It was so long ago. But I think we all pretty much concur. Now I remember, yes, us corps did get to vote. I also about fell out of my chair too when I heard it would be LCM. I remember VP saying at a corps meeting he didn't know anyone better who could be president than Walter.
Hope, I, for some reason, thought VP was overrulled by other leadership and decided not to fight it. But, Danny has an interesting point, who knows what LCM had on VP. I had never considered that.
I do know, that it was obvious VP was later not happy and I think had some regrets about it being LCM. A member of the LCM family also told me that LCM's and DM's parents both had reservations about making LCM president. They thought he was too young to be handed all the power and money and authority over people he was getting. So, at least one of the families was not happy about it either.
I also remember, it was fairly common knowledge on staff, VP was not happy about the AOS production. He felt LCM should have been working on how to best lead and take over the ministry. Someone said VP had said he wished he had never taught AOS. He never thought LCM would "run with it" like that.
I don't have any specifics, hell at this late date I have few generalities, but I never thought ANYBODY else was ever really in the running for Pres.
My impression at the time was that it was a done deal. Craiggers would be the new prez.
I know Wierwille's line at the time was that the job could go to "any PFAL grad". Yeah, sure.
Everybody knew THAT was B.S.
But it seemed for years that LCM was being groomed to take over.
He was the one always traveling with VPW, always got the "plum" kinda jobs, always leading the crowd or warming up the room for VP's victorious entrance. I was certain it'd be nobody BUT LCM for years. It always seemed like everyone else around was playing second string. VP always threw the laurels to Craig.
When I got involved in TWI, there were very few Corps in our area, even though it was huge (Long Island, NY). None of the nine or ten Branch Leaders were in the Corps, the Area Coordinator and Limb Coordinator you hardly saw, so you just didn't hear all that much about Craig. To me, the TWI "celebrities" were Ralph D, Vince F (the worldwide outreach coordinator),John Lynn, Walter, Don Wierwille & Howard Allen. Those were the big shots that you saw all the time if you didn't spend any time at Emporia or HQ.
It wasn't until my WOW year (1980-81) that I started hearing about Craig...from my interim Corps WOW family coordinator. When they announced in December 1980 (may be off a few months on the date) that Craig was to be the next Prez, I was pretty surprised. "Who the f*** is Craig Martindale?"
Maybe you just ran in more elite circles than i did George :D-->
I could've sworn that we were "told" either in our first year in rez, or on our interim year, that LCM was "on deck" for the presidency... that's my memory of it... though I wouldn't ask you all to rely on my memory too much these days! :D--> As to "how he got there...", I don't know...
Let us not forget that vic was famous for saying different things to different groups...
I was in WA state at the time and R Feese, the limb and region guy, went back for the "placement" meetings in Feb. '81. When he got back, he did a kork meeting and gave us a a fairly detailed report on what came down. He said that vic told them his thoughts but gave the supposed "final" decision to the region, campus and prez cab guys(what, 24,25 people at most?) and said to them "He will be your prez, you decide--"
So they tossed it around and the consensus was eventually that lcm was the best guy to be the "public face" kida guy the prez needed to be or somesuch reason...
Personally, at various times vic was real high on J Townsend and Del Duncan to be the prez and I know Walter was always there as the backup plan. I just think vic finally decided most of these guys, kork grads for the most part, would not follow Walter like they would one of their own...
Oh, and finally, after these guys voted and all, vic gives 'em the "are you gonna tear this thing apart after I die or are you gonna follow "Joshua" craggggg into the next phase" or whatever he called it... Feese said that really buzzkilled the party.... :D--> --> :P--> -->
George, the ADV Cl 1979 was held in teh summer at Ohio University in Athens, Ohio. It was two weeks long. The Saturday in the middle was open to all and it was called "Specially Mine in '79". I think it was that day that in VPW's absence, it was made known to us all that he liked this Lincoln Town car ahe had seen at a lot somewhere in NW Ohio. I think it was a couple years old, but as Blue Sunday said it was silver. So everybody chipped in and they bought it for him. It actually outlived him, as I recall seeing it parked behind the house or barn, and it had vanity plates reading VPW. Of course a phonetic of my name is on my plate so I'll not criticize! :o--> But that is the best of my recollection.
That was also the time when it was revealed to all us underlings that he didn't like garlic.
