A)How many multi-state organizations have formed (at least 1 regular local meeting/group in at least 3 states-or 2 if there's multiple meetings locally) are there? Who started them and runs them now? How big are they?
B)How many multi-state organizations have closed down since 1989?
C) How many state wide organizations have formed?
(Multiple members and meetings across more than 20% of a state, with
members only in that state?) Who started them and runs them now?
How big are they?
D) How many local, one-or two neighborhood, or one-household-sized
Personally, I think some of that stuff is like super glue, it a rascal to get the stuff off. The key word your all using is some, the problem is what is that some exactly? The other difficulty is that every group has a fearless leader and who knows where there head is at? but God Bless em if there getting there lives in working order. Personally, its nice to throw the lifelines around this web site and hope it helps.
With respect to that believing = recieving thing, what difference does it make wether you believe it or not? I mean it either works or it doesn't right? If it aint working by now maybe thats one yah wanna toss.
The bigger issue with me was always not what they had, but what they apparently didn't want. I really dont have any recollection of anyone telling me about the cross of Christ and applying that to the old man. Particularily Paul said , at times thats the only thing he wanted to preach was this, For I determined to know nothing amoung you save Jesus Christ and him crucified." I Corinthians 2:2 I certainly thought they didn't wanna discuss it much either, because it might take away something that they wanted to do today. In retrospect, that might of been a good thing eh?
It’s been interesting to follow this thread. The shift has gone from TWI offshoots to believing = receiving. I’m not surprised as this has become a very convoluted subject. I coordinate a group that might be called an offshoot., but I don’t worship VPW. We do home fellowships, but I have nothing against a building. I teach believing and receiving, but not believing = receiving because, as one person stated, it is flawed. The way we receive from God what he has promised is to believe Him, but we cannot believe to receive a car or specific job, unless God has specifically promised us that specific job or car. We believe God’s promises, not in order receive things.
Back to subject… there are so many different “offshoots” that it would be hard to count them. My guess is that the number is way over the 400 or so mentioned earlier. But I think many of them would be offended to be called an “offshoot.” I know I am, but I have to admit that most of the people who come are ex-twi – so since the shoe fits I guess we have to wear it. Here would be my advice for avoiding trouble with offshoots.
If they use quotes from VPW instead of scripture – Run
If they try to control your life – Run
If they have to sell you something, or ask that you take a class before you can be a part of them or contribute to them – Run (note, I’m not saying they don’t have classes, but you should never be looked down on for not taking them)
If they charge for their classes, be suspicious and prepared to run
If they say they have a corner on the truth, or that TWI used to – run
If they spend their time downgrading other groups and talking about how stupid they are or how much better they are than these other groups – Run.
If they are unwilling to bring in teachers, books or idea from outside their group or from groups that were also ex-twi – run.
This is longer than I would have liked, but I only drop in once in a while and I guess it bottles up inside me.
If they say they have a corner on the truth, or that TWI used to – run
I think that says a lot. It also says you have faith. Read John Lynn's letter and the comment about "the first century thing."
Can you say run to that?
In my mind, the former leadership in TWI, would be better served and serve others for apologizing for preaching that "1st century church bunk.", then starting new groups and re-inventing Frankenstien.
I literally got nauseated reading that John Lynn letter, literally.
It's a slow day at work so I thought I’d drop in to see if their was a response to my post.
I assume you are referring to the phrase “as it has not been taught since the first century.” This would be a phrase that I would say “run” to, in this case, because it implies “we have or had truth that others do not.”
If the person used the same phrase and said, “God is calling His people back. Churches around the world are rediscovering God’s grace and mercy, and throughout all of Churches of the world, the word is being taught as it has not been taught since the first century.” I would not say run, because I believe that this is happening through out the world and it has been going on for longer than TWI has been in existence and it involves all Christians, not any one group.
That really wasnt my point. TWI limited that phrase to the exclusion of itself. I dont ever recall them saying this is going on before we got here, do you? Why then are you bringing that up?
