I'm trying to think of any religion with a code of silence that was up to anything good. It's certainly their right but it guarantees I'll never go near it.
It may be reasonable to assume that, despite the number of martyrs, some early Christians remained silent for fear of the threats upon their lives during periods of intense persecution; while others such as the gnostic movements regarded themselves as having attained a higher gnosis incomprehensible to their lowly, brotherly mortals.
Now the latter assumption may not be entirely accurate, considering that much information concerning the gnostics come to us through the writings of their critics. With some of these groups one wishes to possess writings that come expressed from their perspective. Unfortunately, the historian has little recourse but to depend upon the critics to gather information in order to reconstruct their opponents' ideas and intents.
So the historian is put into the position: how much of this stuff is true, and how much of it is exaggerated? How much reported is fact, and how much is fiction?
If one doesn't hear more from the Pro-Momentians, then that leaves us with only the critical voices to reconstruct this theology/philosophy/whatever-the-hell-it-is.
And that's not going to make my great, great,great,great,great brethren-historians all too happy.
And what's even worse - if Momentus truly does offer some type of key to the universe (or whatever), that secret may become lost forever. Do you really want to deprive my future, starving great-great-great-great-great mutant one-eyed children historians of that? :(-->
Good Lord Wolf & Mark, you're making some hefty ASSumptions about me, aren't you? I simply came in to report that my sisters & wife & I "liked it". I feel no need to discuss my experience because I simply don't care enough about it to get into a discussion.
If you read my posts on this thread, I've not defended Momentus once, and I won't. I simply shared my experience. But I've sure had to defend myself against all kinds of ridiculous accusations.
My wife & my sisters & I did it. We really dug it. But it's certainly not for everybody. Certainly not for neurotic people...that's what mental health professionals are for...
My observation is that few people put wheels on what they learn there. Seems most people 'have an experience' and then just return to their previous lives without making changes. Too bad...
Hm.
Technically speaking, he's right. Technically speaking, Evan did NOT
"defend" Momentus.
Evan "attacked" any criticism of Momentus.
1) it's a bad idea if your neurotic and need a therapist.
(What does that suggest about the people who had problems with
Momentus? Is this meant to suggest that all criticism is the result
of the person having psychological problems before going in, and all
the healthy people do just peachy? The implication is too weak to
state directly, but I think it's there. What do you people think
"..It's certainly not for everybody...certainly not for neurotic
people...that's what mental health professionals are for..."
means?
2) Less than stellar reports come from people who fail to apply what
they learn there. Too bad...
What is this meant to suggest?
Does this mean that Momentus is peachy, but if you don't apply it, THEN
you'll have problems? If that's not what it means, what is this meant
to say?
"..few people put wheels on what they learn there. Seems most people
'have an experience' and then just return to their previous lives
without making changes. Too bad..."
That's what I'm getting from this-anyone else besides me and Evan?
That would imply a defense of Momentus, but it's too nebulous and fuzzy
I would really appreciate some more specific testimonies from the people that have taken Momentous, both pro and con. This is not from an arrogant, accusative position or intended to ridicule, slight or put down any contributions to this thread.
It may be to hard to be specific, or possibly too personal to be shared. Reading what harm the program did and comparing to what good others came away with could help us make a better judgement concerning the program.
Just remember WW, the Word of Evan is the Will of Evan. Evan has a purpose for everything he says and how he says it and all that jazz. Remember to read what's written. Oh, and previous usage. And all that other stuff. Ans let's not EVEN go to figurines of speech.
Spare us your PFAL flashback and instead please give us some specific examples of what you liked about Momentous from what actually occured during the class that you took. A number of posters want to know. Even Grizzy wants to know and he normally agrees with you.
"after you get in the class, it starts off with a manipulative introductory session in which you're plunged into darkness and treated to loud, swelling (and, ultimately, nearly deafening) music that seems designed to assault your senses and play with your emotions."