Walter Cummins was VPWs first choice, but all the "heavy revvies" felt that Walter didn't have the personality to hold twi together after VPW died. They felt that since LCM had been the corps coordinator forever that he would have the loyalty and support of the corps household. Everybody felt that LCM DID NOT HAVE THE COMMAND of the bible that Walter did so they "compromised."
LCM was to be the "public voice and face (forehead?) of twi, but he was NOT going to be the one teaching corps night to the corps, that was to be Walter Cummins domain. As I remember it, VPW did the opening night(s) of the corps in September of 1982, then corps nite was suspended (because all of the in residence corps went to hq to get ready for the innauguration.)
Sometime in October 1982, when Corps nites officially resumed, the prez of twi was LCM, he opened corps nite, etc, and then turned the teachings over to be taught by Walter Cummins. He taught I and II Corinthians that year......hmmmmm, wonder why? -->
Oh, I remember the car O.K., I just didn't connect it with the "black limo" that Blue Sunday mentioned. I thought I'd missed something.
When I left WayWorld staff in spring of '89, the engine in my wife's station wagon (a beat-up old full-size Ford) was going bad, so I had to plead with "transportation" to fix it. They couldn't find a decent engine anywhere around NK, so I suggested to Jack W. that they pull the motor out of the Lincoln (they were the same block) and let Mrs. Wierwille drive one of the Way Builder's trucks.
As Jack was on his way out the door as well, he
almost considered it. I guess he felt, WayWorld's sins notwithstanding, that the Mrs. deserved better. I would've loved to have gotten at least that lick in on the bastards, but it was not to be...
My3Cents insight is right on the money.<BR><BR>Here is what I have heard from a very, very reliable source just a few years ago.<BR><BR>VP apparently had a list of 4 or 5 names who he was considering as candidates to take his place. He showed the list to a trusted few (very few from what I was told). After a year went by, the list was whittled down to LCM & Walter. He showed these two names to these people again, and the majority of them pointed to Walter's name. VP picked LCM in spite of their opinions.
HopeRich is correct, according to a conversation I had with Donna Randall in 2002. VP had a fixation about something against Walter.
It was martindale's complete obsession with "athletes of the spirit", I believe, that initially drove a wedge between Veepee and kingokie. Veepee was quoted as bitterly mumbling under his breath, that LCM was spending his whole first year as president dancing around in tights and ignoring the more important duties of his job. It was the AOS doctrine that craiggers used as a springboard to start rewritting twi doctrine and develope his own classes...
I do remember vp being mad as anything about lcm doing AOS he said that very clearly to all at HQ. He also stated it was "off the word" I believe vp was tossed aside before AOS and was considered a "has been" or some believed a crazy old man who had lost his mind. I just sort of had that feeling. If there is any truth to POP, that was the truth.
I know that vpw was kept secluded his final years.....When LCM became president...he and the bot told the older folks and leadership....to stay away from vpw because they (the bot) needed all of his time and energy to teach them how to run the ministry.
Apparently vp was unaware of what the bot was doing ....because friends that had been kept at arms length for a few years finally made contact and found out that he was completely bewildered as to why everyone had seemingly abandoned him.
As I understand it he was lonely and felt betrayed...swept aside
"I know that vpw was kept secluded his final years.....When LCM became president...he and the bot told the older folks and leadership....to stay away from vpw because they (the bot) needed all of his time and energy to teach them how to run the ministry.
Apparently vp was unaware of what the bot was doing ....because friends that had been kept at arms length for a few years finally made contact and found out that he was completely bewildered as to why everyone had seemingly abandoned him.
As I understand it he was lonely and felt betrayed...swept aside."
Ohmigosh, I agree with Sunesis, all this crap was a long time ago....
I was a corps nobody who worked the back room and head table for years, and really paid not too much attention to the goings on. :unsure:
I worked the leaders' meetings at Emporia in 82 before the whole change of the presidency thing came down, and all I can say is, alot of people were containeded. <_<
That's the best way I know how to put it, and it's really no surprise that things feel apart shortly thereafter.
If I had a better memory or cared more, I guess I'd have more to say. But I don't. :blink:
Oh and I have to add, Craig had been coming on to me and my girlfriend i(no I'm not a lesbian, I mean my friend) n a really big way, during the meetings. He invited us to his room, made up excuses for us to help him with stuff, so that we were sorta at his disposal, and not part of the regular corps regime. It made me uncomfortable, as it did my girlfriend, We went to Pat Lynn, who ended it. Sorta.
