I am not answering for danny but I agree about the war and Gods.
many wars have a religous base line.
who is your God?who does he love ? we do not believe in that one has caused many many wars and murders.
think about it just for a second today we are involved in a war about a nation believing in a God that tells them we are an evil people (americans) working for their idea of the anti God.
all gods take a faith all of them the question is what is genuine faith in which God isnt it?
it is the basic searching of mankind and much blood has been shed over this ideal.
Can someone here email me so I can email them a reply to post to John in response to the reply he emails to someone else to post here in response to us?
Cracking me up, Dan! You can either spare the middleman, and email John yourself at JALCES@aol.com , or you can email me at shazdancer@danceart.net (this same email is in my profile). I replied to John myself and hope he will respond in the next couple of days.
quote:In JAL's post he said the adversary saw that VP put together a package of biblical truth that worked for people or something like that. That's a good point.
Johniam that's not a point at all - it's a presumption. Anyone could make the same claim about their neat little religious package when it is attacked or when it fails.
quote:These people who have to know what every theologian on earth says about every scripture never get around to actually DOING anything with the word.
How do you know what "these people" do or don't do? How much time have you spent with "these people"? Seems like you are drawing a conclusion based upon - well, nothing really except maybe Wierwillian and related religious propaganda that says that "theology" is bad.
How many widows did TWI attend to? How many poor/needy did they cloth and feed?
What are the folks associated with CES "DOING"? Is the "doing" just getting people into the "Word" according to CES so they can buy tape and classes so they can get others into the word according to CES and buy tapes and classes? Or is there a higher purpose? - Like actually helping folks in need?
quote:...Either He's real or He ain't. True, I can't prove that the God I believe in exists, but neither can you prove He doesn't.
I can not prove or disprove the "God" that YOU believe in exists no more than I can prove or disprove the god of my understanding exists.I also have my own understanding of god.
"Either He's real or He Ain't.", is black and white and makes for a very complicated decision because ya left out the middle, "maybe maybe not" and all that goes inbetween those three words. The view of earth is quite different when observing from the moon's point of view.
quote:Can someone here email me so I can email them a reply to post to John in response to the reply he emails to someone else to post here in response to us?
Ouch! ouch, ouch... major brain cramp...
Yo Dan,
I was just thinking to send the whole "Hi, it's all about Me, John Lynn" to him and then his response back to me and then I will post it here so we can all sit at the guru's em and respond and be done with it. Unless someone has another question.
Okay Okay.... I'll be the courier for three rounds and that's it.
Goey: quote: What are the folks associated with CES "DOING"? Is the "doing" just getting people into the "Word" according to CES so they can buy tape and classes so they can get others into the word according to CES and buy tapes and classes? Or is there a higher purpose? - Like actually helping folks in need?
Nobody can do it all. Even Jesus had time constraints. One major complaint here about TWI is that they taught us to disrespect traditional Christianity and its forms. But aren't you basically doing the same thing when your knee jerk reaction is to attack anyone who appears to praise any "form" of TWI. What's wrong with having a "package of biblical truth" in class form? JAL's right! Thousands of people WERE helped by TWI. Nothing wrong with what Mother Teresa did as far as I know but Jesus never said that widows, poor, and needy are the only ones who need God's word.
quote:Goey: quote: What are the folks associated with CES "DOING"? Is the "doing" just getting people into the "Word" according to CES so they can buy tape and classes so they can get others into the word according to CES and buy tapes and classes? Or is there a higher purpose? - Like actually helping folks in need?
Nobody can do it all. Even Jesus had time constraints. One major complaint here about TWI is that they taught us to disrespect traditional Christianity and its forms. But aren't you basically doing the same thing when your knee jerk reaction is to attack anyone who appears to praise any "form" of TWI. What's wrong with having a "package of biblical truth" in class form? JAL's right! Thousands of people WERE helped by TWI. Nothing wrong with what Mother Teresa did as far as I know but Jesus never said that widows, poor, and needy are the only ones who need God's word.
No one can do it all? -- Now that's a non-answer/dodge if I have ever seen one.
I am not "attacking" CES, but rather asking a legitimate question. Have they taken the same stand as TWI and rejected the concept of helping folks with physical/emotional needs? Do they, like TWI, think that the only way to truly help folks is by giving them "The Word" like it has not been known since the first century?
Johniam, this could only really be (mis)construed as an "attack" if the answer is a defensive yes. Is that the answer?
BTW the "form" of TWI that I am complaining about is their blatant rejection of the Words of Jesus Christ in regards to helping people with their physical/emotional needs, errantly believing and teaching that a class or a tape that teaches "The Word" is the solution to all human needs.