"much of the music played during the training, at deafening volumes, to assail our senses and, with the lack of sleep and constant harassment we experienced, put us in a state of extreme susceptibility - -or what many would describe as a state of altered consciousness.) Then comes a dramatic reading from some introductory material, interspersed with a few almost unrecognizable verses from the Message, a bible version that I personally find nearly impossible to reconcile with any other version of Scripture I've ever studied. Having taken enough psychology and theater courses in college, I quickly recognized (to my surprise, at that point) that the purpose of this opening was probably to unsettle us emotionally"
"After this opening, the trainers ran us through the "ground rules" for the training (one of its holdovers from est and Lifespring) and required us to sign an agreement to abide by these rules. We were also required to sign a "hold harmless" agreement, asserting that we'd been "adequately informed" of what the training consisted of and that no matter what happened to us in (or as a result of) the training -- including death -- we'd hold the trainers and the sponsors harmless."
"one girl we know who served on the training crew for a later Momentus told us how the trainers issued vomit bags to the crew -- because they expected some people taking the training to become violently ill during some of the exercises"
"Much like how many cultic brainwashers operate (and some deprogrammers who use similar methods), the trainers spent the first two days tearing us down through verbal abuse and exercises with no real point other than to get us to take our focus off of God and the Lord Jesus and put it onto ourselves.We were required to make commitments to what we wanted to "cause" in others "
"The first two days of the training ended with the "Lifeboat" exercise, in which we were forced to condemn our brothers and sisters to "life or death." Who "lived" and who "died" depended on who we voted into the lifeboat after a New Age-like visualization session in which we were on a cruise ship that suddenly started sinking. The lesson that the exercise actually taught was that only those who live the kind of life the world values -- the loud, aggressive, pushy, hey-listen- to- me- and-forget- about-you types of personalities, who attract lots of attention to themselves (as some had in the training thus far)--would end up in the lifeboat and be saved. Those exhibiting such traits as meekness, humility, self-denial -- in short, any traits that failed to bring lots of attention to themselves (including those the Word of God exhorts us to exhibit) -- ended up in the water, "dead." We then had to give our "epitaphs" from our watery graves about how worthless we were. "
"We were required early on to choose a buddy to "watch over" during the training. If anyone left, we were told, their buddy had to leave, too. This turned out to be an outright lie, as several people did leave the training and yet their buddies were always allowed to stay--but not before being subjected to serious condemnation and verbal abuse for not somehow forcing their buddies to stay through the entire training. I could not have allowed that to happen to my buddy -- or to anyone else -- if I could prevent it. So I stayed."
"Because a few people didn't complete the first night's homework assignment as thoroughly as required--writing only a page and a half instead of two pages, for example -- the trainer, in what appeared to be a fit of anger, said that he was ending the training. The only way he'd let us complete it, he asserted, was if we all got together and pressured [or "persuaded," as he mischaracterized it] those who hadn't done the homework as required to agree to finish it during that day. "
"Of course, by this point, we did as he required, and the training continued. I later learned from the girl who served on the training crew for the next Momentus in Indianapolis, however, that this charade was all part of the "script" for the training. The trainer for that class did the same thing, but after he returned to the room, some of the trainees still hadn't agreed to finish their homework--so he had to leave the room again to "give them more time."
"The training would have continued regardless -- this was apparently just another exercise to get the group in on helping the trainers control others in the training through peer pressure."
"We continued with the training, thinking the worst was over. But more was to come, though the pressure was subtler, the manipulation less obvious. On these days, we grouped in circles in the darkness to "confess our sins" to the trainers as they ran down a litany of sins, to which we were to raise our hands if guilty, while weeping and wailing in the darkness."
In an earlier post I made a comparison to the Momentus training and eating LSD. I was actually serious. LSD was an "enlightening" experience for many and a "nightmare" for many. A lot of it depended on the "state of mind" of the individual consuming it. Although I would never recommend it to anyone, I do think there is a potential for good in it, under the proper circumstances. Therein lies the similarity to Momentus. Whether it's good or bad for someone, my objection is the "hold harmless" form that must be signed.
It has been explained to me that the "surprise element" of the training, is essential in order for it to be effective. Sorta like...if I jump out from behind a tree and yell "BOO", it would scare you a lot more if you did not know that I was behind the tree...When I was a part of a college fraternity, our initiation was kept secret from the new "recruits"...the secrecy element was actually more effective in un-nerving people, than any other thing we did to the new pledges. OK...but is this REALLY a Christian ministering technique? The training sounds a lot like "new age psycho- therapy" and I find it offensive that they do it under a Christian banner.