Long story, but it was a very strange time.... :blink:
I do remember vp being mad as anything about lcm doing AOS he said that very clearly to all at HQ. He also stated it was "off the word" I believe vp was tossed aside before AOS and was considered a "has been" or some believed a crazy old man who had lost his mind. I just sort of had that feeling. If there is any truth to POP, that was the truth.
I remember our BC telling us that the Corps had been told at a meeting that VP was getting old and starting to lose his mental faculties. He says a hush fell over the room, and then the speaker added forcefully, "But he's still a lot sharper than any of YOU!" The BC was clearly shaken by the idea of our "Father in the Word" going senile. That was a weird time, even for us "leaves".
I worked on staff at HQ in 1977: nd then went WOW the summer of "78: I went wow and applied for the way corps, because he told me I should.
It had been about 6 months since I had spent any time with VP, when he came to my city. I was struck about the personal interest he took in me. I had talked with him on several occasions, and He was very sweet and fatherly to me, and never made an inappropriate move. Nothing close. He was wondeful to me, quite fatherly and kind. I adored him. Even though I had my doubts about going into the Way Corps, he encouraged me, and said he would make sure it was a worthwhile decision for my life. I believed him.
In September of 1979, I was at Emproria for the opening of the 10th Way Corps. I was very excited to be there, and was sitting in the front row for the teaching. I was excited to see VP again, and had gone up to him and greeted him before the meeting. He told me to come to the teacher's room after the teaching, and we would visit.
Something seemed wrong. VP was wobbly, and slurred his speech. He didn't seem to remember that we had a little rendevous which was ok, I didn't mind, but something didn't seem right. I was concerned about his health, and went to the corps coordinator, and expressed my concern. Linda McDuffie assuered me that VP was ok, and just feeling very tired. I didn't believe her entirely, and thought perhaps he had suffered some kind of stroke or something. I really thought something was bad wrong with him.
Later I was told, when I wouldn't let up on it, that he had been drinking and perhaps had had a little too much. I was flabbergasted. I couldn't believe that VP would show up drunk for the opening of corps night.
To this day, I don't know what the truth is. The next time I talked with him, which was only a couple of weeks later, all was forgotten. He seemed lucid and fine and his normal self. I guess I've always wondered if he was drinking that night, or struggling with health issues. It was hard to tell with him.
Sometimes he seemed ok, and other times, he didn't. I still don't know what to think, really. sometimes he knew who I was, and we sat and talked, and other times, he treated me sortof like a servant? like I was part of the furniture. Hmmm.....
I guess I'm wondering how "with it" he was with others. Sometimes he seemed to be really involved in what was happening......other times he seemed indifferent, like he wanted somedbody else to deal with it all. Just my impressions...........
I don't know what bearing this whole incident has on Craig being prez, except that sometimes VP acted differently than at other times. Sometimes he was very sure of himself and confident, and other times he didn't seem to have a clue. Go figure.
You know on one of those mad Wednesday after work dashes we used to make to Emporia. I remember while making a stop in the bathroom on the way up the back stairs and VP coming in. I had my back to the door but of course I recognized his voice as he was talking to his security on the way in. Of course he said God Bless and asked how I was but it was sort of one of those awkward moments because I did not exactly have a free hand so I just turned my head and said good evening and that I was looking forward to the evening. He was in the doorway then and said something to his security. So I just turned back around. Next thing I heard was the door close and then What the hell do you suppose they left that like that for? I had no clue what he was asking about but as with VP you kind of felt like you should have some sort of answer to his question. Since we were the only two there I turned again to see that on the way over from the door he had spotted a soap dispenser that had dripped onto the tile floor. Before I could answer he answered his own question with Well probably just to drive me crazy. Then he took a towel and wiped up the soap and folded another neatly into a square and placed it on the floor beneath the drip. I remember that he was very irritated as his people kept on opening the door to check on him as I suppose they thought he was taking too long, playing with the soap dispenser. And he said I'm alright and muttered a man can't even go to the bathroom. They said something about needing to get upstairs and he said that Craig would just sing another song it was ok. I remember thinking at the time geese it's Emporia a bathroom one door in and out what's the big deal? I mean its not like someone is going to sneak in and shoot him or anything. I also thought boy someone is going to hear about that soap dispenser tomorrow. But anyway I was impressed that he noticed that soap on his way into the bathroom and that was after his eye surgery. He seemed pretty aware that night anyway. That would have been late 84 early 85.
