ex10 - I have never thought of you as being "pozest" (maybe "pro-zest", but NEVER "pozest") Momentus affected different people differently because of the different things they did in their heads while the training took place.
I've never had the kinds of experiences Pat has had with people who took Momentus. But I do believe there were spiritual influences.
If you remember, when my wife had an episode on the second morning, a number of people came over and started trying to cast out demons. I was setting there asking the Lord for discerning of spirits, and He didn't show me any. I remember Dan put the demon chasers down in such a dramatic way that the topic of spirit influence never came up again. NEVER. Yet I now believe they were there, taking advantage of whoever they could.
TWI overplayed the "you're possessed" card. The things taught in the advanced class were things Wierwille gleaned for HOAXERS.
But that doesn't mean there aren't evil spirits, and that they don't try to trick us from time-to-time. The kinds of emotional trauma and deliberate confusion that Momentus hurls CAN prompt a person to open himself up.
Again, though I may refer to spirit influence occassionally, I don't use it with the same understanding TWI taught us, nor do I use it as a device for discrediting people I don't like for other reasons. (If I don't like you I'll TELL you why!)
CKnapp3 - The people who think they can't be broken are often the easiest to break. They tend not to consider the possibilities.
The harder you fight the Momentus trainers, the more committed to Momentus you will become when you finally DO break. That's what happened with Mark Graeser.
:::::snip:::::
Steve, what if you have grown hostile towards religion, Christianity, and even God himself? I'm quite sure Mark Graeser came prepared to improve his faith rather than bash God. But then I guess it's safe to assume a person like myself most likely wouldn't join up for the seminar in the first place since such a seminar has an improvement of one's faith as a goal in mind. But have the co-ordinators of Momentus considered the possibility of some coming into the course to be nothing more than a troublemaker? Also has any altercation ever broken out during any of the seminars? Your argument is only valid assuming one like M.G. wants to retain his Christian faith.
quote:Again, though I may refer to spirit influence occassionally, I don't use it with the same understanding TWI taught us, nor do I use it as a device for discrediting people I don't like for other reasons
In a true ministering situation, if you cast out a demonic entity, only you the minister may know what happened.
In TWI, it was an ego stroke to go around and say "that person has this spirit or that"
I can assure you that God will rarely give such a big mouthed person any revelation of that type, and certainly only when you are ministering to someone who has asked for help.
Your "knowing to protect believers" is a total farce...
Chuck - There IS part of your question I can answer. You asked if the co-ordinators consider that some people might come into the course to make trouble.
They have actually planned for it. It's part of the script.
In the old days, before military bootcamps became PC, it was the practice for the drill instructor, on the very first day, to pick out the biggest, toughest, meanest recruit, the one with the baddest attitude, and to beat the crap out of him in front of the whole company. The purpose was to INTIMIDATE all the boots.
Before a Momentus training started, the team would get together and figure out which trainee was most likely to cause trouble. That trainee became a marked person. In the first afternoon of the Momentus training, the trainers would find some excuse to beat the verbal snot out of that person, BEFORE he could start any trouble.
The purpose was to INTIMIDATE all the trainees.
Also, I never saw any fist-fights break out in our training, but I wouldn't have been surprized if it had happened. Plenty of people stood nose-to-nose, red-faced with their neck veins sticking out, shouting at each other, including married couples.
I did happen to take Momentus and I would say that my life did not get any better for it. I of course won't blame anyone for my taking it although it was really encouraged. Just as I won't say that it ruined my marriage. But I will say this anytime you have sleep deprivation, loud music and people screaming at you it's going to affect you somehow. I put my whole heart into it like I had been taught to do with everything, and boy it was hell. Granted some sins I had comitted had come out which I suppose in essence is good, but I know there was a better way. Shall we say a more Christ-like way? I didn't end up in the hospital as some did but I did end up striking out physically to others which was not my nature. And how devilish is this .... about I assert? Who in the hell was I to judge anyone and thats exactly what it encouraged. Yes it is true that we are not to lie but does that mean we go around and spew our thoughts all over the place? I was told by my husband after Momentus during one of our little chats that he desired to have sex with our church leaders wife. Now did I need that tidbit of truth? I should say not. I know from the experience it led to a lot of disobedience from we women in the church. Also a lot of false prophesy was going around at that time...yuck! So was Momentus evil? I will not speak for others but I wouldn't take it again and you can put that as my ephitat on my gravestone....for those who took it.
Ya know what I find rather curious re: Momentus and their near rabid insistance that whatever negative effects that you endured while taking their course, it is your doing, your responsibility, etc., ...
... whereas any positive results that you enjoyed as a result of Momentus, they will not contradict you if you give Momentus the praise and credit for said positive results. ... Ie., they don't mind taking the credit, but they do mind taking the criticism.
