John Lynn has spent a life time teaching..the difference I see is teaching and debate John lynn and the folks of CES will not debate what they believe to be truth they teach it.
I know they try to exhuast a topic in their learning before they put it out as doctrine as much as possible and will discuss the merits of their belifs and how they got to the point and they have even changed their views on certain topics over the years.
But to be swayed by other ideals would be rare, CES has gone into other countries and worked with many different types of folks , they have worked with many different type of folks here.. They offer what they see and believe as truth as "lessons "and try to convince others of the same that is their career and occupation as a organization.
the goal is to teach others what they have worked out as truth from the bible.
The truth is grease spot is not really a platform for bible teaching and enlightenment the posters here who do speak of doctrine like Raf and Steve have been or is a part of what CES offers already.
they do make the link possible for any interested folks but I would think the type of debates and agruement at this thread would be a waste when they want to cater to those who "have ears to hear" the truth as they offer it instead of debating it round and round with other issues or ideals that come up here.
The Irvingites were the first ones to use "rapture" the way we might recognize it today, as the first part of a two-stage appearing. They did so in 1830. Darby lifted it from them and used it to postulate a pre-tribulation "rapture" of the "Church".
[Might try reading Darby sometime. Darby did NOT teach a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. Please stop taking SOMEONE ELSE'S word that he did. ]
Darby's main theme was that the "Church" is completely separate and discontinuous from Israel. No prophecies "addressed to Israel" could be applied to the "Church". Therefore, Darby had to get the "Church" out of here before the tribulation.
[Darby taught that most of the church is here thru the tribulation. He did in what I read of his writings, anyway.]
(snip)
"Voila!" Darby exclaims on the lime-lit stage, using his right hand to proudly wave the pretribulation "rapture" of the "Church" over his head.
[ Darby DID NOT TEACH A PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE. DARBY TAUGHT CHRISTIANS HAD TO BE READY FOR THE TRIBULATION BECAUSE HE SAID THEY'D LIVE THRU IT.]
(snip)
If you really get honest with the logical conclusion of dispensationalism, Darby surruptitiously pockets the cross of Christ.
(snip)
Scofield included Darby's swindle among his notes. More "rapture".
(snip)
...... and Darby's swindle became identified with fundamentalism.
To question the pre-tribulation "rapture" of the "Church" became tantamount to questioning the authenticity of the Bible itself.
Wierwille picked up Darby's swindle and gave it his own spin, as he did with just about everything. Gotta be unique, dontcha know. He replaced Darby's "rapture" with the biblical phrase "gathering together", but Wierwille still adhered to Darby's deceptive definitions and principles.
(snip)
But they are still mesmerized by Darby's stunning performance before the lime-lights. By returning to "rapture", the unbiblical word Darby bandied about so brilliantly, Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser have moved even farther away from noticing what Darby covertly slipped into his pocket.
Love,
Steve
Please reread your post. You're pretty consistent with painting Darby and others as being evil beings who shoved a pretribulation rapture down people's throats and frustrating the grace of God. From a "character" point of view, it's dishonest, and it reads like a smear campaign. It becomes WORSE when one notes that DARBY DID NOT PREACH A PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE. It appears to me that you're spending energy painting Darby as the scourge of modern Christianity that would be better spent actually checking if Darby taught what you're claiming he taught. At least you're not making that ridiculous claim that Darby invented the concept of a rapture based on a vision of Mc Donald, who ALSO did not believe in a "pretribulation rapture". ]
quote: Stage magicians make a living by misdirecting peoples' attention. They know that the human eye is attracted to motion. They make a broad sweeping motion with one hand, while working their chicanery through unobtrusive movements of the other.
Wierwille swindled us, folks. Dispensationalism was... not an important... not a major... but a NECESSARY... component of that swindle. Wierwille couldn't have done what he did so well without dispensationalism. And dispensationalism doesn't work without using the unbiblical word "rapture", to distract peoples' attention from what's actually written in the Bible.
Wierwille didn't invent the swindle, and he isn't the only one who has practiced it.
Geeez, guy! You act as if those who believe/teach pre-tribulation rapture are nothing but dishonest snake-oil salesman/hucksters who are out to get every penny that they can out of us. That there is something about that POV that makes noble men into thieves/liars/whatever.
Lighten up, Frances. Apparently CES believes all of that because to them it appears to be biblical. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. Maybe they have their collective heads shoved up their nethers. But then again, with your *way* oversimplified butchering of what Raf was trying to tell ya, your thinking skills are a couple of sandwiches shy of a picnic as well.
But the term "Rapture" might also be viewed quite simply as a placeholder for the idea and/or interpretations thereof, whether it be ultimately decreed in one's opinion as "biblical" or not. In the same manner when the "Trinity" is under discussion, or "Nativity", or any number of other placeholder terms for areas and interpretations that may come to mind.
I mean, if one brings up the term "rapture", a good many others will understand the essential ideas behind it, whether they personally subscribe to it or not.
