I've had no involvement with any since about 1999, so my summation of them may be out dated, but here goesa summation of each;
CES
I got involved with CES from it's beginning and received their tapes/magazines until around 1996. I did not like their aggressive promotion of momentous. And I don't agree 100% with all their doctrines and practices.
But I believe CES has done a very good job of correcting most of Wierwilles erroneous doctrines and practices. I would not hesitate to recommend several of their books or tapes.
CFF
I got involved with CFF around their beginning in 1996/97. I lived in Florida at the time and had friends who really liked John Shroyer, so I checked CFF out and fellowshipped with them for about a year.
I really like the people involved with CFF, very loving folks. But They were very into Wierwille being the MOG, and held his teachings like gospel. This was a big turnoff to me.
Geers group
I spent a very little amount of time maybe six months hanging with a group connected to Geer in 1994 when I lived in Maine. Some of the fellowship and teachings were okay, but I felt they were very judgemental and held Wierwille and Geer in too high esteem for my taste.
LMCI
As for LMCI (Dale Sides) I really like his style of teaching, and he teaches almost everthing different then Wierwille/TWI. As much as I enjoy his style, I disagree with several of his doctrines and practices. I would however recommend some of his teachings, especially those on repentance and on Jesus being Lord.
I'm curious if there are any major changes with any of these groups. Anyone else want to share on if they've changed their doctrines and prctices. Does CFF and Geers crowd still hold VPW in high esteem?
I think the Geerite groups have a new book out and the title is something like VP is God. I don't hang out with them, so sorry I couldn't be of more help :)-->
To the extent that an offshoot adheres to the legitimate goodies of twi, while simultaneously discarding the errors of twi, I think that offshoot has to be involved in promoting some godliness in peoples lives. I believe twi wasn't all bad, and did promote godliness in various areas; and it looks like there's folks around who want to keep the godly principles moving and growing. Godspeed to them.
To the extent that an offshoot adheres to the legitimate goodies of twi, while simultaneously discarding the errors of twi, I think that offshoot has to be involved in promoting some godliness in peoples lives.
This would be ideal, OM. The problem with this, however, is that many of the offshoots have not discarded the all of the errors simply because what is error to one is sound doctrine to another.
My personal experiences with offshoots has been that there is one glaring error that they keep in some form or another: believing=receiving.
As long as that error is kept, then there is no way that any form of godliness can be promoted in anyone's life...because it's no longer about god, but about believing.
quote:My personal experiences with offshoots has been that there is one glaring error that they keep in some form or another: believing=receiving.
I still can't say with certainty that believing=receiving is error, only because it appears to be clear, biblically. I guess I can say I don't fully understand the subject. But those bible verses, and the words of Jesus himself, are proof that believing=receiving might not be as erroneous as some claim. Unless there's some other hidden meaning somewhere I have to assume that those verses are true or at least a possibility of being true, divergent experiences notwithstanding.
Perhaps I should have refined what I was saying a bit...
Believing=receiving as taught by twi is erroneous. It shifts the focus to what a person believes and away from what work God is doing in one's life.
There are many things that come to pass regardless of anyone's believing...but because God set them in order...and it takes God to set them out of order.
Did the sun stand still because the prophet believed it would? If you say yes, then you are putting the focus on the prophet. If you say no, but because God told the prophet it would and God followed up, then you are putting the focus on God.
200? Guess that depends on the definition of "spin-off". To me, if there is outreach - the recruitment of new members, then it is a spin-off. Do they derive their doctrine from TWI? Do most of their members come directly from a TWI experience? Are there more than a handful of people?
IMO, a guy who decided to split from TWI and run a family fellowship hasn't really started a spin-off group.
In my area, there are active CFF and Geer groups - fairly large with several fellowships. They're no where near the size of what TWI used to be here, but they do welcome new people and have classes to offer.
Oh, and I've heard of people being kicked out of both groups for the same reasons people used to get kicked out of TWI. Guess that makes them more like TWI than they'd probably like to admit.
