"And look at the three (plus) CES Mouseketeers to this day, still wearing their Wayworld ears."
Thanks for that. Made my morning (ha!).
OM,
Uh, yeah, if we found some discrepancies in THE WORD OF WIERWILLE, we were free to leave. What we weren't free to do was disagree. I guess that's just fine with you, eh?
George, what's the point in your statement. In life, and dealing with religions and other entities, one either agrees with the doctrine, or disagrees, and decides from there what one wants to do, either way. If one gets to the point that ones disagreement is so big that one can't live with it, one leaves. That's exactly what happened.
George, it's pretty difficult for me to reason with you if you now believe everything about your experience with twi was one big obscene waste of time. We are coming from opposite extremes.
"George, it's pretty difficult for me to reason with you if you now believe everything about your experience with twi was one big obscene waste of time."
quote: I'll try to give you some examples, but I shouldn't need to. Read "Can I Trust the Bible?" You'll have to have to figure out how to skip from one McNugget to the next, since continuity was not high on their priorities list. But, if you still can, try to put yourself in the shoes of someone looking for an answer, not just some shallow re-affirmation of what they already hold true.
This would be great for everyone to do, but most won't ever try. My journey in this area started after years of not "winning" one person to da ministry. I couldn't figure out why someone who never believed in God would suddenly believe. Escecially if we were supposed to believe first and then see.
quote: But here's the real rub. It isn't even good enough for the faithful, if "education" is the goal. It really isn't. It's purposely dumb, not because they think you're dumb, but because they are TRAINING you to be dumb.
never thought of it quite that way, but WOW, how true. "You can only go as far as you've been taught" was repeated like a broken record. I just heard the remix while reading "Can I trust the Bible". The first paragraph says it all. Four million robots can't be wrong. Genius!
quote: But the dumbing/numbing process was more insidious than any of us realized. Our own rational (or at least, "common sense") standards for "truth" were eroding, replaced by Wierwille's sole authority. And remember, Wierwille launched a full-scale attack on "thinking." "Private interpretation" became the catch-all for any "dangerous" attempt to apply "those wonderful keys" on your own, and especially if you risked contradicting his "research."
I totally see this as I talk with innie family. It is sad and hard to deal with their reality. A 2D reality, like looking at a culpture and only seeing a charcoal drawing on paper. One-sided.
Hostile waters here at The Spot, huh John? After what some have written in response to your first post, I suppose you might feel that there's no profit in responding to your critics. Unless you say that V.P. Wierwille was a complete chalatan, and you are hopingto succede at it as brilliantly as he did, I doubt ANYTHING you say will satisfy some.
As for myself, while I ain't about to join any church or ministry in the forseeable future, I don't believe that EVERYTHING taught by Wierwille and The Way is gargage. A lot of it has been taught for centuries. Same goes with CES. Much of it is standard Christian
doctrine. I think that people who have rejected out of hand all of The Way's Teachings (and by extension, all of CES's), also reject most of Christianity's offerings. Baby, bathwater, soap, washcloth, and the pan to boot! I'm not quite there yet. I remember the moment I was born again (many years before I'd even heard of The Way). I've not yet given up on a true relationship with God. But I do understand the rage and complete distrust of all "men of God" expressed here. So there might not be much "fertile ground" here. Sorry.
I did a bit of reading on your site last night before bed. Will read more later. I have a question that I'd be interested in hearing the answer to. I noticed that you now refer to the return of Christ as "The Rapture". Why do you now use the more common term for that occurrance? Just curious.
Also, do you believe it's possible for us to have a more direct fellowship with Jesus Christ than The Way makes available? How is it possible (if at all) to make prayerful requests to Jesus, without worshiping him as some sort of deity?
Hostile waters here at The Spot, huh John? After what some have written in response to your first post, I suppose you might feel that there's no profit in responding to your critics. Unless you say that V.P. Wierwille was a complete chalatan, and you are hoping to succede at it as brilliantly as he did, I doubt ANYTHING you say will satisfy some.
