Considering the hidden agenda of the Momentus trainers, let's review what pjroberg noticed about Momentus' finances in his post of July 17, '04, 09:23 on page 5 of this thread.
The Momentus training cost $150 per head, and the checks were made out to the local sponsors. The piece pjroberg quoted seemed to indicate that the trainers relied on the last session free-will donations for their piece of the pie.
But that wasn't the case.
In his post of July 13, '04, 15:16 on page 1 of this thread, pj posted a link to excultworld.com.
If you click on that link, and then scroll down, you'll find another link to something called "Former Area Sponsor Explains Why She Now Rejects Momentus Training". This is the testimony of Marsha Robbins, who, along with her husband, sponsored three Momentus trainings in the Indianapolis area.
She indicates that she and her husband LOST $6,000 on those three trainings.
The Momentus organization required the local sponsors to pay the cost of the training up front. In return, the local sponsors received the franchise for selling seats in the training. If they could sell more seats than they had contracted for with Momentus, they got to keep the difference.
The last session free-will offerings were PURE GRAVY for the trainers.
However, if the local sponsors failed to fill the seats they had payed for, there were NO refunds.
$6,000 at $150 per seat is 40 seats. Over the course of the three sessions the Robbinses sponsored, their recruitment fell forty seats short of the amount they had paid for.
The hidden agenda of the Momentus trainers was to turn Momentus grads into recruiting machines, something they did with a vengence. They really liked John Lynn.
The latest I read, John was bragging he had gotten 1,200 of his "closest friends" to take Momentus. At $150 a head, John Lynn was responsible for bringing $180,000 into the Momentus coffers. Dan and the other Myshiach leaders would invite him to go golfing, etc., stroking his ego muy mucho. John liked to feel that he was running with the big dogs. I don't know if it's still that way. It seems John would eventually run out of "closest friends".
ex10 - I don't have any problems with your position on the Momentus training. I myself believe to this day that I received both revelation and some deliverance from the Lord during our Momentus experience. But I have since come to believe that revelation and deliverance were IN SPITE of, rather than because of, Momentus.
I felt much as you do for about sixteen months after the training. But I saw some horrible things going on among the people around me. I prayed for understanding, and when the Lord answered that prayer, He did it big time. For those of us who continue to believe what the Bible says, there are VERY SERIOUS consequences for the foolish, unthinking things we did during Momentus. It's Jeremiah 17:5 stuff.
the difference is that when a person gets a new job or signs up for military training the agenda and training is explained and the outcome is expected.
the manner in which the momentous training was sold was as a christian thing to grow in the Lord. my pont is I think many where shocked at what it was , ok they could have investigated further blah blah etc. yes.
Yet in fact the endorsement by CES and those who trusted their judgement and reccomendation persuaded some to do it without looking into the thing as much as they would have otherwise .
some felt betrayed by CES when they got hurt this I do understand especialy with the fact anyone who had problems with the training where called unstable or weak and not good enough to handle it by CES the very ones who they trusted to get involved in it .
the training sounds unpredictable by the accounts I have read , CEs did not indicate that it was troublesome to some because it was not trouble some to them , yet as "leaders" to people who are trained and who have obeyed by their own training at their beck and call searching for help in the new cult or out of the old cult I feel CES could have been much more forthcoming about what it was all about and then willing to help those that had issues with it, instead of banning together with the elite that had a good experience and insulting those who did not.
Some things which personally strike me as peculiar about the "lifeboat" exercise (at least on the basis of what I'm able to gather here), especially if the class was designed to make one a better or more effective Christian.
For instance, what were the main reasons given by people who did not vote themselves to remain on the imaginary lifeboat? Was it from a compulsion of the well-known, traditional Christian virtue of "self-sacrifice" - that they gave up their spot on the boat so that others might live?
Or did the Momentus trainers assert otherwise, in such a way perhaps suggesting that many Christians were actually using the notion of self-sacrifice as an excuse to not care for or value their selves?
I can't remember, Danny. I do remember I gave up my seat for my wife and one sister. (The other worthless sister I left in the water as shark bait, of course. HAHAHAHA).
Steve, what you said about finances doesn't compute. If Lynn got all those people into the thing, how much of the $150 a head went to the Momentus people. None, according to you. it all went to the local sponsor. Me, I don't know, nor care. But, offhand, it doesn't quite strike me as a cash cow. But if theyr'e still around it must at elast sustain them. I do remember, though, a pretty extravagant appeal for donations at the end of the deal.
I can't remember, Danny. I do remember I gave up my seat for my wife and one sister. (The other worthless sister I left in the water as shark bait, of course. HAHAHAHA).
(LOL) Omigosh, did you hum the "Jaws" theme for the occassion, and did she ever forgive you?
ok, I took Momentous and I am one of those cases that didn't turn out so well.
I took it because some one I knew who had taken it was zealous to have me take it and strongly encouraged me to go.
I was seeing a psychiatrist at the time and that disqualified me supposedly so I chose not to go but I was informed later that as long as I was not on medication it was ok.
I had had manic episodes in the past but it had been 12 years since the last one and I was seeing the therapist for other reasons.
So I went. I enthusiastically took part in the training, I even did the homework they assigned us that resulted in my lack of sleep because in order to do it you needed to stay up even though we were told to make sure we had enough rest.
