Jesus Christ never rolled in the quicksand with those who were struggling to get out ...he rather extended his hand (not grabbing hands) for those who desired deliverance..those who believed in him saw their opportunity to escape and took his hand
Please help me get this straight. If this is not what you meant, please correct me but this is what I heard you say:
*JAL represents Jesus Christ, the healthy one
*We are in the quicksand
*If we want to get out, we need to look to JAL for deliverance
That's what it sounded like you were saying. Are you SERIOUS???
OF COURSE that is what I am saying...I am dead serious...do you feel better now(excuse me while i go back to work and finish carving my graven image of JAL)
JAL addressed potential complainers and whiners but NEVER stated you were one nor did he dismiss all as such. YOU assumed that role for yourself.
I think that is unfair of you Dart.(what is unfair of me sky4it??? no one has called rascal a complainer or whiner...she only has labeled herself such) Peoples experiences have widely varied from The Way and Ex Way types. Some folks are genuinely wounded. It does not good to dismiss such folks complaints as excessive, it only serves the purpose of poisioning there hurting faith in God (there comes a time and point I beleive when complaints are excessive if there is no corresponding motion to move forward sky4it).
People need genuine love for healing, not bullets. (I AGREE)
I see it differently. These are not Rascals whining or complaints but hurts. (Rascal is fixated on JAL just posting once if it such a concern of hers why doesnt she act on it and call JAL and express her sentiments)(ie the difference ..stating your complaint and just going on and on about it with no motion to resolve it) She needs the ability to express them. Anything else IMO, is intimidation.
These people here have no book to write, no audience that hears them. JAL has that. Why shouldnt they have simple expression without it being labeled as complaints or whining?
(there comes a time and point I beleive when complaints are excessive if there is no corresponding motion to move forward sky4it).
But you dont know that she is not moving forward do you. Some people are profoundly hurt.
I dont know what Rascal's experience was. I certainly read a lot of MJ comments and I was very saddened by what he said. Is Rascal hurting JAL? He has books and an audience, what does she have?, let her go in peace with the Lord. She will do this.
MIKE an answer to your post with responses in parenthesis
Dart,
You wrote: “Jesus Christ never rolled in the quicksand with those who were struggling to get out …”
I think you’re only looking at a few aspects of Jesus’ pre-Calvary ministry. On the cross he “hung out” with 3 antagonistic criminals who “cast the same in his teeth.” Hours later Jesus not only rolled in the quicksand, he rolled in the grave with those who couldn’t even struggle any more. (and what of offering ourselves as living sacifices Mike or should we allow ourselves to be pulled into other peoples struggles so that we cant be there with our feet on solid ground)
I’d like to see John Lynn answer Oakspear’s question.
Then I’d like to see him tell us,if VPW should be so approving of his work, how he snubbed ,and continues to snub, Dr’s last teaching and his final instructions to master PFAL, both in 1985 and then again in 1998 when I brought it to his attention. I’d like to see him answer why he snubbed, and continues to snub, Dr’s 1979 instruction to all Advanced Class grads to master RHST which I’ve posted on numerous occasions here.(((HELLO MIKE!!!!!!! IS VPW GOD ALMIGHTY??????)(HE IS TO YOU...that in my opinion is a BIG problem) I’d like to ask him how many other instructions he ignored from Dr back in the good old days when he was supposed to be an assistant of Dr’s in Dr’s ministry to us. Did he use Dr’s extreme popularity among many grads back then to develop his own following, just as he appealed to the very few mild admirer’s of vpw left here on this board? (You really have issues with people who don't obey the word of VPW ....don't you MIKE)
I don’t think he (JAL) nor any of the other derelict top leadership have ever developed the spiritual balls to really face a single adversary who was amply equipped with word skills, let alone a whole community of them like here. Most top leadership left the debate-rich witnessing field to us lower peons in the early 70’s, and either lost or never developed the ability to sustain a friendly debate. For decades all their disagreements with grad underlings ended very early with psychological word-trickery or body language like grimacing, growling, or clenched fists.(They face the adversary every day of their lives Mike and they fight to make a difference...what about you...can you say the same...you be the judge)
Leader types like him are too afraid to publicly debate lest this great weakness of theirs be exposed, leaving them with potentially less gainful employment. (DEBATE? is that why JAL and others have come here??? to debate....maybe you come here for such but don't expect others to be at your level...)
I’ve watched this whole JAL single-event, drive-by-posting with his emissary advance man careful testing the water temperature and tasting the food for him weeks ahead of time. I’ve seen how he is simply culling,via his ground rules, through all the moaners and groaners for few potential back-slappers who might still dig his style or Bible tid-bits. He can slap their backs and they can slap his, and simply ignore those with no such predisposition.
