I wasn’t attacking anyone’s heart to help and I wasn’t attacking anyone’s sincerity, but simply pointing out the lack of accuracy and lack of ability.
Plus, it should also be emphasized that for anyone in JAL’s position to say that Dr would be proud of his work is ludicrous. Not only is it way off in the accuracy department, but even the relevance of such a claim here on this relatively anti-vpw board is but another indication of some extreme incompetence on the part of the claimee. He might as well had said “Oh GreaseSpotters, I come to you in the name of Victor Paul Wierwille so that you might harken unto the sound of my voice!”
***
And waterbuffalo, yes I do think Dr would be pleased with my actions; noT that I’d be stupid enough to think that would carry any weight here on his board.
The reason I say I believe he’d be pleased is because I have gone to the record Dr left us on tape and in print and endeavored to do those things he instructed us to do. Unlike others who rely on vague, faulty memory and a sloppily constructed mind picture of the canon of vpw’s teachings, I go to the record.
quote:Originally posted by Mike:...the canon of vpw’s teachings...
As wacked as VPW ever was, he was never this wacked. Okay, maybe, with the inspired utterance stuff.
Mike, you are a study of a rational mind, dropped into the fishbowl of an irrational belief system and learning to keep afloat with no tangible support beneath, but by an elaborate, illusory scaffolding of "faith" and rationalization. As such, you are more specimen than spokesman, but worth a good look.
You're also like the cooperative subject of a highly-skilled stage hypnotist, who has utterly convinced you that your momentary, microcosmic world of suggestion is the real world, and you act accordingly, obedient to all imaginary principles and constraints, to the amazement, amusement and awe of the audience, you walk through a waking dream.
Have you ever read Anthem by Ayn Rand? Yes, I know she was brought up in Russia and was an atheist, but this short little read describes in detail wayworld. Now, if twi was a Christian ministry, how could that be possible?
Would you be open-minded enough to read the book and discuss? It is very short.
quote: "WE ARE ONE IN ALL AND ALL IN ONE. THERE ARE NO MEN BUT ONLY THE GREAT _WE_, ONE, INDIVISIBLE AND FOREVER."
Ayn Rand
Anthem
quote:And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
All of my exposure to Ayn Rand has been either brief or second-hand, but also positive. I’d love to have the time to read her, but I’d also love to read many more authors.
I don’t think I have to read her to know that wayworld was off the mark. You can see many of the flaws of wayworld in George Orwell’s “Animal Farm” quite clearly.
The flaws of wayworld are things that bog down many other movements and systems of thought. I’ve even seen a great similarity between what Dr reports in his mid 1950’s booklet “The Delemma of the Foreign Missions in India” and what went wrong in the Way Corps.
Maybe you have not been around here long enough to see enough of my thesis to know that I agree that MUCH that was wrong in the ministry, even when Dr was running things prior to 1982. The place where I see great perfection is in the written record we were given, not in the ministry and all of its practices. This written set of doctrines was often at variance with what took place, but it got very little attention when compared to the soundtrack of the film class or to the various verbal traditions that grew up around it. Most awareness of this written record was eventually smothered by the TVTs, and by the mid 80’s, these TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) were the dominant guiding forces in the ministry.
quote:Maybe you have not been around here long enough to see enough of my thesis to know that I agree that MUCH that was wrong in the ministry, even when Dr was running things prior to 1982. The place where I see great perfection is in the written record we were given, not in the ministry and all of its practices.
Mike,
If it didn't work while the great master Wierwille was alive and in charge of "The Ministry" - then what makes you think that it can work now?
quote: "WE ARE ONE IN ALL AND ALL IN ONE. THERE ARE NO MEN BUT ONLY THE GREAT _WE_, ONE, INDIVISIBLE AND FOREVER."
This sounds like the body of Christ to you? Nahhhh... I think it comes closer to sounding more like Spock from Startrek ... "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few..."
quote:"WE ARE ONE IN ALL AND ALL IN ONE. THERE ARE NO MEN BUT ONLY THE GREAT _WE_, ONE, INDIVISIBLE AND FOREVER."
Yes, OM, value was placed in the individual only as they conformed to the GROUP Consciousness in Anthem. Are you saying you think communism is the same as what Jesus was espousing in that verse?
And, by the way, do you have a problem with my asking Mike a question? Are you his Daddy?
quote:Yes, OM, value was placed in the individual only as they conformed to the GROUP Consciousness in Anthem. Are you saying you think communism is the same as what Jesus was espousing in that verse?
And, by the way, do you have a problem with my asking Mike a question? Are you his Daddy?
Waterbuffalo, ahhhh ha ha haaaaaaa, you may ask Mike anything you please, I'm just trying to respond to your statements myself.
What I'm saying is, you seem to be having a problem with folks being likeminded, having the same thoughts, goals, ideals, intentions, etc. well what do you think Jesus came to the world for? for us to be united in eating McDonalds hamburgers, eating at Wendy's, or Crispy Creme?
Just trying to see where you're coming from. If it is an evil thing to relinquish your own ego, that it's good to be truly "independent", maybe you need to rethink what Christianity means and espouses?