Unfortunately, my partaking of the Momentous experience resulted in a manic/psychotic episode that resulted in my being hospitalized. The trainers even came to see me in the mental hospital.
My husband and best friend both feel bitter towards Mementous. Strangely, I haven't held a grudge, though I do wish I'd never been involved.
Evan - You wrote, "Steve, what you said about finances doesn't compute. If Lynn got all those people into the thing, how much of the $150 a head went to the Momentus people. None according to you. it all went to the local sponsor."
You need to read more carefully. Here's what I wrote, "The Momentus organization required the local sponsors to pay the cost of the training up front. In return, the local sponsors received the franchise for selling seats in the training."
The local sponsors PAID $150 per projected head BEFORE the Momentus people would even schedule the training. After that, the local sponsors were expected to recoup whatever they could by filling the class.
It was like, if I had been a twig coordinator, and I wanted to run PFAL, I would have had to pay HQ $210 before I could schedule the class. Then, I would be expected to collect $30 from each of the seven new students in order to replace the $210 I had shelled out to HQ. If I signed up nine people instead of seven, I would get to keep the extra money, and I'd be $60 ahead. But if I only signed up four new students, I would lose $90.
That's how the Robbinses lost $6,000 over the course of the three Momentus trainings they sponsored.
Momentus got the money, ALL OF IT, before the trainings were even scheduled. Momentus was, and is (no matter what word they've deceptively changed the title to), nothing more than a cash cow.
quote: ...what were the main reasons given by people who did not vote themselves to remain on the imaginary lifeboat? Was it from a compulsion of the well-known, traditional Christian value of "self-sacrifice" - that they gave up their spot on the boat so that others might live?
Or did the Momentus trainers assert otherwise, in such a way perhaps suggesting that many Christians were actually using the notion of self-sacrifice as an excuse to not care for or value their selves?
Evan may not remember, but I do. Here's how the life-boat exercise went.
It was the last exercise of the day, after we were all worn out. The lights were dimmed. We were told to sit with our eyes closed while Larry Pinci led us through the guided imagery of being on a cruise ship, how wonderful everything was. Then the ship started to sink.
(This just seemed hokey to me. Maybe it was because Larry's delivery wasn't up to snuff. Maybe it was the four years experience I had living on a submarine.)
Next, each one of us had to get up in front of the group (about 60 in our case) and tell what he/she would do, and why. Any attempt to escape by a means other than the life-boat was disallowed by the trainers. Early persons who gave up their seat out of what Danny called the "well-known, traditional Christian virtue of 'self-sacrifice'" were hooted and jeered and mocked by the trainers, so that option suffered an early demise. What the trainers wanted was for everyone to make a pitch as to why he or she personally should be on the boat.
After everyone told what they would do, we were all lined up in a single line around the room walls, facing the center, and we were told to take our name tags off and to pocket them.
Each of us was issued about a half-a-dozen popcycle sticks (I think it was actually five, but I'm no longer certain of the exact number).
Then, one-by-one, we were personally escorted along the line by one of the trainers. When we came to each person, we had to stop, look him or her squarely in the eyes, and let that person know whether or not we thought he or she deserved to be in the life-boat.
This was the form for letting him or her know: We had to look him or her squarely in the eyes, say his or her name, and say "You die" or "You live". If we couldn't remember his or her name, we had to say "I didn't care enough about you to learn your name", and then "You die" or "You live". If we said "You live" to a person, we had to give him or her one of our popcycle sticks. But we only had a few.
In Evan's case, there were about forty people in that line. In the Momentus training ex10 and I attended there were about sixty.
Nearly sixty times, we had to stand in front of somebody, look them in the eyes and say "You die". Nearly sixty times, we had to stand there looking somebody square in the eyes and hear them say 'You die". It was bad enough with somebody whose name you couldn't remember... "I didn't care enough about you to learn your name. You die"
It was worse with the people you knew, who you wanted to save but couldn't because you didn't have enough popcycle sticks. "Ex10, you die". "Steve Lortz, you die." In all probability, that's what we said to each other. Not on a computer discussion forum, but eyeball-to-eyeball in real life.
Over... and over... and over... again.
Everyone was melted into tears and bawling before this step of the excercise was done. It was the climax of the emotional abuse.
It was the point Margaret Thaler Singer described,
quote:Day three is usually devoted to exercises, often trance-inducing guided imagery, in which attendees are urged to recall all the disappointments of life since early childhood. Exercises about your mother and father, the promises you've broken, and the promises to you that others have broken - all the sad memories of your life up to now are brought forth. By the end of the third day [by the end of the life-boat exercise - Steve], participants have been opened up psychologically.
That wasn't the end though. Next came the counting of the sticks.
The trainer called out, "Anyone with no sticks, into the water." Those with no sticks stretched out in the middle of the floor, pretending to be dead. We were told to reflect on what our epitaph should be.
"Anyone with only one stick, into the water." And so on, until the number of people still standing matched the capacity of the life-boat.
But the people in the life-boat didn't get off scott free. Once they were in the boat (a row of chairs), each one of us on the floor had to choose one of the survivers, tell him or her what our epithaph should be, and who to deliver it to. The survivors were expected to remember them all, a task they COULDN'T do.