No, Dart, Jesus went down into the valley of human need and dared his adversaries to their faces so well, handled their debate challenges so well, that their only recourse was violence, and even that had to be under the cover of darkness. He went to the people who were hurting and put up with a lot of their bs, as well as their moaning and groaning and unbelief because he loved them. His mission was the impossible, and he made it possible for those with the REAL Christ in them to do it too. (the real Christ Mike???? Its people who use the Word to prove their point that really offend me Mike...consider me offended Mike...a little more heart and a little less scriptural reference would serve us all better)(hearts are not healed by debate they are healed by understanding, gentleness, forgiveness, and compassion, and the knowledge that there is only ONE enemy and JAL isnt him)
I think you’re only looking at a few aspects of Jesus’ pre-Calvary ministry. On the cross he “hung out” with 3 antagonistic criminals
I have 15 credits of Biblical greek, i disagree with the 4 thieves thing.
Neither was this topic ever ever relavant to anything to mankind. Would we be anymore saved if he had been crucified with 8 thieves or 10? Then why bring it up. If you want to start debating theology I suppose I could. but there is no point in adressing issues that have not relavance toward salvation or Godliness. Dont you think?
A) John Lynn HIMSELF said....that Dr.Wierwille would be very proud....not me...JOHN in the letter that Jeff posted.....
B) Whether I am born again or not...or John Lynn is or not is of no present concern....we have either been taught right or not....we`ll either be there or not.......IF WE BOTH ARRIVE....shoot I am sure that the heavenlies will be big enough to suit the both of us....no problems there....
C) You read me quite wrong Dart, I am neither hurt...nor intending to be sarcastic....my points of import might strike you as such though...thus allowing you to negate their importance.
D) HE dismissed US as unimportant when he stated that he had no intentions of reading or responding to out posts...THAT is the ultimate ....screw you ...you are not important enough for me to listen to, much less take the time to thoughtfully consider or respond to....no problem...like I said....but don`t tell me you love or want to help me...
E) Nope John did NOT chose to meet me in my medium....he wrote ONE post ....telling US how he wouldn`t read or respond to what WE said....no problem...again...but don`t think you fool anybody ionto believeing that you give a damn...
As far as showing YOU love Dart...I never came IN here claiming to *love* you nor representing myself as someone who gives a damn about you one way or another......However, ... when you WERE in chat, I`d like to remind you tha in SPITE of your misgivings..and much to your suprise....you were welcomed and treated well......as far as I know, I have never misrepresented or misquoted you....so either pony up with specifics or ...back off.
Actually, I have nothing against John ....nope....just have no patience with pseudo love and pretended caring...
Assuage...computer left off an s......it`s a real word, and apropriate....honest! *To allay..mitigate....lessen...appease...pacify*
Lol...an awarness sky4it? Some folks around here call that a finely tuned bull sh-tometer ....
Thanks for your concern...
Dart, as far as expressing my sentiments about John`s cavaliere attitude...I thought that was precisely what I was doing here....but seeing as they are simply unimportant enough to read or respond to....lol...I am not concerned with what his response would be to worthless lil ole me...WERE I to call him on his terms.
Please stop turning my posts into a *rascal hates john* thread....my opinion is about a simple lack of respect PERIOD.
Coming from you, to me, your approval of my post means a lot.
I realize this approval does NOT extend to even close to all the other points I make here, so this endorsement rings all the louder to me. I pray we can see more together in the future, the not-too-distant future. :)-->
You wrote: “(and what of offering ourselves as living sacifices Mike or should we allow ourselves to be pulled into other peoples struggles so that we cant be there with our feet on solid ground)”
No, we should NOT allow ourselves to enter any battles in which we are not prepared to win.
I was just pointing out that JAL is not prepared, willing, or able to meet people on the terms of general public discourse. He must be the only one with the microphone or he can’t perform. He is partially responsible for the development of some TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) that hurt many. If he now has seen the TRUE light he should be prepared to mingle with those who are struggling without loosing his footing.
For him to wave a welcome from a safe distance to someone stuck and sinking in quicksand, and then portray himself as a rescuer of those who can make it to dry land on their own, is the height of arrogant stupidity. I just hate to see those of meeker stupidity fall for that crap. I'd like to see them all come back to PFAL and smarten up. I know how stupid I was from my drifting away.
***
You wrote: “HELLO MIKE!!!!!!! IS VPW GOD ALMIGHTY??????) (HE IS TO YOU...that in my opinion is a BIG problem)
Please allow me to steal a great line from someone who was able to see through the subterfuge you just threw at me: excuse me while I go back to work and finish carving my graven image of VPW.
