"If I were John Lynn, I would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was a mistake to post here at Greasepot. I would know that there is absolutely nothing I could ever say that could justify my existence or my work in the eyes of most posters. I would realize what an incredible waste of time it would be to even try."
True.
I strongly disagree. If Lynn and others like him would for once drop MOG persona and the 'i'm too busy to mess with bitter people' attitude and actually take on the hard questions in an open forum, that a lot of good would come of it. It is too bad that Lynn won't come here and actually answer the hard qestions and actually enter into debate with poster's that have legitimate questions and concerns. What is he afraid of? This place isn't so tough, and it seems to me that the vast majority have more respect for folks (even former top leaders) that are forthright and honest about their roles in TWI and their currrent ministries, than those who ignore this place, or tuck tail and run, or who ain't got time to mess with us "bitter and angry" folks at GS.
Since returning stateside, we have spoken with a number of friends and it has amazed me that even though most do not fellowship together anymore, their response regarding GS is exactly what you have said above.
Too many angry bitter people.
The lame and phony "bitter and angry" charge once again. Yep there are one one or two folks here that come off as "bitter and angry", but the vast majortity here are nothing close to that. The folks that make that charge are many times VPW/PFAL sycophants that cannot stand to hear the facts about VPW or any disagreement with their beloved PFAL so they ar quick to falsely charge/accuse folks of being "angry and bitter".
I would have to imagine that a few [including JEFF] have been urging JAL to get envolved with GS, and that he eventually was convinced that there might be some small usefullness and agreed to though on a limited basis. After the initial responses he got, I would very much doubt whether he will return. I dont blame him.
If you actually look at the intial responses, there were a lot of "welcomes", and "thank yous" mixed in with with some tough and not so tough questions. If you look at the first 20 or so posts (initial response) there are just as many positive or neutral responses as negative ones. I think is is unreasonalable to expect a red carpet welcome by everyone here. In fact, the inital response was much better than I expected. I personally have no set opinion of JAL or CES but he certainly will not gain any respect from me if he does not return and take on some of the tougher questions.
Mr. Lynn, come back and take on some of the tough stuff and show the "bitter and angry" folks here what you are really made of. You may not get a whole lot of converts, but I suspect that a quite a bit of good could come of it, to you personally, to CES, and to many of the folks here at GS.
I really didnt like (Galen's A CES member?) remarks to me. (It reminds me of the same tactics of other groups, you = devil me = saint) Accusing me of projecting anger fear and hatred. Certainly I will admit I could have used a few less adjectives, but that also makes you look less concerned about the topic than you really are. So then what happens? You get ignored.
Why is it Raf, that when you disagree in principle with the obvious, that you get accused of degrading remarks (anger fear and hatred) in bountiful excess far greater than what you intended?
Why does the paranoia (for lack of a better word) run so deep?
Sky,
I apologize for not answering sooner. I didn't see your post. I'm trying to figure out why it was directed at me, but I'll do my best to answer. Please understand, though, that I had no intention whatsoever of getting involved in any dialogue taking place between you and Galen.
I think Galen's a sincere guy. He and I disagree often, but always respectfully.
Why does the paranoia run so deep? hmm. Good question. I wonder if paranoia is the right word. I wonder if it isn't just the freedom to speak our minds and the boldness to stand up for what we believe. When folks disagree, that boldness can easily be mistaken for a confrontational attitude (or itching for a fight).
Sometimes I find I need to remind myself (or have friends remind me) that in the most heated of flame wars, I'm dealing with a human being. and that we are equally prone to misunderstanding each other.
Anyway, I don't know if that answers your question.
Gallen if he was a true minister of God it would be his resposibilty to come and minister. Isn't there a verse or two or three saying that he would in fact have the ministry of reconciliation. Re to brig back isn't that what it means.
His whole little letter was nothing but a lame ad for money, power.
And he said he was shameless at doing it. Did you ever hear about the black heart. Reprobate.
That letter was at the hight of Idoltry.
Why do I need him? Minister your joking?
To say oh it's just a few charater flaws and put it on the devil. What a joke. The only devil he sees is the one in his life.