As for myself, while I ain't about to join any church or ministry in the forseeable future, I don't believe that EVERYTHING taught by Wierwille and The Way is gargage. A lot of it has been taught for centuries. Same goes with CES. Much of it is standard Christian
doctrine. I think that people who have rejected out of hand all of The Way's Teachings (and by extension, all of CES's), also reject most of Christianity's offerings. Baby, bathwater, soap, washcloth, and the pan to boot! I'm not quite there yet. I remember the moment I was born again (many years before I'd even heard of The Way). I've not yet given up on a true relationship with God. But I do understand the rage and complete distrust of all "men of God" expressed here. So there might not be much "fertile ground" here. Sorry.
I did a bit of reading on your site last night before bed. Will read more later. I have a question that I'd be interested in hearing the answer to. I noticed that you now refer to the return of Christ as "The Rapture". Why do you now use the more common term for that occurrance? Just curious.
Also, do you believe it's possible for us to have a more direct fellowship with Jesus Christ than The Way makes available? How is it possible (is it?) to talk to Jesus, express our thanks to him, or make prayerful requests of him, without worshiping him as a deity?
quote:I did a bit of reading on your site last night before bed. Will read more later. I have a question that I'd be interested in hearing the answer to. I noticed that you now refer to the return of Christ as "The Rapture". Why do you now use the more common term for that occurrance? Just curious.
I hope you don't mine me taking a shot at this...
There are several occurrences of a "gathering together" in the Bible, and not all refer to the incident recorded in I Thessalonians 4. We (in English) get the word "rapture" from the Latin for "caught up" (as in "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"). There's nothing unbiblical about the word "rapture," and most Christians understand what you're talking about when you use that word. There's nothing unbiblical about the term "gathering together," but most Christians would need you to define which gathering you're talking about.
So to avoid an utterly unnecessary bit of confusion, why not just use "rapture"?
Let me buy you a piece of pie, at the Greasespot Cafe.
Be sure to visit the 9th Corps thread, since you're an honorary 9th Corps member.
Cherished Child has some good advice; there are some harsh words here; not all that unexpected, since many people are dealing with large measures of pain, even so many years after the fact.
quote: I noticed that you now refer to the return of Christ as "The Rapture". Why do you now use the more common term for that occurrance? Just curious.
Cherished Child,
On one of the CES tape series (I believe its the series on the book of Revelation), John Schoenheit says the reason why they now use "rapture" instead of "gathering together" is that rapture is recognizable by the vast majority of Christians out there. He said when he'd use the words "gathering together" with non-twi folks, he'd get quizzical looks, so they went with the more common term.
quote:And what a great ministry it was. So free to come and go. Never any peer pressure, coercive intimidation, abusive reproof sessions, accusations, public humiliations - just love.
Satori, yes, this was my experience for the most part in twi-1. I didn't experience the negatives you refer to. I'm not saying it was all just love, you're putting that in my mouth. I also think there's a difference between twi of the 70's and 80's and twi of the 90's. Perhaps you don't agree but folks have seen and experienced the difference.
You keep bringing up TWI-1. Wierwille was the corrupt and corrupting influence from the get-go. He just couldn't keep up with the droves of new "believers" early on, so the place was kind of nice to be around. All that was temporary.
When people read the bible and embrace Christian love and believe they are free from guilt and shame, you'll have a very up-beat bunch. In time, the organization grew large enough to contain and control them.
Once martialed by the megalomaniacal martinet into the international sales force of his dreams, "believers" incrementally assimilated VP's predatory personality. The Corps was the worst of the lot. WOWs could be a pestilence too, especially under the Corps' influence.
You will still find "TWI 1" anywhere you have a new group of Christians around the bible, before somebody gets a bright idea to organize them into a business model.
Is CES' new name the beginning of the end? "The Spirit & Truth International" not only stinks with dubious ambition, it's absurdly close to "The Way International." I wonder if they aren't in preliminary merger talks with New Knoxville already. The apple doesn't fall far from the (Way) tree, does it?
quote: I do not have time to type answers to what I can already see, by reading the posts after Paw's blurb about me, will be a myriad of questions
So, is this just a proselytizing strafing run?
