John Lynn responds

[shazdancer]

I originally was not going to respond to sky4it's post about "an attitude of pride or superiority" of those who belong to other churches, but I think it is absolutely relevant to JAL's posts. Here is part of his response to my letter, quoted above. (Part of it, addressing me personally, he did not give permission to post, although I have asked him if I may.)

Hi {Shaz,}

****

I agree-in TWI we did often forget the weightier matters, but please remember that STFI/CES is not TWI, and the closer you look, the clearer you'll see how different it is.

If you were familiar with us and what we have done and are doing, you'd know that we are doing all we can to learn truth from any source. In fact, that is why we looked into Momentus, and we have taken flak for being so eclectic. I've often drawn the analogy that we are perpetual trick-or-treaters, going from ministry to ministry to see what they have to offer. "OK, we'll pass on the apple with the razor blade in it--we'll take the Snickers." Then we put it in our growingly diverse bag and move on.

As one who could very possibly be considered "the apostle to ex-Way saints," I fully understand and appreciate what people like you are trying to do on G-spot. That is because I have done the same thing for 17+ years at kitchen tables around the country, as well as via countless phone calls, emails and letters. And the truth is that what we are doing is the most effective thing I've seen to heal the hearts of people abused by that system. That is simply my experience, and Those encounters were far more than "sound bites," and, I'd guess, even more personal that most G-spot interactions. Please don't hear me saying that no one else is doing anything.

Obviously you were badly burned by TWI, and judging from the generalities you speak about Christian ministries, it sounds as if you have since had little contact with any that are doing much good. Again, STFI/CES is not TWI. We do not "just throw Scripture at people," and yes, we have referred many believers to many sources of help that are outside our immediate bailiwick. I must say that it is sad to me that you do not seem to be able to make the connection that if someone is truly "believing God" (that is, His Word), he will do what really helps another person. 1 John 2:5 says that if one hides the Word in his heart (and obeys it), that (and only that) will enable him to maturely love others.

May I suggest that, like hundreds of other dear ex-Way saints who I've met through the years, you are still bound by the fear of getting "bitten by another dog." I deal with this analogy in more detail in a tape I did in 1991 titled "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Fear But Were Afraid to Ask," and much of the information about the mechanics of fear came from a book about trading in the stock market.

Here's how it works: You were "bitten" by TWI (the dog). From then on, when you see another "dog," a very real fear rises up within you. The question is not whether the fear is real--it is. The question is whether or not the fear is VALID based upon the circumstances, and if we are speaking of literal dogs, such fear is not valid 95% of the time, because most dogs just want to play with you or be petted.

So how do you find out what kind of dog you are dealing with? You must push through your internal fear and interact with the pooch. there are ways to do so more carefully, but it must be done if you are to experience the benefits of loving and being loved by a dog. Ditto for a ministry. If you only stand at a distance, allowing your fear to dictate your never getting close, you will never benefit from the ministries that really could help you.

Perhaps that is one reason why our websites are proving to be so beneficial in people getting to know us "from a distance." The more they read, the more they like what we have to offer. And when they work up the courage to come to a f-ship or a weekend, most are thrilled, and that is a fact.

I love you.

John

{edited to take my real name out of the post, tho' it probably is not that important!}

Edited August 25, 2004 by shazdancer

[Belle]

I don't know JL, never did and don't care to, but this reeks of the same attitude LCM spouted. Especially:

quote:

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As one who could very possibly be considered "the apostle to ex-Way saints,"

---

The only Napoleon complex infested people I have met have been from TWI, CES and other cult-like religions. The mainstream Christian churches are actually pretty warm and down to earth, if not vanilla in most ways.

I have found a church I like and the people are interested in helping all kinds of people from all walks of life, regardless of church/religious affiliations. I just don't think you find that in these "off shoots" (for lack of a better term).

[Belle]

Another thing, Shaz, I don't know how close you and John are/were, but I can't stand it when people I hardly know tell me they love me. Heck, I don't even say that with my dearest friends.

[shazdancer]

Yeah, Belle, John married me to my first husband, and he was my Limb leader in NY, but that's about it. I agree with you about the "I love you" part. I'm willing to chalk it up to a sincere desire on his part to love everybody, but I also get the sense of him maybe using that to try to win me over. My boyfriend half-jokingly told me I should write him back and say I have a very jealous partner!