The whole experience was OVERWHELMING. It was designed to be OVERWHELMING. The Momentus trainers deliberately OVERWHELMED us with guilt, grief and remorse. AND IT WORKED. By the end of the life-boat exercise, our emotional circuits were FRIED.
Then Dan, NOT Larry, conducted a de-brief. The de-brief was shocking, too, because Dan wasn't acting the way he had up to that point. He was no longer the vicious ogre trainer, he was an avuncular teddy-bear, explaining to us how important we were, and how we didn't really value ourselves as much as he did. How could we NOT want to believe him, while we were still recovering from such gut-wrenching self devaluation?
Evan wrote, "They very clearly TOLD us what the exercise was about. Namely, showing people when they don't properly value their own lives. IE, people who didn't vote for themselves (which was quite a few) were asked to consider why they didn't value their own life. ie, implying that it's not a good thing. I'm telling you in the words they told us."
That's right, Evan. That IS what Dan told us in the debriefing. But stop and think about it. Because Dan said it, does that mean it's true? How vulnerable had he made us, just before he said those words? Did the actual experience of the exercise enhance our sense of self-worth, or destroy it?
Momentus (under whatever name) pretends to be a "Christian" training. Jesus taught "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). What does the life-boat exercise teach?
Yikes!...Steve, that's quite a detailed explanation about the lifeboat excercise...it matches pretty close to what was told to me by a gal who took it in Houston about 5 or 6 years ago.
I suppose the thing that bothers me the most is that they claim to be a "Christian" based group...Obviously, they are not, and at the very least, that calls into question their basic integrity as an organization.
Wordwolf asked me a question concerning the secrecy and "hazing" that I experienced in my college fraternity. I was in a college fraternity in upstate New York back in 1969! For those of you who are too young to remember, Have you ever seen the movie "Animal House"? I was not in a fraternity based on scholastic achievement or any other high standards...I was in the off campus, party fraternity...These were the days when nobody thought about sueing anybody over fraternity hazing...There was no oversight of any kind from anybody! Things are different today.
Another point to consider...The Momentus folks readily admit that this class is not designed for those who are emotionally unstable and having difficulties in their lives, however, I can see a conflict in the recruiting process...when you consider that it is imperative to "fill all the seats" in order to recoup your financial investment...there is a potential to compormise on the screening process. Case in point...when a certain Momentus class was being put together in Houston about 5 or 6 years ago (the one I declined taking)...There was a certain woman who was initially told that she had was too emotionally unstable and should not take the class...as the "deadline" approached, the good folks running this training program, changed their minds about this woman...suddenly, she was told that they had "reconsidered" her situation and that they now thought that it would be a good idea for her to take it. She took it...she had a nervous breakdown within 2 weeks after becoming a "Momentus grad"...Had to fill the seats dontchaknow...it also explains the SEVERE hostility that was directed my way, when I politely declined to take it. Projecting an image of wanting to help people, when actually it's a money making scheme, puts the whole thing into a category that I call...A SCAM!
Steve, you're still fixating on my as one who is here to defend Momentus. Bullcrap, double bullcrap. All I did was say that I generally dug it and found it helpful. Then you and Mark and WW piled on, demanding detailed explanations and descriptions. Sheesh. Okay, okay, I'll kiss the goat!
Steve, some of your description jibes with my experience, some doesn't. The hooting and jeering were quite absent. In fact, no comments were made until the whole deal was over. Apparently our seminars were different in a number of ways...which can certainly affect one's perception.
BTW, I had a different "trainer", his name was Derek.
Thanks for the detailed description of a typical Momentous training Steve. That was very enlightening. I only wish more people had the honesty, courage and love for people that you show.
Wow, you've got a pretty good memory. And yeah, it happened just as you said. :)-->
The only difference for me was that I knew everyone's name there. :)--> So I didn't have as much of a guilt trip going on as some, I guess. I walked away from it really tired, feeling like "I'm glad that's over. That was tough." And honestly, I haven't thought too much about it since. I guess I missed something, but it wouldn't be the first time. :D-->
Later on one of the people on the team, the one who walked around with me, shared how she had been involved in many trainings, and had never seen anybody know everyone's name. I just said "oh really?" and didn't see any significance in it. Til later when I about discussed it with friends who were there, and then thought about it. I guess a big part of the "pain" of it all, was not knowing names. So maybe I missed something???
I didn't know everybody there before attending, but paid attention, and talked to alot of people. Go figure. I thought the whole thing was about community building.....and the value of each person.....
I guess I should add that a couple of my corps brethern who I knew very well, were in the training with me, and they "killed" me during that exercise. That kinda took me aback, but oh well. --> And I'm not trying to be flippant, but it was just an excersise, in my mind.
A funny thing happened though, we ended up keeping in touch after the training was over, and became very close friends, and still are today. Go figure.
The only thing I was sure about "Momentus" before reading this thread was that I'd most certainly NOT be taking it - as I've vowed a vow to NEVER take any class where the instructor goes looking for me (rather than the other way around).
But now it seems like the popular (and widely discredited) "sensitivity training" of the '70s and early '80s.
What I remember of THAT exercise in pop-psychology is that corporations quit doing it because of the DECREASE in productivity after their top producers took it.