The spinoff group that I used to be involved with is almost identical to TWI. They are extremely controlling and don't allow for any differences of opinion. They worship VP and they don't stray from his teachings. If you are NOT a yes person, then this group is not for you. I'm thankful for the good that I learned from TWI, but I want to throw of the bad and continue to grow. The spin off groups that I personally know of and have had some involvement with continue to keep everything just as it was in TWI. They seem afraid of stepping out and making a mistake. It seems that they think if they keep everything the same as it was, that they will be safe. What a sad situation.
quote:Did the sun stand still because the prophet believed it would? If you say yes, then you are putting the focus on the prophet. If you say no, but because God told the prophet it would and God followed up, then you are putting the focus on God.
See?
Not sure yet where you're coming from. The way I see it, twi and their spinoffs claim to be biblical ministries, and as such, must (or try to) adhere to biblical concepts. Believing=receiving is a biblical concept. You said:
quote:There are many things that come to pass regardless of anyone's believing...but because God set them in order...and it takes God to set them out of order.
Ok, but how do you explain then all those verses about believing, and from Jesus himself? Either believing is a requirement, or it isn't. If God says we could automatically receive something without believing, fine (is that what you're saying about the sun standing still? It didn't matter what the guy believed?) But there are some things God requires believing for, for why then is it mentioned that believing is necessary?
I am a happily former wayfer that hasn't had any experience with spinoffs. I would like an education on how many formed after the VPW death/POP.
How many are/were there? I guess there could be many but my impression guess was there were a few "main" ones. Or Maine ones, for that matter. Are they generally similar? Who started the larger splinter groups? Are most started still around? Have any folded? Is Chris G**r still running one?
The background on John L**n on another thread brought this to mind. I knew these groups sprang up after POP but didn't know much about where they were or are today.
Can we refine the original question into 4 different questions?
(Context for all: extwi, with doctrine and leadership formerly from twi)
A)How many multi-state organizations have formed (at least 1 regular local meeting/group in at least 3 states-or 2 if there's multiple meetings locally) are there? Who started them and runs them now? How big are they?
B)How many multi-state organizations have closed down since 1989?
C) How many state wide organizations have formed?
(Multiple members and meetings across more than 20% of a state, with
members only in that state?) Who started them and runs them now?
How big are they?
D) How many local, one-or two neighborhood, or one-household-sized
organizations currently meet in someone's home?
I think we can end up mixing the answers and talking apples-oranges if
Either believing is a requirement, or it isn't. If God says we could automatically receive something without believing, fine (is that what you're saying about the sun standing still? It didn't matter what the guy believed?) But there are some things God requires believing for, for why then is it mentioned that believing is necessary?
There's no doubt that believing what is said in the bible is a requirement.
However, twi taught that believing in the bible is an action word...a verb...something that one must do...a difference between faith and believing...
Romans 10:9 clearly states, "...believe in thy heart...."
The prophet had to believe that God was going to make the sun stand still. Did the prophet have to do anything to make the sun stand still? No. God did that. Did it stand still because the prophet believed? No. It is clearly stated, "And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel." [Joshua 10:14 KJV]
It was not of Joshua's doing. It was of the Lord's doing.
So what did Joshua have to believe? He had to believe that the Lord was with him as stated in v 8.
God is not a credit card or a geenie in a lamp that one can whip out and wish upon.
God is sovereign. It is His decision what does and does not happen.
TWI taught that to receive anything from God one must,
Know what is available,
How to receive it,
What to do with it once one has it,
Get one's needs and wants parallel, and
Remember that God's willingness equals his ability and his ability equals his willingness.
It's like a magic formula or spell: if you get it all correct, then, voila!, God has to do it.
It's as if one is one's own lord with a god in one's pocket to prove it.
It's all backwards...no service to the will of God...no trusting in God's timing...no understanding that God has a plan and that he will bring one through to his plan...that he is the author and finisher of one's faith...
It's all up to one to decide...not up to God.