Hhmmmmm, .... interesting discrepancy there, ya think?
My friend took it years ago and tried to convince me to do so. She did tell me about her experience. She said that Dan was the only one at the time who could teah the class and you were NOT to talk about it. SHe said it was like 10 years of therapy in one weekend, since I think I heard more people are allowed to run it.
She said they teamed her up with a partner, then told her if she quit, the partner could not continue in Momentus training. So, YOU were responsible for the other person being unable to finish the class.
She said although they had Bible verses on the wall and played LOUD good Christian music, little of it had to do with God.
She said she was asked to stand and tell something about herself and whe she was finished she was screamed at that she was lying.
This was to get to "her truth" about herself so she could find the real her.
She was taught that OTHERS people's perceptions of you are WHO you really are. And almost anything you find wrong with another person goes back to your childhood.
This way of thinking became very annoying and helped to push us toward the end of our friendship. For instance, we would be driving and someone would cut me off and I would get angry. And she would constantly tell me, "who are you really mad at? Your father?"
This became her way with everything.
The CLASS was a “weekend” and the girl I knew was gone, and this kind-of robotic know-it-all woman then existed. She judged everyone and thought if she got people to be "honest" she could help them. Even at work, she would flow all her information through her NEW found filter.
She lost her job.
I got her an interview at my company, to help her out. ON THE INTERVIEW, this woman with a maters degree begins to PUSH the Mometus class to MY BOSS. And then began to critique her, bringing up some things I told her in confidence as MY FRIEND.
This nearly cost me my job. When she left my boss called me in and told me what happened and asked why I would suggest the lunatic for a position?
I apologized.
Then, the Momentus grad friend of mine actually SENT a letter to my boss because she thought she could help her if only she could get her to take the class.
It was a f-nightmare for me.
Now, the only thing she showed me from Momentus that I thought was GREAT was ---
She told me to tell her something about myself, and as I did she began to open drawers and shuffle papers and be overtly distracted. It bothered me! Then, she shared that we all need to be more respectful of people's feelings... That was cool, but TO ME, not worth the REST of the trip.
By the way, she was confronted that she was an alcoholic that weekend, something she did not know about herself. She continued to drink. She just became better at hiding the alcohol and began drinking earlier in the morning.
She thought it was a GREAT class. My observation of her was that she became a hard-to-be -with pain in the butt.
Gosh, I actually went to Momentous. I enjoyed it. Thought it was cool. I suppose if somebody thought I came out of it a "hard to be with-pain in the butt," they probly would've let me know by now. It's only been like, uh, let me see, 13 years?
Maybe it's one of those things that is like anything else in life, you make of it what you will, and the person you come out being, is who you were when you went it. Sorta like the cult.
Ya know what I find rather curious re: Momentus and their near rabid insistance that whatever negative effects that you endured while taking their course, it is your doing, your responsibility, etc., ...
... whereas any positive results that you enjoyed as a result of Momentus, they will not contradict you if you give Momentus the praise and credit for said positive results. ... Ie., they don't mind taking the credit, but they do mind taking the criticism.
Hhmmmmm, .... interesting discrepancy there, ya think?
I'd say that sounds strikingly familiar with pfal/twi.
While I have no personal experience of my own to share, posts like Dot Matrtix's, plus my own observations of what their documented tactics amount to, provide me with all the experience that I wouldn't ever even consider going thru in my life.
I knew two couples that were friends of mine. Both couples became insufferable to be around for about a month after taking Momentus.
One guy actually said, "If you see the changes in my life.... and would like these same changes ...blah blah blah.." I told him that he was had become one of the least humble people that I had ever been around.
The other couple couldn't seem to keep their word - even though they told me that that was a big deal in Momentus. They decided that the agreement (aka - friendship) needed to be "re-negotiated." Of course - there is no negotiating going on if you never talk to the other party ever again.
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WordWolf
It's never a good sign when you have to keep changing your group's name so that people don't know who you are. So, "The Revenant Process" and "Blood and Ethos" and "Master Coaches Academy
WordWolf
A) JAL never apologized to anyone about bringing in a harmful program, or shilling a harmful program- which he does to this day. Either he DOESN'T CARE it's a harmful program, or he's such a raving i
socks
They're similar to Scientology in many respects. Scientology has a range of hold-harmless agreements and contracts they use for their various activities. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Scientology/R
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pjroberge
For those of you that are curios, here's an older copy of the infamous "Hold Harmless Agreement" circa around 1999
http://www.excultworld.com/momentus/disclaimer.htm
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Steve Lortz
Thanks for posting a link to the hold-harmess agreement, Pat.
Sometimes my wife DOES think of me as a curio :-)
Love,
Steve
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ex10
Steve
I'm pretty sure I'm not "pozest" because of Momentous. Thanks for your concern, but just as you have dealt with it, so have I.