Sky4it, I'm sorry if my answer bothered you. I thought that the first part of my answer applied to what you were asking. Yes the TWI did apply this statment to imply that the they had a corner on the word. John Lynns letter is worded to do the same. The last part of my answer was to show a context that that phrase might be approprate, and I have to confess, I was also "preaching" a bit. TWI destroyed the concept of the one body in Christ. Something that is very, very important from what I read in Ephesian and it is a concept that is very dear to my heart, I try to share it with people in someway as much as I can, and TWI's "as it has not been taught since the first century did much to destroy the one body. That is why I mentioned the second part. Please forgive me if my "preaching" offended or bothered you.
Anyway a direct simple answer to your question about the use "as it has not be taught since the first century." as it is stated in Johns letter would mean run and it fact this particular doctrine to me means "Run as fast as you can."
No problem, I wasnt offended at all. I just would never myself be an apologist for VPW. I am not saying you did that either. :)-->
Anyways, so good to hear some folks like you are really thriving in the Lord. I guess I always thought there would be those that would like you. Thank you so much for your comments.
Some issues are being mentioned that I had almost forgotten about since some of these doctrines I shed twenty years ago.
One of my first concerns about way doctrine in 78 and 79 was about the Cross.
To put it as succinctly as I can, the cross of our Lord Jesus, and his passion were greatly under-explained to us in twi.
My perception was and still is: Twi leadership was clueless about how to really be transfomed by the renewing of the mind.
The particular way VPW explained the mystery and it's refrences in the first epistle of Corinthians began to look inaccurate to me.
As I read I Cor. it appeared that the essence of our new life in Christ, the mystery of our life together as an assembly and as a body and ahead, was centered in and on the cross.
I read that even Chrisrians would experience pain and suffering and humiliation as they shared the cross and it did it's work on their old man.
I saw the cross as the end of the old nature, but the old man being carried forward in my behavior as one who was still functioning as aslave to sin.
But Corinthians ( s well as just about every other epistle) says that we are not our own we arebought with a price. The Lord Jesus bought us by going to the cross.
He purchased our lives from sin, and as we are continuing in his word, webecome his disciples, we learn his truth, and that truth makes us free.
He ransomed us. He Freed us. He is our liberator.
My perception was and still is: Twi leadership was clueless about the old man and the new man.
My perception was and still is: Twi leadership was clueless in teaching that the old "sin nature" (Note: I did nor say "old man") continued exist in our lives and the rest of our lives is a struggle between a sin nature and a righteous nature.
I have spent a lot of time reading about this "sin nature" thing and I asked to do a presentation to a CES gathering years ago but for one reason or another I was not asked to teach.
If the reason I was turned down was only a schdule or time-slotting issue I believe I
would have been given another opportunity.
But, it was made clear to me that my understanding on the two-natures thing was in contradiction to CES.
So even though they had just recently been publshing "Dialogue". They didn't want real dialogue on doctrine, just their own monologue.
TWI did not teach it's people how to walk in the righteosness of their Lord Jesus.
TWI taught a "christianized" version of Pharasaism. A pseudo-spiritual legalism that resulted in license.
The very informative and liberating text from Romans, "The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."
TWI replaced the Lordship of Jesus with a fellowship of seekers following a bunch of modern-day pharisees with anendless list of qualifications for all "believers" to apply themselves toward.
I dont know that discussing old way doctrine is beneficial at all. You and I left at a time long long ago. Please do stick around. It would be nice to talk to others about our living Lord Jesus. :)-->
Do you know of any other web sites that are good to such effect? The thing I like about ex-way people is that the bible was read upside down in so many ways, then when you talk topically it comes pretty easy for them. It also seems some of the folks have really matured. One fellow uses historical things to paint some really good pictures which are very insightful (Invisible Dan). So far ive had some fun. It kinda had the same effect on me when i found this web site, I just wanted to talk a big blue streak and I think i really did.
It seems to me that these people have done their best to allow the Holy Spirit to scatter them abroad, and they are doing their utmost for His highest in the place where they are called, doing their best to keep living and teaching as the Holy Spirit gives them utterance.
Another couple I know and love.
Kevin Porter -- He's got a ministry to Africa,"Lightbearers," out of Salem Oregon.
ACF - Association of Christian Fellowships, Frank and Pat Tulak, out of San Diego CA.
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oldiesman
or else maybe it's the coffee and cookies?
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WordWolf
A)How many multi-state organizations have formed (at least 1 regular local meeting/group in at least 3 states-or 2 if there's multiple meetings locally) are there? Who started them and runs them now? How big are they?
