I was struck with a distinctive sense of a sitting through an old television re-run when reading of your encounters with Momentus recruiters amidst the CES society - that rerun being "PFAL", and all the hype that went into promoting it; my recollections of the constant barrage new people underwent at "Take-A-Stand Caravans," such as the one (interestingly enough, hosted by Mr. Fabulous Salesperson himself, JL) in which I lost almost all my old friends in one evening, friends whom I foolishly invited to this extravaganza and who became overwhelmed by the aggressive soul merchants, and quite justifiably wanted little to do with me following that ordeal.
I'm kind of glad I didn't personally come into contact with any Momentus promotors years later, when it was all the craze with CES (perhaps during the same time Linda described earlier), but merely the promo material and class info I received in the mail was enough to quickly turned me off to it at the time.
Besides, if I had taken it, I probably would have ended up stuttering like J-J-Jimmy Stewart.
He scoffed at me and told me outright that because I was not a Momentus grad that I simply did not understand. Well, to make a long story short...about 4 months after he "repented his sins" to his wife, she left him and filed for divorce. He was devastated...he lost his wife, his children, his job, his home and his dignity...this all happened because he was living in "Momentus world".
(snip)
Nevertheless, I believe that in this situation, his Momentus training led him to make a very wrong decision. I think his "common sense" was clouded by this "doctrine of repentance" that he picked up in his Momentus training.
UncleHairy, that was the other part of my question, thank you for an example in reply.
When I first came back to ex-way stuff after doing research on the net, JAL recommended a fellowship run in an ex-corpse couple's appartment by a guy named Mark M.
The first weekend we made a trip to a CES event where this guy taught a segment, they did their personal prophecies, and the rest of the dog and pony show.
He had conned one of the fellowship members into giving him a rather sizeable amount of money to support "the move of the word"
Later we found out he bought drugs and alcohol with the $, and lost his apartment where his wife and children lived. She was reduced (as we heard) to prostitution to care for her kids.
He attempted to play the role of LCM and had emergency meetings etc. Having not attended fellowships in over 10 years, my spiritual senses were dull. I accepted all this because JAL recommended this guy and even had him teach at a Ces event.
To make a long story short, he attempted to teach the Momentus class to the fellowship because he was a former trainer.
Around this time my spiritual perception had finally re-awakened and I saw through the ploys and deception and confronted him with the others in the fellowship.
He wqs given the boot and the fellowship met at my place about once a week until a friend who started running Momentus trainings got a few couples involved from the fellowship.
Then, the pressure was on to take it big time.I steadfastly refused and countered all the lame rationalizations they threw at me like you don't know until you take it etc.
I saw all the couples develop marital problems and the fellowship became divided into Momentus grads and Non-grads. Do you really need to put your hand in the fire to know it hurts if someone else already did so? Of course not!
Bottom line, the fruit of these momentus grads was not what I wanted in my life.
LOL, that is so true! My last baby is turning 13 this week -- whoever said boys are easier is nuts.... ;)-->
I think we develop a thinking pattern of "just keep teaching them, this too shall pass" with our kids. I think we did it somewhat with our TWI leaders, too. "That's just Doctor, he's frustrated 'cuz he loves us." "As soon as Craig stops screaming, we can get on with life, this will blow over." A good survival tactic when used with children, because we adults are in the position of power. We overlook their tantrums, and teach them when they are ready to listen. But what were we doing allowing grownups to treat us like that, whether in TWI, offshoots, or Momentus?
You touched on something that hits me in all this "we can handle it" thinking. I was out before LCM and the spittle years. I'm thinking that some people just don't feel "strong" or "spiritual" unless they're surviving something like that, or at least that their warning bells don't go off when someone acts like that. Yelling at people for no good reason should be a warning sign, not something to be explained away as in "he just really loves us." Insults and mocking are abuse. Uncontrolled rage is abuse.
Some people felt "spiritually strong" because they could take it. I would call them spiritually numb. I'm glad you were able to not take it too seriously. I think that mindset has helped you, and it isn't blond at all!
Yeah, houseisarockin, there it is. "I'm gonna get this off my chest, and you are supposed to handle it." He thought his "honesty" was going to make him feel better. He didn't care about how it made her feel. The Momentus mindset sounds more like Scientology than Christianity.
Obviously, the momentus training is not Christian by any stretch of the imagination.