While on staff at HQ the year after the POP hit, I had occasion to speak with two people, specifically wives of the BOT - who told me they were involved in the voting process which included all the BOT and their wives. Also included were wives of deceased "early" Way members. They said there were several people nominated and that they discussed the merits of each as a group. The names I heard mentioned were Walter, Ralph, LCM, John Lynn and Vince.
One wife told me point blank that she had voted for Ralph. She made it clear the vote was not unanimous in LCM's favor and that they had to take several votes to break ties. She said some felt Craig was too ambitious to be a safe choice. Apparently, his desire to be the hier apparent was obvious to some from his early days in the Corps.
I still think that Walter Cummins, as well as John Lynn, Ralph Dubofski, and Gary Curtis, plus Peter Wade would have been far better choices than Craig. They might have been opened to new research biblically speaking and really make TWI an ecumenical, interdenominational organization. At least it couldn't have been any worse, could it?
I still think that Walter Cummins, as well as John Lynn, Ralph Dubofski, and Gary Curtis, plus Peter Wade would have been far better choices than Craig. They might have been opened to new research biblically speaking and really make TWI an ecumenical, interdenominational organization. At least it couldn't have been any worse, could it?
I guess that depends on how many of them were secretly involved in adultery. John Lynn has publicly said that he and most of the leaders were screwing around. So if he had been chosen, we might be in the same mess today. I think I've read that Ralph was not in on the adultery thing. And he did have a wonderful ministry and a great heart. Maybe if he had been chosen, he could have cleaned house. But with ego's like Craig's around, it would have been tough on him to lead a unified ministry. It reminds me of Jesus apostles (James and John?) arguing over who would be greatest in the Kingdom of heaven. And, as great a leader as Paul was, his acolytes in Ephesus didn't stay true to hm and his ministry either. All of Asia turned away from him before he died. I suppose it's human nature for charismatic leaders to compete and vy for power. Wretched critters, arent we?
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Sunesis
It was so long ago. But I think we all pretty much concur. Now I remember, yes, us corps did get to vote. I also about fell out of my chair too when I heard it would be LCM. I remember VP saying at a corps meeting he didn't know anyone better who could be president than Walter.
Hope, I, for some reason, thought VP was overrulled by other leadership and decided not to fight it. But, Danny has an interesting point, who knows what LCM had on VP. I had never considered that.
I do know, that it was obvious VP was later not happy and I think had some regrets about it being LCM. A member of the LCM family also told me that LCM's and DM's parents both had reservations about making LCM president. They thought he was too young to be handed all the power and money and authority over people he was getting. So, at least one of the families was not happy about it either.
I also remember, it was fairly common knowledge on staff, VP was not happy about the AOS production. He felt LCM should have been working on how to best lead and take over the ministry. Someone said VP had said he wished he had never taught AOS. He never thought LCM would "run with it" like that.
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George Aar
I don't have any specifics, hell at this late date I have few generalities, but I never thought ANYBODY else was ever really in the running for Pres.
My impression at the time was that it was a done deal. Craiggers would be the new prez.
I know Wierwille's line at the time was that the job could go to "any PFAL grad". Yeah, sure.
Everybody knew THAT was B.S.
But it seemed for years that LCM was being groomed to take over.
He was the one always traveling with VPW, always got the "plum" kinda jobs, always leading the crowd or warming up the room for VP's victorious entrance. I was certain it'd be nobody BUT LCM for years. It always seemed like everyone else around was playing second string. VP always threw the laurels to Craig.
Nobody else got that impression?
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Oakspear
George:
When I got involved in TWI, there were very few Corps in our area, even though it was huge (Long Island, NY). None of the nine or ten Branch Leaders were in the Corps, the Area Coordinator and Limb Coordinator you hardly saw, so you just didn't hear all that much about Craig. To me, the TWI "celebrities" were Ralph D, Vince F (the worldwide outreach coordinator),John Lynn, Walter, Don Wierwille & Howard Allen. Those were the big shots that you saw all the time if you didn't spend any time at Emporia or HQ.
