UH, I've got no argument with your having no argument, well, except for this. If their "doctrine" claims to be without contradiction, and it abounds with inconsistencies or, dare we say it, contradictions, doesn't that raise an eyebrow or two? Moreover, shouldn't it? I mean, if you're going to bother looking it over at all, what is the point except to ascertain its outlook, to assess it on its own merits and demerits?
Even if we were talking about some religion you never heard of, if it tells you the grass is blue and the sky is green, that tells you something - at the very least, they're color-blind.
I realize this was a casual email to shazdancer, and not a carefully edited publication, but should (presumably) basic truths be so nuanced or complex they can't be casually expressed? CES would have us believe their doctrine is simple and obvious.
when Jesus said some standing there would be alive when the kingdom came,
Doesnt that resolve itself from what Christ said what the kingdom of God would be? Ie(love joy and peace in the Holy Ghost), thus fullfilling when people recieved the Holy Spirit? I didnt remember if the scripture used the word Kingdom or not and didnt look it up either.
Yeah ok Jay. Good ole Jay, I think one of his cronies (Hwooders) got me kicked out of the ESPN sports board room for posting paradies ( funny stuff too) about obnoxious Hollywood types. Can't repost it here, (its not profane) but rather blightful.
A couple things I wanted to say to u Satori and yeah this is off topic)
My experience with TWI was limited. About the only thing it cost me was 15 credits of college Greek and some heartache.
I did however have a similar experience (3-4 years) with a Pentacostal Bible School. It seems Ronald McDevil (hes everywhere hes everywhere) started tempting Miss Pastor Wretched (Dairy) Queen. Burger Boy stopped by one day(and not for a barfait either), and the Pastor went and did the wild monkey thing, even while she was preaching. While needless to say, there were no more biscuits to serve.
My question to you is this Satori ( and I dont mean to pry dont answer if yah dont want to). Where are your thoughts today as far as God is concerned and your own beliefs? I know you have a razor edge for picking out things you dont like, but what do you believe and like?
Has anybody noticed that in the 3 gospels where Jesus said some would not taste of death until they saw the kingdom of God etc. the very next thing that happens is James John and Peter accompany Jesus to the mount of transfiguration where they SEE a vision of Jesus in his glory?
In JAL's post he said the adversary saw that VP put together a package of biblical truth that worked for people or something like that. That's a good point. These people who have to know what every theologian on earth says about every scripture never get around to actually DOING anything with the word.
when Jesus said some standing there would be alive when the kingdom came,
Doesnt that resolve itself from what Christ said what the kingdom of God would be? Ie(love joy and peace in the Holy Ghost), thus fullfilling when people recieved the Holy Spirit? I didnt remember if the scripture used the word Kingdom or not and didnt look it up either.
I don't know. I've heard a number of explanations. My problem with the CES explanation is that it excuses a false prophecy. It's dressed up real nice, but it excuses a false prophecy nonetheless. Other explanations try to show that it's not a false prophecy. I don't know which of those explanations is true, or if there's another explanation that settles the whole matter. The only thing I know is that I'm not at all satisfied with the CES answer.
My question to you is this Satori ( and I dont mean to pry dont answer if yah dont want to). Where are your thoughts today as far as God is concerned and your own beliefs? I know you have a razor edge for picking out things you dont like, but what do you believe and like?
sky4it, this thread isn't really about me. I'll say this. Religions (and other belief systems, like political identities) succeed or fail because they "resonate" with us, regardless of whether they may be proven true or false.
Certain things "resonate" with us because they reflect aspects of the human mind, which seeks to control the external world for its survival. The survival instinct is quite powerful, as you know. Even our taboo against killing is suspended if our survival is the purpose.
Look below the surface at the elements of religion or politics and you will find parallels with maternity, paternity, family bonds, sexuality, and social structures resembling animal (herd, pack, hive) behavior. The particular details are unimportant, unless they are symbolic ("archetypes") of those basic human experiences and needs.
If any faith is represented as "truth," we need to ask, "What makes this 'truth' different from every other faith, which makes the same claim?" We need to ask with the commitment to discover the truth about our "Truth."
Anyway, that's enough of a derail. All behavioral motivation arises from basic human nature. Look closely enough at the behavior (or belief) and you can often find the "fingerprint" of the motivator(s). What do I believe? There is truth. Whether or not it is knowable, and how much is knowable, is another matter.