Trainees were taught against charitable acts such as giving a seat on the lifeboat, and putting yourself ahead of others. "Confessing" your long ago sins to feel better at the expense of someone else's hurt is obviously wrong.
That poor wife, to be subjected to the disclosure of such a total betrayal by her husband, and the motivation was not for her benefit, but for the betrayer's. Itis so reprehensible, that it is beyond belief.
Evan - I apologize for hammering on YOU. The intention was to hammer on Momentus. The Momentus grads I would REALLY like to hammer on don't want to hear me anymore.
ex10 - As I have said before, I have held you in very high regard, and still do. You remind me of my brother and sisters. We don't always agree on everything, but we still love the heck out of each other. I don't think you're being obtuse or "blond" about Momentus. You're just a trusting person who accepted the Momentus trainers' explanations for what they were doing. I can't object to that. I did it too, at the time.
But Momentus was designed, from the ground up, to be deceptive. Deception was in EVERYTHING the trainers did. They didn't care if people were hurt by what they were doing. They didn't care if people got anything beneficial out of what they were doing, either. They only cared about our money, and about breaking and remolding us into recruiting machines so they could get even MORE people's money.
I know your icon is Grace Kelly, but I still enjoy imagining it is Ginger Rogers!
Momentus effected different people to different degrees. I think the key to some of the differences lays in how much commitment different people were willing to invest in the training.
I know one person who went through the same training as ex10 and I did, who was nearly uneffected. Later on, she told me she had been passively resistant through the whole thing, and had barely invested enough effort to escape the trainers' personal "attention".
Mark Graeser went into Momentus highly committed AGAINST the training. He fought the trainers tooth and nail, until he finally broke. Then he became one of the MOST committed people FOR Momentus. A commitment that has warped the doctrines of CES.
I suspect many people had an attitude similar to mine, "As long as I'm here, I'm committed 100%, but once it's over, it's OVER."
The Momentus training fostered an elitism among its grads that made the Way Corps look like the Mickey Mouse Club. I never attended any of the local grad meetings. After my experiences in The Way, I couldn't stomach the thought of being another "grad" of ANYTHING.
If I HAD attended the secret grad meetings, I would have become aware sooner of the truth about certain things happening in The Living Word Fellowship. The Momentus grads hijacked the leadership team by driving non-grads out (using techniques learned in the Momentus training), and then began using parts of the meetings to promote Momentus. It looked very casual and spontaneous on the surface, but at heart, it was all carefully orchestrated, in order to maximize recruiting.
In the Momentus training we were "taught" by word that the proper response to criticism is to relax, smile politely, and say "Thank you for loving me enough to share that with me." But by practise we were taught to respond to criticism with vicious fault-finding in the person who raised the criticism. That's why many of the grads promoting Momentus turn into pit-bulls when somebody raises objections, or even simply asks inconvenient questions about the training.
The most insidious evil of the Momentus training is the hold-harmless agreement. Trusting people who mean what they say and say what they mean, in signing the hold-harmless agreement, unthinkingly commit themselves to NOT RECOGNIZING the true damage Momentus does.
That includes the deceptive physical, emotional and spiritual manipulation involved in the exercises. Those people are primed to accept the trainer's deceptive, nonsensical explanations without asking any critical questions.
The hold-harmless agreement also fosters a callous, cold-hearted indifference to the suffering of the people who succumb to Momentus' "psychologically dangerous" exercises. After all, that person who had a nervous breakdown... that person who committed suicide... that couple who got divorced... , it must have been because THEY were WEAK. It couldn't be because of Momentus. Momentus is HARMLESS.
Pfal promised to change your life in three weeks...Momentus promises to change your life in four days.
As Leonard Cohen once said..."Everybody's talking to their pockets, everybody wants a box of chocolates and a long stem rose...everybody knows".
As P.T. Barnum once said..."there's a sucker born every minute".