As long as anybody is teaching this twi standard, nobody is truly being led into a relationship with God having Jesus as Lord...but is being led into the same error as twi...the works and standards of men.
All these things people are talking about here that are signs of being a twi spinoff...they are all about the performance of a person...not about service to God.
Not sure about exactly what you mean concerning "service to God", but here's a quote from Wayne Clapp of CFF:
quote:We are whom God says we are; we have what God says we have; and we can do what He says we can do; BECAUSE God is Whom He says He is. His declaration of Himself in His Word is true. We show ourselves wise as we live as He has directed.
do you concur with this opinion? It looks like a sound declaration of faith in God and the bible.
To me, one way we can serve and honor God is by declaring our faith, and acting accordingly, as mentioned in the previous quote. What do you think?
CES is where I first learned that "All beleiving equals Receiving" as taught by TWI was not biblically correct. And that the fear in the heart of that mother did not kill that little boy.
To my knowledge they still teach that faith (pistis) is a noun, not a verb that connotes action as TWI taught.
LMCI to my recallection also does not teach "all believing equals receiving" but that beliving the promises of God can equal recieving of those promises.
But most importantly, both groups teach on the Lordship of Jesus Christ. For these reasons I recommend some of thier teachings.
What is the followup teaching to this? In twi the followup to similar statements was to lead people to "name it and claim it" mentality...with no consideration for service to God.
How does one declare one's faith? By having a better home, a better job, a fatter bank account, never being sick? These are things that are not always in our control...regardless of our believing. If one is serving God, one will declare one's faith even in the midst of need, sickness, being abased. In twi, this was not possible because to rejoice in God even in such conditions, one was considered deluded because one was obviously "not believing".
Is the followup teaching that one's faith is revealed in one's circumstances? If so, it's not godly...and cannot lead to godliness.
quote:Is the followup teaching that one's faith is revealed in one's circumstances?
Not that I have seen, but then again, I don't know everything about the offshoots. I think the "fear is believing in reverse" part of PFAL has been abandoned as error.
On the other hand, putting the emphasis on believing in God's power, and believing the promises of God and that He will bring things to pass, not by the power of man or the power of the human mind, but by His Word and Promises, is that part of PFAL that is being continued.
Perhaps others have experienced differently but that's what I have seen so far.
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jim martin/ jimextwi
To my knowledge there are around 200 plus off shoots.
jim
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JustThinking
Jim,
Holy s**t! Really? I had no idea.
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Outin88!
I've had experience with 4 "offshoots".
CES, CFF, LMCI and Geers group.
I've had no involvement with any since about 1999, so my summation of them may be out dated, but here goesa summation of each;
CES
I got involved with CES from it's beginning and received their tapes/magazines until around 1996. I did not like their aggressive promotion of momentous. And I don't agree 100% with all their doctrines and practices.
But I believe CES has done a very good job of correcting most of Wierwilles erroneous doctrines and practices. I would not hesitate to recommend several of their books or tapes.
CFF
I got involved with CFF around their beginning in 1996/97. I lived in Florida at the time and had friends who really liked John Shroyer, so I checked CFF out and fellowshipped with them for about a year.
I really like the people involved with CFF, very loving folks. But They were very into Wierwille being the MOG, and held his teachings like gospel. This was a big turnoff to me.
Geers group
I spent a very little amount of time maybe six months hanging with a group connected to Geer in 1994 when I lived in Maine. Some of the fellowship and teachings were okay, but I felt they were very judgemental and held Wierwille and Geer in too high esteem for my taste.
LMCI
As for LMCI (Dale Sides) I really like his style of teaching, and he teaches almost everthing different then Wierwille/TWI. As much as I enjoy his style, I disagree with several of his doctrines and practices. I would however recommend some of his teachings, especially those on repentance and on Jesus being Lord.
I'm curious if there are any major changes with any of these groups. Anyone else want to share on if they've changed their doctrines and prctices. Does CFF and Geers crowd still hold VPW in high esteem?