But if one proclaims the long-winded, "the gathering together," or "Happy Household Holidays", a good many never in contact with the Way subculture would most likely scratch their heads.
Perhaps I was being 'critical' of the things I read, and perhaps I did 'misunderstand' intentions. My humble Apologies. I'm not too proud to admit my mistakes. Thanks for pointing various things out to me.
I LOVE YOU FOR IT......
I can truly see both sides now..
Oh to separate the Truth from the Error and the Lies, tho. My heart goes out to anyone who has been harmed in anyway, by the TWI or any other group out there. For me it was the JWs that threatened my life with "fear motivation". Talk about an organization that can't see beyond their own Lies. People are truly afraid to leave that group, however, we simply walked away, didn't we? We had more freedom than do the Moonies, and so forth.
Still I think that for 'victims' to continue to live as if still victimized is sad and a waste of come wonderful time in their walks with God and others. Fear is indeed "sand in the machinery of life".
From what I'm learning, while there are people who perhaps are bitter and angry, they may very well have a right to feel that way. I did not walk in their shoes. I do pray peace and love are the things that sustain and protect them from being victims in the future.
I just experienced things differently.
God love and help us all.
It is so sad how the world at large lives in such darkness. There are so many out there who need to hear about God and his great love.
Your last post was honest and welcoming. Your statement "we just walked away didn't we" summed up YOUR experience, and I am glad you are learning that wasn't EVERYONE's experience.
I was 14 when I was introduced to twi at the "Way Presents" in Oakland California in December 1971. I left on December 1, 1999. It was, in fact, my whole life. I did just everything offered including spending 9 years on staff at headquarters. Just "walking away" was the LAST thing I was able to do. It literally took me years to leave, once I had made up my mind.....I had to move to a different state to do it.
It is vital for exwayfers to realize that we all did not have the same EXACT experience, and not to dismiss every experience that was not similar to our own. Welcome to the club J! I think you have figured it out :)-->
quote:It is vital for exwayfers to realize that we all did not have the same EXACT experience, and not to dismiss every experience that was not similar to our own.
Too many things have come up here for me to deal with at this time and on this thread.
As soon as my schedule permits, I'll start a thread on the doctrinal forum re-examining some of the things we took for granted as "truth" in TWI... many of which we still take for granted without any scriptural support whatsoever.
I was up early and late yesterday, with a faculty meeting before school started and a parent/teacher meeting in the evening. Many of us hung around after the formal meeting was over discussing everything from the implications of quantum mechanics to the lust for certainty. It was good, and we didn't get into fights, despite all our different religious backgrounds. Gotta go sleep.
Truth is always self evident, because it produces life and fruit.
Wasn't this also the testimony of Jesus, "you shall know them by there fruits.
Theology isnt truth is it? Theology is literally the study of God to bring us closer to the truth.
Theology should be fun. "Growing in the knowlede of Him"
Interesting that Pilate ( I think) asked Jesus "What is truth" Personally I think it was a good question. God has embodied "Truth" in a person whose character we can possess if we are willing to suffer with him. What more could we ask for?
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mj412
John Lynn has spent a life time teaching..the difference I see is teaching and debate John lynn and the folks of CES will not debate what they believe to be truth they teach it.
I know they try to exhuast a topic in their learning before they put it out as doctrine as much as possible and will discuss the merits of their belifs and how they got to the point and they have even changed their views on certain topics over the years.
But to be swayed by other ideals would be rare, CES has gone into other countries and worked with many different types of folks , they have worked with many different type of folks here.. They offer what they see and believe as truth as "lessons "and try to convince others of the same that is their career and occupation as a organization.
the goal is to teach others what they have worked out as truth from the bible.
The truth is grease spot is not really a platform for bible teaching and enlightenment the posters here who do speak of doctrine like Raf and Steve have been or is a part of what CES offers already.
they do make the link possible for any interested folks but I would think the type of debates and agruement at this thread would be a waste when they want to cater to those who "have ears to hear" the truth as they offer it instead of debating it round and round with other issues or ideals that come up here.
they are quite focused in their mission .
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year2027
God first
Hi All
I understand that John Lynn and CES has a job to do in the household but is not part of that job to love all believers alike
Look John Lynn began a tread here either to send his love or to build up his personal church
I would hope to send his love but as of so far he still on post 1
I seen no reply-s yet
Why are we not good enought to stop by and at least say thanks for you imput but I am not into debating my views
But why is he right and all others wrong
No he just like the rest of us He has things right and things wrong
And if you are looking for the truth you look everywhere even this dark corner called Gease Spot Cafe
But I personal think there a lot of truth here he and me and others can learn from
I have email asking him to at least say hi once in a while its only the loving thing
At times I all most think he afraid of us like the Way is afraid to even post a email address
Now John gives his but he only answers who he see fix
Now I see John and CES as loving people trying to help but they step in to help but have they ran away or will they come back
with love Roy
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WordWolf
Steve Lortz in normal text.