Bitter far from it. Wiser I would say. When someone brings a bucket of sheet and calls it cream, I just happen to know what each taste like.
Yes your pfal bring that cast system I have Gods favor you don't. Why? If I'm born agin why are you better. Because of your sick beliefs. You know what you can do with your beliefs.
I pray God opens your eyes and Johns also. Yall need it. To rid your lives of the wicked one and wicked ways.
I have seen more true eye opening here than ever in twi. Who was that man behind the curtain?
I will never aging be incased by a broken cistern. Only the true God can delievr you. Look down upon us all you want and what I say. Isn't there a verse about love (faith). yea yea Galen and your pal you can do it all if it ain't Gods love it will be burned and counted for nothing.
Why do you have so much fear in your heart? Why so much judging? Who made you the critic? Who gave you the job? Whats up with that. Love you will pray for you.
And how about the lines oh I'm so busy. Was that another joke. Hey John it's 2004 I chanllege you to keep up with half what i do in one day they will drag your arce to the ER. You don't think that any of us are busy. Oh I know you are doing the work of the LORD. You haven't read it's not by works. What makes my work less important than yours? Hu Galen? Why should I have respect of someone that has repect of works? Has no respect of me. You earn it its not a given. His words were his covition.
Oh you poor slobs yall should log on and read some of my wonderful reseach. It will deliver you and before you know it you will drink the koolaid.
You know you can give your body to be burned do all the work and not have true love it won't mean squat. And all you said preatty much fits the bill. I'm working so hard and am so busy I don't really have time to truely love you but here's a bone god bess you i love you. The devil could say that to.
Galations is as true today as before, Who has decieved you?
Charater flaw I'm going to rape someone and call it a carater flaw not once but many times.
I'm going to steal reseach from good saints and call it a charater flaw. and on and on.
How about this one john to be able to have the word like it wasn't known since the first centry. Was that another joke. Where did all the reseach come from others. As bad as I read and spell i can find more stuff in any books store or library. So what if i don't know greek Jesus wasn't greek.
My bible say those that hunger will be filled. So that makes your line a big fat lie. God is a respector of your work and not a saints hunger you lie and speak not the truth of God's word. Go on and stay lockled in you trap. I will still pray for you to be delievered.
Well, Kit...with all due respect to you...and all the others here who are clamoring to touch the hem of Mr. Lynns garment, don't let the door hit you in the arse, John.
Drive by post indeed...he swooped in to see if he could save some of us poor bastards from ourselves, and then he swooped out again...what was the price of your foundational class again John? Gee, can I sign up tonight?...NOT!
I hope I don't offend too many of you good folks here, but JAL is just another pfal grad like the rest of us former cult members...Because he's a little animated, you think he's got an inside to some special truth...good god! Haven't you had enough already? I'm sorry but if any more twi "celebrities" pass through the Cafe...tell em to just keep passing...the door swings both ways. Sell your class to somebody else Lynn, I'm already saved.
On July 29(Thursday), 2004 at 19:23 John Lynn posted this thread.
It is now August 01 (Sundaisy), 2004 and whatever tymex this reply posts.
It has only been three days.
I would think a person as Mr. Lynn's reputation to post such a thread, (and I am considering his position TWI and CES & TS&TInc & Momentus) would have a plan before considering such a thread and response.
Oh come on, let's get just a little bit honest here! There are some here who J.L. could not make happy, save that he spontaneously combust. NOTHING he could say, short of admitting that he is a money grubbing, son of beliel, will convince some that he was finally "getting real". That's what I mean when I say that, from his perspective, coming back to The Spot would seem like a waste of time. I DID NOT SAY THAT ANYONE HERE WAS A WASTE OF TIME!!
I have not yet figured out what to believe about J. Lynn. But I'm willing to listen to what he has to say, calmly and respectfully, and in the same spirit, ask him some pretty tough questions. If he were unwilling to enter into a respectful dialog, I would have nothing more to do with him. But I certainly wouldn't expect him to put up with me spitting repeatedly in his face. I know I will never again let anyone treat me like that.
