quote:oldiesman - Thanks for posting what you did. The impression I took away from the document was that the BOT's failure to communicate was one of the signers' big problems. That may have come from the discussions going on around the document at the time I got to read it. I think it would be a service if you could post the whole thing in the WayDale/Misc. Documents section. Then I could refresh my memory of the whole thing.
Steve Lortz,
I just emailed a PDF file of the document to Pawtucket, asking if he could post it. If you want it as well, send me your email address, through PT.
What is that a picture of actually. At first i thought it was a salamander only to look at little closer and it has two green eyes coming out of its head? Is that my mother in law?
My name is Billy Darr, and like many here I've been sitting back taking in the response to John Lynn's post. I wasn't going to chime in at first, but in light of some of what has been said here I thought I could shed some light on a few things.
At the risk of instantly discounting myself and my perspective with all of you, I will let you know that I work at the CES/Spirit & Truth home office in Indianapolis. I am 30 years old and had no affiliation with or knowledge of The Way International before my involvement with this ministry (though I can assure you that the past two years I have received quite an education in all of the good and bad associated with TWI. And, for the record, I tend to see a bit more bad than good.)
I'm not here to try and "recruit" any of you to check us out. You're all grown adults and can make your own decisions. I am also not here to defend John Lynn, who is quite capable of defending himself if he sees fit. I AM here to debunk some unfair and borderline slanderous things that have been said on this and other boards.
I take particular issue with such comments such as:
Sartori "Dartanian, I'm sure CES lawyers (in other words, his "handlers"), sharing his own fears, have forbidden (FORBIDDEN) him to communicate here any further. Imagine the potential loss of revenue should he go on record (truthfully or not), and his in-CES'd-uous followers get passing wind of it.."
Sartori, perhaps you're basing your assumptions on the way things were handled in TWI (which I'm assuming would also be the reason for the various comments made by others about John's "badge" and his suits), but that's not the way things are handled with this ministry. We have and will continue to seek legal advice when needed, but we neither have a lawyer nor a legal team on staff. And John (or anyone else in this ministry) is certainly not at the mercy of some legal "handler" who is only concerned about the financial bottom line.
Some have painted a picture of STFI/CES as a group of ex-Way folks blindly following their favorite superstars John Lynn, John Schoenheit & Mark Graeser. Though many of the people associated with this ministry are ex-TWI, most of the new people who find us via our various methods of outreach are COMPLETELY independent of TWI. They have been in denominational churches for years and have seen the holes in the practices and doctrines, studied the Bible for themselves, found us, and have liked what we have to offer. If what we're teaching is just "rehashed VPW teaching," why are others who have NEVER heard of VPW OR his teachings coming to us and saying "you teach EXACTLY what I've believed for years?"
Also, for the record, since the "Way days," John Schoenheit has completed coursework at Reformed Theological Seminary in North Carolina, and Mark Graeser is currently a Master's student at Earlham School of Religion in Richmond, IN. I guess that debunks the myth that "LGS" are simply stuck in their old Way teachings and unwilling to check out courses of academic study.
I'm very blessed that this place exists, though I'm often frustrated by the bitterness, cynicism, and anger that I see unleashed here. I'm not under the impression that STFI/CES has no skeletons in the closet - we're human after all - but I can honestly say that the people I work with every day (both paid and volunteer) do their best to honor Jesus Christ and serve His Body. It upsets me to see so many good, hard working people be completely dishonored by a few who don't know better. Now you know.
There's much, much more to say, but I'll sign off for now. Thanks for hearing me out.
Nice note, Billy. You address a few minor points, the least of which is whether or not you have a "legal team" advising what John Lynn may or may not put here in writing.
I believe you when you say you have no TWI-like legal department, however you are in no position to know what legal considerations John may have pondered or perused. I am, of course, because I (as many here will tell you) am omniscient. Okay, not quite, but neither have I just fallen off the turnip truck, and that passes for "omniscience" often enough around here.
Anyone in any executive capacity of any organization bearing any potential liability had better damn well consider the legal ramifications before spouting off in print. If you don't think John Lynn has, well, you are only 30.
Even though you don't speak for CES, I'm wondering if you can speak to some of the other issues raised.
You did mention the scholastic credentials Mark and John S have sought to acquire. But credentials mean they passed courses. It doesn't tell us what a dialogue might. Nice to hear, but the criticism is just as valid. They seem closed to everything but their own little world, and that perception does not change with a piece of paper.