Brash, cocky, even arrogant salespeople all of a sudden had their foundations shaken. Top executives had doubts creep in where there had previously been only hubris. And even mediocre performers were often left with their heads spinning and wondering what was really important anymore.
When the beancounters finally tallied up the score, the results of such mental manipulation wasn't very favorable.
So is Momentus worth it? I dunno. But I'm not gonna expend any great deal of effort to find out.
Funny, though, the feelings I'm getting from Evan and Ex10 are sort of John Wayneish. "Yeah, the training's not for everybody." "Some folks are just too wimpy, too compfy in their mediocre rut in life to test the borders." "But for those of us that could handle it, well, it was pretty good, you know Pilgrim?"
Sorry if I'm misreading you, but that's what it sounds like to me...
Very sad, Steve. And very deceptive. The truth is, no one can predict how they will behave in a crisis like that, anyway. But what a nasty way to condemn people for being unselfish, at least in a theoretical context.
Besides, I for one suck at names. I remember faces, bodies, but one day I can forget a name, and the next I can just as easily remember it. (Lyme has made that even worse.) It doesn't mean I don't care, Dale Carnegie be darned.
The exercise was a red herring. A psychologically dangerous one.
Well, whatever. I'm just telling what my perspective is. I shoulda known better. --> Not everything in my life has some secret, deeper meaning. Maybe that's how I survived the cult. :D-->
I guarantee you, I don't resemble or act like John Wayne at all. ;)--> Sorry if I come across that way.
Present company excluded, a few people I knew who took Momentus had an "I'm soooooo spiritual" attitude as they proclaimed, "I got so much out of it. But it's not for everyone, you know...a lot of people just couldn't handle it."
Like I said at the beginning, I'm not saying or implying that about anyone in this thread. It's based on my face-to-face discussions with Momentus "grads" or whatever you call 'em.
I never had any desire to take it when it was all the buzz among ex-Wayfers...just wasn't remotely interested.
Shaz, I love the phrase you used "psycologically dangerous." You have made me stop and think.....
I think most of what I do in my life these days is "psycologically dangerous." Having 3 teenagers would top my list. Next, would be the job I've taken. Not to belittle what you said at all. I'm being serious.
I'm just thinking......Maybe posting at GS on contraversial threads would be on my list as well. Hmmmm, some of us like to live on the edge, I guess. Stretching one's comfort zone, and taking risks, is ok for some, and maybe not so for others. I guess it all depends on who we are, and where we are in life. There are times when we need to step back, reflect, be introspective. And then there are times when maybe stepping out into the great unknown is good. I guess it just depends............on many things.
I noticed the same thing with the "I'm soooooooo spiritual" attitude. The whole thing started for me, when I reluctantly agreed to attend a CES based fellowship meeting...by the time the meeting was over, I didn't know if I was at a CES fellowship or a Momentus fellowship. Curiously, I watched, as the Momentus grads seperated into their own little click, while the rest of the CES gathered into their group. The recruitment for the upcoming Momentus class was intense...they laid it on me heavy..."life changing", "more powerful than pfal", reaching levels of spirituality never before imagined", "able to leap tall buildings in a single bound", etc. I had never heard of Momentus before and because I exhibited some curiosity, they were on me like hungry dogs on a meat wagon. I was genuinely interested in what this thing was about but had no intention of taking it. I asked a lot of questions about it over a period of time from different "grads"...the things that I began to see were scary. The common thread amoung them was that they all espoused to have reached great heights in spiritual understanding and deliverance...but, they were all (everyone of them!) NEUROTIC as HELL!
There was one man in particular who had sat through Momentus several times and was part of the "team" putting together the next one...we became friends of sorts...he confided to me that he was preparing to confess to his wife that he had had several affairs, to repent from his heart and come clean. He claimed that his guilty conscience of deceit was keeping them from getting as close as they could be in their marriage...repenting this sin to her was the only right thing to do, he said. I tried to talk him out of it...I told him that he was selfish...that he was going to put her through a lot of pain in order to make himself feel better...I reminded him that his affairs had happened nearly ten years ago and were over, and that it would be better to suck it up and simply live with it and not assault his wife with this information. He scoffed at me and told me outright that because I was not a Momentus grad that I simply did not understand. Well, to make a long story short...about 4 months after he "repented his sins" to his wife, she left him and filed for divorce. He was devastated...he lost his wife, his children, his job, his home and his dignity...this all happened because he was living in "Momentus world".
Before somebody else says it, I will...this really happened because he was an adulterer. But nevertheless, I believe that in this situation, his Momentus training led him to make a very wrong decision. I think his "common sense" was clouded by this "doctrine of repentance" that he picked up in his Momentus training. The boy was not thinkin' for himself anymore, if you know what I mean. Some of you may disagree with my analysis of this situation and that's fine...just my opinion.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
21
27
20
32
Popular Days
Jul 16
34
Jul 18
33
Jul 19
26
Jul 14
24
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 21 posts
ex10 27 posts
TheEvan 20 posts
Steve Lortz 32 posts
Popular Days
Jul 16 2004
34 posts
Jul 18 2004
33 posts
Jul 19 2004
26 posts
Jul 14 2004
24 posts
Popular Posts
WordWolf
It's never a good sign when you have to keep changing your group's name so that people don't know who you are. So, "The Revenant Process" and "Blood and Ethos" and "Master Coaches Academy
WordWolf
A) JAL never apologized to anyone about bringing in a harmful program, or shilling a harmful program- which he does to this day. Either he DOESN'T CARE it's a harmful program, or he's such a raving i
socks
They're similar to Scientology in many respects. Scientology has a range of hold-harmless agreements and contracts they use for their various activities. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Scientology/R
Posted Images
Steve Lortz
Considering the hidden agenda of the Momentus trainers, let's review what pjroberg noticed about Momentus' finances in his post of July 17, '04, 09:23 on page 5 of this thread.