There's nothing more annoying than talking to some punk who thinks his "4 day seminar", somehow, is superior to experiencing adult life for 35 years. It's the same concept as "get rich quick"...with the emphasis on "quick". I'm sorry, life just doesn't work that way. Perhaps the Momentus people should consider hiring Ron Pompeil to help with the marketing.
quote:I'm thinking that some people just don't feel "strong" or "spiritual" unless they're surviving something like that, or at least that their warning bells don't go off when someone acts like that. Yelling at people for no good reason should be a warning sign, not something to be explained away as in "he just really loves us." Insults and mocking are abuse. Uncontrolled rage is abuse.
okay shaz, what i'm reminded of is when my Mom was in therapy years ago and said to us kids, "you guys, don't you see, we're not COMFORTABLE unless we're walking on eggshells waiting for the bottom to drop out. that's our NORMAL LIFE." (ps. we were adult "kids")
No Mark I am not a candidate for Momentous. But I am also not in a position to turn people away from it either. I would say Steve Lortz is in a very good position to advise from his experience and think its interesting Evan and Ex10 have good things to say about it but not running around promoting it.
Would you with your lack of personal knowledge be right to tell someone to stay away from Momentous if it would turn out to be good for that person? Better safe than sorry huh?
TWI-2ers, how much of this stuff seems familiar from WC tactics used under the LCM reign of terror? What about those that had to trace their weakness back to where it began, sins of a life-time.
I personally would rather focus on the Savior from sin than on the sins committed. But I have learned to allow others to do what they feel is best for their lives and to live as they see fit. We become what we look at, (IMHO) but I have seen some that couldn’t *become* because something in their minds from the past held them back. If momentous allowed such a break through; well then praise God for that persons break through!
Yeah, houseisarockin, there it is. "I'm gonna get this off my chest, and you are supposed to handle it." He thought his "honesty" was going to make him feel better. He didn't care about how it made _her_ feel. The Momentus mindset sounds more like Scientology than Christianity.
Regards,
Shaz
Shaz,
Although I have followed to some degree this thread I withhold an educated opinion regarding it. But it does seem we, as well as others out there, have been feed the lack of understanding to be able to just know what to do yourself.
Grizzy, out of all the people posting here that have not had direct experience with Momentous I have perhaps been the most adament and at times encouraging about people sharing their personal experience with Momentous.
With regard to my recommendation of it, pro or con, I can only go by the fruits that I have seen in the people that I know personally that have taken it. Since I live near the headquarters of Momentous I have seen the lives of some of these people first hand. It clearly has not helped them. Primarily I have seen a great deal of alcoholism amoung Momentous grads soon after taking this class. In fact, of the four people that I know best that took Momentous, three of them became alcoholics after the Momentous training. And the fourth was also a heavy drinker and was a marginal alcoholic. No names please. These four people all took Momentous 10 years ago. All four people are no longer involved with Momentous and their alcoholism is now mostly under control. In fact, three of the four no longer drink at all. The health problems that this caused them are considerable. One is even on the waiting list for a liver transplant. Another has serious feet problems and can not stand for long periods. However, the three that no longer drink are doing better health wise. The route they were taking could have resulted in early death for them.
Perhaps they all had an alcoholism problem before Momentous? However, if Momentous is so great how come this problem seemed to flair up after taking this class and why did this problem not get under control during their Momentous involvement? Why did it only get under control after they were no longer involved?
Grizz...I know a fair amount about Momentus but have never taken it. Anybody who asks me...I tell them to run from it like the plague. You don't have to step in front of a train to know that it's a "bad decision". Without looking to far, it's easy to spot a red herring like this one...The "hold harmless" clause is un-Christian and they claim to be a Christian based group..."red light should be going off"...they are secretive about the training and have that elite smugness about the whole thing..."another red light should be going off". They claim a life changing experience in just 4 days..."this red light should be blinking". There are people whose lives have been destroyed because of this training (some are actually in mental institutions! "This red light should be strobbing!" There are numerous church's, cult awareness groups, and mental health experts who warn people of the extreme danger in getting involved with this thing..."At this point, every red light in the room should be glaring into your eyes!"...and to boot, I have personally seen it REALLY mess up a whole lot of folks. That's enough for me...I can say with a clear conscience to anybody...DO NOT TAKE MOMENTUS! But you say...even if it would do that person good? YES!...even if it would do that person good...it ain't worth the risk for what you "might" get out of it, IMHO.
With all due respect to The Evan and Ex10 and others, I really do question whether this thing does ANYBODY any good...It's possible that a person could THINK that it did him good, but...did it? At one time I thought that pfal was the greatest thing since sliced bread...but I was mistaken. Who knows what REALLY happens in the subconscious mind after taking Momentus? What seems to be "emotional resolution" and "cognitive enlightenment" may actually be a little green man crawling into your mental hiding places...who knows?
quote:What seems to be "emotional resolution" and "cognitive enlightenment" may actually be a little green man crawling into your mental hiding places...who knows?