It wasn't until my WOW year (1980-81) that I started hearing about Craig...from my interim Corps WOW family coordinator. When they announced in December 1980 (may be off a few months on the date) that Craig was to be the next Prez, I was pretty surprised. "Who the f*** is Craig Martindale?"
Maybe you just ran in more elite circles than i did George
:D-->
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Tom Strange
I could've sworn that we were "told" either in our first year in rez, or on our interim year, that LCM was "on deck" for the presidency... that's my memory of it... though I wouldn't ask you all to rely on my memory too much these days!
:D--> As to "how he got there...", I don't know...
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alfakat
Let us not forget that vic was famous for saying different things to different groups...
I was in WA state at the time and R Feese, the limb and region guy, went back for the "placement" meetings in Feb. '81. When he got back, he did a kork meeting and gave us a a fairly detailed report on what came down. He said that vic told them his thoughts but gave the supposed "final" decision to the region, campus and prez cab guys(what, 24,25 people at most?) and said to them "He will be your prez, you decide--"
So they tossed it around and the consensus was eventually that lcm was the best guy to be the "public face" kida guy the prez needed to be or somesuch reason...
Personally, at various times vic was real high on J Townsend and Del Duncan to be the prez and I know Walter was always there as the backup plan. I just think vic finally decided most of these guys, kork grads for the most part, would not follow Walter like they would one of their own...
Oh, and finally, after these guys voted and all, vic gives 'em the "are you gonna tear this thing apart after I die or are you gonna follow "Joshua" craggggg into the next phase" or whatever he called it... Feese said that really buzzkilled the party....
:D--> 
--> 
:P--> 
-->
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Watered Garden
Advanced Class 79 and the Lincoln Town Car:
George, the ADV Cl 1979 was held in teh summer at Ohio University in Athens, Ohio. It was two weeks long. The Saturday in the middle was open to all and it was called "Specially Mine in '79". I think it was that day that in VPW's absence, it was made known to us all that he liked this Lincoln Town car ahe had seen at a lot somewhere in NW Ohio. I think it was a couple years old, but as Blue Sunday said it was silver. So everybody chipped in and they bought it for him. It actually outlived him, as I recall seeing it parked behind the house or barn, and it had vanity plates reading VPW. Of course a phonetic of my name is on my plate so I'll not criticize!
:o--> But that is the best of my recollection.
That was also the time when it was revealed to all us underlings that he didn't like garlic.
what a class!!! What revelation!!!
;)-->
WG
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Radar OReilly
I remember it along the lines that Alfakat does.
Walter Cummins was VPWs first choice, but all the "heavy revvies" felt that Walter didn't have the personality to hold twi together after VPW died. They felt that since LCM had been the corps coordinator forever that he would have the loyalty and support of the corps household. Everybody felt that LCM DID NOT HAVE THE COMMAND of the bible that Walter did so they "compromised."
LCM was to be the "public voice and face
(forehead?) of twi, but he was NOT going to be the one teaching corps night to the corps, that was to be Walter Cummins domain. As I remember it, VPW did the opening night(s) of the corps in September of 1982, then corps nite was suspended (because all of the in residence corps went to hq to get ready for the innauguration.)
Sometime in October 1982, when Corps nites officially resumed, the prez of twi was LCM, he opened corps nite, etc, and then turned the teachings over to be taught by Walter Cummins. He taught I and II Corinthians that year......hmmmmm, wonder why?
-->
Radar
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George Aar
Watered Garden,
Oh, I remember the car O.K., I just didn't connect it with the "black limo" that Blue Sunday mentioned. I thought I'd missed something.
When I left WayWorld staff in spring of '89, the engine in my wife's station wagon (a beat-up old full-size Ford) was going bad, so I had to plead with "transportation" to fix it. They couldn't find a decent engine anywhere around NK, so I suggested to Jack W. that they pull the motor out of the Lincoln (they were the same block) and let Mrs. Wierwille drive one of the Way Builder's trucks.
As Jack was on his way out the door as well, he
almost considered it. I guess he felt, WayWorld's sins notwithstanding, that the Mrs. deserved better. I would've loved to have gotten at least that lick in on the bastards, but it was not to be...