What is your opinion of Momentus?
Have you found John, John & Mark accessible and willing to consider your own opinions? Have you differed with anything they may have taught and offered an alternative view, or worse yet, a correction?
You said, "I'm not under the impression that STFI/CES has no skeletons in the closet - we're human after all..." If there were any "skeletons," are you confident they are all in the past, and bear absolutely no relevance to the present organization, its people, or its policies?
Does it concern you at all that these founders of CES, especially John Lynn, were a part (directly or indirectly) of a long-term, virtual conspiracy to deceive the followers of TWI about its very nature, and the behavior and character of its founder and leadership, AND its teachings? And now their hearts are "healed" I guess?
It's good that you read what is written here, and good that you bring your best judgment to bear on what you read. I only caution you not to equate anger with error. The word "bitterness" used here is a pejoritive, and serves only to discredit the experience or opinion of someone who is rightfully angry. Cynicism, likewise, does not rule here. Many are reasonably skeptical, and also reasonably cynical, but few (other than TWI's apologists) are blinded by those attitudes.
Even though you do not in any way speak on CES' behalf, I would like to see you take a stab at answering more of the questions raised here, rather than simply defending your friends.
By the way, some ex-Wayfers used to call PFAL "piffle," back in the daze. Do you guys call STFI "Stiffy" yet? Just a suggestion, and it's kind of funny, given CES's TWI lineage. Of course, I can accept that some may not find it so funny.
Though many of the people associated with this ministry are ex-TWI, most of the new people who find us via our various methods of outreach are COMPLETELY independent of TWI. They have been in denominational churches for years and have seen the holes in the practices and doctrines, studied the Bible for themselves, found us, and have liked what we have to offer.
Billy,
Those who agree with LSG teachings that raise antithesis against such truths as the eternal existence and deity of Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit and God's exhaustive knowledge of future events have unbelieving assumptions rather than Scripture-based doctrinal commitments.
My name is Billy Darr, and like many here I've been sitting back taking in the response to John Lynn's post. I wasn't going to chime in at first, but in light of some of what has been said here I thought I could shed some light on a few things.
At the risk of instantly discounting myself and my perspective with all of you, I will let you know that I work at the CES/Spirit & Truth home office in Indianapolis. I am 30 years old and had no affiliation with or knowledge of The Way International before my involvement with this ministry (though I can assure you that the past two years I have received quite an education in all of the good and bad associated with TWI. And, for the record, I tend to see a bit more bad than good.)
I'm not here to try and "recruit" any of you to check us out. You're all grown adults and can make your own decisions. I am also not here to defend John Lynn, who is quite capable of defending himself if he sees fit. I AM here to debunk some unfair and borderline slanderous things that have been said on this and other boards.
I take particular issue with such comments such as:
Sartori "Dartanian, I'm sure CES lawyers (in other words, his "handlers"), sharing his own fears, have forbidden (FORBIDDEN) him to communicate here any further. Imagine the potential loss of revenue should he go on record (truthfully or not), and his in-CES'd-uous followers get passing wind of it.."
Sartori, perhaps you're basing your assumptions on the way things were handled in TWI (which I'm assuming would also be the reason for the various comments made by others about John's "badge" and his suits), but that's not the way things are handled with this ministry. We have and will continue to seek legal advice when needed, but we neither have a lawyer nor a legal team on staff. And John (or anyone else in this ministry) is certainly not at the mercy of some legal "handler" who is only concerned about the financial bottom line.
Some have painted a picture of STFI/CES as a group of ex-Way folks blindly following their favorite superstars John Lynn, John Schoenheit & Mark Graeser. Though many of the people associated with this ministry are ex-TWI, most of the new people who find us via our various methods of outreach are COMPLETELY independent of TWI. They have been in denominational churches for years and have seen the holes in the practices and doctrines, studied the Bible for themselves, found us, and have liked what we have to offer. If what we're teaching is just "rehashed VPW teaching," why are others who have NEVER heard of VPW OR his teachings coming to us and saying "you teach EXACTLY what I've believed for years?"
Also, for the record, since the "Way days," John Schoenheit has completed coursework at Reformed Theological Seminary in North Carolina, and Mark Graeser is currently a Master's student at Earlham School of Religion in Richmond, IN. I guess that debunks the myth that "LGS" are simply stuck in their old Way teachings and unwilling to check out courses of academic study.