B)How many multi-state organizations have closed down since 1989?
C) How many state wide organizations have formed?
(Multiple members and meetings across more than 20% of a state, with
members only in that state?) Who started them and runs them now?
How big are they?
D) How many local, one-or two neighborhood, or one-household-sized
organizations currently meet in someone's home?
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sky4it
Personally, I think some of that stuff is like super glue, it a rascal to get the stuff off. The key word your all using is some, the problem is what is that some exactly? The other difficulty is that every group has a fearless leader and who knows where there head is at? but God Bless em if there getting there lives in working order. Personally, its nice to throw the lifelines around this web site and hope it helps.
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sky4it
With respect to that believing = recieving thing, what difference does it make wether you believe it or not? I mean it either works or it doesn't right? If it aint working by now maybe thats one yah wanna toss.
The bigger issue with me was always not what they had, but what they apparently didn't want. I really dont have any recollection of anyone telling me about the cross of Christ and applying that to the old man. Particularily Paul said , at times thats the only thing he wanted to preach was this, For I determined to know nothing amoung you save Jesus Christ and him crucified." I Corinthians 2:2 I certainly thought they didn't wanna discuss it much either, because it might take away something that they wanted to do today. In retrospect, that might of been a good thing eh?
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Keith
It’s been interesting to follow this thread. The shift has gone from TWI offshoots to believing = receiving. I’m not surprised as this has become a very convoluted subject. I coordinate a group that might be called an offshoot., but I don’t worship VPW. We do home fellowships, but I have nothing against a building. I teach believing and receiving, but not believing = receiving because, as one person stated, it is flawed. The way we receive from God what he has promised is to believe Him, but we cannot believe to receive a car or specific job, unless God has specifically promised us that specific job or car. We believe God’s promises, not in order receive things.
Back to subject… there are so many different “offshoots” that it would be hard to count them. My guess is that the number is way over the 400 or so mentioned earlier. But I think many of them would be offended to be called an “offshoot.” I know I am, but I have to admit that most of the people who come are ex-twi – so since the shoe fits I guess we have to wear it. Here would be my advice for avoiding trouble with offshoots.
If they use quotes from VPW instead of scripture – Run
If they try to control your life – Run
If they have to sell you something, or ask that you take a class before you can be a part of them or contribute to them – Run (note, I’m not saying they don’t have classes, but you should never be looked down on for not taking them)
If they charge for their classes, be suspicious and prepared to run
If they say they have a corner on the truth, or that TWI used to – run
If they spend their time downgrading other groups and talking about how stupid they are or how much better they are than these other groups – Run.
If they are unwilling to bring in teachers, books or idea from outside their group or from groups that were also ex-twi – run.
This is longer than I would have liked, but I only drop in once in a while and I guess it bottles up inside me.
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sky4it
Keith:
Your comment:
If they say they have a corner on the truth, or that TWI used to – run
I think that says a lot. It also says you have faith. Read John Lynn's letter and the comment about "the first century thing."
Can you say run to that?
In my mind, the former leadership in TWI, would be better served and serve others for apologizing for preaching that "1st century church bunk.", then starting new groups and re-inventing Frankenstien.
I literally got nauseated reading that John Lynn letter, literally.
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Keith
It's a slow day at work so I thought I’d drop in to see if their was a response to my post.
I assume you are referring to the phrase “as it has not been taught since the first century.” This would be a phrase that I would say “run” to, in this case, because it implies “we have or had truth that others do not.”
If the person used the same phrase and said, “God is calling His people back. Churches around the world are rediscovering God’s grace and mercy, and throughout all of Churches of the world, the word is being taught as it has not been taught since the first century.” I would not say run, because I believe that this is happening through out the world and it has been going on for longer than TWI has been in existence and it involves all Christians, not any one group.
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sky4it
Keith:
That really wasnt my point. TWI limited that phrase to the exclusion of itself. I dont ever recall them saying this is going on before we got here, do you? Why then are you bringing that up?
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Keith
Sky4it, I'm sorry if my answer bothered you. I thought that the first part of my answer applied to what you were asking. Yes the TWI did apply this statment to imply that the they had a corner on the word. John Lynns letter is worded to do the same. The last part of my answer was to show a context that that phrase might be approprate, and I have to confess, I was also "preaching" a bit. TWI destroyed the concept of the one body in Christ. Something that is very, very important from what I read in Ephesian and it is a concept that is very dear to my heart, I try to share it with people in someway as much as I can, and TWI's "as it has not been taught since the first century did much to destroy the one body. That is why I mentioned the second part. Please forgive me if my "preaching" offended or bothered you.