No one, and certainly not me,(as you have implied) has said here that Jesus said that "widows, poor, and needy are the only ones who need God's word." - that is missing the point completely - what I am saying is that scripture alone is never enough. People need have other needs as well. And if CES or any other Christian organization is promoting a notion that denies or ignores these oither needs, then my assessment is that the organization is of men and not "of God".
Copyright Ice Nine Publishing; used by permission.
"Standing on the moon
With nothing left to do
A lovely view of heaven
But I'd rather be with you - be with you"
But I'd rather be with you
An emotionally charged line, often sung over and over by Garcia in concert. Proposed by some as an appropriate epitaph for him. See Stanley Mouse's art which uses this line as a title.
And this note from a reader:
Subject: Standing on the Moon
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 01:48:52 -0500
From: Djhegland@aol.com
Hi. Here's a thought about the "I'd rather be with you" coda in Standing on the Moon. I was performing a solo acoustic rendition of the song between sets of my own band, and the particular night when this hit me was one of our all-time best gigs. It was an outdoor scene with a fairly large and intense crowd. When I got to the "I'd rather be with you coda", it occurred to me that I would rather be out in the audience enjoying the show -- even though playing live music is my favorite thing in the world. The thing about performing live music is that you can only experience your own performance in two ways -- on stage and on tape. I suddenly felt that what Hunter/Garcia might have meant was that being on stage is so completely different from being in the crowd that one might just as well be standing on the moon -- that's how far away it seems sometimes. Just think -- the Grateful Dead provided all of us with a truly amazing experience for 30 years, and Jerry, as well as BobBillMickeyPhil, NEVER got to experience the thing that we all loved so much. They experienced something quite different.
********************************************
Johniam,
quote:
Song: quote: The view of earth is quite different when observing from the moon's point of view.
You're on the moon?
Nopper Johniam, I am not on the moon except from the point of view
of a point of view as
point of views go ya know. As even quoted from above.
Goey: quote: BTW the "form" of TWI that I am complaining about is their blatant rejection of the Words of Jesus Christ in regards to helping people with their physical/emotional needs, errantly believing and teaching that a class or a tape that teaches "The Word" is the solution to all human needs.
I don't think TWI necessarily taught that their package was the solution to all human needs. Perhaps it evolved into that but VPW never said anything like that in PFAL. Consider George Meuller. He didn't try to do it all. With his education he could have done many more self serving things and made more money. He "specialized" in ministering to orphans.
I'm just saying that just because TWI/Ces etc. have marketing in their system doesn't mean they never truly helped anyone in a Christian way.
Okay, here's my follow-up email to John (in boldface), and his response:
Dear John,
Thanks for your reply. I did post it on Greasespotcafe, and it has gotten a fair number of replies, mostly from people who question the doctrine taught at CES. (Which reminds me -- why the name change?)
I have just a few more questions and comments, if you would be so kind to listen....
You mentioned the "heart of the organization [TWI] going south" before you left. I would put to you that the organization was pretty corrupt right from the beginning, we just didn't know it. Wierwille plagiarized Kenyon, Stiles, and Bullinger in his books. His adultery was constant. His insistance on special privileges in the name of "protocol" was evident. His temper tantrums were legendary. He drank to excess frequently. I have trouble respecting a man who claims that God gave him an abundance of revelation, while all the while his lifestyle is less than I would expect of any decent man, let alone a man of God. His mess went far beyond the category of "for all have sinned." He lived in sin.
One of the things that contributed to corruption at the top levels was a lack of accountability. Underlings were not to question the men that God had put over them -- in fact, many were told that they would be "blessed" for obeying, even if the leader was WRONG. So my question to you is, have you found a way to avoid this pitfall; are the heads of your organization accountable to anyone?
Another thing that I see contributed to bad relationships between top leaders and followers in The Way was arrogance. A pecking order developed (PFAL grad, Advanced Class grad, Corps, clergy, Trustee) and many of those in the upper echelons felt entitled to lord it over those below. Nametag envy. It was one of the reasons that I DIDN'T want to go Corps, I didn't want to be on a pedestal, felt I shouldn't be. So what is your organization doing to prevent having its leaders treated differently than the rank and file?
There was also arrogance in our knowledge of the Bible versus the rest of Christianity's. I hear some of that in your response to me. We may have to agree to disagree, but I have found plenty of people who believe that the Bible is inerrant, and minutely accurate. Some I met while I was still "in." I remember reading the brochure for Oral Roberts University: one of the qualifications for admission was that the student must speak in tongues. The page expounding on it could have fit right into PFAL. That was in 1974. I have since been impressed by the lives of many people, both Christian and non-Christian, who exhibit more godliness than I saw in many people who were supposed to "know the Word." So what is your organization doing to teach and exemplify humility?