John said: "I will probably not spend much time reading or answering a bunch of posts, but will give you my email address (jalces@aol.com) and home (317-849-5707) and office (317-255-6189) phone numbers in case you really want to communicate with me. I believe J.L. was indicating that he will not get bogged down into arguing with people who would, in all actuality, just as soon see him dead. Where's the profit in that? But he did make his email and private phone number available for those who truly want to dialog and receive some answers to questions that have been bugging them for eons.
Most people here at The Spot choose to remain entirely entirely anonymous. Everyone here at The Spot participates ON THEIR OWN TERMS. Why is it The Mark of The Beast for J.L. to excercise the same right?
quote:There are some here who J.L. could not make happy, save that he spontaneously combust.
CC, I happen to know this isn't even a possibility, given his adamant stand against smoking.
quote:NOTHING he could say, short of admitting that he is a money grubbing, son of beliel, will convince some that he was finally "getting real".
I never realized that's what "SOB" meant. Anyway, I disagree here too. I don't care what his position might be. I'd just like him to come out from behind your skirt and run the Greasespot gauntlet. Is that too much to ask? When he held a position of authority, he was pretty confident. Without his badge, he vamoosed outta Dodge pretty quick.
Some posters are depicting Greasespot as the "spiritual" equivalent of the famously grotesque Star Wars bar scene. What a convenient image for John to hold, by the way. We aren't "greasespots." We aren't losers, by any stretch. We aren't embittered and disgruntled ex-Christians looking for sacrificial scapegoats to appease our inner demons. Hey, if we only were, that would be easy to deal with, right John?
But we are largely good, responsible, thoughtful, educated, introspective, and loving people who, because we wanted to know the truth, gave many years of our youth to a fraudulent organization. Having found one another years later, compared notes, and understood at least in part the human cost of TWI's deception, we would like an accounting, not only for the past, but from those out of our past who appear to perpetuate still the very same lies that once deceived us.
What we want (if I may say "we") is reasonable, just, and right. We are realistic enough to know a full "accounting" probably won't happen in this life, but determined to make the most of any opportunity, just the same. That's a much tougher audience, isn't it? - real people?
John wasn't ever really "here." How do I know? He won't put anything of his own in writing. Probably following a lawyer's advice. That's why we got the "form letter" - approved by legal. (Yes, we're still under the law, in some ways.) Who can fault him for that? Liability is a big deal these days. John wouldn't want to publish anything for which he might be liable. The truth, for instance.
Hey guys, cut John L. some slack. Before there was a Waydale or Greasespot John was the one people went to with their horror stories about TWI. He really did minister to a lot of people.
I konw from experience because John and I exchanged a bunch of letters back in the early 90's. I'm sure if you send him an e-mail he will respond.
I feel inspired to attempt a cordial albeit public "Dear John" greeting:
Greetings John Lynn;
First off, I must commend you and many of your associate castaways (Ralph D., Sue P., J.S, etc.) during the internet-less age of 86-87 for going public with the Way scandals and dirt at the time. Going public and spreading the info which exposed the Way, demonstrating that it was not the chosen, infallable, one-true-church-of-God-on-earth, proving very liberating for many at the time. It was a much-need catalyst that provided many with the justification and even courage for not remaining in slavery to a corrupt organization, its leaders and its teachings (though unfortunately the latter appears to be a much slower process, in my humble observation). I will always be grateful to you and others for the part you all played back then for bringing about this little "revolution". This appreciation will never be lost to me, even if we should presently disagree on every single thing.
I only wish that you and your associates had continued your "revolution" for truly, complete independence - not only from an organization and its leadership structure- but liberation from the shackles of its teachings.
You did well with pointing out the harm done by the Way's "law of believing" (which effectively filled a role of an OT law for twi). But as I wrote to you a couple years ago, the CES teachings of recent have only strcuk me as "re-hashed" Way teachings. I stated such not be harsh or hyper-critical but to be forthright and honest. It is my opinion, from my observation, that the infallible, inherent perfect Bible "Word-of-God" dogma and ancient propaganda has effected almost immeasurable harm to a genuine Spirit of Christian liberty (in both orthodox and un-orthodox religious circles alike) and (to cite a Bush-ism) has been grossly misunderestimated.