:)-->
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shazdancer
I dunno, ex10, maybe that explains why your head can spin all the way around....
Shaz
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Steve Lortz
ex10 - I have never thought of you as being "pozest" (maybe "pro-zest", but NEVER "pozest") Momentus affected different people differently because of the different things they did in their heads while the training took place.
I've never had the kinds of experiences Pat has had with people who took Momentus. But I do believe there were spiritual influences.
If you remember, when my wife had an episode on the second morning, a number of people came over and started trying to cast out demons. I was setting there asking the Lord for discerning of spirits, and He didn't show me any. I remember Dan put the demon chasers down in such a dramatic way that the topic of spirit influence never came up again. NEVER. Yet I now believe they were there, taking advantage of whoever they could.
TWI overplayed the "you're possessed" card. The things taught in the advanced class were things Wierwille gleaned for HOAXERS.
But that doesn't mean there aren't evil spirits, and that they don't try to trick us from time-to-time. The kinds of emotional trauma and deliberate confusion that Momentus hurls CAN prompt a person to open himself up.
Again, though I may refer to spirit influence occassionally, I don't use it with the same understanding TWI taught us, nor do I use it as a device for discrediting people I don't like for other reasons. (If I don't like you I'll TELL you why!)
I like you, ex10!
Love,
Steve
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CKnapp3
Steve, what if you have grown hostile towards religion, Christianity, and even God himself? I'm quite sure Mark Graeser came prepared to improve his faith rather than bash God. But then I guess it's safe to assume a person like myself most likely wouldn't join up for the seminar in the first place since such a seminar has an improvement of one's faith as a goal in mind. But have the co-ordinators of Momentus considered the possibility of some coming into the course to be nothing more than a troublemaker? Also has any altercation ever broken out during any of the seminars? Your argument is only valid assuming one like M.G. wants to retain his Christian faith.
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pjroberge
In TWI, it was an ego stroke to go around and say "that person has this spirit or that"
I can assure you that God will rarely give such a big mouthed person any revelation of that type, and certainly only when you are ministering to someone who has asked for help.
Your "knowing to protect believers" is a total farce...
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Steve Lortz
Chuck - I don't understand what exactly your question is. Could you please restate it in other words? Thanks!
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
Chuck - There IS part of your question I can answer. You asked if the co-ordinators consider that some people might come into the course to make trouble.
They have actually planned for it. It's part of the script.
In the old days, before military bootcamps became PC, it was the practice for the drill instructor, on the very first day, to pick out the biggest, toughest, meanest recruit, the one with the baddest attitude, and to beat the crap out of him in front of the whole company. The purpose was to INTIMIDATE all the boots.
Before a Momentus training started, the team would get together and figure out which trainee was most likely to cause trouble. That trainee became a marked person. In the first afternoon of the Momentus training, the trainers would find some excuse to beat the verbal snot out of that person, BEFORE he could start any trouble.
The purpose was to INTIMIDATE all the trainees.
Also, I never saw any fist-fights break out in our training, but I wouldn't have been surprized if it had happened. Plenty of people stood nose-to-nose, red-faced with their neck veins sticking out, shouting at each other, including married couples.
Love,
Steve
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excathedra
guess what ? i don't see it as a "spiritual battle" like maybe steve does (no offense)
i see it as a degrading bunch of bull****
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pjroberge
Perhaps now that JAL has made an appearance he would like to comment on his pet cult Momentus...
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TheEvan
Where did JAL make an appearance?
Still clearing my head after returning from the Darke Continente last night...
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WordWolf
This is one of the previous discussions specifically
on Momentus.
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grand-daughter
I did happen to take Momentus and I would say that my life did not get any better for it. I of course won't blame anyone for my taking it although it was really encouraged. Just as I won't say that it ruined my marriage. But I will say this anytime you have sleep deprivation, loud music and people screaming at you it's going to affect you somehow. I put my whole heart into it like I had been taught to do with everything, and boy it was hell. Granted some sins I had comitted had come out which I suppose in essence is good, but I know there was a better way. Shall we say a more Christ-like way? I didn't end up in the hospital as some did but I did end up striking out physically to others which was not my nature. And how devilish is this .... about I assert? Who in the hell was I to judge anyone and thats exactly what it encouraged. Yes it is true that we are not to lie but does that mean we go around and spew our thoughts all over the place? I was told by my husband after Momentus during one of our little chats that he desired to have sex with our church leaders wife. Now did I need that tidbit of truth? I should say not. I know from the experience it led to a lot of disobedience from we women in the church. Also a lot of false prophesy was going around at that time...yuck! So was Momentus evil? I will not speak for others but I wouldn't take it again and you can put that as my ephitat on my gravestone....for those who took it.