Regards,

Shaz

[ChasUFarley]

Belle... after reading some of your posts, I think you and I must share a brain or something. I totally agree with your points about JAL's letters.

I met him once about four years ago in NH. I didn't find him to be approachable at all and was quite disappointed by the whole thing. I also questioned the "personal prophesy" thing he was into - I mean, didn't that fall into the "God-told-me-to-tell-you..." category? Anyhow, I felt outcasted immediately because I didn't blindly jump on the bandwagon. (At least I didn't end up wasting 10 more years with another cult!)

I find it interesting that someone is willing to knock other churches/beliefs/organizations, etc., when they were knocked for running off and starting one themselves! Rather than considering that another group might have the same truth and be Word-oriented and/or research-driven, they assume because THEY are not a part of THEIR GROUP, then they can't possibly have the TRUTH...

Again, someone else who thinks their Daddy's favorite....

[wwjesuslaughat]

In their hearts CES/STFI may think they are moving away from TWI, and perhaps in thinking they have reached out a little, but in structure, especially in the last 2-3 years, they are inching ever closer to a TWI organization. They have a WOW program, they have bought land to do their own camps, conferences, and "Rock", they are ordaining people, they have leadership conferences, etc.

All of this would not raise an eyebrow if another group not involved with TWI implemented these changes, but I get the feeling they believe they can do "The Way" ministry "right" this time. With so many options available for outreach and teaching, why are they going back to so many TWI programs, albeit different names?

[rascal]

I think that it is primarily because after leaving twi....they have not really LOOKED for any options other than being with folks that think and speak and believe as we once did.

They are unwilling to leave that which they have become comfortable with, and so gather together telling each other that this is the *best* that is available after all...and are patting each other on the back...convincing themselves that they are on a mission for God.

The problem is, if you don`t leave your *comfort zone*... you don`t grow, you don`t ever see what is out here that really IS better, you have to keep turning back to that which makes you the most comfortable.

One might very well be content to live as such.....

[WordWolf]

quote:

---

Originally posted by rascal:

I think that it is primarily because after leaving twi....they have not really LOOKED for any options other than being with folks that think and speak and believe as we once did.

They are unwilling to leave that which they have become comfortable with, and so gather together telling each other that this is the *best* that is available after all...and are patting each other on the back...convincing themselves that they are on a mission for God.

The problem is, if you don`t leave your *comfort zone*... you don`t grow, you don`t ever see what is out here that really IS better, you have to keep turning back to that which makes you the most comfortable.

One might very well be content to live as such.....

---

BINGO.

[shazdancer]

Okay, with JAL's permission, here is the first part of his most recent email, which was addressed more to me personally...

quote:

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Thanks for posting my replies to you. I should have taped a 30 minute spiel I did today on the phone answering another person about Momentus/Breakthrough. It was really articulate, and though he was skeptical when he called, he really understood the heart behind it, and why most of the criticism I've read about it is just not true. If it were a part of our ministry, I'd take the time to write to you all that I said to him, but I am spread so thin that I have to prioritize my time carefully. I'm sorry you don't want to talk on the phone, and I really don't understand why not. In fact, if you prefer, you need not say anything. If we do talk, you will see that I love you and will only be kind to you.

---

Why do they always prefer calling? ... wait, I think I know ... ;)-->

Anyhoo, here is my response to his email.

Dear John,

Well, I got a chuckle out of what you said to me. You see, I am not afraid of you, nor of TWI. I never was, which is probably one of the things which helped spare me any big trauma upon leaving that organization. I was profoundly sad and disappointed with the organization and Wierwille, but not traumatized. I had not been abused to the extent of others, and did not know about the sexual abuse that was going on.

I have had some very good experiences with several mainstream churches and church-goers, including when I was still in, which is now almost twenty years ago. I am happy with where my life is now in terms of spiritual matters. To be honest, I think a phone call would waste your time and mine. And it would be harder for me to accurately convey to Greasespot what was said, which is my main purpose in contacting you. Again, thank you for putting your views out there. Very few of the TWI "offshoots" have done that.

I would have no problem posting the first part of your letter to me, if you are amenable.

As far as the "fear of the dog" part of your post, I think there is a third choice. Life is short -- you don't have to pet every dog to see which ones bite, and which don't! And you don't have to like dogs at all if you don't want to, with or without a bad experience. That is me at this time, I'm just not searching.