Hey! What the…. E-gads man! It was YOU who penned that very line!
How’s come you can’t apply the wisdom you toss out to others to your own vapid objections to me? THAT in my opinion is a BIG problem. Oops, there I go again! :D-->
***
You wrote: “ (You really have issues with people who don't obey the word of VPW ....don't you MIKE)”
The word of VPW is worthless. But when and where he wrote and spoke God’s Word accurately then those words are as much God as God is God. The same holds when you speak God’s Word: you stand with all the authority of God Almighty. Don’t you remember how we were taught this in RHST? When Peter stood before Cornelius’ household he spoke as if he were God Himself.
***
You wrote: “(They face the adversary every day of their lives Mike and they fight to make a difference...what about you...can you say the same...you be the judge)”
They face adversaries of their own choosing, but not the ones that afflict many people here on this board. Over 3400 times I have faced these much more difficult adversaries, these very perplexing and hurtful conundrums, that resulted partially from the disobedience of top leaders like JAL.
Let’s see, 3400 to 1, you be the judge.
***
You wrote: “(DEBATE? is that why JAL and others have come here??? to debate....maybe you come here for such but don't expect others to be at your level...)”
If people like JAL (who I also see as over-gifted genetically and earth shaking as he walks) had obeyed and mastered the material years ago he’d be at a level far higher than the one I’ve enjoyed from six measly years of serious PFAL study. I was SURELY not at this level six years ago. I not only expect this level of skill from all the top leaders, I absolutely DEMAND it of them! Otherwise I trumpingly say to them “You’re FIRED!”
***
You wrote: “(the real Christ Mike???? Its people who use the Word to prove their point that really offend me Mike...consider me offended Mike...a little more heart and a little less scriptural reference would serve us all better)(hearts are not healed by debate they are healed by understanding, gentleness, forgiveness, and compassion, and the knowledge that there is only ONE enemy and JAL isnt him)”
No, JAL is not the enemy, but as long as he uses that genetic and taught charisma to maintain and build a personal following, and he leads people farther and farther from the accuracy God taught Dr and Dr put in writing, then he's HELPING that enemy. He don’t need no gentleness, just a swift kick in the pants as he is relieved of all his leadership privileges.
I agree with your assesment of the great need for gentleness toward those who were hurt, but toward the derelict leaders to whom there was given double honor, there now should be given double condemnation. You can find the verses yourself. In other words, he has a millstone around his neck, and you aren’t going to be able to get it off.
***
The REAL Christ within is not that wonderful and needed gift of pneuma hagion. That gift is Christ in you the HOPE of glory, but it’s only a token of the REAL Christ to come, that Christ formed within the soul, the mind, the heart of a real man.
That REAL Christ within is not the HOPE of glory; it’s the GLORY!
Glory was defined for us on page 92 of WWAY as “to ‘speak authoritatively’ of those things of which he has true knowledge.”
It’s this glory and the REAL Christ within that all those top leaders had a golden opportunity to realize, but they walked away from the revelation we were given (PFAL) and back into the cesspools of tradition (KJV research and the like).
***
One last thing Dart, watch out how strongly you allow yourself to be offended by me. I might be able to someday sic shazdancer on you. ;)-->
See the thing is....I don`t expect or demand anything more from John than what he is willing to give...really....I personally enjoyed and benefited from his teachings more than any other teacher in twi...seriously.
I have no doubt that he has found his *nitch* that he is comfortable and probably is a tremendous blessing to those within his sphere of influince....could even truly be doing the work of God....who knows or is any position to judge? Certainly not me....
My initial observation was simply that IF you truly cared about an individual....if you are going to claim this.....then it behooves you to observe the basic tenets of courtesy and invest the time..the patience, have the respect to listen to what one has to say....to carefully consider what they have to say and then respond....
THAT is what you do when you honestly care...why come in here and pretend that you care....when you are unwilling to observe the basics of common courtesy?
Whether John Lynn ever bothered to respond is of no consequence to me....that he arrogantly states that he has no intentions of reading or responding to our thoughts or concernes is a slap in the face....sorry, that is my perception.
John Lynn was fired from TWI because he signed (along with others) a document which some people have come to know as the "37-page letter". I've never had a copy of my own, but my twig coordinator (at the time) allowed me to read his copy.
The letter was a call for the trustees of TWI to engage their followers in open discussion in a public forum regarding issues of concern.
In the late-'80s and early-'90s, Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser were very open with the followers of CES, and receptive to their input. As the body of material published by CES grew, the stances adopted by the leaders of CES ossified, and they began to insulate themselves from any communication with their followers that didn't follow the official party line.
Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser have now taken the same position that they objected to when it was the TWI BOT's that was in question.
