The Enemy saw clearly that VPW/TWI did have (1) a package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries.
This is literal hogwash. Why is that that the ministry you received was greater by comparison than those around you? Why must you hyperventalate in such fashion to valid it? To me Mr. Lynn its the same ole Me Big , you Little arguement that TWI used to have and I am wondering why you still do this?
I realize this may not be the appropriate place for "doctrinal" discussions but Sky4it's colorful comments in response to John's suggestion that VPW proposed "a package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries" is not entirely unwarranted - for anyone who troubles themselves to visit their local libraries to explore what other "biblical research" has been done for at least these past couple of centuries by those countless scholars deliberately ignored by Wierwille, - it is very much so "literal hogwash".
But perhaps this can be explored further at another occassion.
And Satori - did you actually intend the wily, Elton-John looking "Hamburgler" in place of "Ronald McDevil"? If not, where does our wicked "Hamburgler" friend fit into all of this?
"Galen: I aint angry at him, I dont hate him, and I dont fear him. I just simply disagree with him. As far as jumping on him goes, so what? Its a free country that our fathers fought for so we could think independently. So why dont you go beat your drum somewhere else"
Fine then I am well within that same freedom to ask you to be nice, loving and accepting of John as he dips his toes into the GS waters.
Greet John, welcome him on-board and pray for him; as you would wish that we all did for you.
"ok How exactly did I insult him? Would you feel better if I said Sig Heil to everything he said? No thanks. Been there done that with those types. I dont remember anyone bieng considerate and understanding to me when I turned a deaf ear to The Way Doctrines. I've got a problem with those doctrines. In my opinion, if John were considering what I said, he would thank me and call me his friend. But he wont discuss specifics, so thats his problem not mine. Personlly I dont like your tactics, trying to make me feel guilty for differentiating on things I disagree with. Did I tell John and you that you had anger, fear and hatred toward me because he disagrees with me? No I did not. So why don't you go and get over it."
You say that you offer no insult, though you compare him to Hitler.
Is that truly loving?
Greet John, welcome him on-board and pray for him; as you would wish that we all did for you.
You say that you offer no insult, though you compare him to Hitler.
Is that truly loving?
Greet John, welcome him on-board and pray for him; as you would wish that we all did for you.
Galen:
I didnt see Adolf Hitlers name in that comment i made did you? Then why inflame the remark? Then why bring it up? I merely stating that I can question his stuff and theres nothing wrong with that. Still I didnt like your tactics trying to make me feel guilty.
With regard to the other part, I agree with you and I will pray for John and CES. I think that is approbriate. And by the way John , hello, and welcome on board. I'm glad to hear your having new experiences with Jesus and I sincerely mean it. If your asking for peace galen ok peace. Still that doesnt mean I will agree with John on any topic, that I think is off base.
Well... where ever he's coming from... what ever his motive is... he DID come here... and that's a lot more than can be said for "the others"... I'm sure it's not a surprise to him that he's been met with "mixed emotions"... but he did come by...
I have read a few things at TruthOrPerdition.com, and only recently. Like John, though unlike John's, my life is full, and I don't have time to wade through a lot of re-hashed Wierwillian double-speak. Let me say this. The material I did read, which had to do with "Why we should trust the bible," and a few brief essays on "logic," was none too impressive.
Thanks! You answered my question. Since you have looked at their site (and I didn't expect that you would be spending untold hours there), you have at least done some homework. And if you say their reasoning is "dumbing down, circular, or childish reasoning", now I know you are expressing an opinion formulated from "gathering evidence".
quote: But here's the real rub. It isn't even good enough for the faithful, if "education" is the goal. It really isn't. It's purposely dumb, not because they think you're dumb, but because they are TRAINING you to be dumb. What?? No!! Yes! Think about it. (Please?) Just as TWI did. (bold & italics my emphasis)
I do not see myself, or anyone else being trained to be "dumb", and tho the "education offered", revolves around the CES teachings to be sure, many other authors are cited, quoted, and, their books mentioned as "something for you to consider". But, since you said "please" -- I will think about it. :)--> (really -- I will.)