I'm very blessed that this place exists, though I'm often frustrated by the bitterness, cynicism, and anger that I see unleashed here. I'm not under the impression that STFI/CES has no skeletons in the closet - we're human after all - but I can honestly say that the people I work with every day (both paid and volunteer) do their best to honor Jesus Christ and serve His Body. It upsets me to see so many good, hard working people be completely dishonored by a few who don't know better. Now you know.
There's much, much more to say, but I'll sign off for now. Thanks for hearing me out.
You beat me to it. "Stiffy!" I really didn't like the name change, to me it still sounds like a local community church, but I think I can get used to the acronym.
"it upsets me to see so many good , hard working people be completely dishonored by a few who do not know better".
followed by "now you know"
well well well I feel the exact same way about CES and spirit and truth , how they began their group how they maintain their arrogant pompous attitude and can even teach it to more who do not "know better".
Im the one who wrote about how john and mark are very happy working when they dam well feel like it, traveling when they want to, and going to school on your pay check billy. those two have 8 children that will also have their college tuition paid for by you and your loyal paycheck. it is a good life isnt it?
they built the ministry on their split from twi, followers trained to pay more than 10% by John Lynn himself in twi continue to do so.. and many more than not are still involved with them. they buy their way to God favor.
Way corpes allowed them to live high in twi , and they will continue the lifestyle they want , they know how to do it no doubt . um billy boy where do you think they learned such skills to be going to college now so they can start a fresh new ministry without those pesky twi followers who can see a PATTERN of abuse in this. and get some credits without the cult monkey forever it may be needed to keep it going you know for the kids and all someday. IF you had the perspective I have from years of what they have been doing anyone can clearly see they know how to do what they do very well and that is take care of their own at any cost. mostly anyone who would question them, or have the WHOLE story on just how they have gotten this far will be trashed or dismissed in any way possible .
like you said there is plenty who just do NOT KNOW who believe what they say must be the whole truth and it isnt by far.
trust them??? for those who like to tell storys and teach others they sure do leave out huge chunks of their own honest history.
"At the risk of instantly discounting myself and my perspective with all of you, I will let you know that I work at the CES/Spirit & Truth home office in Indianapolis. I am 30 years old and had no affiliation with or knowledge of The Way International before my involvement with this ministry (though I can assure you that the past two years I have received quite an education in all of the good and bad associated with TWI. And, for the record, I tend to see a bit more bad than good.)"
How unlikly is it that two sets of writings, occuring 18 years apart, One written under the influence of TWI and never been to CES, and the other one never been TWI and written under the influence of CES be so alike in content?
Here are bits & pieces of that letter I wrote under the unfluence of TWI 18 summers ago:
Date 7/86
quote~~~ "...I wanted to write you concerning my heart for the Word of God and The Way Ministry...
...I know you have been doing some studies on cults and there attributes. I know and believe it is wise to be aware of false doctrines, fiery darts of the wicked, traditions of men, and doctrines of devils...
...I very well know a lot of the teachings, criticism, derogatory and slanderous remarks and articles written about The Way. I do not stand in defence of the ministry or in defence of the Word of God because they need no defence.I have checked out many many of these accusations and found them to be out of context, biased, and out and out vicious lies...
...I have seen people who stood for this ministry for years and speak out against it saying they have been brainwashed or hoodwinked....
...God is no respector of persons but of conditions set forth in His Word...I have seen great deliverence in my life from drugs, emptiness, and a terrible accident I suffered... I am not suppose to be able to run, walk, or squat... it impossible for me to do those activities according to my x rays and the orthopedic doctors/surgeons... I was and still delivered by the Word of God this ministry has taught me...
...I tell you I am not saying these things because I am brainwashed, manipulated, tortured, or fearful, but because I know that I know that I know that I am completely, completely, completely complete in God in Christ in me...
...So I just thought I would send you a magazine and a few other items this ministry publishes to show you a more realistic look about The Way. You must know both sides to make a decision. OUR MINISTRY HAS NOTHING TO HIDE. YOU ARE FREE TO COME AND YOU ARE FREE TO GO. NO STRINGS ATTACHED...
...I am not trying to persuade you into what we know and believe to be truth of God's Word. Only to enlighten you as what we of The Way really stand for and that is : the inherrant accuracy of The Word of God.
...So just read the stuff I send you and then make a decesion before you believe those accusations set against us. Even a court of law will do this. It is a principle of the Word anyway..."
[God bless and hello. Welcome to the GSC, as I call it.]