Anyway a direct simple answer to your question about the use "as it has not be taught since the first century." as it is stated in Johns letter would mean run and it fact this particular doctrine to me means "Run as fast as you can."
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sky4it
Kieth:
No problem, I wasnt offended at all. I just would never myself be an apologist for VPW. I am not saying you did that either.
:)-->
Anyways, so good to hear some folks like you are really thriving in the Lord. I guess I always thought there would be those that would like you. Thank you so much for your comments.
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Darrell Bailey
All the comments on this thread are good.
Some issues are being mentioned that I had almost forgotten about since some of these doctrines I shed twenty years ago.
One of my first concerns about way doctrine in 78 and 79 was about the Cross.
To put it as succinctly as I can, the cross of our Lord Jesus, and his passion were greatly under-explained to us in twi.
My perception was and still is: Twi leadership was clueless about how to really be transfomed by the renewing of the mind.
The particular way VPW explained the mystery and it's refrences in the first epistle of Corinthians began to look inaccurate to me.
As I read I Cor. it appeared that the essence of our new life in Christ, the mystery of our life together as an assembly and as a body and ahead, was centered in and on the cross.
I read that even Chrisrians would experience pain and suffering and humiliation as they shared the cross and it did it's work on their old man.
I saw the cross as the end of the old nature, but the old man being carried forward in my behavior as one who was still functioning as aslave to sin.
But Corinthians ( s well as just about every other epistle) says that we are not our own we arebought with a price. The Lord Jesus bought us by going to the cross.
He purchased our lives from sin, and as we are continuing in his word, webecome his disciples, we learn his truth, and that truth makes us free.
He ransomed us. He Freed us. He is our liberator.
My perception was and still is: Twi leadership was clueless about the old man and the new man.
My perception was and still is: Twi leadership was clueless in teaching that the old "sin nature" (Note: I did nor say "old man") continued exist in our lives and the rest of our lives is a struggle between a sin nature and a righteous nature.
I have spent a lot of time reading about this "sin nature" thing and I asked to do a presentation to a CES gathering years ago but for one reason or another I was not asked to teach.
If the reason I was turned down was only a schdule or time-slotting issue I believe I
would have been given another opportunity.
But, it was made clear to me that my understanding on the two-natures thing was in contradiction to CES.
So even though they had just recently been publshing "Dialogue". They didn't want real dialogue on doctrine, just their own monologue.
TWI did not teach it's people how to walk in the righteosness of their Lord Jesus.
TWI taught a "christianized" version of Pharasaism. A pseudo-spiritual legalism that resulted in license.
The very informative and liberating text from Romans, "The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."
TWI replaced the Lordship of Jesus with a fellowship of seekers following a bunch of modern-day pharisees with anendless list of qualifications for all "believers" to apply themselves toward.
---
Too much to say.
Gotta go for a few minutes and cool off.
Thanks for listening and contributing.
God Bless,
Darrell Bailey
Indianapolis
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sky4it
Darryl:
I dont know that discussing old way doctrine is beneficial at all. You and I left at a time long long ago. Please do stick around. It would be nice to talk to others about our living Lord Jesus.
:)-->
Do you know of any other web sites that are good to such effect? The thing I like about ex-way people is that the bible was read upside down in so many ways, then when you talk topically it comes pretty easy for them. It also seems some of the folks have really matured. One fellow uses historical things to paint some really good pictures which are very insightful (Invisible Dan). So far ive had some fun. It kinda had the same effect on me when i found this web site, I just wanted to talk a big blue streak and I think i really did.
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Kit Sober
It seems to me that these people have done their best to allow the Holy Spirit to scatter them abroad, and they are doing their utmost for His highest in the place where they are called, doing their best to keep living and teaching as the Holy Spirit gives them utterance.
Another couple I know and love.
Kevin Porter -- He's got a ministry to Africa,"Lightbearers," out of Salem Oregon.
ACF - Association of Christian Fellowships, Frank and Pat Tulak, out of San Diego CA.
Kit
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