The reason I think something must be wrong is because I have actualy cared deeply what these "goofs" say. and been hurt for like my entire life.
I surprisly do not blame them but Im angry at the idea we as people who claim to believe in God can actualy be guilty of this in His sons name. it just doesnt seem right or the way jesus inteneded ofr us to live together at all . In a sense those who organize the mess get the most of my angry feeling because I have seen it happen more than the love and forgivnes Jesus asks us to live with .
Dmiller
if you have been healed of something and feel thankful give God the glory and know it was by the very stripes of Jesus christ not CES that made it happen for ya! please.
if you have been healed of something and feel thankful give God the glory and know it was by the very stripes of Jesus christ not CES that made it happen for ya! please. (bold my emphasis)
From my own perspective, it wasnt until I had completely forgot about the damage a org had done to me that i really began to feel healthy again, thats the only reason i mentioned it to yah.
Very well stated, sky4it. Forgetfulness can stall healing for years, if not forever.
quote:But those truths were part of the cover story, not part of Wierwille's heart. The true goal of "Word (PFAL - Wierwille's plagiarized rehashings) Over the World" was to funnel ever increasing amounts of money into the treasury.
Steve Lortz, this is where we part company.
How in the world do you know it wasn't Wierwille's heart and desire to have the word over the world? To desire that for God to be glorified, and man to be blessed?
"How in the world do you know it wasn't Wierwille's heart and desire to have the word over the world? To desire that for God to be glorified, and man to be blessed?"
How do you know that it WAS?
"I find your presumptuousness to be astounding."
And the same couldn't be said about YOU? You're the one PRESUMING that, despite the mountains of evidence, testimony, documents, and personal revelations given, that, no, Herr Vierville was exactly who he said he was.
What was it that was soooo compelling about VPW's schtick that you can't seem to shake off the starry-eyed adoration of such an obvious, morally bankrupt, conman?
Well, I'm sure I've said this before, but I'll say it again here. At least CES has never told me I would be a "greasespot by midnight" if I didn't join up with them and give them some sort of fidelity or allegiance. Sure, I don't agree on everything John Lynn says and teaches, and I don't try to browbeat him to subscribe to what I think the truth ought to be. But I'll take John over the mainstream preachers (especially those hateful HFBD preachers) anyday.
quote: He just wants to serve you. He just wants to educate you.
Those certainly are noble qualities to find in anyone, but it still boils down to what you are willing to do to educate yourself. It has been said experience is the best teacher. Sometimes you pay (and you pay dearly) for your education, but one still educates themselves regardless. The only problem is people aren't happy with what their education cost them, and all they want to do is complain to you or to someone else about it.
The biggest bunch of B.S. you will ever hear is someone telling you what they believe was in VPW's (or any other leader who was involved in TWI) heart. The only way one knows what is anyone's heart is: "...out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Matthew 12:34-37.
VPW's been dead almost 20 years, and it is amazing there are plenty of people still around putting "their own words" in a dead man's mouth, but claiming they are his. Even if you lived around VPW everyday of your life you still wouldn't have a clue what was in his heart or the heart of anybody else for that matter. I only met the man on one or two occassions myself, and I certainly know VPW was not someone who went around blabbing everything that was in his heart to everybody around him.
All the so called mountains of testimonies, personal revelations are just that: personal opinions - regardless if you're a VPW admirer or not. You would be a complete idiot if you believed everything you heard about VPW from a VPW antagonist as well as VPW apoligist.
The only problem you keep running into is people who have no objectivity left anymore (it is mostly their own private opinion) and it only goes to prove just how uneducated some people really are.
quote:And the same couldn't be said about YOU? You're the one PRESUMING that, despite the mountains of evidence, testimony, documents, and personal revelations given, that, no, Herr Vierville was exactly who he said he was.
George, your point is a fair one. I can't claim and don't want to presume what was in Wierwille's heart. We see the manifestation of both good and evil works. I can speculate, and say there was both good and evil in his heart, but nobody really knows everything for sure. So I'll defer by saying "I don't know", which is true.
Steve Lortz said:
quote:I think Wierwille larded a lot of truth into his cover story, and God worked with people who believed those truths. That's why so many people, myself included, DID get blessed. But those truths were part of the cover story, not part of Wierwille's heart. ...
God worked with people who believed those truths, yet God didn't work with Wierwille? He also believed those truths. I think Wierwille was involved with it as well.