My name is Billy Darr, and like many here I've been sitting back taking in the response to John Lynn's post. I wasn't going to chime in at first, but in light of some of what has been said here I thought I could shed some light on a few things.
At the risk of instantly discounting myself and my perspective with all of you, I will let you know that I work at the CES/Spirit & Truth home office in Indianapolis. I am 30 years old and had no affiliation with or knowledge of The Way International before my involvement with this ministry (though I can assure you that the past two years I have received quite an education in all of the good and bad associated with TWI. And, for the record, I tend to see a bit more bad than good.)
[Very few of us will categorically dismiss what you have to say before hearing you out. We had far too much of that in twi. I would strongly recommend, however, a lengthy study into things concerning twi. You can actually do that from here, all over the links, documents and archives, and asking questions when you don't see what you're looking for. I suspect you will be AMAZED for a number of reasons. ]
I'm not here to try and "recruit" any of you to check us out. You're all grown adults and can make your own decisions. I am also not here to defend John Lynn, who is quite capable of defending himself if he sees fit. I AM here to debunk some unfair and borderline slanderous things that have been said on this and other boards.
I take particular issue with such comments such as:
Sartori "Dartanian, I'm sure CES lawyers (in other words, his "handlers"), sharing his own fears, have forbidden (FORBIDDEN) him to communicate here any further. Imagine the potential loss of revenue should he go on record (truthfully or not), and his in-CES'd-uous followers get passing wind of it.."
Sartori, perhaps you're basing your assumptions on the way things were handled in TWI (which I'm assuming would also be the reason for the various comments made by others about John's "badge" and his suits), but that's not the way things are handled with this ministry. We have and will continue to seek legal advice when needed, but we neither have a lawyer nor a legal team on staff. And John (or anyone else in this ministry) is certainly not at the mercy of some legal "handler" who is only concerned about the financial bottom line.
[An insistence on EXCLUSIVELY private conversations where he controls the content, to the exclusion of ALL open communication, DOES look very suspicious to most of us....]
Some have painted a picture of STFI/CES as a group of ex-Way folks blindly following their favorite superstars John Lynn, John Schoenheit & Mark Graeser. Though many of the people associated with this ministry are ex-TWI, most of the new people who find us via our various methods of outreach are COMPLETELY independent of TWI. They have been in denominational churches for years and have seen the holes in the practices and doctrines, studied the Bible for themselves, found us, and have liked what we have to offer. If what we're teaching is just "rehashed VPW teaching," why are others who have NEVER heard of VPW OR his teachings coming to us and saying "you teach EXACTLY what I've believed for years?"
[ Now, this is one of the reasons I recommend spending some time getting to know about twi. Some people claimed twi was the greatest, that they were the best Bible teachers out there, that, supposedly, it was the greatest thing since the first century Christian church. Yet, as you've seen, this organization also taught error and destroyed lives. The issues aren't quite as simple as you might think. In fact, even if 100% of everything you taught was "rehashed VPW teaching", you might get those statements. VPW was quite the showman, as are some others. Even Jim Jones gathered a following, and he didn't have ANY Bible.... I'm curious how much of what VPW taught that you know of, since that largely will affect your evaluation of same. ]
Also, for the record, since the "Way days," John Schoenheit has completed coursework at Reformed Theological Seminary in North Carolina, and Mark Graeser is currently a Master's student at Earlham School of Religion in Richmond, IN. I guess that debunks the myth that "LGS" are simply stuck in their old Way teachings and unwilling to check out courses of academic study.
[ Supposedly, VPW received both his Masters and Doctorate, and the Masters was from a respectable institution. However, that's not the point I wanted to make. As other already pointed out, being educated in things is good, but it is NEVER a guarantee that you will USE that education. I'm familiar with doctrines of all kinds from a variety of denominations, and non-Christian groups, even. That's no guarantee that EXPOSURE to a doctrine or idea results in a CHANGE. One can hold an opinion and dogmatically retain it in the face of new ideas and new doctrines. (We've seen that one before, also.) Whether or not LSG are stuck in old Way teachings can best be addressed by a dialogue on what they're currently teaching. However, they seem to be vetoing such a dialogue. ]
I'm very blessed that this place exists, though I'm often frustrated by the bitterness, cynicism, and anger that I see unleashed here.