My next question has more to do with purpose. The Way taught about a relationship with the heavenly Father. Well and good. So then what about this life? There is a lot of need. What does your organization do to help people in THIS life?
Lastly, I can't let you go without asking you about Momentus, which I understand was promoted by members of CES. Descriptions I have read on CES describe it as a sort of confrontational encounter session, a kind of actors' workshop intent on getting to core feelings and beliefs. Could you talk about the program and CES's involvement in it?
Thanks for taking the time, John -- but hey, if the purpose of your group is to lead people to an accurate knowledge of God, I can see no better use of your time!
Regards,
Sharon
Hi Sharon,
God bless you. I'm happy to answer your questions, and I do hope it is profitable for you and others. I do hope you will post this reply also.
As for those who "question the doctrine taught by CES," my first question to them is: Which of our books/tapes have you read/heard? And then: At what point, and how, in that book/tape did we deviate from what the Word of God says? We're right here, and willing to entertain the answers to such questions.
Why the name change? Because "CES" no longer represents what our "full service" ministry is doing. Here's a link to back issues of The Sower--click on the September 2003 issue for the explanation.
As per 1 Cor. 11:17 (NIV), there was a point at which TWI, overall (though that is impossible to measure exactly) went from doing more good than harm to doing "more harm than good." If I had to set a date, I'd say 1979. But even after that, many people received incredible deliverance because the Word of God was often taught accurately and powerfully, and many people in leadership positions loved people with the love of God.
VPW will stand before the Lord Jesus like everyone else, and he will be fairly judged for both the good and the bad in his life. One of the ways that Satan has tricked countless ex-Way folks is to get them to backlash against the kinds of sins you mentioned and throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. That is, "VPW was a bum; he couldn't have taught much that wasright on with God." Sorry, but the accuracy of one's teaching can be rightly judged only by the Word, not by his behavior.
In that vein, Philippians 1:15-18 is a fairly shocking passage of Scripture. It clearly implies that if God had to choose between a person with wrong motives teaching truth and a person with right motives teaching error, He'd choose the former. Why? Because even if the teacher walked offstage and robbed a bank, his audience could still apply the truth they heard! Obviously God's goal is to get people with right motives teaching truth. Is it really arrogant for me to say that I know many such people in STFI/CES? I don't think so.
That passage, and countless others, of course, show clearly that God is HEAVILY invested in His Word. Because there is such a lack of knowledge ofit on the earth, He does everything He can to help/heal/straighten out anyone who is teaching it accurately. Yes, there can come a point when that person gets so far out that God cannot help him.
Speaking of backlash, one response to the profligacy of many TWI leaders is that some former followers, like my old New York Marathon buddy Vince Finnegan, have adopted the false doctrine that a Christian can "reject"(and thus lose) his salvation. Hello-o? It wouldn't be "salvation" if you could lose it. Terribly underestimating God's grace and mercy, and contradicting a vast number of clear verses in the Bible (especially the truth about being born again of incorruptible seed--how can you lose seed?), adherents to this practically debilitating lie are arguing for a lesser possibility than the glorious truth that God sets forth about what we have in Christ.
In that vein, here's another shocking passage--Galatians 1:6-9. God minces no words about what He thinks of "another gospel," that is, salvation by works. That, by the way, is the hallmark of every false religion--Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Roman Catholicism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormomism, et al.Only Christianity, which is not a religion, teaches salvation by grace through faith in the work of Jesus Christ. Amen.
Yes, there was very little true accountability among the leadership ofTWI--I was one of those whom few people ever confronted (and not because I was always right!). Once again, the basis of wrong practice is wrong doctrine. Because there was no teaching about an intimate, personal relationship with Jesus as Lord on a daily basis, and no teaching about facing the "sin that dwells in us (who would want to face it without Jesus?)," and the erroneous teaching that the Bema is for rewards only (not so--all unconfessed sin will still be "on the books," and will be brought to light), sin abounded.
Excuse me--I was "in The Way" about as much as anyone. Therefore, I recognize the evils, errors, and pitfalls very well. So do those in the STFI/CES servant/leadership nucleus with me. NOW HEAR THIS: we therefore havea proportionately GREAT desire NOT TO REPEAT THOSE ERRORS! (CES tape: What is Christian Leadership?)