Just my NSHO, but I would think you have a lot more to answer for than someone who just wandered in here off the street. Such as others have posted, the timing of your new found enlightenment and your departure from The Way's compound.
quote: Did you do your job in TWI knowing things were wrong?
Are you going to use the Nuremburg defense for this one (I vuz just following ordairs)?
If you don't have the time to answer questions, you don't deserve the self ordained collar you wear.
It was good that you pointed out some good and some not good topical things from the TWI experience. Others have likewise pointed out some of the good, so that the whole experience doesn't have to be remorseful. Unfortunately, when I left TWI, there were no such comparisons around. I did my own studying to claw and scratch my way out of the meat grinder. Therefore I am reluctant to let masters of the word out of the box they created by comparisons with the same scripture. The reason being that does smacks mockery to the same word which I thoroughly love.
Interestingly I John 4 discusses the spirit of truth and the spirit of error in the context of "he that knoweth God." It is therefore by experience and knowing our Lord that is the difference maker in the handling of the scriptures and the "rightly dividing them.
With respect to me being harsh, I can only say when someone throws that fastball over the plate, I am going to deposit it right were it belongs, in the bleachers. I am just glad someone was on base. :)-->
“This is literal hogwash. Why is that that the ministry you received was greater by comparison than those around you? Why must you hyperventalate in such fashion to valid it? To me Mr. Lynn its the same ole Me Big , you Little arguement that TWI used to have and I am wondering why you still do this?”
John is working full-time, trying to live by a solid set of ethics, and he is still studying G-d’s Word and teaching it. Why do you need to jump on him? You are projecting your anger, fear and hatred onto him. Whatever happened to you was a long time ago. Get over it.
Did he say anything to insult you? Then why insult him.
MJ-
“unless it is all for the deep and abiding love he feels for us who he does not know and will pick and chose to answer only those who will identify themself.”
From the response already, I fully understand why. Don’t you?
I enjoy it here sometimes, but most other Ex-Wayers that are friends of mine don’t come here. Why? Because of the over-whelming negatives that swim in this cesspool.
Why deal with this, if you have anything better to do with your time?
Satori-
“The Koolaid Stand is Open for Business at Greasespot!”
Can’t you just be happy for the man, even if you don’t worship G-d along with us anymore?
Comparing CES to the ‘People’s Temple’ is not very kind.
“And look at the three (plus) CES Mouseketeers to this day, still wearing their Wayworld ears. They yet accept many fundamentally flawed premises, based on Papa Wierwille's authority ALONE. They've long forgotten the day they sold out, not to God, but to Vic. So have many of us.”
So I take it that you don’t like CES. Too bad, they certainly are trying to be very loving.
“The Corps was the worst of the lot. . . .”
Okay fine, here you have me, I agree.
“You will still find "TWI 1" anywhere you have a new group of Christians around the bible, before somebody gets a bright idea to organize them into a business model.”
Through-out TWI-2 and TWI-3, we stayed in the TWI-1 mindset and ran our twigs accordingly. Up untio the last time I was thrown out (for owning some of Rev. Cummins’ and Lynn’s writtings).
“Is CES' new name the beginning of the end? "The Spirit & Truth International" not only stinks with dubious ambition, it's absurdly close to "The Way International." I wonder if they aren't in preliminary merger talks with New Knoxville already. The apple doesn't fall far from the (Way) tree, does it?”
So negative, I must say.
1000-
“Are you going to use the Nuremburg defense for this one (I vuz just following ordairs)? If you don't have the time to answer questions, you don't deserve the self ordained collar you wear.”
I see that you are very welcoming, loving and just wanting to help a guy along aren’t you.
CHARACTER FLAWS give me a f em break. I stoped drinking the koolaid a long time ago. John that's about the sorriest thing i have ever read. Top leaders decieving Gods people stealing killing rapeing all planed out stuff and we blame it on the old devil.
Seems you haven't learned much since you left. By the way look like oldies will be joining prettty quick.
John is working full-time, trying to live by a solid set of ethics, and he is still studying G-d’s Word and teaching it. Why do you need to jump on him? You are projecting your anger, fear and hatred onto him. Whatever happened to you was a long time ago. Get over it.