[ So am I. However, I accept that a certain amount of bitterness here is necessary for the growth of people struggling to escape twi, or put their lives back after twi, or putting twi behind them. Of course, not all bitterness need lead to healing, either. No matter what, it IS a huge change from the sterlized, Stepfordized world of twi, where people don't bleed or sweat. (Perhaps it doesn't sound so alien to you, perhaps not.) ]
I'm not under the impression that STFI/CES has no skeletons in the closet - we're human after all - but I can honestly say that the people I work with every day (both paid and volunteer) do their best to honor Jesus Christ and serve His Body. It upsets me to see so many good, hard working people be completely dishonored by a few who don't know better. Now you know.
[ Please don't take offense at this-it's not MEANT as an insult, but we do not "know" now, and neither do you. This was the opening of dialogue that would facilitate information flow, which can result in us BOTH "knowing" later on. I would like to see that happen, if at all possible. ]
There's much, much more to say, but I'll sign off for now. Thanks for hearing me out.
[ Thanks for posting. I hope you return and continue to dialogue with us. I think there's much we can both learn, some of it surprises to us both. Keep in mind that not all communications here will be pretty, nor all of them well-written. Please accept this as a consequence of the open-dialogues we have here. ]
I really enjoyed reading this paragraph in your first post:
No, Dart, Jesus went down into the valley of human need and dared his adversaries to their faces so well, handled their debate challenges so well, that their only recourse was violence, and even that had to be under the cover of darkness. He went to the people who were hurting and put up with a lot of their bs, as well as their moaning and groaning and unbelief because he loved them. His mission was the impossible, and he made it possible for those with the REAL Christ in them to do it too.
What a beautiful description of true love, Mike. It reminds me of one of my favorite poems entitled "Love is Brown" written by Barry ? years ago.
Mike don't slap yourself on the back too hard please...what was the context of expounding upon your meaning of true love...
the paragraph preceding it sets the stage...
YOU SAID "I’ve watched this whole JAL single-event, drive-by-posting with his emissary advance man careful testing the water temperature and tasting the food for him weeks ahead of time. I’ve seen how he is simply culling,via his ground rules, through all the moaners and groaners for few potential back-slappers who might still dig his style or Bible tid-bits. He can slap their backs and they can slap his, and simply ignore those with no such predisposition."
Then you said....
"No, Dart, Jesus went down into the valley of human need and dared his adversaries to their faces so well, handled their debate challenges so well, that their only recourse was violence, and even that had to be under the cover of darkness. He went to the people who were hurting and put up with a lot of their bs, as well as their moaning and groaning and unbelief because he loved them. His mission was the impossible, and he made it possible for those with the REAL Christ in them to do it too."
A beautiful selection of words eliquently put in a backdrop to attack the creditabilty of 2 men ..nothing more or nothing less...
yes those were fine words taken by themselves- and are likened to diamonds- BUT in the context that you set them they stand as a setting of "fine" LEAD...not words to inspire me but words to promote your condemnation ...HOW DARE YOU ASSUME TO KNOW THE HEARTS AND INTENTS OF JEFF AND JAL...
be honest with yourself Mike...I wish you no illwill...
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oldiesman
Steve Lortz,
I just emailed a PDF file of the document to Pawtucket, asking if he could post it. If you want it as well, send me your email address, through PT.
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Raf
Good news, everyone! John Lynn's been spotted! It was tough to see him and he didn't have time to chat, but I can verify that he does, in fact, exist!
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Hope R.
Geez - I could have sworn I saw him taking a swim...
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sky4it
Raf:
What is that a picture of actually. At first i thought it was a salamander only to look at little closer and it has two green eyes coming out of its head? Is that my mother in law?
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Billy D
Greetings everyone and God bless!
My name is Billy Darr, and like many here I've been sitting back taking in the response to John Lynn's post. I wasn't going to chime in at first, but in light of some of what has been said here I thought I could shed some light on a few things.
At the risk of instantly discounting myself and my perspective with all of you, I will let you know that I work at the CES/Spirit & Truth home office in Indianapolis. I am 30 years old and had no affiliation with or knowledge of The Way International before my involvement with this ministry (though I can assure you that the past two years I have received quite an education in all of the good and bad associated with TWI. And, for the record, I tend to see a bit more bad than good.)
I'm not here to try and "recruit" any of you to check us out. You're all grown adults and can make your own decisions. I am also not here to defend John Lynn, who is quite capable of defending himself if he sees fit. I AM here to debunk some unfair and borderline slanderous things that have been said on this and other boards.
I take particular issue with such comments such as:
Sartori "Dartanian, I'm sure CES lawyers (in other words, his "handlers"), sharing his own fears, have forbidden (FORBIDDEN) him to communicate here any further. Imagine the potential loss of revenue should he go on record (truthfully or not), and his in-CES'd-uous followers get passing wind of it.."