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GarthP2000
Ya know what I find rather curious re: Momentus and their near rabid insistance that whatever negative effects that you endured while taking their course, it is your doing, your responsibility, etc., ...
... whereas any positive results that you enjoyed as a result of Momentus, they will not contradict you if you give Momentus the praise and credit for said positive results. ... Ie., they don't mind taking the credit, but they do mind taking the criticism.
Hhmmmmm, .... interesting discrepancy there, ya think?
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ex10
Ok Garth, share your experience. I am all ears. :B)
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Dot Matrix
My friend took it years ago and tried to convince me to do so. She did tell me about her experience. She said that Dan was the only one at the time who could teah the class and you were NOT to talk about it. SHe said it was like 10 years of therapy in one weekend, since I think I heard more people are allowed to run it.
She said they teamed her up with a partner, then told her if she quit, the partner could not continue in Momentus training. So, YOU were responsible for the other person being unable to finish the class.
She said although they had Bible verses on the wall and played LOUD good Christian music, little of it had to do with God.
She said she was asked to stand and tell something about herself and whe she was finished she was screamed at that she was lying.
This was to get to "her truth" about herself so she could find the real her.
She was taught that OTHERS people's perceptions of you are WHO you really are. And almost anything you find wrong with another person goes back to your childhood.
This way of thinking became very annoying and helped to push us toward the end of our friendship. For instance, we would be driving and someone would cut me off and I would get angry. And she would constantly tell me, "who are you really mad at? Your father?"
This became her way with everything.
The CLASS was a “weekend” and the girl I knew was gone, and this kind-of robotic know-it-all woman then existed. She judged everyone and thought if she got people to be "honest" she could help them. Even at work, she would flow all her information through her NEW found filter.
She lost her job.
I got her an interview at my company, to help her out. ON THE INTERVIEW, this woman with a maters degree begins to PUSH the Mometus class to MY BOSS. And then began to critique her, bringing up some things I told her in confidence as MY FRIEND.
This nearly cost me my job. When she left my boss called me in and told me what happened and asked why I would suggest the lunatic for a position?
I apologized.
Then, the Momentus grad friend of mine actually SENT a letter to my boss because she thought she could help her if only she could get her to take the class.
It was a f-nightmare for me.
Now, the only thing she showed me from Momentus that I thought was GREAT was ---
She told me to tell her something about myself, and as I did she began to open drawers and shuffle papers and be overtly distracted. It bothered me! Then, she shared that we all need to be more respectful of people's feelings... That was cool, but TO ME, not worth the REST of the trip.
By the way, she was confronted that she was an alcoholic that weekend, something she did not know about herself. She continued to drink. She just became better at hiding the alcohol and began drinking earlier in the morning.
She thought it was a GREAT class. My observation of her was that she became a hard-to-be -with pain in the butt.
IMO.
Bless. I am glad to hear it helped some people.
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ex10
Gosh, I actually went to Momentous. I enjoyed it. Thought it was cool. I suppose if somebody thought I came out of it a "hard to be with-pain in the butt," they probly would've let me know by now. It's only been like, uh, let me see, 13 years?
Maybe it's one of those things that is like anything else in life, you make of it what you will, and the person you come out being, is who you were when you went it. Sorta like the cult.
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skyrider
I'd say that sounds strikingly familiar with pfal/twi.
:)
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GarthP2000
Ex10,
While I have no personal experience of my own to share, posts like Dot Matrtix's, plus my own observations of what their documented tactics amount to, provide me with all the experience that I wouldn't ever even consider going thru in my life.
But hey, that's me.
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ex10
What never ceases to amaze me, is how somebody's second hand experience takes prededence over those of us who were really there.
Just shows to go ya.......
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doojable
I knew two couples that were friends of mine. Both couples became insufferable to be around for about a month after taking Momentus.
One guy actually said, "If you see the changes in my life.... and would like these same changes ...blah blah blah.." I told him that he was had become one of the least humble people that I had ever been around.
The other couple couldn't seem to keep their word - even though they told me that that was a big deal in Momentus. They decided that the agreement (aka - friendship) needed to be "re-negotiated." Of course - there is no negotiating going on if you never talk to the other party ever again.
Sigh.........
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dmiller
Never took Momentus myself. Was encouraged to ---
but I don't do well in *group therapy* sessions --
so I smiled, and said, "no thanks".
(and yes --- it was some folks from CES that suggested it),
but not long after my refusal to go through the *class*,
CES dropped the entire Momentus thing.
But -- that's my *mileage*. YMMV. ;)
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GarthP2000
hehehehe
Looks like Yet Another Example, this time provided by Doojable, which shows us this very first hand experience, and what it often leads to, ... ehhh?
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