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CoolWaters
There are many, many offshoots that are being called small "churches" run by a former corpse family or two.
Here in the KC Metro area there's a big group with at least 17 smaller groups.
It's spooky...that dang tree won't die...
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pjroberge
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Raf
For some reason this is on the open forum.
But it explores some of the same ground as this thread.
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Don'tFenceMeIn
I think the Geerite groups have a new book out and the title is something like VP is God. I don't hang out with them, so sorry I couldn't be of more help
:)-->
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oldiesman
To the extent that an offshoot adheres to the legitimate goodies of twi, while simultaneously discarding the errors of twi, I think that offshoot has to be involved in promoting some godliness in peoples lives. I believe twi wasn't all bad, and did promote godliness in various areas; and it looks like there's folks around who want to keep the godly principles moving and growing. Godspeed to them.
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CoolWaters
This would be ideal, OM. The problem with this, however, is that many of the offshoots have not discarded the all of the errors simply because what is error to one is sound doctrine to another.
My personal experiences with offshoots has been that there is one glaring error that they keep in some form or another: believing=receiving.
As long as that error is kept, then there is no way that any form of godliness can be promoted in anyone's life...because it's no longer about god, but about believing.
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oldiesman
I still can't say with certainty that believing=receiving is error, only because it appears to be clear, biblically. I guess I can say I don't fully understand the subject. But those bible verses, and the words of Jesus himself, are proof that believing=receiving might not be as erroneous as some claim. Unless there's some other hidden meaning somewhere I have to assume that those verses are true or at least a possibility of being true, divergent experiences notwithstanding.
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CoolWaters
Perhaps I should have refined what I was saying a bit...
Believing=receiving as taught by twi is erroneous. It shifts the focus to what a person believes and away from what work God is doing in one's life.
There are many things that come to pass regardless of anyone's believing...but because God set them in order...and it takes God to set them out of order.
Did the sun stand still because the prophet believed it would? If you say yes, then you are putting the focus on the prophet. If you say no, but because God told the prophet it would and God followed up, then you are putting the focus on God.
See?
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Hope R.
200? Guess that depends on the definition of "spin-off". To me, if there is outreach - the recruitment of new members, then it is a spin-off. Do they derive their doctrine from TWI? Do most of their members come directly from a TWI experience? Are there more than a handful of people?
IMO, a guy who decided to split from TWI and run a family fellowship hasn't really started a spin-off group.
In my area, there are active CFF and Geer groups - fairly large with several fellowships. They're no where near the size of what TWI used to be here, but they do welcome new people and have classes to offer.
Oh, and I've heard of people being kicked out of both groups for the same reasons people used to get kicked out of TWI. Guess that makes them more like TWI than they'd probably like to admit.
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gladtobeout
The spinoff group that I used to be involved with is almost identical to TWI. They are extremely controlling and don't allow for any differences of opinion. They worship VP and they don't stray from his teachings. If you are NOT a yes person, then this group is not for you. I'm thankful for the good that I learned from TWI, but I want to throw of the bad and continue to grow. The spin off groups that I personally know of and have had some involvement with continue to keep everything just as it was in TWI. They seem afraid of stepping out and making a mistake. It seems that they think if they keep everything the same as it was, that they will be safe. What a sad situation.
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oldiesman
Ok, but how do you explain then all those verses about believing, and from Jesus himself? Either believing is a requirement, or it isn't. If God says we could automatically receive something without believing, fine (is that what you're saying about the sun standing still? It didn't matter what the guy believed?) But there are some things God requires believing for, for why then is it mentioned that believing is necessary?
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WordWolf
Can we refine the original question into 4 different questions?
(Context for all: extwi, with doctrine and leadership formerly from twi)
A)How many multi-state organizations have formed (at least 1 regular local meeting/group in at least 3 states-or 2 if there's multiple meetings locally) are there? Who started them and runs them now? How big are they?
B)How many multi-state organizations have closed down since 1989?
C) How many state wide organizations have formed?
(Multiple members and meetings across more than 20% of a state, with
members only in that state?) Who started them and runs them now?