[WordWolf in boldface as usual.]
Please reread your post. You're pretty consistent with painting Darby and others as being evil beings who shoved a pretribulation rapture down people's throats and frustrating the grace of God. From a "character" point of view, it's dishonest, and it reads like a smear campaign. It becomes WORSE when one notes that DARBY DID NOT PREACH A PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE. It appears to me that you're spending energy painting Darby as the scourge of modern Christianity that would be better spent actually checking if Darby taught what you're claiming he taught. At least you're not making that ridiculous claim that Darby invented the concept of a rapture based on a vision of Mc Donald, who ALSO did not believe in a "pretribulation rapture". ]
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GarthP2000
Steve,
Geeez, guy! You act as if those who believe/teach pre-tribulation rapture are nothing but dishonest snake-oil salesman/hucksters who are out to get every penny that they can out of us. That there is something about that POV that makes noble men into thieves/liars/whatever.
Lighten up, Frances. Apparently CES believes all of that because to them it appears to be biblical. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. Maybe they have their collective heads shoved up their nethers. But then again, with your *way* oversimplified butchering of what Raf was trying to tell ya, your thinking skills are a couple of sandwiches shy of a picnic as well.
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TheInvisibleDan
But the term "Rapture" might also be viewed quite simply as a placeholder for the idea and/or interpretations thereof, whether it be ultimately decreed in one's opinion as "biblical" or not. In the same manner when the "Trinity" is under discussion, or "Nativity", or any number of other placeholder terms for areas and interpretations that may come to mind.
I mean, if one brings up the term "rapture", a good many others will understand the essential ideas behind it, whether they personally subscribe to it or not.
But if one proclaims the long-winded, "the gathering together," or "Happy Household Holidays", a good many never in contact with the Way subculture would most likely scratch their heads.
Danny
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jetc57
Goey -- Thank you, and God Bless you.
Perhaps I was being 'critical' of the things I read, and perhaps I did 'misunderstand' intentions. My humble Apologies. I'm not too proud to admit my mistakes. Thanks for pointing various things out to me.
I LOVE YOU FOR IT......
I can truly see both sides now..
Oh to separate the Truth from the Error and the Lies, tho. My heart goes out to anyone who has been harmed in anyway, by the TWI or any other group out there. For me it was the JWs that threatened my life with "fear motivation". Talk about an organization that can't see beyond their own Lies. People are truly afraid to leave that group, however, we simply walked away, didn't we? We had more freedom than do the Moonies, and so forth.
Still I think that for 'victims' to continue to live as if still victimized is sad and a waste of come wonderful time in their walks with God and others. Fear is indeed "sand in the machinery of life".
From what I'm learning, while there are people who perhaps are bitter and angry, they may very well have a right to feel that way. I did not walk in their shoes. I do pray peace and love are the things that sustain and protect them from being victims in the future.
I just experienced things differently.
God love and help us all.
It is so sad how the world at large lives in such darkness. There are so many out there who need to hear about God and his great love.
Shalom
Jeannette
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Radar OReilly
Jeanette,
Your last post was honest and welcoming. Your statement "we just walked away didn't we" summed up YOUR experience, and I am glad you are learning that wasn't EVERYONE's experience.
I was 14 when I was introduced to twi at the "Way Presents" in Oakland California in December 1971. I left on December 1, 1999. It was, in fact, my whole life. I did just everything offered including spending 9 years on staff at headquarters. Just "walking away" was the LAST thing I was able to do. It literally took me years to leave, once I had made up my mind.....I had to move to a different state to do it.
It is vital for exwayfers to realize that we all did not have the same EXACT experience, and not to dismiss every experience that was not similar to our own. Welcome to the club J! I think you have figured it out
:)-->
Radar
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Raf
I nominate this for a 2004 Greasespot Gem Award.
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Steve Lortz
I second Raf's nomination.
Too many things have come up here for me to deal with at this time and on this thread.
As soon as my schedule permits, I'll start a thread on the doctrinal forum re-examining some of the things we took for granted as "truth" in TWI... many of which we still take for granted without any scriptural support whatsoever.
I was up early and late yesterday, with a faculty meeting before school started and a parent/teacher meeting in the evening. Many of us hung around after the formal meeting was over discussing everything from the implications of quantum mechanics to the lust for certainty. It was good, and we didn't get into fights, despite all our different religious backgrounds. Gotta go sleep.
Love,
Steve
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sky4it
Truth is always self evident, because it produces life and fruit.
Wasn't this also the testimony of Jesus, "you shall know them by there fruits.
Theology isnt truth is it? Theology is literally the study of God to bring us closer to the truth.
Theology should be fun. "Growing in the knowlede of Him"
Interesting that Pilate ( I think) asked Jesus "What is truth" Personally I think it was a good question. God has embodied "Truth" in a person whose character we can possess if we are willing to suffer with him. What more could we ask for?
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mj412
Well Im currently asking for more money myself.
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