Sure CES is propogating some - (emphasis on some), of the doctrine taught in twi, but then again -- so is the Charismatic Catholic Church, Vineyard Fellowship, Assembly of God, Messianic Jews, and even the Jehovah Witnesses (to mention a few I am familiar with). VPW did such a great job of taking things from wherever he could find them, that undoubtably you could find his teachings in a lot of outfits (these days) who have never even heard of the guy.
I'm being semi-facetious here, because I know what you are saying, yet many things taught by vpw can be found in churches today. Yet those churches do not take the credit for "receiving the Rev" about those given subjects. They give "honour where honour is due", and don't hog all the glory for themselves.
IMHO -- CES is not "hogging the credit" for "newly" received revelation either. They have had no "snowstorms" in July, no audible voice saying "I'll teach you the Word", no this, no that. What they DO HAVE is a desire to move the Word of God, and promote Jesus Christ our Saviour, to whomever cares to listen.
If you find their teachings circuitous and childish -- well -- so be it. That is your opinion. Opinions are valued, especially at CES -- who in the past 15 plus years have never told me what to believe, how to believe, or "we believe you should send us some money".
I'm not the "sharpest knife" in the drawer, but I have been around CES for a good bit of time now, and find myself no less sharp a result. In fact, they have helped me become just a bit sharper, through their research, and ministry.
Oh -- also (Bullinger) -- yes, John Shoenheit uses the word "rapture" instead of "gathering together".
He explains the use therof by saying that there were many gatherings mentioned in the Word, yet this one is distinct from all the others, and comes from the Latin word "raptere" (I could be wrong about the spelling of this here).
I have a Latin dictionary that defines
rapio as "to snatch to oneself, or to sieze hastily".
and raptum as "that which is carried off; plunder, or booty, to sieze for oneself by taking away, or carrying away".
I agree that some of that is true. Thats why I think the TWI experience can be beneficial in some respects.
Amen, and amen. I agree. I've got a job I love, yet the boss is a pain in theass. I'm not quitting the job, just because of the boss.
I have never considered throwing out a good thing, just because some of it was bad. twi taught some good stuff, and they taught some bad stuff. Other churches I have been in have done the same.
As satori001 said:
quote: Just as TWI did. Remember, dmiller, a lot of smart people (me included) accepted Wierwille's presentation, overlooking the many, many flaws, against our better judgment because we were just desparate enough to believe God was at the end of Vic's "rainbow."
"God at the end of the rainbow" -- describes what so many outfits (ie.- read "churches") are trying to sell you, either subtly, or not so subtly.
My personal opinion is that any given church has concrete possession of "one or two of the rainbow colours", but no church possesses the entire spectrum ranging from infra-red to ultra-violet. In other words, no church has the complete, true, unadulterated Word Of God, despite their claims. (Don't we know it!) :(-->
So I take what I can from what is offered by the various churches. There is a real smorgasboard of beliefs out there. Some choices are healthy, some are not.
I treat CES the same way. Although I support them, I don't take everything they teach for granted. I like their stuff, yet there is some of it I question also.
The only church that will ever have a solid lock on the entire spectrum of the rainbow, is the one Jesus Christ Himself will be the Head of.
Until then -- it's up to us to do what we can for ourselves at the smorgasboard.
Does it bother anyone else that there are literally word for word duplications between JAL's letter to Steve Lortz and his epistle to those living in LandoftheGreasy Spot?
I thought that I was confused as to which thread said what.
Then I realized that JAL had posted here mostly word for word what he had written to Steve.
Something about that tells me that we still are seeing the same "form letter" with the "I Love You" approach.
----
Now before some of you fellow g-spotters think any more about what you have just read (and make the conclusion that I am just going to trash John Lynn or just be critical) in my opening comments consider all that I am now about to write:
In June of 1972 I attended a Sunday Night meeting in a VFW hall in Indianapolis at the invitation of a friend.
During that meeting, and several subsequent Sunday meetings I heard someone speak about God and the Bible like I had never heard before.