Just food for thought. As I said earlier, as a political system, I think Libertarianism is the best. But that political system does conflict with Christianity. Agreed?
quote:What I'm saying is, you seem to be having a problem with folks being likeminded, having the same thoughts, goals, ideals, intentions, etc
No, actually, I don't have a problem with that nor did I imply it. Back to the subject,The above is NOT what Rand is saying at all. Can't help but wonder why you keep comparing those two things as the same. HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.
quote:It sure sounded like you were comparing what Jesus said about being "one" in John was the same, in your opinion, as "the we" in Anthem.
It sounds to me, generally, that Ayn Rand might be disparaging Christian thought and doctrine in her writings. I'm not saying she definitely is, or that her intent is to do so. I'm just looking at what she's writing, and trying to compare it with Christian thought and doctrine, and it looks to me like she could be disparaging Christianity. And the very fact that she's an atheist, might mean she looks on relinquishment of her own ego to a Higher Being, as being sheer folly. So, in essence, she may look at Christianity, as sheer folly.
You seem to feel that relinquishment of your own ego is evil, that that was one of the evils of twi? From what I've seen, relinquishment of your own ego is not evil, in fact its at least a part of Christian thought and doctrine. I supplied some verses, there are many others.
If I am missing the mark, could you then please describe in detail what you mean exactly when you say that Anthem describes what wayworld was/is like. I don't want to misinterpret your meaning or put words in your mouth.
If I had said "the _bulk_ of vpw's teachings" would it have irked you less?
Mike,
You irk me not at all. Honestly. But the word "bulk" would not change anything, unless you mean to say VPW's writings are "bulk" (sort of like fiber, or roughage), and not canonical at all. But that's not what you meant to say, right?
The line I wrote which contained the word "canon" was the one line that you quoted, so I thought your irkulation (or whatever) may have revolved around it.
By canon I meant the “official” and complete collection of his teaching record, as opposed to the various incomplete and distorted sets of his teachings that reside in the minds of grads.
It sounds to me, generally, that Ayn Rand might be disparaging Christian thought and doctrine in her writings. I'm not saying she definitely is, or that her intent is to do so.
This is from foggy memory and a hundred miles off the subject but:
Ayn Rand was a Soviet Jew who immigrated to Hollywood where she worked as an author and screenwiter. In the course of time (among other notable achievements) she founded "Objectivism."
A basic tenet of Objectivism is: all religion is mindless superstition. Objectivism could be called "Atheistic Capitalism."
In her book "The Virtue of Selfishness" she had nothing nice to say about Christianity.
Rand, like Velikovsky (both former Soviet Jews) had devotees within the Way.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
28
25
23
19
Popular Days
Jul 30
50
Aug 10
37
Sep 9
30
Jul 31
28
Top Posters In This Topic
sky4it 28 posts
oldiesman 25 posts
satori001 23 posts
TheSongRemainsTheSame 19 posts
Popular Days
Jul 30 2004
50 posts
Aug 10 2004
37 posts
Sep 9 2004
30 posts
Jul 31 2004
28 posts
waterbuffalo
ooooooooooooooooooooooo. thx, Geo.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Dartainan3m,
I wasn’t attacking anyone’s heart to help and I wasn’t attacking anyone’s sincerity, but simply pointing out the lack of accuracy and lack of ability.
Plus, it should also be emphasized that for anyone in JAL’s position to say that Dr would be proud of his work is ludicrous. Not only is it way off in the accuracy department, but even the relevance of such a claim here on this relatively anti-vpw board is but another indication of some extreme incompetence on the part of the claimee. He might as well had said “Oh GreaseSpotters, I come to you in the name of Victor Paul Wierwille so that you might harken unto the sound of my voice!”
***
And waterbuffalo, yes I do think Dr would be pleased with my actions; noT that I’d be stupid enough to think that would carry any weight here on his board.
The reason I say I believe he’d be pleased is because I have gone to the record Dr left us on tape and in print and endeavored to do those things he instructed us to do. Unlike others who rely on vague, faulty memory and a sloppily constructed mind picture of the canon of vpw’s teachings, I go to the record.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
satori001
Mike, you are a study of a rational mind, dropped into the fishbowl of an irrational belief system and learning to keep afloat with no tangible support beneath, but by an elaborate, illusory scaffolding of "faith" and rationalization. As such, you are more specimen than spokesman, but worth a good look.
You're also like the cooperative subject of a highly-skilled stage hypnotist, who has utterly convinced you that your momentary, microcosmic world of suggestion is the real world, and you act accordingly, obedient to all imaginary principles and constraints, to the amazement, amusement and awe of the audience, you walk through a waking dream.
Carry on, Mike.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waterbuffalo
Mike,
Have you ever read Anthem by Ayn Rand? Yes, I know she was brought up in Russia and was an atheist, but this short little read describes in detail wayworld. Now, if twi was a Christian ministry, how could that be possible?
Would you be open-minded enough to read the book and discuss? It is very short.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Anthem
Jesus ChristJohn 17:11
Waterbuffalo, and your problem is what, exactly?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Waterbuffalo,
All of my exposure to Ayn Rand has been either brief or second-hand, but also positive. I’d love to have the time to read her, but I’d also love to read many more authors.
