I grew up in a Jewish area and many in the early 70’s Rye Fellowship were Jewish. It was neat that people from different backgrounds got along together so well. Much later I saw some minor anti-Semitism in a small few number of Corps leaders, but it was far from prevalent.
Because the "...complete collection of his teaching record" was a compilation of all that he stole from other writers, Veepee never did "make it his own" in practice. What came out of his cornfield piehole was a far cry from how he lived his life. Wierwille the hypocrite, was a liar, cheat, womanizer and a drunk. The level of intolerance he had for others was profound.
Wierwille was both anti-semetic and racist. I recall Veepee telling the story of how his brother was killed in a car accident by a black guy...he claims that it took a long time for him to "get over" his negative feelings towards blacks. I assert that he never did get over it...He ordained Lonnell Johnson and kept Claudette on center stage because he saw an opprotunity to expand his marketing base...
He hated Jews even more...During a couple of Advanced classes that I attended, he promoted such books as "Myth of the six million" and other anti-semetic publications. He often claimed that it was a mistake to make Israel such a close ally and to give them so much money. He claimed that the "so-called" Jews in the world today were not genetically, the Jews of the bible. He claimed that the Jews were no longer God's "Israel"...or His "chosen people".It was easy to see his "proud German heritage" come out when he was on one of his anti Jew tirades...I even heard him say once, that Hitler was "right on" with a lot of his ideas!
No Mike...Satori is right...you are more of a specimen than a spokesman. To hold on to the myth of Veepee is disturbing to a rational mind and to promote the "complete collection of his teaching record" is nothing more than an attempt to extend the damage that these harmful anti-Christian doctrines have already caused. Although I find you to be a source of amusement, I am also concerned for your mental hygiene. Have you considered any professional help?
Just a quick note to say thank you to everyone who responded to my post. I'll respond to each of you individually next week, as I'll be out of town until Monday.
Just didn't want anyone to think that I was afraid to run the gauntlet!
quote:Wierwille was both anti-semetic and racist. I recall Veepee telling the story of how his brother was killed in a car accident by a black guy...he claims that it took a long time for him to "get over" his negative feelings towards blacks. I assert that he never did get over it...
Where's the evidence that he never got over it? I think he was being honest and sharing his feelings. I might feel the same way if it happened to me.
quote:He ordained Lonnell Johnson and kept Claudette on center stage because he saw an opprotunity to expand his marketing base...
This comment suggesting they were token blacks is extremely insulting to both Lonnell and Claudette, who both earned what they received.
quote: He hated Jews even more...During a couple of Advanced classes that I attended, he promoted such books as "Myth of the six million" and other anti-semetic publications. He often claimed that it was a mistake to make Israel such a close ally and to give them so much money. He claimed that the "so-called" Jews in the world today were not genetically, the Jews of the bible. He claimed that the Jews were no longer God's "Israel"...or His "chosen people".It was easy to see his "proud German heritage" come out when he was on one of his anti Jew tirades...I even heard him say once, that Hitler was "right on" with a lot of his ideas!
More German bashing. The fact that Wierwille had these books in the bookstore and advocated their reading doesn't mean he hated Jews ... I think he meant there were more ideas out there than what the mass media was feeding us, for years, and we had the right to know about it. Yeah, it does mean something when the U.S. yearly donates billions of dollars to Israel because the U.S. feels Israel is Gods Chosen People. Maybe you don't care about where your tax dollars go; I do.
In my experiences, I've seen that true racists and anti-semites want nothing to do with blacks and Jews. On the contrary, Wierwille wanted to bring everybody into TWI, into the family and household of God ... so he didn't discriminate ... If Wierwille were racist and anti-semetic, he would have kept blacks and Jews out ... period.
Add to that the fact that for years folks like us were involved ... I know if there were a hint of racism I would have picked up on it ... I'm not that stupid or ignorant of what is racism and how to tell it is being practiced. I think I would have complained about it if it were present to any extent, and I think you would have as well.
well...I know corpes grads that were told by leadership not to marry on the simple basis of one being black.....it looked bad and thus would hinder the movement of the word....sounds a tad racist to me.