How big are they?
D) How many local, one-or two neighborhood, or one-household-sized
organizations currently meet in someone's home?
I think we can end up mixing the answers and talking apples-oranges if
we're not careful.
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JustThinking
WW,
Good points and well said. It seems like we already have that to an extent. Thanks for the help.
JT
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CoolWaters
There's no doubt that believing what is said in the bible is a requirement.
However, twi taught that believing in the bible is an action word...a verb...something that one must do...a difference between faith and believing...
Romans 10:9 clearly states, "...believe in thy heart...."
The prophet had to believe that God was going to make the sun stand still. Did the prophet have to do anything to make the sun stand still? No. God did that. Did it stand still because the prophet believed? No. It is clearly stated, "And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel." [Joshua 10:14 KJV]
It was not of Joshua's doing. It was of the Lord's doing.
So what did Joshua have to believe? He had to believe that the Lord was with him as stated in v 8.
God is not a credit card or a geenie in a lamp that one can whip out and wish upon.
God is sovereign. It is His decision what does and does not happen.
TWI taught that to receive anything from God one must,
It's like a magic formula or spell: if you get it all correct, then, voila!, God has to do it.
It's as if one is one's own lord with a god in one's pocket to prove it.
It's all backwards...no service to the will of God...no trusting in God's timing...no understanding that God has a plan and that he will bring one through to his plan...that he is the author and finisher of one's faith...
It's all up to one to decide...not up to God.
As long as anybody is teaching this twi standard, nobody is truly being led into a relationship with God having Jesus as Lord...but is being led into the same error as twi...the works and standards of men.
All these things people are talking about here that are signs of being a twi spinoff...they are all about the performance of a person...not about service to God.
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oldiesman
Coolwaters,
Not sure about exactly what you mean concerning "service to God", but here's a quote from Wayne Clapp of CFF:
do you concur with this opinion? It looks like a sound declaration of faith in God and the bible.
To me, one way we can serve and honor God is by declaring our faith, and acting accordingly, as mentioned in the previous quote. What do you think?
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Outin88!
Coolwaters;
CES is where I first learned that "All beleiving equals Receiving" as taught by TWI was not biblically correct. And that the fear in the heart of that mother did not kill that little boy.
To my knowledge they still teach that faith (pistis) is a noun, not a verb that connotes action as TWI taught.
LMCI to my recallection also does not teach "all believing equals receiving" but that beliving the promises of God can equal recieving of those promises.
But most importantly, both groups teach on the Lordship of Jesus Christ. For these reasons I recommend some of thier teachings.
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CoolWaters
OM,
As that statement stands alone, I concur.
What is the followup teaching to this? In twi the followup to similar statements was to lead people to "name it and claim it" mentality...with no consideration for service to God.
How does one declare one's faith? By having a better home, a better job, a fatter bank account, never being sick? These are things that are not always in our control...regardless of our believing. If one is serving God, one will declare one's faith even in the midst of need, sickness, being abased. In twi, this was not possible because to rejoice in God even in such conditions, one was considered deluded because one was obviously "not believing".
Is the followup teaching that one's faith is revealed in one's circumstances? If so, it's not godly...and cannot lead to godliness.
**********************
Out,
Kewl!
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oldiesman
Not that I have seen, but then again, I don't know everything about the offshoots. I think the "fear is believing in reverse" part of PFAL has been abandoned as error.
On the other hand, putting the emphasis on believing in God's power, and believing the promises of God and that He will bring things to pass, not by the power of man or the power of the human mind, but by His Word and Promises, is that part of PFAL that is being continued.
Perhaps others have experienced differently but that's what I have seen so far.
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CoolWaters
Well how about that, OM...we've come to a place where we might actually agree...and may actually be getting along.
:D-->
Luvs ya!
;)-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
I can't help but see a similarity in extwiers joining splinter groups...and junkies switching to methadone. I guess some folks just "need" it.
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oldiesman
They are addicted to The Faith ...
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