During these past 17+ years, a number of people have asked the same question you did: "What is going to stop CES from becoming like TWI?" My first answer: YOU!!! How so? Because we value people's individuality, and encourage them to speak up if they do not like something. That doesn't mean wewill agree with them, but they know we will not treat them badly if they disagree with us. Another answer to that question is--correct teaching about authority (CES tape: A Biblical View of Authority) in the Body of Christ. Yes, there is authority, but all authority is relative to thelordship of Jesus Christ, and subject to his ultimate authority.
We have no "rank and file," no "pecking order," and no "pedestals." Why? Because there is no such thing in the Word, and we teach the Word. We do have nametages at our events, but they are all the same color!
As for STFI/CES, I'd say that those who have made the effort to get upclose and personal with us know that the nucleus of our servant/leadership aggressively holds one another accountable, but honestly, I could never adequately express how true that is--you gotta be there. My own leave-of-absence in 2001, mandated by my closest friends, is an example of our refusal to compromise the standard of the Word. This is not a "good old boy" organization.
Arrogance: "a genuine or assumed feeling of superiority that shows itself in an overbearing manner or attitude or in excessive claims of position,dignity, or power or that unduly exalts one's own worth or importance." No one with a real relationship with Jesus Christ as Lord, who is surrounded by people also trying to become like him, will manifest arrogance. In fact, knowing Jesus as the Savior from the sin that dwells in us brings you face to face with our own weaknesses day by day, and keep us in the light.That kind of "humiliation" drives one to Jesus, where he finds a genuine, godly sense of self-worth.
I was surprised, and saddened, to see that you seem to think that one's relationship with his heavenly Father has nothing to do with this life. Gosh, that's what it's all about (see 2 Pet. 1:2-4: esp. "...all things that pertain to life and godliness..."). The whole point of knowing God and the Lord Jesus Christ is to shine as a light in this dark, sick world, living with joy and peace amidst trials and tribulation by holding to the Hope of a glorious future.(I think that JAL stops just shy of saying what johniam was talking about, that his organization just teaches the Bible, and has nothing in place to formally cope with those in need.)
OK, that's it for now. Go ahead and post this, and I'll get to your other questions later.
quote:In that vein, Philippians 1:15-18 is a fairly shocking passage of Scripture. It clearly implies that if God had to choose between a person with wrong motives teaching truth and a person with right motives teaching error, He'd choose the former.
-->
No, wait....
;)-->
Phil. 1:15-19
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
-----------------------------------
It doesn't imply that at all. Anyone who can read Ye Olde English can see that.
What it says is that despite the contentious efforts of people who took advantage of his imprisonment to advance themselves and their teaching, Christ would be still preached and for even that much, Paul was grateful. But Paul doesn't say that given a choice, God would prefer that or that God would make that choice.
I'd put it under "lemonade out of lemons". It's a strong reminder that we can, at the least, be thankful to some extent for even a self serving "teacher" who teaches about Jesus Christ under pretense and for the wrong reasons. You'd think God would want better for his children though.
I gotcha, socks. Paul seems to say, "I'm just glad they're talking about Christ, so now I can come in and explain about him in more detail."
But what about the guy who, in JAL's words, is "a person with right motives teaching error?" I'm thinking of Apollos of Alexandria (Acts 18), who preached what he knew, but only knew from water baptism. Sounds to me like the saints took him under their wing. Surely doesn't sound like they, or God for that matter, preferred right doctrine over right intention.
quote:Originally posted by shazdancer:Okay, here's my follow-up email to John (in _boldface_), and his response:
That passage, and countless others, of course, show clearly that God is HEAVILY invested in His Word. Because there is such a lack of knowledge of it on the earth, He does everything He can to help/heal/straighten out anyone who is teaching it accurately. Yes, there can come a point when that person gets so far out that God cannot help him.
quote:Speaking of backlash, one response to the profligacy of many TWI leaders is that some former followers, like my old New York Marathon buddy Vince Finnegan, have adopted the
false doctrine that a Christian can "reject"(and thus lose) his salvation. Hello-o? It wouldn't be "salvation" if you could lose it. Terribly underestimating God's grace and mercy, and contradicting a vast number of clear verses in the Bible (especially the truth about being born again of incorruptible seed--how can you lose seed?), adherents to this practically debilitating lie are arguing for a lesser possibility than the glorious truth that God sets forth about what we have in Christ.
John,
So then is the wrong teaching done chargeable to death, as in so far out God cannot help? And if this is so then how does the truth of God's underestimating grace and mercy fit in? -->
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johniam
Danny: quote:many wars have resulted from words like you have exspresed.
Which wars?