The Momentus training cost $150 per head, and the checks were made out to the local sponsors. The piece pjroberg quoted seemed to indicate that the trainers relied on the last session free-will donations for their piece of the pie.
But that wasn't the case.
In his post of July 13, '04, 15:16 on page 1 of this thread, pj posted a link to excultworld.com.
If you click on that link, and then scroll down, you'll find another link to something called "Former Area Sponsor Explains Why She Now Rejects Momentus Training". This is the testimony of Marsha Robbins, who, along with her husband, sponsored three Momentus trainings in the Indianapolis area.
She indicates that she and her husband LOST $6,000 on those three trainings.
The Momentus organization required the local sponsors to pay the cost of the training up front. In return, the local sponsors received the franchise for selling seats in the training. If they could sell more seats than they had contracted for with Momentus, they got to keep the difference.
The last session free-will offerings were PURE GRAVY for the trainers.
However, if the local sponsors failed to fill the seats they had payed for, there were NO refunds.
$6,000 at $150 per seat is 40 seats. Over the course of the three sessions the Robbinses sponsored, their recruitment fell forty seats short of the amount they had paid for.
The hidden agenda of the Momentus trainers was to turn Momentus grads into recruiting machines, something they did with a vengence. They really liked John Lynn.
The latest I read, John was bragging he had gotten 1,200 of his "closest friends" to take Momentus. At $150 a head, John Lynn was responsible for bringing $180,000 into the Momentus coffers. Dan and the other Myshiach leaders would invite him to go golfing, etc., stroking his ego muy mucho. John liked to feel that he was running with the big dogs. I don't know if it's still that way. It seems John would eventually run out of "closest friends".
All for now.
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
ex10 - I don't have any problems with your position on the Momentus training. I myself believe to this day that I received both revelation and some deliverance from the Lord during our Momentus experience. But I have since come to believe that revelation and deliverance were IN SPITE of, rather than because of, Momentus.
I felt much as you do for about sixteen months after the training. But I saw some horrible things going on among the people around me. I prayed for understanding, and when the Lord answered that prayer, He did it big time. For those of us who continue to believe what the Bible says, there are VERY SERIOUS consequences for the foolish, unthinking things we did during Momentus. It's Jeremiah 17:5 stuff.
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
Double post. Sorry
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
the difference is that when a person gets a new job or signs up for military training the agenda and training is explained and the outcome is expected.
the manner in which the momentous training was sold was as a christian thing to grow in the Lord. my pont is I think many where shocked at what it was , ok they could have investigated further blah blah etc. yes.
Yet in fact the endorsement by CES and those who trusted their judgement and reccomendation persuaded some to do it without looking into the thing as much as they would have otherwise .
some felt betrayed by CES when they got hurt this I do understand especialy with the fact anyone who had problems with the training where called unstable or weak and not good enough to handle it by CES the very ones who they trusted to get involved in it .
the training sounds unpredictable by the accounts I have read , CEs did not indicate that it was troublesome to some because it was not trouble some to them , yet as "leaders" to people who are trained and who have obeyed by their own training at their beck and call searching for help in the new cult or out of the old cult I feel CES could have been much more forthcoming about what it was all about and then willing to help those that had issues with it, instead of banning together with the elite that had a good experience and insulting those who did not.
Edited by mj412Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
Some things which personally strike me as peculiar about the "lifeboat" exercise (at least on the basis of what I'm able to gather here), especially if the class was designed to make one a better or more effective Christian.
For instance, what were the main reasons given by people who did not vote themselves to remain on the imaginary lifeboat? Was it from a compulsion of the well-known, traditional Christian virtue of "self-sacrifice" - that they gave up their spot on the boat so that others might live?
Or did the Momentus trainers assert otherwise, in such a way perhaps suggesting that many Christians were actually using the notion of self-sacrifice as an excuse to not care for or value their selves?
Just curious. Thanks.
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
I can't remember, Danny. I do remember I gave up my seat for my wife and one sister. (The other worthless sister I left in the water as shark bait, of course. HAHAHAHA).
Steve, what you said about finances doesn't compute. If Lynn got all those people into the thing, how much of the $150 a head went to the Momentus people. None, according to you. it all went to the local sponsor. Me, I don't know, nor care. But, offhand, it doesn't quite strike me as a cash cow. But if theyr'e still around it must at elast sustain them. I do remember, though, a pretty extravagant appeal for donations at the end of the deal.
We had maybe 40 in ours, Steve.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
(LOL) Omigosh, did you hum the "Jaws" theme for the occassion, and did she ever forgive you?
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outandabout
ok, I took Momentous and I am one of those cases that didn't turn out so well.
I took it because some one I knew who had taken it was zealous to have me take it and strongly encouraged me to go.