Such a form of Biblatry, more often than not, can be quite stifling. It compels otherwise honest "researchers" to stick their heads in the sand to over 200 years worth of textual critical studies - the same type of studies Wierwille hauled off to the dump, as he once claimed. He obviously didn't appreciate their value, and was too lazy-minded to incorporate (rather than ignore, hide, or burn) the findings of modern scholars into a more mature theology aimed for nourishing the thoughts of spirits living in today's world, without sacrificing the facts of history and textual-criticism.
I've often wondered if one of the reasons for why many of the CES teachings don't appear to me to have advanced beyond a reverberation of Way doctrines is that the folks of CES have neither had the time to truly cross-examine the old stuff, nor the urge to explore other studies, perhaps because you were serving as something of a "half-Way" house for those still leaving the Way. Perhaps you are filling a role here in this regard. A stepping stone for those still leaving.
But I feel that independence from twi will not truly be complete until all the former teachings have been scrutinized, rather than duplicated in some way. And that you have allowed yourselves and those around you - encouraging the same openness in others - the complete liberty and fearlessness to explore and to present other theologies. Or in other words, to actually bring to realization the model of a "Biblical research ministry" to which the Way only rendered lip-service.
And btw, are the doctrines of CES (or whatever it's called now) only restricted to the conclusions of three? And must one always be inclined to choose one doctrine over another (why not present both perspectives, unitarian and trinitarian, without preference to either?)
I guess what I'm trying to express is this: your organization can be something more than a mere sanctuary for Wierwille's wandering ghost.
Now with the presence of GS and other ex-way forums on the internet to fill a vital role CES once did, cast out the old fithy Wierwille phantom of teachings! Perhaps you might even pick up some invaluable "universalist" tips from your UU neighbors. And please, please, please return to the open "DIALOGUE" your organization once exemplified, rather than continuing to engrave your teachings upon the stones of a "CONTENDER".
Terrific letter. I think u should repost it on as a complete topic, ask for everyones approval,(even the most angry of the bunch), ask for critisism to cease and see if he will respond.
Your letter asks questions in a kind, descent and non-condescending way and seeks to put forth meaningful questions that others need to have answer in there future spiritual quest. Superb.
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Goey
If you actually look at the intial responses, there were a lot of "welcomes", and "thank yous" mixed in with with some tough and not so tough questions. If you look at the first 20 or so posts (initial response) there are just as many positive or neutral responses as negative ones. I think is is unreasonalable to expect a red carpet welcome by everyone here. In fact, the inital response was much better than I expected. I personally have no set opinion of JAL or CES but he certainly will not gain any respect from me if he does not return and take on some of the tougher questions.
Mr. Lynn, come back and take on some of the tough stuff and show the "bitter and angry" folks here what you are really made of. You may not get a whole lot of converts, but I suspect that a quite a bit of good could come of it, to you personally, to CES, and to many of the folks here at GS.
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
Well Galen, you know, anything for the cause.
:D-->
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Oakspear
For all of you who think we're too angry and bitter at Grease Spot:
TWI still exists
H*ll, I'm not angry enough
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
And have a much better chance supporting our families, etc.
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Raf
Sky,
I apologize for not answering sooner. I didn't see your post. I'm trying to figure out why it was directed at me, but I'll do my best to answer. Please understand, though, that I had no intention whatsoever of getting involved in any dialogue taking place between you and Galen.
I think Galen's a sincere guy. He and I disagree often, but always respectfully.
Why does the paranoia run so deep? hmm. Good question. I wonder if paranoia is the right word. I wonder if it isn't just the freedom to speak our minds and the boldness to stand up for what we believe. When folks disagree, that boldness can easily be mistaken for a confrontational attitude (or itching for a fight).
Sometimes I find I need to remind myself (or have friends remind me) that in the most heated of flame wars, I'm dealing with a human being. and that we are equally prone to misunderstanding each other.
Anyway, I don't know if that answers your question.