Look closely enough at the behavior (or belief) and you can often find the "fingerprint" of the motivator(s). What do I believe? There is truth. Whether or not it is knowable, and how much is knowable, is another matter.
I think you kind of summed up my theology quite well.
I also think God is far more interested in developing character, then he is about having us charachterize his behavior with a well defined set of "nounciples". Cool word by the way.
I always ask myself what is the practicality of a certain matter? With some doctrines is it refreshing to count your footsteps in order to walk? lmao No, It only gets wierd when someone tells you you must count your footsteps in order that you may walk. (Believing = recieving) If I applied that to every thing I did everyday I would go nuts.
What kind of beleif system it is that all we have at best is books about it that are 2000 yrs old when they didn't even have pen and paper? What kind of god is it that would want us to even understand it?
All I could think about was how time consuming and energy sucking it is to try to follow such circular thinking.
Ya know?
For example, that stuff about the author using linguistic hints (or something like that) to give clues about what was being said.
WTF????? So it's no longer be like little children, but it's now who can play "What's My Line" the best. -->
The nit picking...such a waste of time and effort and brains and sacred breath.
I loved what laleo said. Simple.
And what about this whole mentality that it wasn't the truth that twi taught that hurt people's lives, but the error...the truth really blessed us all?
Um....the really good lies are the ones that mix in enough truth to make it believable....ask Eve...especially ask her if she got blessed by the truth that her deceiver mixed in with the lies.
(Song in my head right now: I can see clearly now the rain is gone. No obstacles are in my way. It's gonna be a bright, bright, bright sunshiny day.)
Satori: Sounds like you're trying to avoid admitting that you don't believe in God. I mean, if there is no God, then what you say is true, but if there IS...
if u read mine you might come to the same conculion but i do have a profound belief system. it's just not we have been taught cut and dried. is it so very plain in the bible? I would say not. why is there a different brand on every corner? if god really wanted us to know don't you think he could put it in english?
I am saying that, from my understanding of "belief," and what I've seen so far, to "believe" in God is to deny God.
Suppose for a moment the question of your humanity came up, johniam. Are you or aren't you?
Suppose John Lynn steps up to your "defense" and says, "I believe that johniam is human. That is my unshakable belief." Would you feel all warm and fuzzy? Or would you wonder what drugs he was doing?
The point is, for resolving true/false questions, belief is irrelevant. Belief is an unverified assumption. If it's unverified, it's unverified. No one knows that better than one who "believes."
Belief is also a measure of how convinced you are. "I, John Lynn, am convinced that johniam is human." Now there's a real vote of confidence, right?
God and belief are antithetical, johniam. You either know God, or you do not. Belief is a placeholder, nothing more. With belief, you are just walking in the dark, and you don't know if you're talking to God or the lamp post, until you bump into something. Something real.
quote: sky4it, this thread isn't really about me. I'll say this. Religions (and other belief systems, like political identities) succeed or fail because they "resonate" with us, regardless of whether they may be proven true or false.
satori
This thread is about:
Hi! It's the real me - John Lynn
Well at least that's what i thought to understand it was way and about that type of thing ya know?
Intrigueing how the attention seems to shift from "Hi..." to another real person or personS.
Danny: quote:i didn't take his post like that at all.
if u read mine you might come to the same conculion but i do have a profound belief system. it's just not we have been taught cut and dried. is it so very plain in the bible? I would say not. why is there a different brand on every corner? if god really wanted us to know don't you think he could put it in english?
I think God wants people to act on His word. What good does it do God for people to sit around and argue about what his word might mean rather than DO SOMETHING! Nobody knows it all, but sooner or later you gotta make a decision. Otherwise you become like the person with one talent in the parable of the talents in Matt. 25 who buried it in the ground.
Satori: quote:If any faith is represented as "truth," we need to ask, "What makes this 'truth' different from every other faith, which makes the same claim?" We need to ask with the commitment to discover the truth about our "Truth."
That's the same argument put forth in Jesus Christ Superstar. What makes truth truth is God. Either He's real or He ain't. True, I can't prove that the God I believe in exists, but neither can you prove He doesn't.
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satori001
Even if we were talking about some religion you never heard of, if it tells you the grass is blue and the sky is green, that tells you something - at the very least, they're color-blind.