I was seeing a psychiatrist at the time and that disqualified me supposedly so I chose not to go but I was informed later that as long as I was not on medication it was ok.
I had had manic episodes in the past but it had been 12 years since the last one and I was seeing the therapist for other reasons.
So I went. I enthusiastically took part in the training, I even did the homework they assigned us that resulted in my lack of sleep because in order to do it you needed to stay up even though we were told to make sure we had enough rest.
Unfortunately, my partaking of the Momentous experience resulted in a manic/psychotic episode that resulted in my being hospitalized. The trainers even came to see me in the mental hospital.
My husband and best friend both feel bitter towards Mementous. Strangely, I haven't held a grudge, though I do wish I'd never been involved.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
out and about
geez that is awful having to be hospitalized after the class.
it is storys like yours which I have heard before and often that makes me very wary of that stuff.
I think they know it does things to peoples mind the storys are common enough why do they not warn people?
what like half goes nuts the other goes away as happy and insprided as two peas in a fresh pod?
I do not get that . somone explain the reason for that and how they would know who is going to have a bad outcome and who is not?
one heck of a chance I say .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
Evan - You wrote, "Steve, what you said about finances doesn't compute. If Lynn got all those people into the thing, how much of the $150 a head went to the Momentus people. None according to you. it all went to the local sponsor."
You need to read more carefully. Here's what I wrote, "The Momentus organization required the local sponsors to pay the cost of the training up front. In return, the local sponsors received the franchise for selling seats in the training."
The local sponsors PAID $150 per projected head BEFORE the Momentus people would even schedule the training. After that, the local sponsors were expected to recoup whatever they could by filling the class.
It was like, if I had been a twig coordinator, and I wanted to run PFAL, I would have had to pay HQ $210 before I could schedule the class. Then, I would be expected to collect $30 from each of the seven new students in order to replace the $210 I had shelled out to HQ. If I signed up nine people instead of seven, I would get to keep the extra money, and I'd be $60 ahead. But if I only signed up four new students, I would lose $90.
That's how the Robbinses lost $6,000 over the course of the three Momentus trainings they sponsored.
Momentus got the money, ALL OF IT, before the trainings were even scheduled. Momentus was, and is (no matter what word they've deceptively changed the title to), nothing more than a cash cow.
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
Danny asked,
Evan may not remember, but I do. Here's how the life-boat exercise went.
It was the last exercise of the day, after we were all worn out. The lights were dimmed. We were told to sit with our eyes closed while Larry Pinci led us through the guided imagery of being on a cruise ship, how wonderful everything was. Then the ship started to sink.
(This just seemed hokey to me. Maybe it was because Larry's delivery wasn't up to snuff. Maybe it was the four years experience I had living on a submarine.)
Next, each one of us had to get up in front of the group (about 60 in our case) and tell what he/she would do, and why. Any attempt to escape by a means other than the life-boat was disallowed by the trainers. Early persons who gave up their seat out of what Danny called the "well-known, traditional Christian virtue of 'self-sacrifice'" were hooted and jeered and mocked by the trainers, so that option suffered an early demise. What the trainers wanted was for everyone to make a pitch as to why he or she personally should be on the boat.
After everyone told what they would do, we were all lined up in a single line around the room walls, facing the center, and we were told to take our name tags off and to pocket them.
Each of us was issued about a half-a-dozen popcycle sticks (I think it was actually five, but I'm no longer certain of the exact number).
Then, one-by-one, we were personally escorted along the line by one of the trainers. When we came to each person, we had to stop, look him or her squarely in the eyes, and let that person know whether or not we thought he or she deserved to be in the life-boat.
This was the form for letting him or her know: We had to look him or her squarely in the eyes, say his or her name, and say "You die" or "You live". If we couldn't remember his or her name, we had to say "I didn't care enough about you to learn your name", and then "You die" or "You live". If we said "You live" to a person, we had to give him or her one of our popcycle sticks. But we only had a few.
In Evan's case, there were about forty people in that line. In the Momentus training ex10 and I attended there were about sixty.
Nearly sixty times, we had to stand in front of somebody, look them in the eyes and say "You die". Nearly sixty times, we had to stand there looking somebody square in the eyes and hear them say 'You die". It was bad enough with somebody whose name you couldn't remember... "I didn't care enough about you to learn your name. You die"
It was worse with the people you knew, who you wanted to save but couldn't because you didn't have enough popcycle sticks. "Ex10, you die". "Steve Lortz, you die." In all probability, that's what we said to each other. Not on a computer discussion forum, but eyeball-to-eyeball in real life.
Over... and over... and over... again.
Everyone was melted into tears and bawling before this step of the excercise was done. It was the climax of the emotional abuse.
It was the point Margaret Thaler Singer described,
That wasn't the end though. Next came the counting of the sticks.
The trainer called out, "Anyone with no sticks, into the water." Those with no sticks stretched out in the middle of the floor, pretending to be dead. We were told to reflect on what our epitaph should be.
"Anyone with only one stick, into the water." And so on, until the number of people still standing matched the capacity of the life-boat.
But the people in the life-boat didn't get off scott free. Once they were in the boat (a row of chairs), each one of us on the floor had to choose one of the survivers, tell him or her what our epithaph should be, and who to deliver it to. The survivors were expected to remember them all, a task they COULDN'T do.