The logic and passion of his delivery as well as his likeable personality and sense of humor
were big factors in me listening intently.
At the conclusion of the first meeting there was an opportunity for attendees to come forward and be prayed for, or in their words to be "ministered to".
Having a need, I stepped forward and a person stepped behind me and prayed for me, with an almost supernatural ability to mention specific things that had prompted me to step forward.
The teacher for those meetings and the co-ordinator of those people ministering was
And praise the Lord Jesus for all he did, is doing, and will do for each of us, and that we really can be like him if we are willing to face the sin that dwells within us and allow him to do the appropriate heart surgery.
Thats a wonderful comment John. For its God that works in us.
Cess pool? How can one POSSIBLY evaluate what we look and smell like here at the ole greasespot...when one`s nose, mouth, ears, and eyes .... heck it would seem every bodily orfice so tightly jam pack plugged up with sh-t from twi/pfal?
Generally, when one cannot see the great good that is being accomplished here, or underestimates the value of participation....it is because they are still completely blinded by adherance to the doctrines of a man who participated in and promoted viley evil practices...may I offer your exway friends some q tips and lens cleaner in order to apreciate the beauty to be enjoyed here Galen?
As far as John Lynn....I can tell how much folks REALLY mean to you....we aren`t even important enough to read and respond to...fine...noooooo problem...we don`t NEED your participation in/on our road to recovery....(I am not even sure that one blanket letter posted even constitues *being here*) ... but dammit, don`t show up here and claim to *love* us or pretend you give a damn about anyones well being if you cannot even muster the respect or compassion ...(not to mention patience) to listen politely to what we have to say...it is the ultimate sign of disrespect and dismissal........what it IS ... is simply empty *feel good* words....
Wonder if you really believe that that what you did/said constitutes *caring*.....
As much as I'd prefer John engage folks publicly on this and other threads, I have to take exception to some sentiments expressed here...
quote:As far as John Lynn....I can tell how much folks REALLY mean to you....we aren`t even important enough to read and respond to...
Luvya Rascal, but sheesh! The man gave his friggin phone number! How many of us have done that? Anyone who wants to take it up with him can do so. You wanna know my phone number? look it up; I ain't postin it on no message board!
You guys called him out here, he showed up, and that's more than anyone else has done. Where's VF? Where's CG? Where's LCM? Heck, where are John Linder and Harve Platig? What are their phone numbers?
JAL:
If you read this little bit of advice: stick around for about a week. Take some time to respond and tangle for a little bit. It might be fun. Then go back to what you were doing before. You won't be the first or the last to have done so.
So 'the Real John' shows up and makes a post. ((slowly twirling my finger in the air in a sarcastic motion)) ... Whooo-peeee!! ... Whatta miracle! Hell, he even posted his phone number. Ok, I'll give him a few more points for that, altho' anybody can look up anybody's number via online white pages sites if their number isn't non-published or [/b]non-listed[/b].
If this is his only post, (unless he follows thru and posts more) then his post is basically just an advertisment, a teaser. So here he is, an imitator of Jesus Christ supposedly, right? So that's what Jesus did all of his life? Playing 'popup ad' all over Isreal, hoping that folks would nibble at it, and then come to hear his teachings (and perhaps buy his books)?
Yeah, I said 'popup ad', 'cause that's the impression that I got with Lynn's 'let me show ya how much I love ya' post. :P--> ..... Hell, and I thought I had my spam and popup blocker working!
--> Thanks but no thanks, John. And if you do post again (altho' I sorta doubt it) do us all a favor. Do NOT advertise for Momentus.
Because there are many here who would treat that 'popup ad' like a VIRUS!!
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def59
Galen
Why do you hang out in this "cesspool" is it because you just can't wash this stink away?
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sky4it
mj:
i posted for you and satori my differences with the Ways interpetation of doctrines. your comment please.
I must also say that the stuff you posted on the John Lynn letter thread was somewhat unnerving. Unfortuneately I dont have any way to valid that.