Chuck you may have scared off more possible CES coverts just by your endorsement. ;)-->
OM,
quote: This seems to be at the heart of the disagreement. But I fall on the side of TWI-1 being a genuine, godly ministry. It did have its ungodly elements, people still do sin, yes; but lots of folks got born again, lots of folks learned more about God that made some sense, and folks got blessed along the way. That's why we hung around so long. TWI-1's open agenda was the real godly thing. It's what some did in secret that was the most hurtful.
I know way too many people who would say this about the current state of twi.
Lindy, in some cases, some of those things may apply. I can't say they don't, can you? If folks are there and say they are satisfied and happy with it, geeze, that's their experience and testimony. It's their life.
But, many times people in controling situations can't see the forest thru the trees. It isn't untill they reach a clearing that they can turn around, take a step back and realise how lost they were.
It is in that clearing where many realise that they didn't really know what happiness and satisfaction actually feels like.
The words I posted are , I presume the direct quote of VP. They are not therefore Gods words.
The Comment:
A: VP said:
1) either there's no interpretation or
2) the Bible interprets itself.
This quote is an either or situation. You get to pick one and only one. Everyone agreed that number one is not possible, therefore you must pick number 2. I say that's not true. I do not disagree that #2 isn't helpful. (#2 is simply the obvious)
All I say is that #2 isn't the only situation for interpretation, that there is more much more.
It interprets in other ways as well such as:
1) The Holy Ghost and God and Jesus I Cor 2:13, II Corinth 3:6
2) ongoing application (inconsistencies sorted through application) Gal 6:2 ,6:5 example
3) itself as above (the obvious but not only itself) ie( Adultry is sin)
4) some is unrevealed or hidden Rev 2:17
5) historical stuff (as invisible Dan mentioned above which I am horrible at.)
6) Typology of Old Test stuff - (the tabernacle are figures of the true) Heb 9:9,24
7) Seeking (The Kingdom of God Matt 6:33, His Face (The Lord God)Psalm 27:8 , II Cor 3:18)
etc.
Neither did I one thing that VP did not do himself. His view was that it is only #2. I say that it is not. The things I listed prove logically that it is not (only number 2) Neither do no. 1,2,4,5,6,7 fit into number # 2 of the VP comment that you quoted. Why? because they are from other sources than the Bible "itself." Therefore I have proved mathematically and with certainty this statement quoted is incorrect or an error.
I agree therefore that you can learn some things from "the Bible itself" just not all things from the Bible "itself".
B: The clincher: sincerity is no guarantee for truth. So now your really stuck because if you believe A above you have no way out. This statement made me feel no matter how hard I tried and how sincere I was , it may not work out for me at all.
C: But just in case you try: preach the word not like since the first century.
With respect to the Doctor himself: I don't know if the man was ever sincere about what he was doing or not. Sufficient to say, if he was selling vacuum cleaners or cars, I'd grab on to my wallet and run for life.
I have been a christian for over forty year working out my salvation with the Lord Jesus christ.
ok sky I read your post and I hear you saying you think vpw locked into just the bible as the answers concerning spiritual answers in life.
I do not agree in fact it was in TWI I was able to understand the difference between what church taught and a spirit filled life.
we walk with a Lord who is alive who speaks to us on a minute by minute base in life..
I do not agree that is what I learned in pfal or in twi sky that is why I can not comment. he wrote that in the pfal class but for the most part if you continue on in the teaching a spirit filled walk with many of the ideas you have were also included.
I think it is a personal spirt that works with what each individual can learn and how for example I have read the bible and understood it to mean something in my life on a very comforting and personal level but another reading the same chapter and verse may not get that because it was not feeding their soul at that time. It is food. I think vpw opened up this key to me very well that the bible is a base line of understanding spirtual matter in life and we each can go as far as we desire with it witha Lord that teaches and loves each one where they are at.
Truth and spirit formly CES believes heavy in personal prophecy
I do not think God tells the crowd what He needs me to know in my life either. they have practice session where people speak and practice telling one another what God told them for another .
no I do not go for that either.
FYI I do not do bible wars your going to have to look at Raf or John lynn for those games in the brain with people.
I can be comfortable with what CEs generated because it is in my comfort zone I do not have the say of what is right or wrong when it comes to doctrine and frankly I think it is dangerous territory.
Also consider not everyone had the scripture available to them , few could read during the dark ages for example, and the masses had to rely on the church to tell them what was considered holy or a king. Sky I think if you take some time to study our history as Gods chosen you will find a rich history of a fight to find doctrine and be thankful we live in the day we do , God provides for His people always.