I realize this was a casual email to shazdancer, and not a carefully edited publication, but should (presumably) basic truths be so nuanced or complex they can't be casually expressed? CES would have us believe their doctrine is simple and obvious.
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sky4it
Raf:
Your comments:
when Jesus said some standing there would be alive when the kingdom came,
Doesnt that resolve itself from what Christ said what the kingdom of God would be? Ie(love joy and peace in the Holy Ghost), thus fullfilling when people recieved the Holy Spirit? I didnt remember if the scripture used the word Kingdom or not and didnt look it up either.
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sky4it
satori:
Your too funny, you got a gift for something. You should be writing lines for Jay Leno.
lmao
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satori001
As a matter of fact, I happen to be Jay Leno.
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sky4it
Satori:
Yeah ok Jay. Good ole Jay, I think one of his cronies (Hwooders) got me kicked out of the ESPN sports board room for posting paradies ( funny stuff too) about obnoxious Hollywood types. Can't repost it here, (its not profane) but rather blightful.
A couple things I wanted to say to u Satori and yeah this is off topic)
My experience with TWI was limited. About the only thing it cost me was 15 credits of college Greek and some heartache.
I did however have a similar experience (3-4 years) with a Pentacostal Bible School. It seems Ronald McDevil (hes everywhere hes everywhere) started tempting Miss Pastor Wretched (Dairy) Queen. Burger Boy stopped by one day(and not for a barfait either), and the Pastor went and did the wild monkey thing, even while she was preaching. While needless to say, there were no more biscuits to serve.
My question to you is this Satori ( and I dont mean to pry dont answer if yah dont want to). Where are your thoughts today as far as God is concerned and your own beliefs? I know you have a razor edge for picking out things you dont like, but what do you believe and like?
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johniam
Has anybody noticed that in the 3 gospels where Jesus said some would not taste of death until they saw the kingdom of God etc. the very next thing that happens is James John and Peter accompany Jesus to the mount of transfiguration where they SEE a vision of Jesus in his glory?
In JAL's post he said the adversary saw that VP put together a package of biblical truth that worked for people or something like that. That's a good point. These people who have to know what every theologian on earth says about every scripture never get around to actually DOING anything with the word.
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Raf
I don't know. I've heard a number of explanations. My problem with the CES explanation is that it excuses a false prophecy. It's dressed up real nice, but it excuses a false prophecy nonetheless. Other explanations try to show that it's not a false prophecy. I don't know which of those explanations is true, or if there's another explanation that settles the whole matter. The only thing I know is that I'm not at all satisfied with the CES answer.
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satori001
Certain things "resonate" with us because they reflect aspects of the human mind, which seeks to control the external world for its survival. The survival instinct is quite powerful, as you know. Even our taboo against killing is suspended if our survival is the purpose.
Look below the surface at the elements of religion or politics and you will find parallels with maternity, paternity, family bonds, sexuality, and social structures resembling animal (herd, pack, hive) behavior. The particular details are unimportant, unless they are symbolic ("archetypes") of those basic human experiences and needs.
If any faith is represented as "truth," we need to ask, "What makes this 'truth' different from every other faith, which makes the same claim?" We need to ask with the commitment to discover the truth about our "Truth."
Anyway, that's enough of a derail. All behavioral motivation arises from basic human nature. Look closely enough at the behavior (or belief) and you can often find the "fingerprint" of the motivator(s). What do I believe? There is truth. Whether or not it is knowable, and how much is knowable, is another matter.
Regards...
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imbus
Well said Satori001...another thing to concider in the qwest for...? Truth? No really, you make a good point!
:)-->
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sky4it
Satori:
Your comment:
Look closely enough at the behavior (or belief) and you can often find the "fingerprint" of the motivator(s). What do I believe? There is truth. Whether or not it is knowable, and how much is knowable, is another matter.
I think you kind of summed up my theology quite well.
I also think God is far more interested in developing character, then he is about having us charachterize his behavior with a well defined set of "nounciples". Cool word by the way.
I always ask myself what is the practicality of a certain matter? With some doctrines is it refreshing to count your footsteps in order to walk? lmao No, It only gets wierd when someone tells you you must count your footsteps in order that you may walk. (Believing = recieving) If I applied that to every thing I did everyday I would go nuts.
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Danny
What kind of beleif system it is that all we have at best is books about it that are 2000 yrs old when they didn't even have pen and paper? What kind of god is it that would want us to even understand it?