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Danny
John I see you have had full knowledge that Jeff posted your letter, I'm so glad you think VP would be proud of you. Wow
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mj412
sky I wrote something for you.
and just for the record that cesspool comment hurt my feelings Galen. good job.
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TheInvisibleDan
I realize this may not be the appropriate place for "doctrinal" discussions but Sky4it's colorful comments in response to John's suggestion that VPW proposed "a package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries" is not entirely unwarranted - for anyone who troubles themselves to visit their local libraries to explore what other "biblical research" has been done for at least these past couple of centuries by those countless scholars deliberately ignored by Wierwille, - it is very much so "literal hogwash".
But perhaps this can be explored further at another occassion.
And Satori - did you actually intend the wily, Elton-John looking "Hamburgler" in place of "Ronald McDevil"? If not, where does our wicked "Hamburgler" friend fit into all of this?
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Galen
sky4it:
"Galen: I aint angry at him, I dont hate him, and I dont fear him. I just simply disagree with him. As far as jumping on him goes, so what? Its a free country that our fathers fought for so we could think independently. So why dont you go beat your drum somewhere else"
Fine then I am well within that same freedom to ask you to be nice, loving and accepting of John as he dips his toes into the GS waters.
Greet John, welcome him on-board and pray for him; as you would wish that we all did for you.
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Galen
sky4it:
"ok How exactly did I insult him? Would you feel better if I said Sig Heil to everything he said? No thanks. Been there done that with those types. I dont remember anyone bieng considerate and understanding to me when I turned a deaf ear to The Way Doctrines. I've got a problem with those doctrines. In my opinion, if John were considering what I said, he would thank me and call me his friend. But he wont discuss specifics, so thats his problem not mine. Personlly I dont like your tactics, trying to make me feel guilty for differentiating on things I disagree with. Did I tell John and you that you had anger, fear and hatred toward me because he disagrees with me? No I did not. So why don't you go and get over it."
You say that you offer no insult, though you compare him to Hitler.
Is that truly loving?
Greet John, welcome him on-board and pray for him; as you would wish that we all did for you.
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Galen
def59:
"Why do you hang out in this "cesspool" is it because you just can't wash this stink away?"
At times I do come across other standing beleivers here.
Others who are doing their best to study the Word, Worship their Creator, follow their brother Jesus, and help others.
Cant we just:
Greet John, welcome him on-board and pray for him; as you would wish that we all did for you.
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sky4it
galen:
Your comment:
Others who are doing their best to study the Word, Worship their Creator, follow their brother Jesus, and help others.
galen:
And who said you couldnt do that? So why the rhetoric with me when I disagree with statements of CES?
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sky4it
Galen:
You say that you offer no insult, though you compare him to Hitler.
Is that truly loving?
Greet John, welcome him on-board and pray for him; as you would wish that we all did for you.
Galen:
I didnt see Adolf Hitlers name in that comment i made did you? Then why inflame the remark? Then why bring it up? I merely stating that I can question his stuff and theres nothing wrong with that. Still I didnt like your tactics trying to make me feel guilty.
With regard to the other part, I agree with you and I will pray for John and CES. I think that is approbriate. And by the way John , hello, and welcome on board. I'm glad to hear your having new experiences with Jesus and I sincerely mean it. If your asking for peace galen ok peace. Still that doesnt mean I will agree with John on any topic, that I think is off base.
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Tom Strange
Well... where ever he's coming from... what ever his motive is... he DID come here... and that's a lot more than can be said for "the others"... I'm sure it's not a surprise to him that he's been met with "mixed emotions"... but he did come by...
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dmiller
Thanks! You answered my question. Since you have looked at their site (and I didn't expect that you would be spending untold hours there), you have at least done some homework. And if you say their reasoning is "dumbing down, circular, or childish reasoning", now I know you are expressing an opinion formulated from "gathering evidence".
I do not see myself, or anyone else being trained to be "dumb", and tho the "education offered", revolves around the CES teachings to be sure, many other authors are cited, quoted, and, their books mentioned as "something for you to consider". But, since you said "please" -- I will think about it.
:)--> (really -- I will.)