Galen: I aint angry at him, I dont hate him, and I dont fear him. I just simply disagree with him. As far as jumping on him goes, so what? Its a free country that our fathers fought for so we could think independently. So why dont you go beat your drum somewhere else.
Did he say anything to insult you? Then why insult him.
galen:
ok How exactly did I insult him? Would you feel better if I said Sig Heil to everything he said? No thanks. Been there done that with those types. I dont remember anyone bieng considerate and understanding to me when I turned a deaf ear to The Way Doctrines. I've got a problem with those doctrines. In my opinion, if John were considering what I said, he would thank me and call me his friend. But he wont discuss specifics, so thats his problem not mine. Personlly I dont like your tactics, trying to make me feel guilty for differentiating on things I disagree with. Did I tell John and you that you had anger, fear and hatred toward me because he disagrees with me? No I did not. So why don't you go and get over it.
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George Aar
Satori,
"And look at the three (plus) CES Mouseketeers to this day, still wearing their Wayworld ears."
Thanks for that. Made my morning (ha!).
OM,
Uh, yeah, if we found some discrepancies in THE WORD OF WIERWILLE, we were free to leave. What we weren't free to do was disagree. I guess that's just fine with you, eh?
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oldiesman
George, what's the point in your statement. In life, and dealing with religions and other entities, one either agrees with the doctrine, or disagrees, and decides from there what one wants to do, either way. If one gets to the point that ones disagreement is so big that one can't live with it, one leaves. That's exactly what happened.
George, it's pretty difficult for me to reason with you if you now believe everything about your experience with twi was one big obscene waste of time. We are coming from opposite extremes.
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George Aar
OM,
"George, it's pretty difficult for me to reason with you if you now believe everything about your experience with twi was one big obscene waste of time."
Yeah, reality can be a rather harsh taskmaster...
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lindyhopper
Great post Satori.
highlights...
This would be great for everyone to do, but most won't ever try. My journey in this area started after years of not "winning" one person to da ministry. I couldn't figure out why someone who never believed in God would suddenly believe. Escecially if we were supposed to believe first and then see.
never thought of it quite that way, but WOW, how true. "You can only go as far as you've been taught" was repeated like a broken record. I just heard the remix while reading "Can I trust the Bible". The first paragraph says it all. Four million robots can't be wrong. Genius!
I totally see this as I talk with innie family. It is sad and hard to deal with their reality. A 2D reality, like looking at a culpture and only seeing a charcoal drawing on paper. One-sided.
Gotta go.
Are you still standing, John?
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year2027
God first
Hi John
God bless your heart glad you came
here
with love Roy
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Cherished Child
Hostile waters here at The Spot, huh John? After what some have written in response to your first post, I suppose you might feel that there's no profit in responding to your critics. Unless you say that V.P. Wierwille was a complete chalatan, and you are hopingto succede at it as brilliantly as he did, I doubt ANYTHING you say will satisfy some.
As for myself, while I ain't about to join any church or ministry in the forseeable future, I don't believe that EVERYTHING taught by Wierwille and The Way is gargage. A lot of it has been taught for centuries. Same goes with CES. Much of it is standard Christian
doctrine. I think that people who have rejected out of hand all of The Way's Teachings (and by extension, all of CES's), also reject most of Christianity's offerings. Baby, bathwater, soap, washcloth, and the pan to boot! I'm not quite there yet. I remember the moment I was born again (many years before I'd even heard of The Way). I've not yet given up on a true relationship with God. But I do understand the rage and complete distrust of all "men of God" expressed here. So there might not be much "fertile ground" here. Sorry.
I did a bit of reading on your site last night before bed. Will read more later. I have a question that I'd be interested in hearing the answer to. I noticed that you now refer to the return of Christ as "The Rapture". Why do you now use the more common term for that occurrance? Just curious.
Also, do you believe it's possible for us to have a more direct fellowship with Jesus Christ than The Way makes available? How is it possible (if at all) to make prayerful requests to Jesus, without worshiping him as some sort of deity?
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Cherished Child
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Raf
I hope you don't mine me taking a shot at this...
