually written in the Word of God. The word "oikonomia", not ever once, NOT EVEN IN ONE OCCURRANCE, refers to a period of time.
Lynn wrote, "We're right here, and willing to entertain the answers to such questions."
I submit that if Lynn believes that last sentence, he has seriously deluded himself. CES was NOT willing to entertain the answers to such questions when it gutted, and then discontinued its "Dialogue" magazine. CES was NOT willing to entertain the answers to such questions when they canceled its symposium on dispensationalism. CES was NOT willing to entertain the answers to such questions when it shut down the discussion forum on its own website. CES is STILL NOT willing to entertain the answers to such questions on ANY public forum.
I don't think John, John and Mark have any malicious intentions. They allowed Wierwille to fool them into thinking he was teaching the truth. So did we all, to one degree or another. John, John and Mark, though, have persisted in their foolishness. Yes, indeed, they themselves started the process of re-examing what we were taught in TWI, but they stopped too soon. There is still bathwater in there with the baby. They are still choking on bones.
Like anybody else, I would like to see them delivered from the influences of TWI also.
Love,
Steve
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Hey johniam...
It certainly is not 'either','or', is it!!!..
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socks
Yeah, that's about it Shaz, it would seem to me after reading that section.
The thing is, John's god sounds like a chess player, but is he a good one? If he HAD to make the choice, he'd want his "word" to be spread by someone with "wrong motives", rather than someone who's motives were right, but they were in "error".
So as long as you're making the right moves, you're stylin'. John's god might not prefer that route, but he'll endure it for the sake of his "word". Everybody's gotta make choices.
....
Matt. 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mt 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Uh oh. Jesus says that without the action the intent of a persons thoughts is like the action itself. Buuuut my motives don't have to be right with John's god, as long as I'm right about the "word".
Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Double uh oh. These guys say all the right things about their god, but inside, they're in ciao town. No deal, babeeee. Doesn't wash. Scratch it out! Interpolations, we got interpolations!
Triple uh oh. Johns' god contradicted the foundational teachings of Jesus which He repeated over and over in many places that God desires the heart, intent and motives of a person to be right towards God and their fellow man and paraphrased, they can spew all the funny stories and hot bible they want but if they're really after the recognition, money, babes and vindication they, in a word, suck. Badly.
My whole bible just fell to pieces, I guess VPW's not so proud of me anymore.
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sky4it
JohnIam:
I read that post about your sons being autistic. You have my sympathies. My daughter was also the victim of leukiemia at age 5. She is today however considered cured of it. Naturally the radiation treatment gave her some learning disablities and stunted her growth. I understand how difficult it can be to have health problems. Certainly we should all be praying for you and your sons.
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sky4it
houseis rockin:
your comment:
That devil being saved is first I've heard of that. Rather wild isn't it!
Yea that's about as corny as it gets, fact is tho this small group believed it.
I think your right about not starting a topic about salvation. I think its best to just let everyone "work out there own" as the scripture says. Sorry it took so long to get back to yah.
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shazdancer
Yeah, sockster, I think that has been my one-note song of late, that God's Word was written for His people. The people are more important than the book. It is not God's will that they be sacrificed on behalf of the book. Sheesh, God knows what His will is, He doesn't need a book!
Regards,
Shaz
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houseisarockin
There's someone to believe everything ain't there?
-->
Well when a thread starts on salvation somewhere down the road we'll just have to join eh!
;)-->
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shazdancer
Additional from John, came in last night...
P.S. to my 8/17 reply:
You said that in TWI there was "arrogance in our knowledge of the Bible versus the rest of Christianity's." I agree, and I think in large part it was because the man at the top, VPW, had a big chip on his shoulder toward the denomination that fired him. That, plus his own ego, contributed to our adopting an "us vs. them" mentality, and the persecution we got from other Christians served to exacerbate that.
The way we have put it through the years is that, generally, we did not relate to the truth we had in the most godly way. Too often we used it as a bludgeon against those who disagreed with us. But that doesn't mean it was not still truth.
In Scripture, there are two sides to the "truth coin," and in TWI we basically saw only one. The first is doctrinal/propositional: "Your word is truth" (John 17:17). We had that one down pretty well--we knew the Word. The other is practical/relational: "I am the truth" John 14:6). We too often missed that one--we didn't live it. The point of knowing the truth is to BE like Jesus in the way we relate to other people. Rather "Gnostically," we reveled in the knowledge we had, but often failed to apply it by BEING true, that is, living it in love.
HOWEVER, in regard to what we were taught versus what most other Christians believe, the fact remains that we did hear the Word as it had not been taught since the first century. How could that be? Simple--most everyone else has been believing too many Roman Catholic fables. Now we dare not backlash into a mindset like: "Well, I don't know if what I was taught was right or not." Or: "How could everyone else be wrong about the Trinity?" etc. Rather than throw out everything we were taught, we have diligently studied it all, deleted some significant errors, and gone far beyond where we were in TWI. Actually, it was VPW himself who often told me that he hoped "you young guys" (sigh) will go much farther than I have.
All of the prevailing errors believed by the vast majority of Christians are easily traceable by studying both the Word and Church history. I don't think it is at all "arrogant" to say that what we teach is far more biblical than what most Christians are taught. It is simply factual. Think about it: either the Bible does or does not teach the following:
Jesus is God, a part of the "Trinity."
There are no "dispensations" ("administrations") in Scripture, and the Church is a continuation of God's program for Israel.
A Christian can lose his salvation if he behaves in such a way that...well, it's not exactly clear, but....
The Book of Revelation is regarding Christians, who will go through part or all of the Tribulation.
If a Christian dies, he is actually still alive in some incorporeal form.
Christians will live forever in "heaven," while unbelievers will suffer fiery torment forever in "hell."