Sartori, perhaps you're basing your assumptions on the way things were handled in TWI (which I'm assuming would also be the reason for the various comments made by others about John's "badge" and his suits), but that's not the way things are handled with this ministry. We have and will continue to seek legal advice when needed, but we neither have a lawyer nor a legal team on staff. And John (or anyone else in this ministry) is certainly not at the mercy of some legal "handler" who is only concerned about the financial bottom line.
Some have painted a picture of STFI/CES as a group of ex-Way folks blindly following their favorite superstars John Lynn, John Schoenheit & Mark Graeser. Though many of the people associated with this ministry are ex-TWI, most of the new people who find us via our various methods of outreach are COMPLETELY independent of TWI. They have been in denominational churches for years and have seen the holes in the practices and doctrines, studied the Bible for themselves, found us, and have liked what we have to offer. If what we're teaching is just "rehashed VPW teaching," why are others who have NEVER heard of VPW OR his teachings coming to us and saying "you teach EXACTLY what I've believed for years?"
Also, for the record, since the "Way days," John Schoenheit has completed coursework at Reformed Theological Seminary in North Carolina, and Mark Graeser is currently a Master's student at Earlham School of Religion in Richmond, IN. I guess that debunks the myth that "LGS" are simply stuck in their old Way teachings and unwilling to check out courses of academic study.
I'm very blessed that this place exists, though I'm often frustrated by the bitterness, cynicism, and anger that I see unleashed here. I'm not under the impression that STFI/CES has no skeletons in the closet - we're human after all - but I can honestly say that the people I work with every day (both paid and volunteer) do their best to honor Jesus Christ and serve His Body. It upsets me to see so many good, hard working people be completely dishonored by a few who don't know better. Now you know.
There's much, much more to say, but I'll sign off for now. Thanks for hearing me out.
Love in Christ,
Billy Darr
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Galen
Billy D:
"Greetings everyone and God bless!"
Welcome aboard.
". . . in light of some of what has been said here I thought I could shed some light on a few things."
Thank you, though to be honest, I doubt it will do any good.
". . . I AM here to debunk some unfair and borderline slanderous things that have been said on this and other boards."
Good luck, sir.
". . . why are others who have NEVER heard of VPW OR his teachings coming to us and saying "you teach EXACTLY what I've believed for years?"
Obviously because they are finding something really good.
"I'm very blessed that this place exists, though I'm often frustrated by the bitterness, cynicism, and anger that I see unleashed here."
As am I.
"I can honestly say that the people I work with every day (both paid and volunteer) do their best to honor Jesus Christ and serve His Body."
I beleive you.
Thank you for telling us your point of view Billy, please do come here again.
May God Bless you and keep you.
Galen
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satori001
Nice note, Billy. You address a few minor points, the least of which is whether or not you have a "legal team" advising what John Lynn may or may not put here in writing.
I believe you when you say you have no TWI-like legal department, however you are in no position to know what legal considerations John may have pondered or perused. I am, of course, because I (as many here will tell you) am omniscient. Okay, not quite, but neither have I just fallen off the turnip truck, and that passes for "omniscience" often enough around here.
Anyone in any executive capacity of any organization bearing any potential liability had better damn well consider the legal ramifications before spouting off in print. If you don't think John Lynn has, well, you are only 30.
Even though you don't speak for CES, I'm wondering if you can speak to some of the other issues raised.
You did mention the scholastic credentials Mark and John S have sought to acquire. But credentials mean they passed courses. It doesn't tell us what a dialogue might. Nice to hear, but the criticism is just as valid. They seem closed to everything but their own little world, and that perception does not change with a piece of paper.
What is your opinion of Momentus?
Have you found John, John & Mark accessible and willing to consider your own opinions? Have you differed with anything they may have taught and offered an alternative view, or worse yet, a correction?
You said, "I'm not under the impression that STFI/CES has no skeletons in the closet - we're human after all..." If there were any "skeletons," are you confident they are all in the past, and bear absolutely no relevance to the present organization, its people, or its policies?
Does it concern you at all that these founders of CES, especially John Lynn, were a part (directly or indirectly) of a long-term, virtual conspiracy to deceive the followers of TWI about its very nature, and the behavior and character of its founder and leadership, AND its teachings? And now their hearts are "healed" I guess?