There are several occurrences of a "gathering together" in the Bible, and not all refer to the incident recorded in I Thessalonians 4. We (in English) get the word "rapture" from the Latin for "caught up" (as in "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"). There's nothing unbiblical about the word "rapture," and most Christians understand what you're talking about when you use that word. There's nothing unbiblical about the term "gathering together," but most Christians would need you to define which gathering you're talking about.
So to avoid an utterly unnecessary bit of confusion, why not just use "rapture"?
That's the logic as I see it.
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Jim
I guess that if he wanted a dialog, he wouldn't have shut down the CES forums.
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notinKansasanymore
Welcome, John.
Let me buy you a piece of pie, at the Greasespot Cafe.
Be sure to visit the 9th Corps thread, since you're an honorary 9th Corps member.
Cherished Child has some good advice; there are some harsh words here; not all that unexpected, since many people are dealing with large measures of pain, even so many years after the fact.
Welcome.
love, niKa
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oldiesman
Cherished Child,
On one of the CES tape series (I believe its the series on the book of Revelation), John Schoenheit says the reason why they now use "rapture" instead of "gathering together" is that rapture is recognizable by the vast majority of Christians out there. He said when he'd use the words "gathering together" with non-twi folks, he'd get quizzical looks, so they went with the more common term.
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notinKansasanymore
By the way, Satori -
It's nice to see you back.
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oldiesman
Satori, yes, this was my experience for the most part in twi-1. I didn't experience the negatives you refer to. I'm not saying it was all just love, you're putting that in my mouth. I also think there's a difference between twi of the 70's and 80's and twi of the 90's. Perhaps you don't agree but folks have seen and experienced the difference.
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satori001
You keep bringing up TWI-1. Wierwille was the corrupt and corrupting influence from the get-go. He just couldn't keep up with the droves of new "believers" early on, so the place was kind of nice to be around. All that was temporary.
When people read the bible and embrace Christian love and believe they are free from guilt and shame, you'll have a very up-beat bunch. In time, the organization grew large enough to contain and control them.
Once martialed by the megalomaniacal martinet into the international sales force of his dreams, "believers" incrementally assimilated VP's predatory personality. The Corps was the worst of the lot. WOWs could be a pestilence too, especially under the Corps' influence.
You will still find "TWI 1" anywhere you have a new group of Christians around the bible, before somebody gets a bright idea to organize them into a business model.
Is CES' new name the beginning of the end? "The Spirit & Truth International" not only stinks with dubious ambition, it's absurdly close to "The Way International." I wonder if they aren't in preliminary merger talks with New Knoxville already. The apple doesn't fall far from the (Way) tree, does it?
edited for spelling
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satori001
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
So, is this just a proselytizing strafing run?
Just my NSHO, but I would think you have a lot more to answer for than someone who just wandered in here off the street. Such as others have posted, the timing of your new found enlightenment and your departure from The Way's compound.
Are you going to use the Nuremburg defense for this one (I vuz just following ordairs)?
If you don't have the time to answer questions, you don't deserve the self ordained collar you wear.
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Jim
Where's Research Geek?
I want to know the Biblical perspective on engaging/evading debate.
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sky4it
Shazdancer:
It was good that you pointed out some good and some not good topical things from the TWI experience. Others have likewise pointed out some of the good, so that the whole experience doesn't have to be remorseful. Unfortunately, when I left TWI, there were no such comparisons around. I did my own studying to claw and scratch my way out of the meat grinder. Therefore I am reluctant to let masters of the word out of the box they created by comparisons with the same scripture. The reason being that does smacks mockery to the same word which I thoroughly love.
Interestingly I John 4 discusses the spirit of truth and the spirit of error in the context of "he that knoweth God." It is therefore by experience and knowing our Lord that is the difference maker in the handling of the scriptures and the "rightly dividing them.
With respect to me being harsh, I can only say when someone throws that fastball over the plate, I am going to deposit it right were it belongs, in the bleachers. I am just glad someone was on base.
:)-->
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Galen
Sky4it-
“This is literal hogwash. Why is that that the ministry you received was greater by comparison than those around you? Why must you hyperventalate in such fashion to valid it? To me Mr. Lynn its the same ole Me Big , you Little arguement that TWI used to have and I am wondering why you still do this?”