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mj412
I am not answering for danny but I agree about the war and Gods.
many wars have a religous base line.
who is your God?who does he love ? we do not believe in that one has caused many many wars and murders.
think about it just for a second today we are involved in a war about a nation believing in a God that tells them we are an evil people (americans) working for their idea of the anti God.
all gods take a faith all of them the question is what is genuine faith in which God isnt it?
it is the basic searching of mankind and much blood has been shed over this ideal.
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TheInvisibleDan
Can someone here email me so I can email them a reply to post to John in response to the reply he emails to someone else to post here in response to us?
Ouch! ouch, ouch... major brain cramp...
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shazdancer
Cracking me up, Dan! You can either spare the middleman, and email John yourself at JALCES@aol.com , or you can email me at shazdancer@danceart.net (this same email is in my profile). I replied to John myself and hope he will respond in the next couple of days.
Regards,
Shaz
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Goey
Posted by Johniam:
Johniam that's not a point at all - it's a presumption. Anyone could make the same claim about their neat little religious package when it is attacked or when it fails.
How do you know what "these people" do or don't do? How much time have you spent with "these people"? Seems like you are drawing a conclusion based upon - well, nothing really except maybe Wierwillian and related religious propaganda that says that "theology" is bad.How many widows did TWI attend to? How many poor/needy did they cloth and feed?
What are the folks associated with CES "DOING"? Is the "doing" just getting people into the "Word" according to CES so they can buy tape and classes so they can get others into the word according to CES and buy tapes and classes? Or is there a higher purpose? - Like actually helping folks in need?
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def59
It wasn't until I got out of TWI that I understood that ALL Christians are to help the poor and needy. Even biblical research and teaching ministries.
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JustThinking
Goey,
Good points. Until there is real impact, it's just a marketing business.
It just occurred to me that I can't recall a single time when Jesus told his followers to bring a friend or loved one to the next sermon.
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TheInvisibleDan
Thanks Shaz!
:)-->
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
johniam
I can not prove or disprove the "God" that YOU believe in exists no more than I can prove or disprove the god of my understanding exists.I also have my own understanding of god.
"Either He's real or He Ain't.", is black and white and makes for a very complicated decision because ya left out the middle, "maybe maybe not" and all that goes inbetween those three words. The view of earth is quite different when observing from the moon's point of view.
Dig It
Song
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
TheInvisibleDan
Yo Dan,
I was just thinking to send the whole "Hi, it's all about Me, John Lynn" to him and then his response back to me and then I will post it here so we can all sit at the guru's em and respond and be done with it. Unless someone has another question.
Okay Okay.... I'll be the courier for three rounds and that's it.
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johniam
Goey: quote: How many widows did TWI attend to? How many poor/needy did they cloth and feed?
So how many people did Mother Teresa lead into speaking in tongues?
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johniam
Goey: quote: What are the folks associated with CES "DOING"? Is the "doing" just getting people into the "Word" according to CES so they can buy tape and classes so they can get others into the word according to CES and buy tapes and classes? Or is there a higher purpose? - Like actually helping folks in need?
Nobody can do it all. Even Jesus had time constraints. One major complaint here about TWI is that they taught us to disrespect traditional Christianity and its forms. But aren't you basically doing the same thing when your knee jerk reaction is to attack anyone who appears to praise any "form" of TWI. What's wrong with having a "package of biblical truth" in class form? JAL's right! Thousands of people WERE helped by TWI. Nothing wrong with what Mother Teresa did as far as I know but Jesus never said that widows, poor, and needy are the only ones who need God's word.
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JustThinking
It doesn't matter because LCM said she's not part of the functioning body of Christ anway. ;-)
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johniam
Song: quote: The view of earth is quite different when observing from the moon's point of view.
You're on the moon?
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def59
Song has been lots of places.
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johniam
Song: Check this out.
Standing on the moon
I got no cobweb on my shoe
Standing on the moon
I'm feeling so alone and blue
I see the Gulf of Mexico
As tiny as a tear
The coast of California
Must be somewhere over here - over here
Standing on the moon
I see the battle rage below
Standing on the moon
I see the soldiers come and go
There's a metal flag beside me
Someone planted long ago
Old Glory standing stiffly
Crimson, white and indigo - indigo
I see all of Southeast Asia
I can see El Salvador
I hear the cries of children
And the other songs of war
It's like a mighty melody
That rings down from the sky
Standing here upon the moon
I watch it all roll by - all roll by
Standing on the moon
With nothing else to do
A lovely view of heaven
But I'd rather be with you
Standing on the moon
I see a shadow on the sun
Standing on the moon
The stars go fading one by one
I hear a cry of victory
And another of defeat
A scrap of age old lullaby
Down some forgotten street
Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky
Standing on the moon
With nothing left to do
A lovely view of heaven
But I'd rather be with you - be with you
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Goey
Johniam Posted:
No one can do it all? -- Now that's a non-answer/dodge if I have ever seen one.