Luthern was a guy who thought he read something very different from what the church was stating as rule his life story is an interesting idea of one man willing to go the mile for what he felt was direct revelation from God regardless of what the bible was saying at the time to the people.
history will help you confirm your position better than I can Sky.
I am not looking for your affirmation. I also agree with your post. I suppose that one should never engage another in doctrinal dispositions, with one exception, TWI started the doctinal war with its preassumed superiority position years ago. Therefore I think it is good subject material.
With respect to the TWI experience, It did bring the Bible as a plumbline for truth, but thats really not a whole lot different than others were doing either. It was beneficial too me in so much as it kept my eyes on the teachings in the holy scriptures and less on the volumous books.
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mj412
The reason I think something must be wrong is because I have actualy cared deeply what these "goofs" say. and been hurt for like my entire life.
I surprisly do not blame them but Im angry at the idea we as people who claim to believe in God can actualy be guilty of this in His sons name. it just doesnt seem right or the way jesus inteneded ofr us to live together at all . In a sense those who organize the mess get the most of my angry feeling because I have seen it happen more than the love and forgivnes Jesus asks us to live with .
Dmiller
if you have been healed of something and feel thankful give God the glory and know it was by the very stripes of Jesus christ not CES that made it happen for ya! please.
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dmiller
Never have. Never will.
:)-->
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satori001
Very well stated, sky4it. Forgetfulness can stall healing for years, if not forever.
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oldiesman
Steve Lortz, this is where we part company.
How in the world do you know it wasn't Wierwille's heart and desire to have the word over the world? To desire that for God to be glorified, and man to be blessed?
I find your presumptuousness to be astounding.
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George Aar
OM,
"How in the world do you know it wasn't Wierwille's heart and desire to have the word over the world? To desire that for God to be glorified, and man to be blessed?"
How do you know that it WAS?
"I find your presumptuousness to be astounding."
And the same couldn't be said about YOU? You're the one PRESUMING that, despite the mountains of evidence, testimony, documents, and personal revelations given, that, no, Herr Vierville was exactly who he said he was.
What was it that was soooo compelling about VPW's schtick that you can't seem to shake off the starry-eyed adoration of such an obvious, morally bankrupt, conman?
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CKnapp3
Well, I'm sure I've said this before, but I'll say it again here. At least CES has never told me I would be a "greasespot by midnight" if I didn't join up with them and give them some sort of fidelity or allegiance. Sure, I don't agree on everything John Lynn says and teaches, and I don't try to browbeat him to subscribe to what I think the truth ought to be. But I'll take John over the mainstream preachers (especially those hateful HFBD preachers) anyday.
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What The Hay
Those certainly are noble qualities to find in anyone, but it still boils down to what you are willing to do to educate yourself. It has been said experience is the best teacher. Sometimes you pay (and you pay dearly) for your education, but one still educates themselves regardless. The only problem is people aren't happy with what their education cost them, and all they want to do is complain to you or to someone else about it.
The biggest bunch of B.S. you will ever hear is someone telling you what they believe was in VPW's (or any other leader who was involved in TWI) heart. The only way one knows what is anyone's heart is: "...out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Matthew 12:34-37.
VPW's been dead almost 20 years, and it is amazing there are plenty of people still around putting "their own words" in a dead man's mouth, but claiming they are his. Even if you lived around VPW everyday of your life you still wouldn't have a clue what was in his heart or the heart of anybody else for that matter. I only met the man on one or two occassions myself, and I certainly know VPW was not someone who went around blabbing everything that was in his heart to everybody around him.
All the so called mountains of testimonies, personal revelations are just that: personal opinions - regardless if you're a VPW admirer or not. You would be a complete idiot if you believed everything you heard about VPW from a VPW antagonist as well as VPW apoligist.
The only problem you keep running into is people who have no objectivity left anymore (it is mostly their own private opinion) and it only goes to prove just how uneducated some people really are.
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oldiesman
Steve Lortz said:
God worked with people who believed those truths, yet God didn't work with Wierwille? He also believed those truths. I think Wierwille was involved with it as well.
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lindyhopper
Chuck you may have scared off more possible CES coverts just by your endorsement.
;)-->
OM,
I know way too many people who would say this about the current state of twi.
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oldiesman
Lindy, in some cases, some of those things may apply. I can't say they don't, can you? If folks are there and say they are satisfied and happy with it, geeze, that's their experience and testimony. It's their life.
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lindyhopper
Of course it is, OM.
But, many times people in controling situations can't see the forest thru the trees. It isn't untill they reach a clearing that they can turn around, take a step back and realise how lost they were.