John is working full-time, trying to live by a solid set of ethics, and he is still studying G-d’s Word and teaching it. Why do you need to jump on him? You are projecting your anger, fear and hatred onto him. Whatever happened to you was a long time ago. Get over it.
Did he say anything to insult you? Then why insult him.
MJ-
“unless it is all for the deep and abiding love he feels for us who he does not know and will pick and chose to answer only those who will identify themself.”
From the response already, I fully understand why. Don’t you?
I enjoy it here sometimes, but most other Ex-Wayers that are friends of mine don’t come here. Why? Because of the over-whelming negatives that swim in this cesspool.
Why deal with this, if you have anything better to do with your time?
Satori-
“The Koolaid Stand is Open for Business at Greasespot!”
Can’t you just be happy for the man, even if you don’t worship G-d along with us anymore?
Comparing CES to the ‘People’s Temple’ is not very kind.
“And look at the three (plus) CES Mouseketeers to this day, still wearing their Wayworld ears. They yet accept many fundamentally flawed premises, based on Papa Wierwille's authority ALONE. They've long forgotten the day they sold out, not to God, but to Vic. So have many of us.”
So I take it that you don’t like CES. Too bad, they certainly are trying to be very loving.
“The Corps was the worst of the lot. . . .”
Okay fine, here you have me, I agree.
“You will still find "TWI 1" anywhere you have a new group of Christians around the bible, before somebody gets a bright idea to organize them into a business model.”
Through-out TWI-2 and TWI-3, we stayed in the TWI-1 mindset and ran our twigs accordingly. Up untio the last time I was thrown out (for owning some of Rev. Cummins’ and Lynn’s writtings).
“Is CES' new name the beginning of the end? "The Spirit & Truth International" not only stinks with dubious ambition, it's absurdly close to "The Way International." I wonder if they aren't in preliminary merger talks with New Knoxville already. The apple doesn't fall far from the (Way) tree, does it?”
So negative, I must say.
1000-
“Are you going to use the Nuremburg defense for this one (I vuz just following ordairs)? If you don't have the time to answer questions, you don't deserve the self ordained collar you wear.”
I see that you are very welcoming, loving and just wanting to help a guy along aren’t you.
ET1 (SS) Galen
We still use PFAL in our fellowship.
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Danny
OM yes it was all lovey dovey untill they trew you out of the corps. didnt you say somewhere it was the worst day of your life?
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Danny
CHARACTER FLAWS give me a f em break. I stoped drinking the koolaid a long time ago. John that's about the sorriest thing i have ever read. Top leaders decieving Gods people stealing killing rapeing all planed out stuff and we blame it on the old devil.
Seems you haven't learned much since you left. By the way look like oldies will be joining prettty quick.
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sky4it
Galen:
your comment:
John is working full-time, trying to live by a solid set of ethics, and he is still studying G-d’s Word and teaching it. Why do you need to jump on him? You are projecting your anger, fear and hatred onto him. Whatever happened to you was a long time ago. Get over it.
Galen: I aint angry at him, I dont hate him, and I dont fear him. I just simply disagree with him. As far as jumping on him goes, so what? Its a free country that our fathers fought for so we could think independently. So why dont you go beat your drum somewhere else.
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Danny
What a round robin? hahahahhahah what a joke.
A very sad one.
Galen who are you to tell everyone how to be? Whats in your drink?
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sky4it
galen:
your comment:
Did he say anything to insult you? Then why insult him.
galen:
ok How exactly did I insult him? Would you feel better if I said Sig Heil to everything he said? No thanks. Been there done that with those types. I dont remember anyone bieng considerate and understanding to me when I turned a deaf ear to The Way Doctrines. I've got a problem with those doctrines. In my opinion, if John were considering what I said, he would thank me and call me his friend. But he wont discuss specifics, so thats his problem not mine. Personlly I dont like your tactics, trying to make me feel guilty for differentiating on things I disagree with. Did I tell John and you that you had anger, fear and hatred toward me because he disagrees with me? No I did not. So why don't you go and get over it.
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