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Danny
Gallen if he was a true minister of God it would be his resposibilty to come and minister. Isn't there a verse or two or three saying that he would in fact have the ministry of reconciliation. Re to brig back isn't that what it means.
His whole little letter was nothing but a lame ad for money, power.
And he said he was shameless at doing it. Did you ever hear about the black heart. Reprobate.
That letter was at the hight of Idoltry.
Why do I need him? Minister your joking?
To say oh it's just a few charater flaws and put it on the devil. What a joke. The only devil he sees is the one in his life.
Bitter far from it. Wiser I would say. When someone brings a bucket of sheet and calls it cream, I just happen to know what each taste like.
Yes your pfal bring that cast system I have Gods favor you don't. Why? If I'm born agin why are you better. Because of your sick beliefs. You know what you can do with your beliefs.
I pray God opens your eyes and Johns also. Yall need it. To rid your lives of the wicked one and wicked ways.
I have seen more true eye opening here than ever in twi. Who was that man behind the curtain?
I will never aging be incased by a broken cistern. Only the true God can delievr you. Look down upon us all you want and what I say. Isn't there a verse about love (faith). yea yea Galen and your pal you can do it all if it ain't Gods love it will be burned and counted for nothing.
Why do you have so much fear in your heart? Why so much judging? Who made you the critic? Who gave you the job? Whats up with that. Love you will pray for you.
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sky4it
Raf:
Thanks for the commentary.
I simply asked you because your answers always seem to contain some forethought and balance.
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frank123lol
Hi John It is a rough and tough place here
We love to speak our minds
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Raf
Only when I take the time to think, Sky. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen (and some might say that doesn't often happen).
But thank you.
:)-->
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Danny
And how about the lines oh I'm so busy. Was that another joke. Hey John it's 2004 I chanllege you to keep up with half what i do in one day they will drag your arce to the ER. You don't think that any of us are busy. Oh I know you are doing the work of the LORD. You haven't read it's not by works. What makes my work less important than yours? Hu Galen? Why should I have respect of someone that has repect of works? Has no respect of me. You earn it its not a given. His words were his covition.
Oh you poor slobs yall should log on and read some of my wonderful reseach. It will deliver you and before you know it you will drink the koolaid.
You know you can give your body to be burned do all the work and not have true love it won't mean squat. And all you said preatty much fits the bill. I'm working so hard and am so busy I don't really have time to truely love you but here's a bone god bess you i love you. The devil could say that to.
Galations is as true today as before, Who has decieved you?
Charater flaw I'm going to rape someone and call it a carater flaw not once but many times.
I'm going to steal reseach from good saints and call it a charater flaw. and on and on.
How about this one john to be able to have the word like it wasn't known since the first centry. Was that another joke. Where did all the reseach come from others. As bad as I read and spell i can find more stuff in any books store or library. So what if i don't know greek Jesus wasn't greek.
My bible say those that hunger will be filled. So that makes your line a big fat lie. God is a respector of your work and not a saints hunger you lie and speak not the truth of God's word. Go on and stay lockled in you trap. I will still pray for you to be delievered.
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Kit Sober
Hi, John.
Miss you.
Thanks for all the kindness you have brought into the world.
You are a treasure for which I am sincerely thankful.
Kit Sober
Reno NV
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GrouchoMarxJr
Well, Kit...with all due respect to you...and all the others here who are clamoring to touch the hem of Mr. Lynns garment, don't let the door hit you in the arse, John.
Drive by post indeed...he swooped in to see if he could save some of us poor bastards from ourselves, and then he swooped out again...what was the price of your foundational class again John? Gee, can I sign up tonight?...NOT!
I hope I don't offend too many of you good folks here, but JAL is just another pfal grad like the rest of us former cult members...Because he's a little animated, you think he's got an inside to some special truth...good god! Haven't you had enough already? I'm sorry but if any more twi "celebrities" pass through the Cafe...tell em to just keep passing...the door swings both ways. Sell your class to somebody else Lynn, I'm already saved.
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Danny
UH preach it.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
On July 29(Thursday), 2004 at 19:23 John Lynn posted this thread.
It is now August 01 (Sundaisy), 2004 and whatever tymex this reply posts.