I don’t think I have to read her to know that wayworld was off the mark. You can see many of the flaws of wayworld in George Orwell’s “Animal Farm” quite clearly.
The flaws of wayworld are things that bog down many other movements and systems of thought. I’ve even seen a great similarity between what Dr reports in his mid 1950’s booklet “The Delemma of the Foreign Missions in India” and what went wrong in the Way Corps.
Maybe you have not been around here long enough to see enough of my thesis to know that I agree that MUCH that was wrong in the ministry, even when Dr was running things prior to 1982. The place where I see great perfection is in the written record we were given, not in the ministry and all of its practices. This written set of doctrines was often at variance with what took place, but it got very little attention when compared to the soundtrack of the film class or to the various verbal traditions that grew up around it. Most awareness of this written record was eventually smothered by the TVTs, and by the mid 80’s, these TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) were the dominant guiding forces in the ministry.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
satori,
If I had said "the bulk of vpw's teachings" would it have irked you less?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waterbuffalo
Mike,
The problem with the Way Corps and ministry was the founder. He set the doctrines both practically and in his written materials.
Agreed?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Posted By Mike:
Mike,
If it didn't work while the great master Wierwille was alive and in charge of "The Ministry" - then what makes you think that it can work now?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
What The Hay
This sounds like the body of Christ to you? Nahhhh... I think it comes closer to sounding more like Spock from Startrek ... "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few..."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waterbuffalo
Yes, OM, value was placed in the individual only as they conformed to the GROUP Consciousness in Anthem. Are you saying you think communism is the same as what Jesus was espousing in that verse?
And, by the way, do you have a problem with my asking Mike a question? Are you his Daddy?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
What I'm saying is, you seem to be having a problem with folks being likeminded, having the same thoughts, goals, ideals, intentions, etc. well what do you think Jesus came to the world for? for us to be united in eating McDonalds hamburgers, eating at Wendy's, or Crispy Creme?
Just trying to see where you're coming from. If it is an evil thing to relinquish your own ego, that it's good to be truly "independent", maybe you need to rethink what Christianity means and espouses?
Just food for thought. As I said earlier, as a political system, I think Libertarianism is the best. But that political system does conflict with Christianity. Agreed?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
I dunno, I find myself reminded of the ramblings of another great MOG of our time - Dr. Bronner (you know, the soap guy).
"Five Billion strong and we're all one, exceptions eternally - absolutely none!"
Am I the only one who actually READ the label?
Talk about odd. The only stream-of-conscious labeling I'm aware of.
Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled.
BTW, Satori, I found myself chuckling along with your description of our resident Wierwille guru. A specimen indeed. Talk about your pathologies...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waterbuffalo
OM,
Why go back and change the verse in John to two in Galatians AFTER I respond?
It sure sounded like you were comparing what Jesus said about being "one" in John was the same, in your opinion, as "the we" in Anthem.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waterbuffalo
OM said:
No, actually, I don't have a problem with that nor did I imply it. Back to the subject,The above is NOT what Rand is saying at all. Can't help but wonder why you keep comparing those two things as the same. HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
You seem to feel that relinquishment of your own ego is evil, that that was one of the evils of twi? From what I've seen, relinquishment of your own ego is not evil, in fact its at least a part of Christian thought and doctrine. I supplied some verses, there are many others.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waterbuffalo
Mike,
Please reconsider reading the book if only to prove me and many others here wrong. I think it would serve as an eyeopener for you.
I'll check back on Sunday to see if you still want to discuss. Sorry I have to leave now for the weekend :-)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waterbuffalo
OM said:
OM, that subject was not brought up prior to your statement above and has not been discussed by me. So how would you know my views regarding it?
Obviously, there are many points of potential comparison and I have only mentioned a few, the ego discussion not being one of them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Waterbuffalo,
If I am missing the mark, could you then please describe in detail what you mean exactly when you say that Anthem describes what wayworld was/is like. I don't want to misinterpret your meaning or put words in your mouth.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Have a great weekend, one and all!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
satori001
You irk me not at all. Honestly. But the word "bulk" would not change anything, unless you mean to say VPW's writings are "bulk" (sort of like fiber, or roughage), and not canonical at all. But that's not what you meant to say, right?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Satori,
The line I wrote which contained the word "canon" was the one line that you quoted, so I thought your irkulation (or whatever) may have revolved around it.
By canon I meant the “official” and complete collection of his teaching record, as opposed to the various incomplete and distorted sets of his teachings that reside in the minds of grads.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lovematters
This is from foggy memory and a hundred miles off the subject but:
Ayn Rand was a Soviet Jew who immigrated to Hollywood where she worked as an author and screenwiter. In the course of time (among other notable achievements) she founded "Objectivism."
A basic tenet of Objectivism is: all religion is mindless superstition. Objectivism could be called "Atheistic Capitalism."
In her book "The Virtue of Selfishness" she had nothing nice to say about Christianity.
Rand, like Velikovsky (both former Soviet Jews) had devotees within the Way.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.