And I know Corps grads who were black and white. Even married couples who were Corps grads ... one Corps grad was black, their spouse, was white. Both Corps grads. If Wierwille were racist, would that have been allowed? Heck no!
Just a quick note to say thank you to everyone who responded to my post. I'll respond to each of you individually next week, as I'll be out of town until Monday.
Just didn't want anyone to think that I was afraid to run the gauntlet!
***
I have no momentus here with yaz Billy D. I certainly did not think you were afraid. Whats up with that fear factor?
What's your fav Rok Group?
Jee BD come on bring it on if and when you have the time your illusion a gauntlet.. how long ya been involved John
sky4it has a point, although I wouldn't have stated it quite so harshly. What did we learn from PFAL that hadn't been taught for centuries?
+ The Word of God is the Will of God -- hmm, basic fundamentalist doctrine.+ The Law of Believing -- ruined many lives, and almost wrecked mine+ How the Bible Interprets Itself -- a basic course in how to read ANY book+ Four Crucified -- Bullinger+ For This Purpose Was I Spared -- your group throws that one out+ How to be Born Again -- see any born-again church+ Renew the Mind -- ditto+ Speaking in Tongues -- Oral Roberts had that one packaged as neatly as Wierwille.+ T.I.P. -- Your group completely revamps much of what was taught in the Intermediate Class.+ JC Not God -- oopsie, you guys don't teach that, either -- correction (thanks, Raf), you DO teach JC is Not God, making this probably the most important doctrine you brought with you from TWI
(Now, as far as being a one-stop, package deal, I would also like to mention that B.G.Leonard had his class first and taught it to Wierwille, who re-labelled that package PFAL.)
So if we throw out the parts of PFAL that you do not adhere to, there is not much left that can't be found in any evangelical church with a charismatic renewal element, the type of church that was coming of age at the same time TWI gained its biggest following. And the ministries of Oral Roberts and B.G.Leonard, et al, certainly surfaced before Wierwille, as well as Bullinger, who published in the late 1800's.
There are a couple of other things in your post here that bug me a bit, but perhaps I am just nit-picking. You can respond here, or email me at shazdancer@danceart.net (this email is on my profile). We know each other from your NY days in TWI, and I doubt it would take much prodding to jog your memory.
Regards,
Shaz
This is Great!!! I couldn't say it better myself!!! cept that those who've been with the Way and Wierwille need a lot of cleansing to get rid of the BS ... Wierwille was a liar, PFAL Donation was a scam like most of christianity ... Salvation from what? witness to what? convince people of what? Jesus Christ was not God? what a bunch of hogwash!! one gets pretty tired and angry witnessing a scam that's been century old making money for multitudes... Christianitys not but a SCAM... there was NO Jesus like they say...and NO shred of evidence to that effect outside of the Bible which was a SCAM too!!! that's been edited and edited and edited to line someones pockets and imprision people to it's doctrines...hear that John, ya bastard!!!
And I know Corps grads who were black and white. Even married couples who were Corps grads ... one Corps grad was black, their spouse, was white. Both Corps grads. If Wierwille were racist, would that have been allowed? Heck no!
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow"
I dunno, I find myself reminded of the ramblings of another great MOG of our time - Dr. Bronner (you know, the soap guy).
Am I the only one who actually READ the label?
Of course not George. Everybody read the lable. Why else would you buy that stuff? In fact the label made a lot more sense after you smoked a bit of the soap!!
Thanking John Lynn for his post and I appeciated hearing your points of view. I also enjoyed your teaching in Seattle WA several years ago. I also appreciate that you cared enough for years to keep in touch with me.
I offer some points myself about what I learned in the WAY, through PFAL and through other literature such as "Life is Tremendous". Here are some no-nonsense, Common sense from myself. Facts:
We learned keys and principles to better cope with a godless world.
We learned the power of positive thinking.
We learned that 'ALL have SINNED, and come short of God's Glory'.