Actually, I believe that spirit posession and infiltration is a whole part of what happens to people. My opinion is from the experience of ministering to a few people who had the Momentus "experience". It was spiritual rape...
I absolutely agree, exy. Sometimes, we're lucky enough to connect with good relationships post-abuse, but the point is, we who have been used to emotional abuse in the name of love/God can be blind to the signs of it when we encounter it elsewhere.
I haven't written much about the spiritual side of Momentus, for several reasons.
First, the things we were taught about spirit activity in TWI (ESPECIALLY the Advanced Class) were SOOOO WRONG!
Second, many people here no longer believe in spirit activity, and there are plenty enough reasons to reject Momentus on the basis of its physical and emotional abuses.
Third, understanding of spiritual things can be highly subjective, and therefore less accessible to objective demonstration.
Those things being said, I agree with Pat's assessment,
quote: Actually, I believe that spirit posession and infiltration is a whole part of what happens to people... It was spiritual rape...
When the Lord opened my eyes to what had happened to me during the sixteen months after I had taken Momentus, He directed my attention to Jeremiah 17:5.
Mark G. wife claims to be a prophetess and has been advertised as such by John S. and CES, ( someone with a gift to speak for God ) .
The "gift ministries" where always held in esteem by folowers as special and deserving of worship and respect. She also reccommended people "break out of their comfort zone" and take the training I personly heard her and of course we listen to the "gift ministries" and heed Gods spokeman and all hail CES for putting a nice PC twist on the idea by recognizing a WOMAN with such say so to the masses, no reason to suspect a sexual reason for her say so much safer just in case ya know.
good lord in heaven am I the ONLY one who can see this ?
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WordWolf
It's never a good sign when you have to keep changing your group's name so that people don't know who you are. So, "The Revenant Process" and "Blood and Ethos" and "Master Coaches Academy
WordWolf
A) JAL never apologized to anyone about bringing in a harmful program, or shilling a harmful program- which he does to this day. Either he DOESN'T CARE it's a harmful program, or he's such a raving i
socks
They're similar to Scientology in many respects. Scientology has a range of hold-harmless agreements and contracts they use for their various activities. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Scientology/R
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TheInvisibleDan
Uncle Hairy-
I was struck with a distinctive sense of a sitting through an old television re-run when reading of your encounters with Momentus recruiters amidst the CES society - that rerun being "PFAL", and all the hype that went into promoting it; my recollections of the constant barrage new people underwent at "Take-A-Stand Caravans," such as the one (interestingly enough, hosted by Mr. Fabulous Salesperson himself, JL) in which I lost almost all my old friends in one evening, friends whom I foolishly invited to this extravaganza and who became overwhelmed by the aggressive soul merchants, and quite justifiably wanted little to do with me following that ordeal.
I'm kind of glad I didn't personally come into contact with any Momentus promotors years later, when it was all the craze with CES (perhaps during the same time Linda described earlier), but merely the promo material and class info I received in the mail was enough to quickly turned me off to it at the time.
Besides, if I had taken it, I probably would have ended up stuttering like J-J-Jimmy Stewart.
Danny
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excathedra
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houseisarockin
UncleHairy, that was the other part of my question, thank you for an example in reply.
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pjroberge
When I first came back to ex-way stuff after doing research on the net, JAL recommended a fellowship run in an ex-corpse couple's appartment by a guy named Mark M.
The first weekend we made a trip to a CES event where this guy taught a segment, they did their personal prophecies, and the rest of the dog and pony show.
He had conned one of the fellowship members into giving him a rather sizeable amount of money to support "the move of the word"
Later we found out he bought drugs and alcohol with the $, and lost his apartment where his wife and children lived. She was reduced (as we heard) to prostitution to care for her kids.
He attempted to play the role of LCM and had emergency meetings etc. Having not attended fellowships in over 10 years, my spiritual senses were dull. I accepted all this because JAL recommended this guy and even had him teach at a Ces event.
To make a long story short, he attempted to teach the Momentus class to the fellowship because he was a former trainer.
Around this time my spiritual perception had finally re-awakened and I saw through the ploys and deception and confronted him with the others in the fellowship.
He wqs given the boot and the fellowship met at my place about once a week until a friend who started running Momentus trainings got a few couples involved from the fellowship.