They only talk publicly with those who agree. In private, where they can't be held accountable, they will tell you what they think you want to hear. But they won't change anything.
Wierwille built a religious empire. Lynn believes Wierwille would be proud of what CES is doing. To the extent that CES replicates TWI, even if the replication is unconscious, CES is building a religious empire. No more, and no less.
Professing themselves to be wise, they have become fools.
John Lynn was fired from TWI because he signed (along with others) a document which some people have come to know as the "37-page letter". I've never had a copy of my own, but my twig coordinator (at the time) allowed me to read his copy.
The letter was a call for the trustees of TWI to engage their followers in open discussion in a public forum regarding issues of concern.
In the late-'80s and early-'90s, Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser were very open with the followers of CES, and receptive to their input. As the body of material published by CES grew, the stances adopted by the leaders of CES ossified, and they began to insulate themselves from any communication with their followers that didn't follow the official party line.
Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser have now taken the same position that they objected to when it was the TWI BOT's that was in question.
They only talk publicly with those who agree. In private, where they can't be held accountable, they will tell you what they think you want to hear. But they won't change anything.
Wierwille built a religious empire. Lynn believes Wierwille would be proud of what CES is doing. To the extent that CES replicates TWI, even if the replication is unconscious, CES is building a religious empire. No more, and no less.
quote:Lynn believes Wierwille would be proud of what CES is doing.
Now that certainly would be what Lynn believes of himself (and CES) but the stark reality is it is highly doubtful Dr. VPW would ever be proud of anything CES is doing or has done - especially when Lynn (and CES) have thrown out much of the biblical research of PFAL. In this particular situation I heartily concur with Mike. As Mike aptly put it ...
quote:he [JAL] snubbed and continues to snub Dr’s last teaching and his final instructions to master PFAL, both in 1985 and then again in 1998 when I brought it to his attention. I’d like to see him answer why he snubbed and continues to snub Dr’s 1979 instruction to all Advanced Class grads to master RHST which I’ve posted on numerous occasions here.
And we are all supposed to believe VPW would be proud of the work of JAL and CES - merely from the lips of JAL himself? Sounds more like the mosquitos are alive and well and buzzing around the CES-pool to me. It is doubtful CES will ever become a religious empire though - unless they only care about attracting parasites to gather with them around the stagnant pools and decaying fruit of their "religious tradition". Just how many do you think are out there?
See the thing is....I don`t expect or demand anything more from John than what he is willing to give...really....I personally enjoyed and benefited from his teachings more than any other teacher in twi...seriously.
I have no doubt that he has found his *nitch* that he is comfortable and probably is a tremendous blessing to those within his sphere of influince....could even truly be doing the work of God....who knows or is any position to judge? Certainly not me....
I agree. The fact that he even registered here surprised me. He is like all others here, a person with a name (a famous name, but a name none the less). And will post as we all do -- as we wish to do so.
quote:John Lynn was fired from TWI because he signed (along with others) a document which some people have come to know as the "37-page letter". I've never had a copy of my own, but my twig coordinator (at the time) allowed me to read his copy.
The letter was a call for the trustees of TWI to engage their followers in open discussion in a public forum regarding issues of concern.
Steve Lortz,
dmiller was kind enough to send this to me recently. I read through it, and nowhere does it say anything about a call for the trustees to engage their followers in an open discussion.
The paper wreeks of spiritual halitosis. Syrupy spiritual self serving gobbledygook. After reading it, I'm glad the Trustees fired their butts. Here's a quote from page 35:
quote:As clearly as we can determine from God's Word, the time has come to biblically "turn away." This does not mean that we, John, Pat and Tom, are resigning from our current positions. We, Ralph and Robert, still feel that for us resignation from our Corps assignment was our only biblical alternative at that time.
We will, however, continue to "do good". We are committed to continue ministering God's Word to His people. We will continue also to pray for miracles of deliverance in the lives of the Trustees. If and when they change, and the fruit is evident, we would be most blessed to again stand shoulder to shoulder with them for our God.
The pages immediately preceding this one talk about "mark and avoid." I guess what they did was, marked and avoided the Trustees! Also looks like John Pat and Tom expected to keep their positions, all the while "turning away" from the Trustees! hahahah
oldiesman - Thanks for posting what you did. The impression I took away from the document was that the BOT's failure to communicate was one of the signers' big problems. That may have come from the discussions going on around the document at the time I got to read it. I think it would be a service if you could post the whole thing in the WayDale/Misc. Documents section. Then I could refresh my memory of the whole thing.
At early CES meetings, a majority of the time was spent with EVERYONE freely discussing whatever issues they felt were important. It was a lot like Greasespot, only face-to-face. Gradually, the meetings became more and more structured with less and less time for anyone except the "leaders" or their hand-picked presenters to speak. I know. I was one of their hand-picked presenters.
Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser did make a big deal about the Trustees inaccessibility. Now they practice the same organizational tactic.
I don't know agout MG, but I'd concur with you on JAL's aloofness toward those who disagree with his stands.
However, I would credit JS with making himself available to me by phone. At least three times in the past 5 years he has given me a full hour in his schedule for some intense discussion and debate. We've exchanged a few long e-mails as well.
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Dartanian3m
Yes Dont fence me in
Dartanian3m said to Rascal:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus Christ never rolled in the quicksand with those who were struggling to get out ...he rather extended his hand (not grabbing hands) for those who desired deliverance..those who believed in him saw their opportunity to escape and took his hand
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please help me get this straight. If this is not what you meant, please correct me but this is what I heard you say:
*JAL represents Jesus Christ, the healthy one
*We are in the quicksand
*If we want to get out, we need to look to JAL for deliverance
That's what it sounded like you were saying. Are you SERIOUS???
OF COURSE that is what I am saying...I am dead serious...do you feel better now(excuse me while i go back to work and finish carving my graven image of JAL)
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sky4it
Rascal:
dart has numerous posts but he did not respond to mine.
Please read my comments to you above his last post.... thanks and keep your chin up.
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Dartanian3m
.
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shazdancer
Mike,
I gotta say this to you...
...great post.
Shaz
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sky4it
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Dartanian3m
sky4it ...u stated...
Dart: Your comment about Rascal:
JAL addressed potential complainers and whiners but NEVER stated you were one nor did he dismiss all as such. YOU assumed that role for yourself.
I think that is unfair of you Dart.(what is unfair of me sky4it??? no one has called rascal a complainer or whiner...she only has labeled herself such) Peoples experiences have widely varied from The Way and Ex Way types. Some folks are genuinely wounded. It does not good to dismiss such folks complaints as excessive, it only serves the purpose of poisioning there hurting faith in God (there comes a time and point I beleive when complaints are excessive if there is no corresponding motion to move forward sky4it).
People need genuine love for healing, not bullets. (I AGREE)
I see it differently. These are not Rascals whining or complaints but hurts. (Rascal is fixated on JAL just posting once if it such a concern of hers why doesnt she act on it and call JAL and express her sentiments)(ie the difference ..stating your complaint and just going on and on about it with no motion to resolve it) She needs the ability to express them. Anything else IMO, is intimidation.
These people here have no book to write, no audience that hears them. JAL has that. Why shouldnt they have simple expression without it being labeled as complaints or whining?
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sky4it
Dart:
Your comment:
(there comes a time and point I beleive when complaints are excessive if there is no corresponding motion to move forward sky4it).
But you dont know that she is not moving forward do you. Some people are profoundly hurt.
I dont know what Rascal's experience was. I certainly read a lot of MJ comments and I was very saddened by what he said. Is Rascal hurting JAL? He has books and an audience, what does she have?, let her go in peace with the Lord. She will do this.
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Dartanian3m
MIKE an answer to your post with responses in parenthesis
Dart,
You wrote: “Jesus Christ never rolled in the quicksand with those who were struggling to get out …”
I think you’re only looking at a few aspects of Jesus’ pre-Calvary ministry. On the cross he “hung out” with 3 antagonistic criminals who “cast the same in his teeth.” Hours later Jesus not only rolled in the quicksand, he rolled in the grave with those who couldn’t even struggle any more. (and what of offering ourselves as living sacifices Mike or should we allow ourselves to be pulled into other peoples struggles so that we cant be there with our feet on solid ground)
I’d like to see John Lynn answer Oakspear’s question.
Then I’d like to see him tell us,if VPW should be so approving of his work, how he snubbed ,and continues to snub, Dr’s last teaching and his final instructions to master PFAL, both in 1985 and then again in 1998 when I brought it to his attention. I’d like to see him answer why he snubbed, and continues to snub, Dr’s 1979 instruction to all Advanced Class grads to master RHST which I’ve posted on numerous occasions here.(((HELLO MIKE!!!!!!! IS VPW GOD ALMIGHTY??????)(HE IS TO YOU...that in my opinion is a BIG problem) I’d like to ask him how many other instructions he ignored from Dr back in the good old days when he was supposed to be an assistant of Dr’s in Dr’s ministry to us. Did he use Dr’s extreme popularity among many grads back then to develop his own following, just as he appealed to the very few mild admirer’s of vpw left here on this board? (You really have issues with people who don't obey the word of VPW ....don't you MIKE)
I don’t think he (JAL) nor any of the other derelict top leadership have ever developed the spiritual balls to really face a single adversary who was amply equipped with word skills, let alone a whole community of them like here. Most top leadership left the debate-rich witnessing field to us lower peons in the early 70’s, and either lost or never developed the ability to sustain a friendly debate. For decades all their disagreements with grad underlings ended very early with psychological word-trickery or body language like grimacing, growling, or clenched fists.(They face the adversary every day of their lives Mike and they fight to make a difference...what about you...can you say the same...you be the judge)
Leader types like him are too afraid to publicly debate lest this great weakness of theirs be exposed, leaving them with potentially less gainful employment. (DEBATE? is that why JAL and others have come here??? to debate....maybe you come here for such but don't expect others to be at your level...)