It is in that clearing where many realise that they didn't really know what happiness and satisfaction actually feels like.
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sky4it
satori and mj412:
The words I posted are , I presume the direct quote of VP. They are not therefore Gods words.
The Comment:
A: VP said:
1) either there's no interpretation or
2) the Bible interprets itself.
This quote is an either or situation. You get to pick one and only one. Everyone agreed that number one is not possible, therefore you must pick number 2. I say that's not true. I do not disagree that #2 isn't helpful. (#2 is simply the obvious)
All I say is that #2 isn't the only situation for interpretation, that there is more much more.
It interprets in other ways as well such as:
1) The Holy Ghost and God and Jesus I Cor 2:13, II Corinth 3:6
2) ongoing application (inconsistencies sorted through application) Gal 6:2 ,6:5 example
3) itself as above (the obvious but not only itself) ie( Adultry is sin)
4) some is unrevealed or hidden Rev 2:17
5) historical stuff (as invisible Dan mentioned above which I am horrible at.)
6) Typology of Old Test stuff - (the tabernacle are figures of the true) Heb 9:9,24
7) Seeking (The Kingdom of God Matt 6:33, His Face (The Lord God)Psalm 27:8 , II Cor 3:18)
etc.
Neither did I one thing that VP did not do himself. His view was that it is only #2. I say that it is not. The things I listed prove logically that it is not (only number 2) Neither do no. 1,2,4,5,6,7 fit into number # 2 of the VP comment that you quoted. Why? because they are from other sources than the Bible "itself." Therefore I have proved mathematically and with certainty this statement quoted is incorrect or an error.
I agree therefore that you can learn some things from "the Bible itself" just not all things from the Bible "itself".
B: The clincher: sincerity is no guarantee for truth. So now your really stuck because if you believe A above you have no way out. This statement made me feel no matter how hard I tried and how sincere I was , it may not work out for me at all.
C: But just in case you try: preach the word not like since the first century.
With respect to the Doctor himself: I don't know if the man was ever sincere about what he was doing or not. Sufficient to say, if he was selling vacuum cleaners or cars, I'd grab on to my wallet and run for life.
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mj412
I have been a christian for over forty year working out my salvation with the Lord Jesus christ.
ok sky I read your post and I hear you saying you think vpw locked into just the bible as the answers concerning spiritual answers in life.
I do not agree in fact it was in TWI I was able to understand the difference between what church taught and a spirit filled life.
we walk with a Lord who is alive who speaks to us on a minute by minute base in life..
I do not agree that is what I learned in pfal or in twi sky that is why I can not comment. he wrote that in the pfal class but for the most part if you continue on in the teaching a spirit filled walk with many of the ideas you have were also included.
I think it is a personal spirt that works with what each individual can learn and how for example I have read the bible and understood it to mean something in my life on a very comforting and personal level but another reading the same chapter and verse may not get that because it was not feeding their soul at that time. It is food. I think vpw opened up this key to me very well that the bible is a base line of understanding spirtual matter in life and we each can go as far as we desire with it witha Lord that teaches and loves each one where they are at.
Truth and spirit formly CES believes heavy in personal prophecy
I do not think God tells the crowd what He needs me to know in my life either. they have practice session where people speak and practice telling one another what God told them for another .
no I do not go for that either.
FYI I do not do bible wars your going to have to look at Raf or John lynn for those games in the brain with people.
I can be comfortable with what CEs generated because it is in my comfort zone I do not have the say of what is right or wrong when it comes to doctrine and frankly I think it is dangerous territory.
Also consider not everyone had the scripture available to them , few could read during the dark ages for example, and the masses had to rely on the church to tell them what was considered holy or a king. Sky I think if you take some time to study our history as Gods chosen you will find a rich history of a fight to find doctrine and be thankful we live in the day we do , God provides for His people always.
Luthern was a guy who thought he read something very different from what the church was stating as rule his life story is an interesting idea of one man willing to go the mile for what he felt was direct revelation from God regardless of what the bible was saying at the time to the people.
history will help you confirm your position better than I can Sky.
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sky4it
MJ:
I am not looking for your affirmation. I also agree with your post. I suppose that one should never engage another in doctrinal dispositions, with one exception, TWI started the doctinal war with its preassumed superiority position years ago. Therefore I think it is good subject material.
With respect to the TWI experience, It did bring the Bible as a plumbline for truth, but thats really not a whole lot different than others were doing either. It was beneficial too me in so much as it kept my eyes on the teachings in the holy scriptures and less on the volumous books.
Any way MJ, I like your post and God Bless.
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