Then, the pressure was on to take it big time.I steadfastly refused and countered all the lame rationalizations they threw at me like you don't know until you take it etc.
I saw all the couples develop marital problems and the fellowship became divided into Momentus grads and Non-grads. Do you really need to put your hand in the fire to know it hurts if someone else already did so? Of course not!
Bottom line, the fruit of these momentus grads was not what I wanted in my life.
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shazdancer
Dear ex10,
LOL, that is so true! My last baby is turning 13 this week -- whoever said boys are easier is nuts....
;)-->
I think we develop a thinking pattern of "just keep teaching them, this too shall pass" with our kids. I think we did it somewhat with our TWI leaders, too. "That's just Doctor, he's frustrated 'cuz he loves us." "As soon as Craig stops screaming, we can get on with life, this will blow over." A good survival tactic when used with children, because we adults are in the position of power. We overlook their tantrums, and teach them when they are ready to listen. But what were we doing allowing grownups to treat us like that, whether in TWI, offshoots, or Momentus?
You touched on something that hits me in all this "we can handle it" thinking. I was out before LCM and the spittle years. I'm thinking that some people just don't feel "strong" or "spiritual" unless they're surviving something like that, or at least that their warning bells don't go off when someone acts like that. Yelling at people for no good reason should be a warning sign, not something to be explained away as in "he just really loves us." Insults and mocking are abuse. Uncontrolled rage is abuse.
Some people felt "spiritually strong" because they could take it. I would call them spiritually numb. I'm glad you were able to not take it too seriously. I think that mindset has helped you, and it isn't blond at all!
Regards,
Shaz
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shazdancer
Yeah, houseisarockin, there it is. "I'm gonna get this off my chest, and you are supposed to handle it." He thought his "honesty" was going to make him feel better. He didn't care about how it made her feel. The Momentus mindset sounds more like Scientology than Christianity.
Regards,
Shaz
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pjroberge
Trainees were taught against charitable acts such as giving a seat on the lifeboat, and putting yourself ahead of others. "Confessing" your long ago sins to feel better at the expense of someone else's hurt is obviously wrong.
That poor wife, to be subjected to the disclosure of such a total betrayal by her husband, and the motivation was not for her benefit, but for the betrayer's. Itis so reprehensible, that it is beyond belief.
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Steve Lortz
Evan - I apologize for hammering on YOU. The intention was to hammer on Momentus. The Momentus grads I would REALLY like to hammer on don't want to hear me anymore.
ex10 - As I have said before, I have held you in very high regard, and still do. You remind me of my brother and sisters. We don't always agree on everything, but we still love the heck out of each other. I don't think you're being obtuse or "blond" about Momentus. You're just a trusting person who accepted the Momentus trainers' explanations for what they were doing. I can't object to that. I did it too, at the time.
But Momentus was designed, from the ground up, to be deceptive. Deception was in EVERYTHING the trainers did. They didn't care if people were hurt by what they were doing. They didn't care if people got anything beneficial out of what they were doing, either. They only cared about our money, and about breaking and remolding us into recruiting machines so they could get even MORE people's money.
I know your icon is Grace Kelly, but I still enjoy imagining it is Ginger Rogers!
Love,
Steve
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oldiesman
Am I on track in saying that Momentus sounds like an inexpensive way to get deprogrammed?
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Steve Lortz
Momentus effected different people to different degrees. I think the key to some of the differences lays in how much commitment different people were willing to invest in the training.
I know one person who went through the same training as ex10 and I did, who was nearly uneffected. Later on, she told me she had been passively resistant through the whole thing, and had barely invested enough effort to escape the trainers' personal "attention".
Mark Graeser went into Momentus highly committed AGAINST the training. He fought the trainers tooth and nail, until he finally broke. Then he became one of the MOST committed people FOR Momentus. A commitment that has warped the doctrines of CES.
I suspect many people had an attitude similar to mine, "As long as I'm here, I'm committed 100%, but once it's over, it's OVER."
The Momentus training fostered an elitism among its grads that made the Way Corps look like the Mickey Mouse Club. I never attended any of the local grad meetings. After my experiences in The Way, I couldn't stomach the thought of being another "grad" of ANYTHING.