It has only been three days.
I would think a person as Mr. Lynn's reputation to post such a thread, (and I am considering his position TWI and CES & TS&TInc & Momentus) would have a plan before considering such a thread and response.
If he does not show, I suppose ~~~
"WE MUST MOVE ON!!!"
Rok On
Song
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
tap tap tap...
damn it all~~~ What Would Moses Do?
~~~
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Cherished Child
Oh come on, let's get just a little bit honest here! There are some here who J.L. could not make happy, save that he spontaneously combust. NOTHING he could say, short of admitting that he is a money grubbing, son of beliel, will convince some that he was finally "getting real". That's what I mean when I say that, from his perspective, coming back to The Spot would seem like a waste of time. I DID NOT SAY THAT ANYONE HERE WAS A WASTE OF TIME!!
I have not yet figured out what to believe about J. Lynn. But I'm willing to listen to what he has to say, calmly and respectfully, and in the same spirit, ask him some pretty tough questions. If he were unwilling to enter into a respectful dialog, I would have nothing more to do with him. But I certainly wouldn't expect him to put up with me spitting repeatedly in his face. I know I will never again let anyone treat me like that.
John said: "I will probably not spend much time reading or answering a bunch of posts, but will give you my email address (jalces@aol.com) and home (317-849-5707) and office (317-255-6189) phone numbers in case you really want to communicate with me. I believe J.L. was indicating that he will not get bogged down into arguing with people who would, in all actuality, just as soon see him dead. Where's the profit in that? But he did make his email and private phone number available for those who truly want to dialog and receive some answers to questions that have been bugging them for eons.
Most people here at The Spot choose to remain entirely entirely anonymous. Everyone here at The Spot participates ON THEIR OWN TERMS. Why is it The Mark of The Beast for J.L. to excercise the same right?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
CC,
John Lynn is "witnessing" and moving the word over the world.
He will speak when God faxes him... uhmm ... or either Jesus Christ
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Let's see...
there are 2thousand399 views and 120 responses so far... that is a 5% return for 1 thread
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satori001
Cherished Child wrote:
CC, I happen to know this isn't even a possibility, given his adamant stand against smoking.I never realized that's what "SOB" meant. Anyway, I disagree here too. I don't care what his position might be. I'd just like him to come out from behind your skirt and run the Greasespot gauntlet. Is that too much to ask? When he held a position of authority, he was pretty confident. Without his badge, he vamoosed outta Dodge pretty quick.Some posters are depicting Greasespot as the "spiritual" equivalent of the famously grotesque Star Wars bar scene. What a convenient image for John to hold, by the way. We aren't "greasespots." We aren't losers, by any stretch. We aren't embittered and disgruntled ex-Christians looking for sacrificial scapegoats to appease our inner demons. Hey, if we only were, that would be easy to deal with, right John?
But we are largely good, responsible, thoughtful, educated, introspective, and loving people who, because we wanted to know the truth, gave many years of our youth to a fraudulent organization. Having found one another years later, compared notes, and understood at least in part the human cost of TWI's deception, we would like an accounting, not only for the past, but from those out of our past who appear to perpetuate still the very same lies that once deceived us.
What we want (if I may say "we") is reasonable, just, and right. We are realistic enough to know a full "accounting" probably won't happen in this life, but determined to make the most of any opportunity, just the same. That's a much tougher audience, isn't it? - real people?
John wasn't ever really "here." How do I know? He won't put anything of his own in writing. Probably following a lawyer's advice. That's why we got the "form letter" - approved by legal. (Yes, we're still under the law, in some ways.) Who can fault him for that? Liability is a big deal these days. John wouldn't want to publish anything for which he might be liable. The truth, for instance.
edited for spelling
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GarthP2000
Hey! I'd be*really* happy if he'd spontaneously combust; heck, I'd even pay good money to watch! ... $10, mebbe $20.
Gotta be real fire, tho'.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
YO GARTH!!!!!!!
Jo*n Ly*n does not ask for money.
I am sure he will spontaneously combust for free... after all, it's just a fire shut up in his bones...