I’ve watched this whole JAL single-event, drive-by-posting with his emissary advance man careful testing the water temperature and tasting the food for him weeks ahead of time. I’ve seen how he is simply culling,via his ground rules, through all the moaners and groaners for few potential back-slappers who might still dig his style or Bible tid-bits. He can slap their backs and they can slap his, and simply ignore those with no such predisposition.
No, Dart, Jesus went down into the valley of human need and dared his adversaries to their faces so well, handled their debate challenges so well, that their only recourse was violence, and even that had to be under the cover of darkness. He went to the people who were hurting and put up with a lot of their bs, as well as their moaning and groaning and unbelief because he loved them. His mission was the impossible, and he made it possible for those with the REAL Christ in them to do it too. (the real Christ Mike???? Its people who use the Word to prove their point that really offend me Mike...consider me offended Mike...a little more heart and a little less scriptural reference would serve us all better)(hearts are not healed by debate they are healed by understanding, gentleness, forgiveness, and compassion, and the knowledge that there is only ONE enemy and JAL isnt him)
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sky4it
Dart:
your comment:
I think you’re only looking at a few aspects of Jesus’ pre-Calvary ministry. On the cross he “hung out” with 3 antagonistic criminals
I have 15 credits of Biblical greek, i disagree with the 4 thieves thing.
Neither was this topic ever ever relavant to anything to mankind. Would we be anymore saved if he had been crucified with 8 thieves or 10? Then why bring it up. If you want to start debating theology I suppose I could. but there is no point in adressing issues that have not relavance toward salvation or Godliness. Dont you think?
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rascal
A) John Lynn HIMSELF said....that Dr.Wierwille would be very proud....not me...JOHN in the letter that Jeff posted.....
B) Whether I am born again or not...or John Lynn is or not is of no present concern....we have either been taught right or not....we`ll either be there or not.......IF WE BOTH ARRIVE....shoot I am sure that the heavenlies will be big enough to suit the both of us....no problems there....
C) You read me quite wrong Dart, I am neither hurt...nor intending to be sarcastic....my points of import might strike you as such though...thus allowing you to negate their importance.
D) HE dismissed US as unimportant when he stated that he had no intentions of reading or responding to out posts...THAT is the ultimate ....screw you ...you are not important enough for me to listen to, much less take the time to thoughtfully consider or respond to....no problem...like I said....but don`t tell me you love or want to help me...
E) Nope John did NOT chose to meet me in my medium....he wrote ONE post ....telling US how he wouldn`t read or respond to what WE said....no problem...again...but don`t think you fool anybody ionto believeing that you give a damn...
As far as showing YOU love Dart...I never came IN here claiming to *love* you nor representing myself as someone who gives a damn about you one way or another......However, ... when you WERE in chat, I`d like to remind you tha in SPITE of your misgivings..and much to your suprise....you were welcomed and treated well......as far as I know, I have never misrepresented or misquoted you....so either pony up with specifics or ...back off.
Actually, I have nothing against John ....nope....just have no patience with pseudo love and pretended caring...
Assuage...computer left off an s......it`s a real word, and apropriate....honest! *To allay..mitigate....lessen...appease...pacify*
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rascal
Lol...an awarness sky4it? Some folks around here call that a finely tuned bull sh-tometer ....
Thanks for your concern...
Dart, as far as expressing my sentiments about John`s cavaliere attitude...I thought that was precisely what I was doing here....but seeing as they are simply unimportant enough to read or respond to....lol...I am not concerned with what his response would be to worthless lil ole me...WERE I to call him on his terms.
Please stop turning my posts into a *rascal hates john* thread....my opinion is about a simple lack of respect PERIOD.
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Mike
shazdancer,
Thank you.
Coming from you, to me, your approval of my post means a lot.
I realize this approval does NOT extend to even close to all the other points I make here, so this endorsement rings all the louder to me. I pray we can see more together in the future, the not-too-distant future.