I am not "attacking" CES, but rather asking a legitimate question. Have they taken the same stand as TWI and rejected the concept of helping folks with physical/emotional needs? Do they, like TWI, think that the only way to truly help folks is by giving them "The Word" like it has not been known since the first century?
Johniam, this could only really be (mis)construed as an "attack" if the answer is a defensive yes. Is that the answer?
BTW the "form" of TWI that I am complaining about is their blatant rejection of the Words of Jesus Christ in regards to helping people with their physical/emotional needs, errantly believing and teaching that a class or a tape that teaches "The Word" is the solution to all human needs.
No one, and certainly not me,(as you have implied) has said here that Jesus said that "widows, poor, and needy are the only ones who need God's word." - that is missing the point completely - what I am saying is that scripture alone is never enough. People need have other needs as well. And if CES or any other Christian organization is promoting a notion that denies or ignores these oither needs, then my assessment is that the organization is of men and not "of God".
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
"Standing On the Moon"
Words by Robert Hunter; music by Jerry Garcia
Copyright Ice Nine Publishing; used by permission.
"Standing on the moon
With nothing left to do
A lovely view of heaven
But I'd rather be with you - be with you"
But I'd rather be with you
An emotionally charged line, often sung over and over by Garcia in concert. Proposed by some as an appropriate epitaph for him. See Stanley Mouse's art which uses this line as a title.
And this note from a reader:
Subject: Standing on the Moon
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 01:48:52 -0500
From: Djhegland@aol.com
Hi. Here's a thought about the "I'd rather be with you" coda in Standing on the Moon. I was performing a solo acoustic rendition of the song between sets of my own band, and the particular night when this hit me was one of our all-time best gigs. It was an outdoor scene with a fairly large and intense crowd. When I got to the "I'd rather be with you coda", it occurred to me that I would rather be out in the audience enjoying the show -- even though playing live music is my favorite thing in the world. The thing about performing live music is that you can only experience your own performance in two ways -- on stage and on tape. I suddenly felt that what Hunter/Garcia might have meant was that being on stage is so completely different from being in the crowd that one might just as well be standing on the moon -- that's how far away it seems sometimes. Just think -- the Grateful Dead provided all of us with a truly amazing experience for 30 years, and Jerry, as well as BobBillMickeyPhil, NEVER got to experience the thing that we all loved so much. They experienced something quite different.
********************************************
Johniam,
Nopper Johniam, I am not on the moon except from the point of view
of a point of view as
point of views go ya know. As even quoted from above.
Rok On
Song
BTW: I too dig the DEAD!!!
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Def59
I have forgotten more places I have been than I know.
Hell, I have even penned a missing persons report on me.
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johniam
Goey: quote: BTW the "form" of TWI that I am complaining about is their blatant rejection of the Words of Jesus Christ in regards to helping people with their physical/emotional needs, errantly believing and teaching that a class or a tape that teaches "The Word" is the solution to all human needs.
I don't think TWI necessarily taught that their package was the solution to all human needs. Perhaps it evolved into that but VPW never said anything like that in PFAL. Consider George Meuller. He didn't try to do it all. With his education he could have done many more self serving things and made more money. He "specialized" in ministering to orphans.
I'm just saying that just because TWI/Ces etc. have marketing in their system doesn't mean they never truly helped anyone in a Christian way.
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shazdancer
Okay, here's my follow-up email to John (in boldface), and his response:
Dear John,
Thanks for your reply. I did post it on Greasespotcafe, and it has gotten a fair number of replies, mostly from people who question the doctrine taught at CES. (Which reminds me -- why the name change?)
I have just a few more questions and comments, if you would be so kind to listen....
You mentioned the "heart of the organization [TWI] going south" before you left. I would put to you that the organization was pretty corrupt right from the beginning, we just didn't know it. Wierwille plagiarized Kenyon, Stiles, and Bullinger in his books. His adultery was constant. His insistance on special privileges in the name of "protocol" was evident. His temper tantrums were legendary. He drank to excess frequently. I have trouble respecting a man who claims that God gave him an abundance of revelation, while all the while his lifestyle is less than I would expect of any decent man, let alone a man of God. His mess went far beyond the category of "for all have sinned." He lived in sin.