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TOMMYZ
Hey guys, cut John L. some slack. Before there was a Waydale or Greasespot John was the one people went to with their horror stories about TWI. He really did minister to a lot of people.
I konw from experience because John and I exchanged a bunch of letters back in the early 90's. I'm sure if you send him an e-mail he will respond.
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TheInvisibleDan
I feel inspired to attempt a cordial albeit public "Dear John" greeting:
Greetings John Lynn;
First off, I must commend you and many of your associate castaways (Ralph D., Sue P., J.S, etc.) during the internet-less age of 86-87 for going public with the Way scandals and dirt at the time. Going public and spreading the info which exposed the Way, demonstrating that it was not the chosen, infallable, one-true-church-of-God-on-earth, proving very liberating for many at the time. It was a much-need catalyst that provided many with the justification and even courage for not remaining in slavery to a corrupt organization, its leaders and its teachings (though unfortunately the latter appears to be a much slower process, in my humble observation). I will always be grateful to you and others for the part you all played back then for bringing about this little "revolution". This appreciation will never be lost to me, even if we should presently disagree on every single thing.
I only wish that you and your associates had continued your "revolution" for truly, complete independence - not only from an organization and its leadership structure- but liberation from the shackles of its teachings.
You did well with pointing out the harm done by the Way's "law of believing" (which effectively filled a role of an OT law for twi). But as I wrote to you a couple years ago, the CES teachings of recent have only strcuk me as "re-hashed" Way teachings. I stated such not be harsh or hyper-critical but to be forthright and honest. It is my opinion, from my observation, that the infallible, inherent perfect Bible "Word-of-God" dogma and ancient propaganda has effected almost immeasurable harm to a genuine Spirit of Christian liberty (in both orthodox and un-orthodox religious circles alike) and (to cite a Bush-ism) has been grossly misunderestimated.
Such a form of Biblatry, more often than not, can be quite stifling. It compels otherwise honest "researchers" to stick their heads in the sand to over 200 years worth of textual critical studies - the same type of studies Wierwille hauled off to the dump, as he once claimed. He obviously didn't appreciate their value, and was too lazy-minded to incorporate (rather than ignore, hide, or burn) the findings of modern scholars into a more mature theology aimed for nourishing the thoughts of spirits living in today's world, without sacrificing the facts of history and textual-criticism.
I've often wondered if one of the reasons for why many of the CES teachings don't appear to me to have advanced beyond a reverberation of Way doctrines is that the folks of CES have neither had the time to truly cross-examine the old stuff, nor the urge to explore other studies, perhaps because you were serving as something of a "half-Way" house for those still leaving the Way. Perhaps you are filling a role here in this regard. A stepping stone for those still leaving.
But I feel that independence from twi will not truly be complete until all the former teachings have been scrutinized, rather than duplicated in some way. And that you have allowed yourselves and those around you - encouraging the same openness in others - the complete liberty and fearlessness to explore and to present other theologies. Or in other words, to actually bring to realization the model of a "Biblical research ministry" to which the Way only rendered lip-service.
And btw, are the doctrines of CES (or whatever it's called now) only restricted to the conclusions of three? And must one always be inclined to choose one doctrine over another (why not present both perspectives, unitarian and trinitarian, without preference to either?)
I guess what I'm trying to express is this: your organization can be something more than a mere sanctuary for Wierwille's wandering ghost.
Now with the presence of GS and other ex-way forums on the internet to fill a vital role CES once did, cast out the old fithy Wierwille phantom of teachings! Perhaps you might even pick up some invaluable "universalist" tips from your UU neighbors. And please, please, please return to the open "DIALOGUE" your organization once exemplified, rather than continuing to engrave your teachings upon the stones of a "CONTENDER".
I hope you consider my suggestions.
I wish you well.
Danny
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sky4it
Invisible Dan:
Terrific letter. I think u should repost it on as a complete topic, ask for everyones approval,(even the most angry of the bunch), ask for critisism to cease and see if he will respond.
Your letter asks questions in a kind, descent and non-condescending way and seeks to put forth meaningful questions that others need to have answer in there future spiritual quest. Superb.
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