If I HAD attended the secret grad meetings, I would have become aware sooner of the truth about certain things happening in The Living Word Fellowship. The Momentus grads hijacked the leadership team by driving non-grads out (using techniques learned in the Momentus training), and then began using parts of the meetings to promote Momentus. It looked very casual and spontaneous on the surface, but at heart, it was all carefully orchestrated, in order to maximize recruiting.
In the Momentus training we were "taught" by word that the proper response to criticism is to relax, smile politely, and say "Thank you for loving me enough to share that with me." But by practise we were taught to respond to criticism with vicious fault-finding in the person who raised the criticism. That's why many of the grads promoting Momentus turn into pit-bulls when somebody raises objections, or even simply asks inconvenient questions about the training.
The most insidious evil of the Momentus training is the hold-harmless agreement. Trusting people who mean what they say and say what they mean, in signing the hold-harmless agreement, unthinkingly commit themselves to NOT RECOGNIZING the true damage Momentus does.
That includes the deceptive physical, emotional and spiritual manipulation involved in the exercises. Those people are primed to accept the trainer's deceptive, nonsensical explanations without asking any critical questions.
The hold-harmless agreement also fosters a callous, cold-hearted indifference to the suffering of the people who succumb to Momentus' "psychologically dangerous" exercises. After all, that person who had a nervous breakdown... that person who committed suicide... that couple who got divorced... , it must have been because THEY were WEAK. It couldn't be because of Momentus. Momentus is HARMLESS.
Well, all for now.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
oldiesman - You asked, "Am I on track in saying that Momentus sounds like an inexpensive way to get deprogrammed?"
You're spot on about the deprogramming. Momentus uses many of the same techniques.
HOWEVER, you go off the track when you use the word "inexpensive". It is VERY expensive, mostly in terms of things other than money!
I appreciate your contribution around Greasespot, oldies. It wouldn't be the same enjoyable place without you!
Love,
Steve
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oldiesman
Well it does seem a bit less than some of those past reports of deprogrammings costing $10,000 or so.
Thanks for the compliment Steve. I know some folks would love it if I just shut up, but it's nice to hear others appreciate my contributions.
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Steve Lortz
$10,000 versus $150?
How can Momentus stay in business at such crazy, give-away prices?!?
volume! VOLUME!! VOLUME!!!
Love,
Steve
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GrouchoMarxJr
Pfal promised to change your life in three weeks...Momentus promises to change your life in four days.
As Leonard Cohen once said..."Everybody's talking to their pockets, everybody wants a box of chocolates and a long stem rose...everybody knows".
As P.T. Barnum once said..."there's a sucker born every minute".
There's nothing more annoying than talking to some punk who thinks his "4 day seminar", somehow, is superior to experiencing adult life for 35 years. It's the same concept as "get rich quick"...with the emphasis on "quick". I'm sorry, life just doesn't work that way. Perhaps the Momentus people should consider hiring Ron Pompeil to help with the marketing.
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socks
UH, now we're talkin'...
...it saves you time!
and it's healthy...it cuts the fat!
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excathedra
well i like 4 days better than 3 weeks
:)-->
okay shaz, what i'm reminded of is when my Mom was in therapy years ago and said to us kids, "you guys, don't you see, we're not COMFORTABLE unless we're walking on eggshells waiting for the bottom to drop out. that's our NORMAL LIFE." (ps. we were adult "kids")Link to comment
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Grizzy
No Mark I am not a candidate for Momentous. But I am also not in a position to turn people away from it either. I would say Steve Lortz is in a very good position to advise from his experience and think its interesting Evan and Ex10 have good things to say about it but not running around promoting it.
Would you with your lack of personal knowledge be right to tell someone to stay away from Momentous if it would turn out to be good for that person? Better safe than sorry huh?
TWI-2ers, how much of this stuff seems familiar from WC tactics used under the LCM reign of terror? What about those that had to trace their weakness back to where it began, sins of a life-time.
I personally would rather focus on the Savior from sin than on the sins committed. But I have learned to allow others to do what they feel is best for their lives and to live as they see fit. We become what we look at, (IMHO) but I have seen some that couldn’t *become* because something in their minds from the past held them back. If momentous allowed such a break through; well then praise God for that persons break through!
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houseisarockin
Shaz,
Although I have followed to some degree this thread I withhold an educated opinion regarding it. But it does seem we, as well as others out there, have been feed the lack of understanding to be able to just know what to do yourself.