:)-->
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Mike
Dartanian3m,
You wrote: “(and what of offering ourselves as living sacifices Mike or should we allow ourselves to be pulled into other peoples struggles so that we cant be there with our feet on solid ground)”
No, we should NOT allow ourselves to enter any battles in which we are not prepared to win.
I was just pointing out that JAL is not prepared, willing, or able to meet people on the terms of general public discourse. He must be the only one with the microphone or he can’t perform. He is partially responsible for the development of some TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions) that hurt many. If he now has seen the TRUE light he should be prepared to mingle with those who are struggling without loosing his footing.
For him to wave a welcome from a safe distance to someone stuck and sinking in quicksand, and then portray himself as a rescuer of those who can make it to dry land on their own, is the height of arrogant stupidity. I just hate to see those of meeker stupidity fall for that crap. I'd like to see them all come back to PFAL and smarten up. I know how stupid I was from my drifting away.
***
You wrote: “HELLO MIKE!!!!!!! IS VPW GOD ALMIGHTY??????) (HE IS TO YOU...that in my opinion is a BIG problem)
Please allow me to steal a great line from someone who was able to see through the subterfuge you just threw at me: excuse me while I go back to work and finish carving my graven image of VPW.
Hey! What the….
E-gads man! It was YOU who penned that very line!
How’s come you can’t apply the wisdom you toss out to others to your own vapid objections to me? THAT in my opinion is a BIG problem. Oops, there I go again!
:D-->
***
You wrote: “ (You really have issues with people who don't obey the word of VPW ....don't you MIKE)”
The word of VPW is worthless. But when and where he wrote and spoke God’s Word accurately then those words are as much God as God is God. The same holds when you speak God’s Word: you stand with all the authority of God Almighty. Don’t you remember how we were taught this in RHST? When Peter stood before Cornelius’ household he spoke as if he were God Himself.
***
You wrote: “(They face the adversary every day of their lives Mike and they fight to make a difference...what about you...can you say the same...you be the judge)”
They face adversaries of their own choosing, but not the ones that afflict many people here on this board. Over 3400 times I have faced these much more difficult adversaries, these very perplexing and hurtful conundrums, that resulted partially from the disobedience of top leaders like JAL.
Let’s see, 3400 to 1, you be the judge.
***
You wrote: “(DEBATE? is that why JAL and others have come here??? to debate....maybe you come here for such but don't expect others to be at your level...)”
If people like JAL (who I also see as over-gifted genetically and earth shaking as he walks) had obeyed and mastered the material years ago he’d be at a level far higher than the one I’ve enjoyed from six measly years of serious PFAL study. I was SURELY not at this level six years ago. I not only expect this level of skill from all the top leaders, I absolutely DEMAND it of them! Otherwise I trumpingly say to them “You’re FIRED!”
***
You wrote: “(the real Christ Mike???? Its people who use the Word to prove their point that really offend me Mike...consider me offended Mike...a little more heart and a little less scriptural reference would serve us all better)(hearts are not healed by debate they are healed by understanding, gentleness, forgiveness, and compassion, and the knowledge that there is only ONE enemy and JAL isnt him)”
No, JAL is not the enemy, but as long as he uses that genetic and taught charisma to maintain and build a personal following, and he leads people farther and farther from the accuracy God taught Dr and Dr put in writing, then he's HELPING that enemy. He don’t need no gentleness, just a swift kick in the pants as he is relieved of all his leadership privileges.
I agree with your assesment of the great need for gentleness toward those who were hurt, but toward the derelict leaders to whom there was given double honor, there now should be given double condemnation. You can find the verses yourself. In other words, he has a millstone around his neck, and you aren’t going to be able to get it off.
***
The REAL Christ within is not that wonderful and needed gift of pneuma hagion. That gift is Christ in you the HOPE of glory, but it’s only a token of the REAL Christ to come, that Christ formed within the soul, the mind, the heart of a real man.
That REAL Christ within is not the HOPE of glory; it’s the GLORY!
Glory was defined for us on page 92 of WWAY as “to ‘speak authoritatively’ of those things of which he has true knowledge.”
It’s this glory and the REAL Christ within that all those top leaders had a golden opportunity to realize, but they walked away from the revelation we were given (PFAL) and back into the cesspools of tradition (KJV research and the like).
***
One last thing Dart, watch out how strongly you allow yourself to be offended by me. I might be able to someday sic shazdancer on you.
;)-->
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rascal
See the thing is....I don`t expect or demand anything more from John than what he is willing to give...really....I personally enjoyed and benefited from his teachings more than any other teacher in twi...seriously.
I have no doubt that he has found his *nitch* that he is comfortable and probably is a tremendous blessing to those within his sphere of influince....could even truly be doing the work of God....who knows or is any position to judge? Certainly not me....