One of the things that contributed to corruption at the top levels was a lack of accountability. Underlings were not to question the men that God had put over them -- in fact, many were told that they would be "blessed" for obeying, even if the leader was WRONG. So my question to you is, have you found a way to avoid this pitfall; are the heads of your organization accountable to anyone?
Another thing that I see contributed to bad relationships between top leaders and followers in The Way was arrogance. A pecking order developed (PFAL grad, Advanced Class grad, Corps, clergy, Trustee) and many of those in the upper echelons felt entitled to lord it over those below. Nametag envy. It was one of the reasons that I DIDN'T want to go Corps, I didn't want to be on a pedestal, felt I shouldn't be. So what is your organization doing to prevent having its leaders treated differently than the rank and file?
There was also arrogance in our knowledge of the Bible versus the rest of Christianity's. I hear some of that in your response to me. We may have to agree to disagree, but I have found plenty of people who believe that the Bible is inerrant, and minutely accurate. Some I met while I was still "in." I remember reading the brochure for Oral Roberts University: one of the qualifications for admission was that the student must speak in tongues. The page expounding on it could have fit right into PFAL. That was in 1974. I have since been impressed by the lives of many people, both Christian and non-Christian, who exhibit more godliness than I saw in many people who were supposed to "know the Word." So what is your organization doing to teach and exemplify humility?
My next question has more to do with purpose. The Way taught about a relationship with the heavenly Father. Well and good. So then what about this life? There is a lot of need. What does your organization do to help people in THIS life?
Lastly, I can't let you go without asking you about Momentus, which I understand was promoted by members of CES. Descriptions I have read on CES describe it as a sort of confrontational encounter session, a kind of actors' workshop intent on getting to core feelings and beliefs. Could you talk about the program and CES's involvement in it?
Thanks for taking the time, John -- but hey, if the purpose of your group is to lead people to an accurate knowledge of God, I can see no better use of your time!
Regards,
Sharon
Hi Sharon,
God bless you. I'm happy to answer your questions, and I do hope it is profitable for you and others. I do hope you will post this reply also.
As for those who "question the doctrine taught by CES," my first question to them is: Which of our books/tapes have you read/heard? And then: At what point, and how, in that book/tape did we deviate from what the Word of God says? We're right here, and willing to entertain the answers to such questions.
Why the name change? Because "CES" no longer represents what our "full service" ministry is doing. Here's a link to back issues of The Sower--click on the September 2003 issue for the explanation.
http://christianeducational.org/ceslibrary.htm
As per 1 Cor. 11:17 (NIV), there was a point at which TWI, overall (though that is impossible to measure exactly) went from doing more good than harm to doing "more harm than good." If I had to set a date, I'd say 1979. But even after that, many people received incredible deliverance because the Word of God was often taught accurately and powerfully, and many people in leadership positions loved people with the love of God.
VPW will stand before the Lord Jesus like everyone else, and he will be fairly judged for both the good and the bad in his life. One of the ways that Satan has tricked countless ex-Way folks is to get them to backlash against the kinds of sins you mentioned and throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. That is, "VPW was a bum; he couldn't have taught much that wasright on with God." Sorry, but the accuracy of one's teaching can be rightly judged only by the Word, not by his behavior.
In that vein, Philippians 1:15-18 is a fairly shocking passage of Scripture. It clearly implies that if God had to choose between a person with wrong motives teaching truth and a person with right motives teaching error, He'd choose the former. Why? Because even if the teacher walked offstage and robbed a bank, his audience could still apply the truth they heard! Obviously God's goal is to get people with right motives teaching truth. Is it really arrogant for me to say that I know many such people in STFI/CES? I don't think so.
That passage, and countless others, of course, show clearly that God is HEAVILY invested in His Word. Because there is such a lack of knowledge ofit on the earth, He does everything He can to help/heal/straighten out anyone who is teaching it accurately. Yes, there can come a point when that person gets so far out that God cannot help him.
Speaking of backlash, one response to the profligacy of many TWI leaders is that some former followers, like my old New York Marathon buddy Vince Finnegan, have adopted the false doctrine that a Christian can "reject"(and thus lose) his salvation. Hello-o? It wouldn't be "salvation" if you could lose it. Terribly underestimating God's grace and mercy, and contradicting a vast number of clear verses in the Bible (especially the truth about being born again of incorruptible seed--how can you lose seed?), adherents to this practically debilitating lie are arguing for a lesser possibility than the glorious truth that God sets forth about what we have in Christ.