It's good that you read what is written here, and good that you bring your best judgment to bear on what you read. I only caution you not to equate anger with error. The word "bitterness" used here is a pejoritive, and serves only to discredit the experience or opinion of someone who is rightfully angry. Cynicism, likewise, does not rule here. Many are reasonably skeptical, and also reasonably cynical, but few (other than TWI's apologists) are blinded by those attitudes.
Even though you do not in any way speak on CES' behalf, I would like to see you take a stab at answering more of the questions raised here, rather than simply defending your friends.
By the way, some ex-Wayfers used to call PFAL "piffle," back in the daze. Do you guys call STFI "Stiffy" yet? Just a suggestion, and it's kind of funny, given CES's TWI lineage. Of course, I can accept that some may not find it so funny.
Regards...
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Cynic
Billy,
Those who agree with LSG teachings that raise antithesis against such truths as the eternal existence and deity of Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit and God's exhaustive knowledge of future events have unbelieving assumptions rather than Scripture-based doctrinal commitments.
http://new.wavlist.com/movies/194/ojw-business.wav
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satori001
Billy, in other words, their dog don't hunt (the doctrine don't wash).
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satori001
What can I say? It's quotable.
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Oakspear
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rascal
Dear Billy D, Welcome, and thankyou for having the courtesy to read and respond to what we have written in a carefull and considered manner.
That shows respect ....
Thankyou for having the courtesy and taking the the time to clear up misconceptions.
My husband enjoys the materials has recieved materials from ces....so I know that there are people who benfit from ces` efforts.
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wwjesuslaughat
Satori,
You beat me to it. "Stiffy!" I really didn't like the name change, to me it still sounds like a local community church, but I think I can get used to the acronym.
Thanks!
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mj412
"it upsets me to see so many good , hard working people be completely dishonored by a few who do not know better".
followed by "now you know"
well well well I feel the exact same way about CES and spirit and truth , how they began their group how they maintain their arrogant pompous attitude and can even teach it to more who do not "know better".
Im the one who wrote about how john and mark are very happy working when they dam well feel like it, traveling when they want to, and going to school on your pay check billy. those two have 8 children that will also have their college tuition paid for by you and your loyal paycheck. it is a good life isnt it?
they built the ministry on their split from twi, followers trained to pay more than 10% by John Lynn himself in twi continue to do so.. and many more than not are still involved with them. they buy their way to God favor.
Way corpes allowed them to live high in twi , and they will continue the lifestyle they want , they know how to do it no doubt . um billy boy where do you think they learned such skills to be going to college now so they can start a fresh new ministry without those pesky twi followers who can see a PATTERN of abuse in this. and get some credits without the cult monkey forever it may be needed to keep it going you know for the kids and all someday. IF you had the perspective I have from years of what they have been doing anyone can clearly see they know how to do what they do very well and that is take care of their own at any cost. mostly anyone who would question them, or have the WHOLE story on just how they have gotten this far will be trashed or dismissed in any way possible .
like you said there is plenty who just do NOT KNOW who believe what they say must be the whole truth and it isnt by far.
trust them??? for those who like to tell storys and teach others they sure do leave out huge chunks of their own honest history.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Bill D.
Welcome.
"At the risk of instantly discounting myself and my perspective with all of you, I will let you know that I work at the CES/Spirit & Truth home office in Indianapolis. I am 30 years old and had no affiliation with or knowledge of The Way International before my involvement with this ministry (though I can assure you that the past two years I have received quite an education in all of the good and bad associated with TWI. And, for the record, I tend to see a bit more bad than good.)"
How unlikly is it that two sets of writings, occuring 18 years apart, One written under the influence of TWI and never been to CES, and the other one never been TWI and written under the influence of CES be so alike in content?
Here are bits & pieces of that letter I wrote under the unfluence of TWI 18 summers ago:
Date 7/86
quote~~~ "...I wanted to write you concerning my heart for the Word of God and The Way Ministry...
...I know you have been doing some studies on cults and there attributes. I know and believe it is wise to be aware of false doctrines, fiery darts of the wicked, traditions of men, and doctrines of devils...
...I very well know a lot of the teachings, criticism, derogatory and slanderous remarks and articles written about The Way. I do not stand in defence of the ministry or in defence of the Word of God because they need no defence.I have checked out many many of these accusations and found them to be out of context, biased, and out and out vicious lies...
...I have seen people who stood for this ministry for years and speak out against it saying they have been brainwashed or hoodwinked....