Sure CES is propogating some - (emphasis on some), of the doctrine taught in twi, but then again -- so is the Charismatic Catholic Church, Vineyard Fellowship, Assembly of God, Messianic Jews, and even the Jehovah Witnesses (to mention a few I am familiar with). VPW did such a great job of taking things from wherever he could find them, that undoubtably you could find his teachings in a lot of outfits (these days) who have never even heard of the guy.
I'm being semi-facetious here, because I know what you are saying, yet many things taught by vpw can be found in churches today. Yet those churches do not take the credit for "receiving the Rev" about those given subjects. They give "honour where honour is due", and don't hog all the glory for themselves.
IMHO -- CES is not "hogging the credit" for "newly" received revelation either. They have had no "snowstorms" in July, no audible voice saying "I'll teach you the Word", no this, no that. What they DO HAVE is a desire to move the Word of God, and promote Jesus Christ our Saviour, to whomever cares to listen.
If you find their teachings circuitous and childish -- well -- so be it. That is your opinion. Opinions are valued, especially at CES -- who in the past 15 plus years have never told me what to believe, how to believe, or "we believe you should send us some money".
I'm not the "sharpest knife" in the drawer, but I have been around CES for a good bit of time now, and find myself no less sharp a result. In fact, they have helped me become just a bit sharper, through their research, and ministry.
Now that is a "dumbing down" I can handle!!
:)-->
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sky4it
dmiller:
your comment:
I'm being semi-facetious here, because I know what you are saying, yet many things taught by vpw can be found in churches today.
I agree that some of that is true. Thats why I think the TWI experience can be beneficial in some respects.
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dmiller
Oh -- also (Bullinger) -- yes, John Shoenheit uses the word "rapture" instead of "gathering together".
He explains the use therof by saying that there were many gatherings mentioned in the Word, yet this one is distinct from all the others, and comes from the Latin word "raptere" (I could be wrong about the spelling of this here).
I have a Latin dictionary that defines
rapio as "to snatch to oneself, or to sieze hastily".
and raptum as "that which is carried off; plunder, or booty, to sieze for oneself by taking away, or carrying away".
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Jim
Maybe it's time for the thread to move to doctrine. I haven't seen a reference to JAL for about 15 posts...
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dmiller
Amen, and amen. I agree. I've got a job I love, yet the boss is a pain in theass. I'm not quitting the job, just because of the boss.
I have never considered throwing out a good thing, just because some of it was bad. twi taught some good stuff, and they taught some bad stuff. Other churches I have been in have done the same.
As satori001 said:
"God at the end of the rainbow" -- describes what so many outfits (ie.- read "churches") are trying to sell you, either subtly, or not so subtly.
My personal opinion is that any given church has concrete possession of "one or two of the rainbow colours", but no church possesses the entire spectrum ranging from infra-red to ultra-violet. In other words, no church has the complete, true, unadulterated Word Of God, despite their claims. (Don't we know it!)
:(-->
So I take what I can from what is offered by the various churches. There is a real smorgasboard of beliefs out there. Some choices are healthy, some are not.
I treat CES the same way. Although I support them, I don't take everything they teach for granted. I like their stuff, yet there is some of it I question also.
The only church that will ever have a solid lock on the entire spectrum of the rainbow, is the one Jesus Christ Himself will be the Head of.
Until then -- it's up to us to do what we can for ourselves at the smorgasboard.
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sky4it
dmiller:
loved your last post, and thats great the things you say and are learning
:)-->
gotta get some shut eye niters
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Darrell Bailey
Does it bother anyone else that there are literally word for word duplications between JAL's letter to Steve Lortz and his epistle to those living in LandoftheGreasy Spot?
I thought that I was confused as to which thread said what.
Then I realized that JAL had posted here mostly word for word what he had written to Steve.
Something about that tells me that we still are seeing the same "form letter" with the "I Love You" approach.
----
Now before some of you fellow g-spotters think any more about what you have just read (and make the conclusion that I am just going to trash John Lynn or just be critical) in my opening comments consider all that I am now about to write:
In June of 1972 I attended a Sunday Night meeting in a VFW hall in Indianapolis at the invitation of a friend.