The whole experience was OVERWHELMING. It was designed to be OVERWHELMING. The Momentus trainers deliberately OVERWHELMED us with guilt, grief and remorse. AND IT WORKED. By the end of the life-boat exercise, our emotional circuits were FRIED.
Then Dan, NOT Larry, conducted a de-brief. The de-brief was shocking, too, because Dan wasn't acting the way he had up to that point. He was no longer the vicious ogre trainer, he was an avuncular teddy-bear, explaining to us how important we were, and how we didn't really value ourselves as much as he did. How could we NOT want to believe him, while we were still recovering from such gut-wrenching self devaluation?
Evan wrote, "They very clearly TOLD us what the exercise was about. Namely, showing people when they don't properly value their own lives. IE, people who didn't vote for themselves (which was quite a few) were asked to consider why they didn't value their own life. ie, implying that it's not a good thing. I'm telling you in the words they told us."
That's right, Evan. That IS what Dan told us in the debriefing. But stop and think about it. Because Dan said it, does that mean it's true? How vulnerable had he made us, just before he said those words? Did the actual experience of the exercise enhance our sense of self-worth, or destroy it?
Momentus (under whatever name) pretends to be a "Christian" training. Jesus taught "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). What does the life-boat exercise teach?
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
Yikes!...Steve, that's quite a detailed explanation about the lifeboat excercise...it matches pretty close to what was told to me by a gal who took it in Houston about 5 or 6 years ago.
I suppose the thing that bothers me the most is that they claim to be a "Christian" based group...Obviously, they are not, and at the very least, that calls into question their basic integrity as an organization.
Wordwolf asked me a question concerning the secrecy and "hazing" that I experienced in my college fraternity. I was in a college fraternity in upstate New York back in 1969! For those of you who are too young to remember, Have you ever seen the movie "Animal House"? I was not in a fraternity based on scholastic achievement or any other high standards...I was in the off campus, party fraternity...These were the days when nobody thought about sueing anybody over fraternity hazing...There was no oversight of any kind from anybody! Things are different today.
Another point to consider...The Momentus folks readily admit that this class is not designed for those who are emotionally unstable and having difficulties in their lives, however, I can see a conflict in the recruiting process...when you consider that it is imperative to "fill all the seats" in order to recoup your financial investment...there is a potential to compormise on the screening process. Case in point...when a certain Momentus class was being put together in Houston about 5 or 6 years ago (the one I declined taking)...There was a certain woman who was initially told that she had was too emotionally unstable and should not take the class...as the "deadline" approached, the good folks running this training program, changed their minds about this woman...suddenly, she was told that they had "reconsidered" her situation and that they now thought that it would be a good idea for her to take it. She took it...she had a nervous breakdown within 2 weeks after becoming a "Momentus grad"...Had to fill the seats dontchaknow...it also explains the SEVERE hostility that was directed my way, when I politely declined to take it. Projecting an image of wanting to help people, when actually it's a money making scheme, puts the whole thing into a category that I call...A SCAM!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Steve, you're still fixating on my as one who is here to defend Momentus. Bullcrap, double bullcrap. All I did was say that I generally dug it and found it helpful. Then you and Mark and WW piled on, demanding detailed explanations and descriptions. Sheesh. Okay, okay, I'll kiss the goat!
Steve, some of your description jibes with my experience, some doesn't. The hooting and jeering were quite absent. In fact, no comments were made until the whole deal was over. Apparently our seminars were different in a number of ways...which can certainly affect one's perception.
BTW, I had a different "trainer", his name was Derek.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Thanks for the detailed description of a typical Momentous training Steve. That was very enlightening. I only wish more people had the honesty, courage and love for people that you show.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Steve,
Wow, you've got a pretty good memory. And yeah, it happened just as you said.
:)-->
The only difference for me was that I knew everyone's name there.
:)--> So I didn't have as much of a guilt trip going on as some, I guess. I walked away from it really tired, feeling like "I'm glad that's over. That was tough." And honestly, I haven't thought too much about it since. I guess I missed something, but it wouldn't be the first time. 
:D-->
Later on one of the people on the team, the one who walked around with me, shared how she had been involved in many trainings, and had never seen anybody know everyone's name. I just said "oh really?" and didn't see any significance in it. Til later when I about discussed it with friends who were there, and then thought about it. I guess a big part of the "pain" of it all, was not knowing names. So maybe I missed something???
I didn't know everybody there before attending, but paid attention, and talked to alot of people. Go figure. I thought the whole thing was about community building.....and the value of each person.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
I guess I should add that a couple of my corps brethern who I knew very well, were in the training with me, and they "killed" me during that exercise. That kinda took me aback, but oh well.
--> And I'm not trying to be flippant, but it was just an excersise, in my mind.
A funny thing happened though, we ended up keeping in touch after the training was over, and became very close friends, and still are today. Go figure.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
The only thing I was sure about "Momentus" before reading this thread was that I'd most certainly NOT be taking it - as I've vowed a vow to NEVER take any class where the instructor goes looking for me (rather than the other way around).
But now it seems like the popular (and widely discredited) "sensitivity training" of the '70s and early '80s.
What I remember of THAT exercise in pop-psychology is that corporations quit doing it because of the DECREASE in productivity after their top producers took it.