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TheBishop
HopeRich is correct, according to a conversation I had with Donna Randall in 2002. VP had a fixation about something against Walter.
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justloafing
I do remember vp being mad as anything about lcm doing AOS he said that very clearly to all at HQ. He also stated it was "off the word" I believe vp was tossed aside before AOS and was considered a "has been" or some believed a crazy old man who had lost his mind. I just sort of had that feeling. If there is any truth to POP, that was the truth.
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rascal
I know that vpw was kept secluded his final years.....When LCM became president...he and the bot told the older folks and leadership....to stay away from vpw because they (the bot) needed all of his time and energy to teach them how to run the ministry.
Apparently vp was unaware of what the bot was doing ....because friends that had been kept at arms length for a few years finally made contact and found out that he was completely bewildered as to why everyone had seemingly abandoned him.
As I understand it he was lonely and felt betrayed...swept aside
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WordWolf
"I know that vpw was kept secluded his final years.....When LCM became president...he and the bot told the older folks and leadership....to stay away from vpw because they (the bot) needed all of his time and energy to teach them how to run the ministry.
Apparently vp was unaware of what the bot was doing ....because friends that had been kept at arms length for a few years finally made contact and found out that he was completely bewildered as to why everyone had seemingly abandoned him.
As I understand it he was lonely and felt betrayed...swept aside."
=========
Of course,
being El Jefe Grande,
he couldn't be bothered to pick up a phone,
or put pen to paper and find a stamp,
and contact someone seeming distant.
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ex10
Ohmigosh, I agree with Sunesis, all this crap was a long time ago....
I was a corps nobody who worked the back room and head table for years, and really paid not too much attention to the goings on. :unsure:
I worked the leaders' meetings at Emporia in 82 before the whole change of the presidency thing came down, and all I can say is, alot of people were containeded. <_<
That's the best way I know how to put it, and it's really no surprise that things feel apart shortly thereafter.
If I had a better memory or cared more, I guess I'd have more to say. But I don't. :blink:
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ex10
Oh and I have to add, Craig had been coming on to me and my girlfriend i(no I'm not a lesbian, I mean my friend) n a really big way, during the meetings. He invited us to his room, made up excuses for us to help him with stuff, so that we were sorta at his disposal, and not part of the regular corps regime. It made me uncomfortable, as it did my girlfriend, We went to Pat Lynn, who ended it. Sorta.
Long story, but it was a very strange time.... :blink:
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Rejoice
Sorta?? Like not exactly?
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ex10
Hmmm, yeah.
Like the hits still kept coming.....til the corps wedding. <_<
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Jbarrax
I remember our BC telling us that the Corps had been told at a meeting that VP was getting old and starting to lose his mental faculties. He says a hush fell over the room, and then the speaker added forcefully, "But he's still a lot sharper than any of YOU!" The BC was clearly shaken by the idea of our "Father in the Word" going senile. That was a weird time, even for us "leaves".
Peace
JerryB
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ex10
I worked on staff at HQ in 1977: nd then went WOW the summer of "78: I went wow and applied for the way corps, because he told me I should.
It had been about 6 months since I had spent any time with VP, when he came to my city. I was struck about the personal interest he took in me. I had talked with him on several occasions, and He was very sweet and fatherly to me, and never made an inappropriate move. Nothing close. He was wondeful to me, quite fatherly and kind. I adored him. Even though I had my doubts about going into the Way Corps, he encouraged me, and said he would make sure it was a worthwhile decision for my life. I believed him.
In September of 1979, I was at Emproria for the opening of the 10th Way Corps. I was very excited to be there, and was sitting in the front row for the teaching. I was excited to see VP again, and had gone up to him and greeted him before the meeting. He told me to come to the teacher's room after the teaching, and we would visit.
Something seemed wrong. VP was wobbly, and slurred his speech. He didn't seem to remember that we had a little rendevous which was ok, I didn't mind, but something didn't seem right. I was concerned about his health, and went to the corps coordinator, and expressed my concern. Linda McDuffie assuered me that VP was ok, and just feeling very tired. I didn't believe her entirely, and thought perhaps he had suffered some kind of stroke or something. I really thought something was bad wrong with him.
Later I was told, when I wouldn't let up on it, that he had been drinking and perhaps had had a little too much. I was flabbergasted. I couldn't believe that VP would show up drunk for the opening of corps night.