Regards,

{Shaz}

[TheInvisibleDan]

quote:

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Originally posted by shazdancer:

Okay, with JAL's permission [...]

I'm sorry you don't want to talk on the phone, and I really don't understand why not. In fact, if you prefer, you need not say anything. If we do talk, you will see that I love you and will only be kind to you.

---

Jeesh, that's kind of icky.

I'm imagining him wearing a t-shirt reading "I want to be your friend".

Sometimes when telemarketers get on the horn,

the phone becomes a leech threatening to suck one's brains out through their ear.

Like the telemarketer who called me up a couple times each month trying to sell me a septic tank - despite the fact that my home is already hooked up to a main sewer.

Danny

[WordWolf]

Is it just me,

or did he imply he's still involved with Momentus?

I was under the impression that it was in his PAST, and he was

trying to distance himself from it without saying it was ever

anything but a brilliant idea.

Now it seems like he's still involved.....

[shazdancer]

Yeah, Dan, icky, which is why I wanted to include it. And I read a lot of "I know what's wrong with you" into that and the rest of the letter. "You need not say anything" cracked me up, like I'm such a whuss that he will take care of everything for me. Ugh!

Regards,

Shaz

[mj412]

exactly Shaz.

I feel the same way they honestly believe the world needs to be on a mission from God.

it is very ego inflating and power appealing to those who can NOT really stand with a genuine life and relationship with the Lord.

that is why they need the people around them amass as well, they do not face life in honest terms if you ask me. it is high pressure sales and if they "win" it is a type of high or victory.

it is a game , a business a life style( god) dificult to stop once embraced .

it feeds something alright but not anything more than their own pat on the shoulder for helping those with a lesser or dimissed life in their eye.

it makes me sick. did not Jesus say we are to be humble and a servant of others? Serving another isnt saying I have some food and if you do this and believe me on this and and and jump my hoops and we like you and accept you you can have it because IM a good servant of christ and your not.

[George Aar]

The whole schtick just gives me the creeps.

Just exactly what is the great benefit one should expect from their association with another smarmy group of Bible thumpers?

Any ex-Wayfer who, at this late date, is still infatuated with such oily, spiritual soap-salesmen has GOT to have some serious issues they haven't dealt with.

Gawd, I'd sooner call in to a 1-800 number for a "Pocket Fisherman", "Vegematic", or possibly a "Cap Snaffler". Surely they're the answer to all my problems...

[waterbuffalo]

Dan said:

quote:

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Jeesh, that's kind of icky.

I'm imagining him wearing a t-shirt reading "I want to be your friend".

...like the telemarketer who called me up a couple times each month trying to sell me a septic tank - despite the fact that my home is already hooked up to a main sewer.

---

LOL, Dan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!What a great analogy.

[waterbuffalo]

quote:

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Any ex-Wayfer who, at this late date, is still infatuated with such oily, spiritual soap-salesmen has GOT to have some serious issues they haven't dealt with.

---

Well said, Geo. :)-->

[waterbuffalo]

quote:

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Is it just me,

or did he imply he's still involved with Momentus?

---

Or, another option, Wordwolf, might be that he just can't say he was R,R,R,R,R,R.....wrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrong.

Only guessing, of course -->

[waterbuffalo]

quote:

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Yeah, Dan, icky, which is why I wanted to include it. And I read a lot of "I know what's wrong with you" into that and the rest of the letter. "You need not say anything" cracked me up, like I'm such a whuss that he will take care of everything for me. Ugh!

---

I know, Shaz!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like you were just waiting around for him to come fix ya.

[waterbuffalo]

quote:

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it is very ego inflating and power appealing to those who can NOT really stand with a genuine life and relationship with the Lord.

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Such excellent speakers we have on this board, including yourself, MJ.

[waterbuffalo]

I am totally not here to criticize JAL, but can't for the life of me see what he is doing or saying that is different from what he was doing/saying in twi or how he has changed.

Having said that, I believe there was good in him then and there is good in him now. He just isn't serving up anything I want or need to eat--sort of more like been to that cafe when I was starving (in twi), liked it then, but now my tastebuds have changed and I have more discriminating tastes.

Edited August 25, 2004 by waterbuffalo

[satori001]

Wasn't this fun?

[ex10]

and your point is?

[satori001]

Since there are a few new ex-Corps folks posting here since the LEAD thread, I thought they might find this of some interest.