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excathedra
what does "blightful" mean ?
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CoolWaters
I had a response all ready to go...and then...
All I could think about was how time consuming and energy sucking it is to try to follow such circular thinking.
Ya know?
For example, that stuff about the author using linguistic hints (or something like that) to give clues about what was being said.
WTF????? So it's no longer be like little children, but it's now who can play "What's My Line" the best.
-->
The nit picking...such a waste of time and effort and brains and sacred breath.
I loved what laleo said. Simple.
And what about this whole mentality that it wasn't the truth that twi taught that hurt people's lives, but the error...the truth really blessed us all?
Um....the really good lies are the ones that mix in enough truth to make it believable....ask Eve...especially ask her if she got blessed by the truth that her deceiver mixed in with the lies.
(Song in my head right now: I can see clearly now the rain is gone. No obstacles are in my way. It's gonna be a bright, bright, bright sunshiny day.)
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sky4it
Danny and Coolwaters:
Danny: I think its just a simple system of beliefs.
Coolwaters: The linguistic jack in the box doesn't do it for you either? What's a matter with you bro, its simple gymnastics isnt it?
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johniam
Satori: Sounds like you're trying to avoid admitting that you don't believe in God. I mean, if there is no God, then what you say is true, but if there IS...
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Danny
johnian
i didn't take his post like that at all.
if u read mine you might come to the same conculion but i do have a profound belief system. it's just not we have been taught cut and dried. is it so very plain in the bible? I would say not. why is there a different brand on every corner? if god really wanted us to know don't you think he could put it in english?
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sky4it
Danny:
I didnt come to that conclusion either by reading Satori's comments.
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satori001
"...if there is?" Is that your "if," johniam?
I am saying that, from my understanding of "belief," and what I've seen so far, to "believe" in God is to deny God.
Suppose for a moment the question of your humanity came up, johniam. Are you or aren't you?
Suppose John Lynn steps up to your "defense" and says, "I believe that johniam is human. That is my unshakable belief." Would you feel all warm and fuzzy? Or would you wonder what drugs he was doing?
The point is, for resolving true/false questions, belief is irrelevant. Belief is an unverified assumption. If it's unverified, it's unverified. No one knows that better than one who "believes."
Belief is also a measure of how convinced you are. "I, John Lynn, am convinced that johniam is human." Now there's a real vote of confidence, right?
God and belief are antithetical, johniam. You either know God, or you do not. Belief is a placeholder, nothing more. With belief, you are just walking in the dark, and you don't know if you're talking to God or the lamp post, until you bump into something. Something real.
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sky4it
Satori:
your comment:
I am saying that, from my understanding of "belief," and what I've seen so far, to "believe" in God is to deny God.
Sorry you lost me, I understand the rest of it, but that one I dont follow?
Read my other post to you earlier in the day.
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satori001
Confession of belief yields receipt of nothing.
sky4it, look at my examples once more. Imperfect as they are, I think they make my point.
By the way, I will not be on line for a week or so.
Regards...
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sky4it
Satori:
ok.
Don't stay gone too long, I enjoy your stuff.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
This thread is about:
Hi! It's the real me - John Lynn
Well at least that's what i thought to understand it was way and about that type of thing ya know?
Intrigueing how the attention seems to shift from "Hi..." to another real person or personS.
Many a smooth move going down.
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johniam
Danny: quote:i didn't take his post like that at all.
if u read mine you might come to the same conculion but i do have a profound belief system. it's just not we have been taught cut and dried. is it so very plain in the bible? I would say not. why is there a different brand on every corner? if god really wanted us to know don't you think he could put it in english?
I think God wants people to act on His word. What good does it do God for people to sit around and argue about what his word might mean rather than DO SOMETHING! Nobody knows it all, but sooner or later you gotta make a decision. Otherwise you become like the person with one talent in the parable of the talents in Matt. 25 who buried it in the ground.
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johniam
Satori: quote:If any faith is represented as "truth," we need to ask, "What makes this 'truth' different from every other faith, which makes the same claim?" We need to ask with the commitment to discover the truth about our "Truth."
That's the same argument put forth in Jesus Christ Superstar. What makes truth truth is God. Either He's real or He ain't. True, I can't prove that the God I believe in exists, but neither can you prove He doesn't.
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