...God is no respector of persons but of conditions set forth in His Word...I have seen great deliverence in my life from drugs, emptiness, and a terrible accident I suffered... I am not suppose to be able to run, walk, or squat... it impossible for me to do those activities according to my x rays and the orthopedic doctors/surgeons... I was and still delivered by the Word of God this ministry has taught me...
...I tell you I am not saying these things because I am brainwashed, manipulated, tortured, or fearful, but because I know that I know that I know that I am completely, completely, completely complete in God in Christ in me...
...So I just thought I would send you a magazine and a few other items this ministry publishes to show you a more realistic look about The Way. You must know both sides to make a decision. OUR MINISTRY HAS NOTHING TO HIDE. YOU ARE FREE TO COME AND YOU ARE FREE TO GO. NO STRINGS ATTACHED...
...I am not trying to persuade you into what we know and believe to be truth of God's Word. Only to enlighten you as what we of The Way really stand for and that is : the inherrant accuracy of The Word of God.
...So just read the stuff I send you and then make a decesion before you believe those accusations set against us. Even a court of law will do this. It is a principle of the Word anyway..."
*****
HMMMmmmmm
There's something wrong with the world today
I don't know what it is
Something's wrong with our eyes
We're seeing things in a different way
And God knows it ain't His
It sure ain't no surprise
Ya!
Aerosmith
Rok On
Song
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WordWolf
Posted by Billy D 8/11/04, 9:05pm.
[WordWolf's comments in boldface as usual.]
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Dartanian3m
test
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waterbuffalo
Mike,
I really enjoyed reading this paragraph in your first post:
No, Dart, Jesus went down into the valley of human need and dared his adversaries to their faces so well, handled their debate challenges so well, that their only recourse was violence, and even that had to be under the cover of darkness. He went to the people who were hurting and put up with a lot of their bs, as well as their moaning and groaning and unbelief because he loved them. His mission was the impossible, and he made it possible for those with the REAL Christ in them to do it too.
What a beautiful description of true love, Mike. It reminds me of one of my favorite poems entitled "Love is Brown" written by Barry ? years ago.
Thanks for contributing that.
WB
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Galen
Oakspear:
" " . . . why are others who have NEVER heard of VPW OR his teachings coming to us and saying "you teach EXACTLY what I've believed for years?" "
" "Obviously because they are finding something really good." "
"Or maybe they're just suckers...
:P-->...not so obvious IMHO Galen!"
Or Our Heavenly Father has led them to a place wherein they can learn some part of what they need to know, or to do what they need to do.
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Mike
Much obliged, WB.
I got to give credit where credit is due.
I plagiarized it.
It's all from what we were taught.
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Dartanian3m
Mike don't slap yourself on the back too hard please...what was the context of expounding upon your meaning of true love...
the paragraph preceding it sets the stage...
YOU SAID "I’ve watched this whole JAL single-event, drive-by-posting with his emissary advance man careful testing the water temperature and tasting the food for him weeks ahead of time. I’ve seen how he is simply culling,via his ground rules, through all the moaners and groaners for few potential back-slappers who might still dig his style or Bible tid-bits. He can slap their backs and they can slap his, and simply ignore those with no such predisposition."
Then you said....
"No, Dart, Jesus went down into the valley of human need and dared his adversaries to their faces so well, handled their debate challenges so well, that their only recourse was violence, and even that had to be under the cover of darkness. He went to the people who were hurting and put up with a lot of their bs, as well as their moaning and groaning and unbelief because he loved them. His mission was the impossible, and he made it possible for those with the REAL Christ in them to do it too."
A beautiful selection of words eliquently put in a backdrop to attack the creditabilty of 2 men ..nothing more or nothing less...
yes those were fine words taken by themselves- and are likened to diamonds- BUT in the context that you set them they stand as a setting of "fine" LEAD...not words to inspire me but words to promote your condemnation ...HOW DARE YOU ASSUME TO KNOW THE HEARTS AND INTENTS OF JEFF AND JAL...
be honest with yourself Mike...I wish you no illwill...
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waterbuffalo
Mike said:
Hummmmmm--thought that sounded familiar.
Do you think vp would be proud of you?
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waterbuffalo
...sorry Mike, I couldn't resist
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Oakspear
We can trade "or's" back and forth forever, G; my point was that your statement, while possibly true, was not at all obvious.
I realize that you think very highly of VP's class (while thinking little of his attack-dog "Corps), but not all agree.
Have a good 'un
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