My initial observation was simply that IF you truly cared about an individual....if you are going to claim this.....then it behooves you to observe the basic tenets of courtesy and invest the time..the patience, have the respect to listen to what one has to say....to carefully consider what they have to say and then respond....
THAT is what you do when you honestly care...why come in here and pretend that you care....when you are unwilling to observe the basics of common courtesy?
Whether John Lynn ever bothered to respond is of no consequence to me....that he arrogantly states that he has no intentions of reading or responding to our thoughts or concernes is a slap in the face....sorry, that is my perception.
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Steve Lortz
John Lynn was fired from TWI because he signed (along with others) a document which some people have come to know as the "37-page letter". I've never had a copy of my own, but my twig coordinator (at the time) allowed me to read his copy.
The letter was a call for the trustees of TWI to engage their followers in open discussion in a public forum regarding issues of concern.
In the late-'80s and early-'90s, Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser were very open with the followers of CES, and receptive to their input. As the body of material published by CES grew, the stances adopted by the leaders of CES ossified, and they began to insulate themselves from any communication with their followers that didn't follow the official party line.
Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser have now taken the same position that they objected to when it was the TWI BOT's that was in question.
They only talk publicly with those who agree. In private, where they can't be held accountable, they will tell you what they think you want to hear. But they won't change anything.
Wierwille built a religious empire. Lynn believes Wierwille would be proud of what CES is doing. To the extent that CES replicates TWI, even if the replication is unconscious, CES is building a religious empire. No more, and no less.
Professing themselves to be wise, they have become fools.
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
I missed my chance to be the first one to say
it.......
John Lynn, if you're reading this at any point, I'd like to
add something at this point.
On this thread, Mike and you have so far matched each other
on substance, and he's currently leading in the
"be a better man" department.
If you were aware of my previous communications with him,
this would concern you.
(I call them like I see them.)
In fact, I think he's got a reasonable shot at outperforming
you on this thread.
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WordWolf
Just felt that was worth repeating, dude.
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What The Hay
Now that certainly would be what Lynn believes of himself (and CES) but the stark reality is it is highly doubtful Dr. VPW would ever be proud of anything CES is doing or has done - especially when Lynn (and CES) have thrown out much of the biblical research of PFAL. In this particular situation I heartily concur with Mike. As Mike aptly put it ...
And we are all supposed to believe VPW would be proud of the work of JAL and CES - merely from the lips of JAL himself? Sounds more like the mosquitos are alive and well and buzzing around the CES-pool to me. It is doubtful CES will ever become a religious empire though - unless they only care about attracting parasites to gather with them around the stagnant pools and decaying fruit of their "religious tradition". Just how many do you think are out there?
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wwjesuslaughat
What the Hay:
I don't know the numbers, but I'd say there's one born every minute.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Well, well Laugh,
That one thrilled quite a guffaw outa me
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dmiller
I agree. The fact that he even registered here surprised me. He is like all others here, a person with a name (a famous name, but a name none the less). And will post as we all do -- as we wish to do so.
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oldiesman
dmiller was kind enough to send this to me recently. I read through it, and nowhere does it say anything about a call for the trustees to engage their followers in an open discussion.
The paper wreeks of spiritual halitosis. Syrupy spiritual self serving gobbledygook. After reading it, I'm glad the Trustees fired their butts. Here's a quote from page 35:
The pages immediately preceding this one talk about "mark and avoid." I guess what they did was, marked and avoided the Trustees! Also looks like John Pat and Tom expected to keep their positions, all the while "turning away" from the Trustees! hahahahNo wonder why their butts were fired.
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Steve Lortz
oldiesman - Thanks for posting what you did. The impression I took away from the document was that the BOT's failure to communicate was one of the signers' big problems. That may have come from the discussions going on around the document at the time I got to read it. I think it would be a service if you could post the whole thing in the WayDale/Misc. Documents section. Then I could refresh my memory of the whole thing.
At early CES meetings, a majority of the time was spent with EVERYONE freely discussing whatever issues they felt were important. It was a lot like Greasespot, only face-to-face. Gradually, the meetings became more and more structured with less and less time for anyone except the "leaders" or their hand-picked presenters to speak. I know. I was one of their hand-picked presenters.
Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser did make a big deal about the Trustees inaccessibility. Now they practice the same organizational tactic.
Love,
Steve
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Mike
Steve Lortz,
I don't know agout MG, but I'd concur with you on JAL's aloofness toward those who disagree with his stands.
However, I would credit JS with making himself available to me by phone. At least three times in the past 5 years he has given me a full hour in his schedule for some intense discussion and debate. We've exchanged a few long e-mails as well.
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