The "Holy Spirit" is the third person of the "Trinity."
Speaking in tongues, etc. are "gifts" of the spirit, and only some Christians can do them.
God is in control of everything that happens, and nothing happens unless He wills or allows it.
God has absolute foreknowledge, that is, "in the beginning" He saw the future as a present reality, including the socks you are currently wearing.
We do not believe that any of the above statements are biblical, and we have books and/or tapes that set forth from Scripture what we do believe it says regarding these absolutely critical issues. What is at stake? The quality of your daily life. Why? Because John 8:32 says that knowing the truth will make you free, and the converse must be that believing error puts you in some degree of bondage (or bandage).The more important the particular truth, the greater the freedom--or the bondage.
If our work does not convince you of our biblical position, God bless you. All we ask is that you thoroughly consider it. Honestly, most of those who have done so have been very blessed.
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oldiesman
JAL said:
How true this is, for me at least!I think JAL is doing a good job of making a case that CES is different from TWI, in practice at least. A lot of the doctrines are obviously the same, true, which won't change, unless the folks advocating change come across with some extra heavy beef that makes more sense than already researched doctrines most of us believe is the truth.
Those who don't believe these doctrines are always free to go elsewhere and enjoy other doctrines if they feel the other doctrines are more correct. I don't sense any condemnation or arrogance from JAL in that light, even though he still believes he's right. I don't have a problem with him believing he's right and saying so. He's got that right, just like anyone else.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proof
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Hey OM you also have that option.
Thanks...
I prefer to extend my thoughts here at GSC as well as you!!!
JAL is a protege TWI
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sky4it
oldie and the song remains:
Your comment:
I don't have a problem with him believing he's right and saying so. He's got that right, just like anyone else.
So your saying he's got the right to be right and there's nothing wrong with that. I agree.
The songremains:
Your comment:
Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proof
.. But does extraodinary proof require extraordinary intelligence or the extra terestrial?
Yes i was humoring yah, if that makes me a "wise guy" tell me to shut up.
:)-->
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Main Entry: pro·t??R>Pronunciation: 'prO-t&-"zhA, "prO-t&-'
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from past participle of prot?r to protect, from Latin protegere
Date: 1787
: one who is protected or trained or whose career is furthered by a person of experience, prominence, or influence
Pronunciation Key
© 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
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***
RoK On S4
Song
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
.. But does extraodinary proof require extraordinary intelligence or the extra terestrial?
Yes i was humoring yah, if that makes me a "wise guy" tell me to shut up.
Hey what ever you decide
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socks
Shaz, the ethical application of the "if God had to choose" scenario is interesting to explore. I guess I'm taking it as an exception kind of situation. Exceptions will abound in Christianity though when we look at it from a right and wrong doctrine standpoint. So if the proposition is that when "right doctrine", not "error" is what's being presented a person can function by a different standard than what Jesus proposed and Paul taught about responsibility, accountability and core beliefs and practices, we end up in a truly exceptional situation that I find out of whack with the whole of the bible's teachings.
But certainly not out of whack when we look at history and what the capabilities are of humans to perform in life. People screw up, fall short, do wrong, etc. To me, the question isn't if God is able to work with imperfect humans. The question is broader to me, "why do seemingly good things happen to and for bad people?" Given that we're all bad at one point or another I think we can all answer it in our own way.
People in the bible that are written about did certainly carry out God's "word" who were less than admirable people at times, but the standard we would strive to achieve isn't that. But will it happen? I would say yes, of course.
When the question is focused on God's "word" and someone presenting a so-called "right" teaching of it I don't believe the answer is really any different though than it would be for anyone in any of life's matters or endeavors. The same basic rules of life taught by Jesus would apply. Paul taught grace abounds. In practical application I think we see that in the basic way that life appears to be set up and to progress. If we all physically died immediately because we did one or two things that were wrong for us or others we'd all be dead. But we see death in many forms as wrong doing progresses repetitively over time. Sooner or later, we all come to our end. What goes on between birth and death appears to determine the quality of the life we have. Basic stuff, right?
If someone were to gouge people for water in Florida right now, charging 20 dollars a gallon for purified water, when they sold it for 2 bucks a week ago, we'd be aghast. Immoral. Unethical! Bad motives, selfish, despicable!!! But the person doing it might say "it's business, I'm a business man! And I got water, you need it!" Sure, a bad human, good business.
Replace the water with the "word"...now it's alright? Good business but bad human. Bad human!!!
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Socks are ya wc?
Your replys sound like the letters I recieved from my sponsorship WC...
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sky4it
The song remains:
dah comments:
.. But does extraodinary proof require extraordinary intelligence or the extra terestrial?
Yes i was humoring yah, if that makes me a "wise guy" tell me to shut up.
Hey what ever you decide
uh ok, which leads me to another question. Does saying Extra Extra read all about carry any weight?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Hiya S4,
So many people of experience as well as you & me have the answer to lifes mystery.???
I was involved to be the guardian of the mystery
of CHRIST...well... anybody want to stand up!!!
Is The Mystery True???
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sky4it
The songremains:
So many people of experience as well as you & me have the answer to lifes mystery.???
Well no I suppose we dont. It doesn't hurt once in a while to have a bowl of soup and say that while it isn't everything it sure tastes good. I guess that kinda sums up my "theology" and I dont even like that word. If life is like a box of choclates, I dont see why the Bible can be a nice bowl of soup.
:)-->
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Is the mystery true...
i think about that for some reason i wake up every day
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socks
TSRTS, is that like RC, Roman Catholic?
Nope, I'm not wc. I was in the wc program though, 4th. That was a long time ago. Have we passed paths previously?
:)--> Or do you just find my replies incomprehensibly reprehensible? 
:D-->
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