Regards in Return,
House
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Mark Sanguinetti
Grizzy, out of all the people posting here that have not had direct experience with Momentous I have perhaps been the most adament and at times encouraging about people sharing their personal experience with Momentous.
With regard to my recommendation of it, pro or con, I can only go by the fruits that I have seen in the people that I know personally that have taken it. Since I live near the headquarters of Momentous I have seen the lives of some of these people first hand. It clearly has not helped them. Primarily I have seen a great deal of alcoholism amoung Momentous grads soon after taking this class. In fact, of the four people that I know best that took Momentous, three of them became alcoholics after the Momentous training. And the fourth was also a heavy drinker and was a marginal alcoholic. No names please. These four people all took Momentous 10 years ago. All four people are no longer involved with Momentous and their alcoholism is now mostly under control. In fact, three of the four no longer drink at all. The health problems that this caused them are considerable. One is even on the waiting list for a liver transplant. Another has serious feet problems and can not stand for long periods. However, the three that no longer drink are doing better health wise. The route they were taking could have resulted in early death for them.
Perhaps they all had an alcoholism problem before Momentous? However, if Momentous is so great how come this problem seemed to flair up after taking this class and why did this problem not get under control during their Momentous involvement? Why did it only get under control after they were no longer involved?
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
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GrouchoMarxJr
Grizz...I know a fair amount about Momentus but have never taken it. Anybody who asks me...I tell them to run from it like the plague. You don't have to step in front of a train to know that it's a "bad decision". Without looking to far, it's easy to spot a red herring like this one...The "hold harmless" clause is un-Christian and they claim to be a Christian based group..."red light should be going off"...they are secretive about the training and have that elite smugness about the whole thing..."another red light should be going off". They claim a life changing experience in just 4 days..."this red light should be blinking". There are people whose lives have been destroyed because of this training (some are actually in mental institutions!
"This red light should be strobbing!" There are numerous church's, cult awareness groups, and mental health experts who warn people of the extreme danger in getting involved with this thing..."At this point, every red light in the room should be glaring into your eyes!"...and to boot, I have personally seen it REALLY mess up a whole lot of folks. That's enough for me...I can say with a clear conscience to anybody...DO NOT TAKE MOMENTUS! But you say...even if it would do that person good? YES!...even if it would do that person good...it ain't worth the risk for what you "might" get out of it, IMHO.
With all due respect to The Evan and Ex10 and others, I really do question whether this thing does ANYBODY any good...It's possible that a person could THINK that it did him good, but...did it? At one time I thought that pfal was the greatest thing since sliced bread...but I was mistaken. Who knows what REALLY happens in the subconscious mind after taking Momentus? What seems to be "emotional resolution" and "cognitive enlightenment" may actually be a little green man crawling into your mental hiding places...who knows?
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pjroberge
Actually, I believe that spirit posession and infiltration is a whole part of what happens to people. My opinion is from the experience of ministering to a few people who had the Momentus "experience". It was spiritual rape...
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shazdancer
I absolutely agree, exy. Sometimes, we're lucky enough to connect with good relationships post-abuse, but the point is, we who have been used to emotional abuse in the name of love/God can be blind to the signs of it when we encounter it elsewhere.
Regards,
Shaz
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Steve Lortz
I haven't written much about the spiritual side of Momentus, for several reasons.
First, the things we were taught about spirit activity in TWI (ESPECIALLY the Advanced Class) were SOOOO WRONG!
Second, many people here no longer believe in spirit activity, and there are plenty enough reasons to reject Momentus on the basis of its physical and emotional abuses.
Third, understanding of spiritual things can be highly subjective, and therefore less accessible to objective demonstration.
Those things being said, I agree with Pat's assessment,
When the Lord opened my eyes to what had happened to me during the sixteen months after I had taken Momentus, He directed my attention to Jeremiah 17:5.
Love,
Steve
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mj412
Shaz and exie are right.
Mark G. wife claims to be a prophetess and has been advertised as such by John S. and CES, ( someone with a gift to speak for God ) .
The "gift ministries" where always held in esteem by folowers as special and deserving of worship and respect. She also reccommended people "break out of their comfort zone" and take the training I personly heard her and of course we listen to the "gift ministries" and heed Gods spokeman and all hail CES for putting a nice PC twist on the idea by recognizing a WOMAN with such say so to the masses, no reason to suspect a sexual reason for her say so much safer just in case ya know.
good lord in heaven am I the ONLY one who can see this ?
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