I do not believe VPW ever wanted others to Worship HIM, or think of HIM as the GREAT PROFIT. We all have minds and hearts of our own, what we do with what we learn is Our Problem or our Blessing. I for one am thankful for the TRUTH, and I have been able to separate for myself the 'Garbage'. If you people don't know this, there is GARBAGE and HUMAN SIN run amuck in ALL Man-Made Religion. We are all sinners, only difference is OUR decisions, Our Choices we make. For every decision we make, we have consequences. If we were in the WAY to watch its leaders and judge the actions of other 'sinners' and make THEM take the fall for your Decision making processes, then we are FOOLISH., and HAVE NOT LEARNED to Live God's Love. God is LOVE, Unconditional Love.
We are all sinners, but we choose Christ and we are Saved by Grace and not of ourselves, that being a GIFT OF GOD.
Why don't we all continue to 'guard the mystery'? Be especially Kind to the Household of Faith. Love others Unconditionally? Why pick apart other's faults. We pick out the Mote from one's eye, when we have a camel in our own?
I think we all got involved for different reasons in the Way Ministry. Mine was to learn how to Study the Bible, no one else was offering that. It was my version of 'Bible College'. I never gave a thought to all the human faults within it, why? Cause we are all from the same Mold. Sinners. Yet there is the great truth to which we all need to adhere to.
The world is full of darkness and division, it DESPERATELY NEEDS the lights of the world to SHINE -- to dispell the darkness.
It is literally TIME to stop pointing fingers, living in the PAST, and start LIVING in the FUTURE, and Looking forward to the Return of Christ. Sharing this Unconditional Love with those who CRAVE it, no matter WHERE we chose to 'fellowship' since the Way, let our lights shine, and let us Love one another.
John, I love you, my brother, and I am SO proud of you that you didn't fall by the wayside and do nothing with your Godliness, and your Love and your TALENTS, like I did. I hid from self and others afraid to go outside the Way Box or return to it.
Through the years I have wanted desperately to find old friends from the way ministry, why? To get back to my zeal, my positive energy, to HEAL my spirit and my mind and my body.
I like Greaspots, but the only things I don't like is the 'verbal cruelty', the blame games, and the 'bitterness'. Folks, regardless of our PASTS, lets press on to the higher calling in Christ? Let us forget the past, live in it no more. Do not let negativity consume us? It will destroy your soul and your mental and physical health. Get our heads and hearts back in the Bible and Living that Love. OK.
That's all I have to say. If GOD can forgive me, I can Forgive all those who have harmed me in my lifetime. I forgive all those who sinned. If I can accept God's Grace for myself, I can forgive others. We may not be able to forget some things, but lets forsake the past for a future of a Life of Abundant Blessings? God wants us to Prosper and Be In Health. We can't hate the messenger, God uses all kinds of people to bring his children to himself. That is what I am most thankful to the Way Ministry. The Beloved friendships I made, the love I learned about. The Hope.
Unconditional Love. We all got involved in the Ministry mostly because we were looking for LOVE. Lets focus on the good times, not the bad ones. Don't let issues cloud our perspectives. OK.
God Bless Everyone. We all have a story to tell to the nation, that shall turn their hearts to the Right. I no longer care what the Way Ministry is doing, as long as they are telling others about the Good News of God's Unconditional Love and how we can all inherit the Kingdom.
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Mike
I think Arthur Keostler (sp?) was of similar origins. Similarly with Gurdjief and Ouspensky.
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lovematters
I forgot that Koestler was Jewish.
It's funny (not ha ha funny) that a Jew hating bunch like The Way had so many Jewish authors in circulation.
Dr. Bonner was, I think, Jewish too.
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Mike
Jew hating bunch? No way!
I grew up in a Jewish area and many in the early 70’s Rye Fellowship were Jewish. It was neat that people from different backgrounds got along together so well. Much later I saw some minor anti-Semitism in a small few number of Corps leaders, but it was far from prevalent.
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Oakspear
Mike, when you use the word "neat" I get flashbacks
Can you say "groovy" for me?
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TheInvisibleDan
He's one of the knights who sez "Neat!"
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Mike
Grooby, Keemosaby.