To this day, I don't know what the truth is. The next time I talked with him, which was only a couple of weeks later, all was forgotten. He seemed lucid and fine and his normal self. I guess I've always wondered if he was drinking that night, or struggling with health issues. It was hard to tell with him.
Sometimes he seemed ok, and other times, he didn't. I still don't know what to think, really. sometimes he knew who I was, and we sat and talked, and other times, he treated me sortof like a servant? like I was part of the furniture. Hmmm.....
I guess I'm wondering how "with it" he was with others. Sometimes he seemed to be really involved in what was happening......other times he seemed indifferent, like he wanted somedbody else to deal with it all. Just my impressions...........
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ex10
I don't know what bearing this whole incident has on Craig being prez, except that sometimes VP acted differently than at other times. Sometimes he was very sure of himself and confident, and other times he didn't seem to have a clue. Go figure.
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WhiteDove
Hey Ex
You know on one of those mad Wednesday after work dashes we used to make to Emporia. I remember while making a stop in the bathroom on the way up the back stairs and VP coming in. I had my back to the door but of course I recognized his voice as he was talking to his security on the way in. Of course he said God Bless and asked how I was but it was sort of one of those awkward moments because I did not exactly have a free hand so I just turned my head and said good evening and that I was looking forward to the evening. He was in the doorway then and said something to his security. So I just turned back around. Next thing I heard was the door close and then What the hell do you suppose they left that like that for? I had no clue what he was asking about but as with VP you kind of felt like you should have some sort of answer to his question. Since we were the only two there I turned again to see that on the way over from the door he had spotted a soap dispenser that had dripped onto the tile floor. Before I could answer he answered his own question with Well probably just to drive me crazy. Then he took a towel and wiped up the soap and folded another neatly into a square and placed it on the floor beneath the drip. I remember that he was very irritated as his people kept on opening the door to check on him as I suppose they thought he was taking too long, playing with the soap dispenser. And he said I'm alright and muttered a man can't even go to the bathroom. They said something about needing to get upstairs and he said that Craig would just sing another song it was ok. I remember thinking at the time geese it's Emporia a bathroom one door in and out what's the big deal? I mean its not like someone is going to sneak in and shoot him or anything. I also thought boy someone is going to hear about that soap dispenser tomorrow. But anyway I was impressed that he noticed that soap on his way into the bathroom and that was after his eye surgery. He seemed pretty aware that night anyway. That would have been late 84 early 85.
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Mercedes Benz
While on staff at HQ the year after the POP hit, I had occasion to speak with two people, specifically wives of the BOT - who told me they were involved in the voting process which included all the BOT and their wives. Also included were wives of deceased "early" Way members. They said there were several people nominated and that they discussed the merits of each as a group. The names I heard mentioned were Walter, Ralph, LCM, John Lynn and Vince.
One wife told me point blank that she had voted for Ralph. She made it clear the vote was not unanimous in LCM's favor and that they had to take several votes to break ties. She said some felt Craig was too ambitious to be a safe choice. Apparently, his desire to be the hier apparent was obvious to some from his early days in the Corps.
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Oakspear
I heard that he found the skunk pelt in a box of cracker jacks...and the rest is history
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I still think that Walter Cummins, as well as John Lynn, Ralph Dubofski, and Gary Curtis, plus Peter Wade would have been far better choices than Craig. They might have been opened to new research biblically speaking and really make TWI an ecumenical, interdenominational organization. At least it couldn't have been any worse, could it?
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Jbarrax
I guess that depends on how many of them were secretly involved in adultery. John Lynn has publicly said that he and most of the leaders were screwing around. So if he had been chosen, we might be in the same mess today. I think I've read that Ralph was not in on the adultery thing. And he did have a wonderful ministry and a great heart. Maybe if he had been chosen, he could have cleaned house. But with ego's like Craig's around, it would have been tough on him to lead a unified ministry. It reminds me of Jesus apostles (James and John?) arguing over who would be greatest in the Kingdom of heaven. And, as great a leader as Paul was, his acolytes in Ephesus didn't stay true to hm and his ministry either. All of Asia turned away from him before he died. I suppose it's human nature for charismatic leaders to compete and vy for power. Wretched critters, arent we?
Peace
JerryB
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