During that meeting, and several subsequent Sunday meetings I heard someone speak about God and the Bible like I had never heard before.
The logic and passion of his delivery as well as his likeable personality and sense of humor
were big factors in me listening intently.
At the conclusion of the first meeting there was an opportunity for attendees to come forward and be prayed for, or in their words to be "ministered to".
Having a need, I stepped forward and a person stepped behind me and prayed for me, with an almost supernatural ability to mention specific things that had prompted me to step forward.
The teacher for those meetings and the co-ordinator of those people ministering was
a young man named John Lynn.
--
More to come . . .
Darrell Bailey
Greater Indianapolis Area
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satori001
It sure is.
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sky4it
John and Galen:
John your comment:
And praise the Lord Jesus for all he did, is doing, and will do for each of us, and that we really can be like him if we are willing to face the sin that dwells within us and allow him to do the appropriate heart surgery.
Thats a wonderful comment John. For its God that works in us.
See Galen, I am not always an orge.
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rascal
Cess pool? How can one POSSIBLY evaluate what we look and smell like here at the ole greasespot...when one`s nose, mouth, ears, and eyes .... heck it would seem every bodily orfice so tightly jam pack plugged up with sh-t from twi/pfal?
Generally, when one cannot see the great good that is being accomplished here, or underestimates the value of participation....it is because they are still completely blinded by adherance to the doctrines of a man who participated in and promoted viley evil practices...may I offer your exway friends some q tips and lens cleaner in order to apreciate the beauty to be enjoyed here Galen?
As far as John Lynn....I can tell how much folks REALLY mean to you....we aren`t even important enough to read and respond to...fine...noooooo problem...we don`t NEED your participation in/on our road to recovery....(I am not even sure that one blanket letter posted even constitues *being here*) ... but dammit, don`t show up here and claim to *love* us or pretend you give a damn about anyones well being if you cannot even muster the respect or compassion ...(not to mention patience) to listen politely to what we have to say...it is the ultimate sign of disrespect and dismissal........what it IS ... is simply empty *feel good* words....
Wonder if you really believe that that what you did/said constitutes *caring*.....
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Danny
Rascal it is what happenes to someone that is still hung up on pfal. they show their kind of love not Gods.
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Raf
As much as I'd prefer John engage folks publicly on this and other threads, I have to take exception to some sentiments expressed here...
Luvya Rascal, but sheesh! The man gave his friggin phone number! How many of us have done that? Anyone who wants to take it up with him can do so. You wanna know my phone number? look it up; I ain't postin it on no message board!
You guys called him out here, he showed up, and that's more than anyone else has done. Where's VF? Where's CG? Where's LCM? Heck, where are John Linder and Harve Platig? What are their phone numbers?
JAL:
If you read this little bit of advice: stick around for about a week. Take some time to respond and tangle for a little bit. It might be fun. Then go back to what you were doing before. You won't be the first or the last to have done so.
God Bless You. (That's addressed to all of you).
Raf
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GarthP2000
Sorry Rafmiester,
But I gotta go with Rascal on this one.
So 'the Real John' shows up and makes a post. ((slowly twirling my finger in the air in a sarcastic motion)) ... Whooo-peeee!! ... Whatta miracle! Hell, he even posted his phone number. Ok, I'll give him a few more points for that, altho' anybody can look up anybody's number via online white pages sites if their number isn't non-published or [/b]non-listed[/b].
If this is his only post, (unless he follows thru and posts more) then his post is basically just an advertisment, a teaser. So here he is, an imitator of Jesus Christ supposedly, right? So that's what Jesus did all of his life? Playing 'popup ad' all over Isreal, hoping that folks would nibble at it, and then come to hear his teachings (and perhaps buy his books)?
Yeah, I said 'popup ad', 'cause that's the impression that I got with Lynn's 'let me show ya how much I love ya' post.
:P--> ..... Hell, and I thought I had my spam and popup blocker working!
Because there are many here who would treat that 'popup ad' like a VIRUS!!
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