:D-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
Because the "...complete collection of his teaching record" was a compilation of all that he stole from other writers, Veepee never did "make it his own" in practice. What came out of his cornfield piehole was a far cry from how he lived his life. Wierwille the hypocrite, was a liar, cheat, womanizer and a drunk. The level of intolerance he had for others was profound.
Wierwille was both anti-semetic and racist. I recall Veepee telling the story of how his brother was killed in a car accident by a black guy...he claims that it took a long time for him to "get over" his negative feelings towards blacks. I assert that he never did get over it...He ordained Lonnell Johnson and kept Claudette on center stage because he saw an opprotunity to expand his marketing base...
He hated Jews even more...During a couple of Advanced classes that I attended, he promoted such books as "Myth of the six million" and other anti-semetic publications. He often claimed that it was a mistake to make Israel such a close ally and to give them so much money. He claimed that the "so-called" Jews in the world today were not genetically, the Jews of the bible. He claimed that the Jews were no longer God's "Israel"...or His "chosen people".It was easy to see his "proud German heritage" come out when he was on one of his anti Jew tirades...I even heard him say once, that Hitler was "right on" with a lot of his ideas!
No Mike...Satori is right...you are more of a specimen than a spokesman. To hold on to the myth of Veepee is disturbing to a rational mind and to promote the "complete collection of his teaching record" is nothing more than an attempt to extend the damage that these harmful anti-Christian doctrines have already caused. Although I find you to be a source of amusement, I am also concerned for your mental hygiene. Have you considered any professional help?
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Billy D
Hey all!
Just a quick note to say thank you to everyone who responded to my post. I'll respond to each of you individually next week, as I'll be out of town until Monday.
Just didn't want anyone to think that I was afraid to run the gauntlet!
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oldiesman
In my experiences, I've seen that true racists and anti-semites want nothing to do with blacks and Jews. On the contrary, Wierwille wanted to bring everybody into TWI, into the family and household of God ... so he didn't discriminate ... If Wierwille were racist and anti-semetic, he would have kept blacks and Jews out ... period.
Add to that the fact that for years folks like us were involved ... I know if there were a hint of racism I would have picked up on it ... I'm not that stupid or ignorant of what is racism and how to tell it is being practiced. I think I would have complained about it if it were present to any extent, and I think you would have as well.
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rascal
well...I know corpes grads that were told by leadership not to marry on the simple basis of one being black.....it looked bad and thus would hinder the movement of the word....sounds a tad racist to me.
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washingtonweather
Yeah I can confirm what rascal said.
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oldiesman
And I know Corps grads who were black and white. Even married couples who were Corps grads ... one Corps grad was black, their spouse, was white. Both Corps grads. If Wierwille were racist, would that have been allowed? Heck no!
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Billy D
GS Discoverer
posted August 17, 2004 12:37
Hey all!
Just a quick note to say thank you to everyone who responded to my post. I'll respond to each of you individually next week, as I'll be out of town until Monday.
Just didn't want anyone to think that I was afraid to run the gauntlet!
***
I have no momentus here with yaz Billy D. I certainly did not think you were afraid. Whats up with that fear factor?
What's your fav Rok Group?
Jee BD come on bring it on if and when you have the time your illusion a gauntlet.. how long ya been involved John
guantlet eh,,, hmm...
Edited by oneyedjackswild1 psLink to comment
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mick
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JustThinking
Mick,
Are you an angry person?
JT
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def59
Angry and ignorant of the facts (about Christianity at least.)
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Oakspear
Not ignorant def, just has a different opinion of the so-called facts. Can't argue with angry though
;)-->
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
And I know Corps grads who were black and white. Even married couples who were Corps grads ... one Corps grad was black, their spouse, was white. Both Corps grads. If Wierwille were racist, would that have been allowed? Heck no!
"TWI has no power over you except that which your actions allow"
do you speak for DR?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
whoops hula hoops...
so many derails
so many thoughts, "Hi it's the real me..."
WHO?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I think mick has a point of some sort...
and been here a few times...
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My3Cents
Of course not George. Everybody read the lable. Why else would you buy that stuff? In fact the label made a lot more sense after you smoked a bit of the soap!!
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Jeff USAF RET
WOW!
LOL - this got to big to even begin to read!