In that vein, here's another shocking passage--Galatians 1:6-9. God minces no words about what He thinks of "another gospel," that is, salvation by works. That, by the way, is the hallmark of every false religion--Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Roman Catholicism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormomism, et al.Only Christianity, which is not a religion, teaches salvation by grace through faith in the work of Jesus Christ. Amen.
Yes, there was very little true accountability among the leadership ofTWI--I was one of those whom few people ever confronted (and not because I was always right!). Once again, the basis of wrong practice is wrong doctrine. Because there was no teaching about an intimate, personal relationship with Jesus as Lord on a daily basis, and no teaching about facing the "sin that dwells in us (who would want to face it without Jesus?)," and the erroneous teaching that the Bema is for rewards only (not so--all unconfessed sin will still be "on the books," and will be brought to light), sin abounded.
Excuse me--I was "in The Way" about as much as anyone. Therefore, I recognize the evils, errors, and pitfalls very well. So do those in the STFI/CES servant/leadership nucleus with me. NOW HEAR THIS: we therefore havea proportionately GREAT desire NOT TO REPEAT THOSE ERRORS! (CES tape: What is Christian Leadership?)
During these past 17+ years, a number of people have asked the same question you did: "What is going to stop CES from becoming like TWI?" My first answer: YOU!!! How so? Because we value people's individuality, and encourage them to speak up if they do not like something. That doesn't mean wewill agree with them, but they know we will not treat them badly if they disagree with us. Another answer to that question is--correct teaching about authority (CES tape: A Biblical View of Authority) in the Body of Christ. Yes, there is authority, but all authority is relative to thelordship of Jesus Christ, and subject to his ultimate authority.
We have no "rank and file," no "pecking order," and no "pedestals." Why? Because there is no such thing in the Word, and we teach the Word. We do have nametages at our events, but they are all the same color!
As for STFI/CES, I'd say that those who have made the effort to get upclose and personal with us know that the nucleus of our servant/leadership aggressively holds one another accountable, but honestly, I could never adequately express how true that is--you gotta be there. My own leave-of-absence in 2001, mandated by my closest friends, is an example of our refusal to compromise the standard of the Word. This is not a "good old boy" organization.
Arrogance: "a genuine or assumed feeling of superiority that shows itself in an overbearing manner or attitude or in excessive claims of position,dignity, or power or that unduly exalts one's own worth or importance." No one with a real relationship with Jesus Christ as Lord, who is surrounded by people also trying to become like him, will manifest arrogance. In fact, knowing Jesus as the Savior from the sin that dwells in us brings you face to face with our own weaknesses day by day, and keep us in the light.That kind of "humiliation" drives one to Jesus, where he finds a genuine, godly sense of self-worth.
I was surprised, and saddened, to see that you seem to think that one's relationship with his heavenly Father has nothing to do with this life. Gosh, that's what it's all about (see 2 Pet. 1:2-4: esp. "...all things that pertain to life and godliness..."). The whole point of knowing God and the Lord Jesus Christ is to shine as a light in this dark, sick world, living with joy and peace amidst trials and tribulation by holding to the Hope of a glorious future.(I think that JAL stops just shy of saying what johniam was talking about, that his organization just teaches the Bible, and has nothing in place to formally cope with those in need.)
OK, that's it for now. Go ahead and post this, and I'll get to your other questions later.
Much love to you and all the Greasespotians,
John
Be sure to visit us online at:
http://www.cesonline.org/
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/
http://www.truthortradition.com/
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socks
No, wait....
Phil. 1:15-19
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
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It doesn't imply that at all. Anyone who can read Ye Olde English can see that.
What it says is that despite the contentious efforts of people who took advantage of his imprisonment to advance themselves and their teaching, Christ would be still preached and for even that much, Paul was grateful. But Paul doesn't say that given a choice, God would prefer that or that God would make that choice.
I'd put it under "lemonade out of lemons". It's a strong reminder that we can, at the least, be thankful to some extent for even a self serving "teacher" who teaches about Jesus Christ under pretense and for the wrong reasons. You'd think God would want better for his children though.
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shazdancer
I gotcha, socks. Paul seems to say, "I'm just glad they're talking about Christ, so now I can come in and explain about him in more detail."
But what about the guy who, in JAL's words, is "a person with right motives teaching error?" I'm thinking of Apollos of Alexandria (Acts 18), who preached what he knew, but only knew from water baptism. Sounds to me like the saints took him under their wing. Surely doesn't sound like they, or God for that matter, preferred right doctrine over right intention.
Regards,
Shaz
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houseisarockin
John,
So then is the wrong teaching done chargeable to death, as in so far out God cannot help? And if this is so then how does the truth of God's underestimating grace and mercy fit in?
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