Brash, cocky, even arrogant salespeople all of a sudden had their foundations shaken. Top executives had doubts creep in where there had previously been only hubris. And even mediocre performers were often left with their heads spinning and wondering what was really important anymore.
When the beancounters finally tallied up the score, the results of such mental manipulation wasn't very favorable.
So is Momentus worth it? I dunno. But I'm not gonna expend any great deal of effort to find out.
Funny, though, the feelings I'm getting from Evan and Ex10 are sort of John Wayneish. "Yeah, the training's not for everybody." "Some folks are just too wimpy, too compfy in their mediocre rut in life to test the borders." "But for those of us that could handle it, well, it was pretty good, you know Pilgrim?"
Sorry if I'm misreading you, but that's what it sounds like to me...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Very sad, Steve. And very deceptive. The truth is, no one can predict how they will behave in a crisis like that, anyway. But what a nasty way to condemn people for being unselfish, at least in a theoretical context.
Besides, I for one suck at names. I remember faces, bodies, but one day I can forget a name, and the next I can just as easily remember it. (Lyme has made that even worse.) It doesn't mean I don't care, Dale Carnegie be darned.
The exercise was a red herring. A psychologically dangerous one.
Regards,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Dear George,
Well, whatever. I'm just telling what my perspective is. I shoulda known better.
--> Not everything in my life has some secret, deeper meaning. Maybe that's how I survived the cult. 
:D-->
I guarantee you, I don't resemble or act like John Wayne at all.
;)--> Sorry if I come across that way.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Well, I don't resemble John Wayne either, but I can see some truth in what Geo says (as usual).
Besides, I *couldn't have the swagger. I lost that, along with the hubris, in my Momentus training, rememeber?
HAHAHAHAHAHA.
Okay, I admit it, this is somehow fun.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Well, and I ain't blond for nuthin. And I have to say, I do look like Donna Reed, as much as I hate to admit it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
Present company excluded, a few people I knew who took Momentus had an "I'm soooooo spiritual" attitude as they proclaimed, "I got so much out of it. But it's not for everyone, you know...a lot of people just couldn't handle it."
Like I said at the beginning, I'm not saying or implying that about anyone in this thread. It's based on my face-to-face discussions with Momentus "grads" or whatever you call 'em.
I never had any desire to take it when it was all the buzz among ex-Wayfers...just wasn't remotely interested.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Shaz, I love the phrase you used "psycologically dangerous." You have made me stop and think.....
I think most of what I do in my life these days is "psycologically dangerous." Having 3 teenagers would top my list. Next, would be the job I've taken. Not to belittle what you said at all. I'm being serious.
I'm just thinking......Maybe posting at GS on contraversial threads would be on my list as well. Hmmmm, some of us like to live on the edge, I guess. Stretching one's comfort zone, and taking risks, is ok for some, and maybe not so for others. I guess it all depends on who we are, and where we are in life. There are times when we need to step back, reflect, be introspective. And then there are times when maybe stepping out into the great unknown is good. I guess it just depends............on many things.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I noticed the same thing with the "I'm soooooooo spiritual" attitude. The whole thing started for me, when I reluctantly agreed to attend a CES based fellowship meeting...by the time the meeting was over, I didn't know if I was at a CES fellowship or a Momentus fellowship. Curiously, I watched, as the Momentus grads seperated into their own little click, while the rest of the CES gathered into their group. The recruitment for the upcoming Momentus class was intense...they laid it on me heavy..."life changing", "more powerful than pfal", reaching levels of spirituality never before imagined", "able to leap tall buildings in a single bound", etc. I had never heard of Momentus before and because I exhibited some curiosity, they were on me like hungry dogs on a meat wagon. I was genuinely interested in what this thing was about but had no intention of taking it. I asked a lot of questions about it over a period of time from different "grads"...the things that I began to see were scary. The common thread amoung them was that they all espoused to have reached great heights in spiritual understanding and deliverance...but, they were all (everyone of them!) NEUROTIC as HELL!
There was one man in particular who had sat through Momentus several times and was part of the "team" putting together the next one...we became friends of sorts...he confided to me that he was preparing to confess to his wife that he had had several affairs, to repent from his heart and come clean. He claimed that his guilty conscience of deceit was keeping them from getting as close as they could be in their marriage...repenting this sin to her was the only right thing to do, he said. I tried to talk him out of it...I told him that he was selfish...that he was going to put her through a lot of pain in order to make himself feel better...I reminded him that his affairs had happened nearly ten years ago and were over, and that it would be better to suck it up and simply live with it and not assault his wife with this information. He scoffed at me and told me outright that because I was not a Momentus grad that I simply did not understand. Well, to make a long story short...about 4 months after he "repented his sins" to his wife, she left him and filed for divorce. He was devastated...he lost his wife, his children, his job, his home and his dignity...this all happened because he was living in "Momentus world".
Before somebody else says it, I will...this really happened because he was an adulterer. But nevertheless, I believe that in this situation, his Momentus training led him to make a very wrong decision. I think his "common sense" was clouded by this "doctrine of repentance" that he picked up in his Momentus training. The boy was not thinkin' for himself anymore, if you know what I mean. Some of you may disagree with my analysis of this situation and that's fine...just my opinion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.