Sure love you folks!
Jeff
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shazdancer
Blame Steve!, Jeff. He complimented me on starting a thread, which I hardly ever do, so I started this one....
Shaz
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jetc57
Thanking John Lynn for his post and I appeciated hearing your points of view. I also enjoyed your teaching in Seattle WA several years ago. I also appreciate that you cared enough for years to keep in touch with me.
I offer some points myself about what I learned in the WAY, through PFAL and through other literature such as "Life is Tremendous". Here are some no-nonsense, Common sense from myself. Facts:
We learned keys and principles to better cope with a godless world.
We learned the power of positive thinking.
We learned that 'ALL have SINNED, and come short of God's Glory'.
I do not believe VPW ever wanted others to Worship HIM, or think of HIM as the GREAT PROFIT. We all have minds and hearts of our own, what we do with what we learn is Our Problem or our Blessing. I for one am thankful for the TRUTH, and I have been able to separate for myself the 'Garbage'. If you people don't know this, there is GARBAGE and HUMAN SIN run amuck in ALL Man-Made Religion. We are all sinners, only difference is OUR decisions, Our Choices we make. For every decision we make, we have consequences. If we were in the WAY to watch its leaders and judge the actions of other 'sinners' and make THEM take the fall for your Decision making processes, then we are FOOLISH., and HAVE NOT LEARNED to Live God's Love. God is LOVE, Unconditional Love.
We are all sinners, but we choose Christ and we are Saved by Grace and not of ourselves, that being a GIFT OF GOD.
Why don't we all continue to 'guard the mystery'? Be especially Kind to the Household of Faith. Love others Unconditionally? Why pick apart other's faults. We pick out the Mote from one's eye, when we have a camel in our own?
I think we all got involved for different reasons in the Way Ministry. Mine was to learn how to Study the Bible, no one else was offering that. It was my version of 'Bible College'. I never gave a thought to all the human faults within it, why? Cause we are all from the same Mold. Sinners. Yet there is the great truth to which we all need to adhere to.
The world is full of darkness and division, it DESPERATELY NEEDS the lights of the world to SHINE -- to dispell the darkness.
It is literally TIME to stop pointing fingers, living in the PAST, and start LIVING in the FUTURE, and Looking forward to the Return of Christ. Sharing this Unconditional Love with those who CRAVE it, no matter WHERE we chose to 'fellowship' since the Way, let our lights shine, and let us Love one another.
John, I love you, my brother, and I am SO proud of you that you didn't fall by the wayside and do nothing with your Godliness, and your Love and your TALENTS, like I did. I hid from self and others afraid to go outside the Way Box or return to it.
Through the years I have wanted desperately to find old friends from the way ministry, why? To get back to my zeal, my positive energy, to HEAL my spirit and my mind and my body.
I like Greaspots, but the only things I don't like is the 'verbal cruelty', the blame games, and the 'bitterness'. Folks, regardless of our PASTS, lets press on to the higher calling in Christ? Let us forget the past, live in it no more. Do not let negativity consume us? It will destroy your soul and your mental and physical health. Get our heads and hearts back in the Bible and Living that Love. OK.
That's all I have to say. If GOD can forgive me, I can Forgive all those who have harmed me in my lifetime. I forgive all those who sinned. If I can accept God's Grace for myself, I can forgive others. We may not be able to forget some things, but lets forsake the past for a future of a Life of Abundant Blessings? God wants us to Prosper and Be In Health. We can't hate the messenger, God uses all kinds of people to bring his children to himself. That is what I am most thankful to the Way Ministry. The Beloved friendships I made, the love I learned about. The Hope.
Unconditional Love. We all got involved in the Ministry mostly because we were looking for LOVE. Lets focus on the good times, not the bad ones. Don't let issues cloud our perspectives. OK.
God Bless Everyone. We all have a story to tell to the nation, that shall turn their hearts to the Right. I no longer care what the Way Ministry is doing, as long as they are telling others about the Good News of God's Unconditional Love and how we can all inherit the Kingdom.
Love to all
Jeannette (Clevenger)
WOW, Fellow Laborer, ex-Way Visionary.
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