...and again, NOBODY has answered my question:
If Momentus is recruiting folks into a "traing program", and keeping the details a secret, are they morally right to avoid responsibility for those who are harmed in the training? I understand that when a person signs a "hold harmless" agreement, there is a legal out for the Momentus folks...but if they are indeed Christian...should not they be morally responsible?
I am not even addressing the issue of whether it is a "good" thing or a " bad" thing. I simply would like to have my question concerning responsibility answered.
I hear ya, and you do raise a good point. Personally, I cannot speak to your concern or address it, because I don't feel qualified. I only have my experience, and that's it. I was never involed on any deeper level.
And honestly, I was just a participant who went, gleaned what I could from it, and moved on. I didn't personally know anybody (I mean from aside people met at the training) that had issues resulting from the experience. Most of the other people I know that went, feel the same way I do. :)-->
Frankly, I don't see what all the hubbub is about. Before the way, I was involved in some Catholic "retreats" base on the Cursillo movement, and Momentous wasn't that different from my experiences in the Catholic church, to me.
I know it's a new thing to some. But trust me, these kinds of "retreats" and "trainings" have been around for awhile. If anybody wants to do a Google search, be my guest. Momentous is very similiar to the Cursillo experience. I understand why those of the more "fundamentalist" Christian persuasion, would have problems with it. Especially those of us from TWI, who were taught that the studying the bible will cure all of life's ills. (Tongue planted firmly in cheek, here.)
And no, I'm not challenging anybody's opinions about it. I have mine, you have yours. :)-->
It has occurred to me, though, that maybe it's just a religious/philosophical difference in our approaches to life that fuels the controversy, more than anything else.
Hmmm. Well, maybe all of the barf bags and stuff is just to build an impression of the enormity of what's about to happen. Sort of a carny rap:
"Ladeeez and gentlemen, what you are about to see beyond these curtains is not for the faint of heart! We ask that children under 12, please leave now! Nothing that has come before and nothing that will come hence is like unto this! Men, remove your belts, wallets, watches and any metal objects in your pockets, please! and place them in the baskets attendants are passing around even as I speak! They will be returned to you! Women, your handbags and satchels may be placed in the baskets at the door! Please take note of the registered nurses to the left and right and mark their faces, for if you require medical attention they will be there for you! We cannot be held in blame if you suffer mental or phsyical astoundment from the incredibly unexpected enormity of what...you...are about...to see! And now.................................
on with the show!!!!
Or maybe not. Athough it's seems really weird. People complain they were made to listen to all sorts of horrible Way music oh my god it's killin' me, and then turn around and, well..... I'm lost.
Okay, the picture I derive from Bill Barton's Momentus experience posted by pjroberge, with the personal/subjective opinions removed and re-edited in an attempt to form an unbiased picture of what actually goes on in these classes:
1. The class starts off with an introductory session in which [the lights are turned out?] and [students are] treated to loud music (much of the music played during the training [is played] at [very loud] volumes.)
2.Then comes a dramatic reading from some introductory material, interspersed with a few verses from the [bible version] the Message.
3.After this opening, the trainers cite "ground rules" for the training, and require students to sign an agreement to abide by these rules. Students were also required to sign a "hold harmless" agreement, asserting that they'd been "adequately informed" of what the training consisted of and that _no matter what happened to them in (or as a result of) the training -- including death -- they'd hold the trainers and the sponsors harmless."_ Rumor has it that later Momentus trainers issued vomit bags to the crew _-- because they expected some people taking the training to become violently ill during some of the exercises.
4. The trainers spent the first two days [breaking] down students through verbal abuse and exercises.
5. The students were required to make commitments to what they wanted to "cause" in others
6. The first two days of the training ended with the "Lifeboat" exercise, in which students were forced to condemn their classmates to "life or death." Who "lived" and who "died" depended on who they voted into the lifeboat [following] a visualization session in which they were on a cruise ship that suddenly started sinking.
The exercise taught that only [extroverts?] would end up in the lifeboat and be saved. [introverts?] ended up in the water, "dead." Students then had to give their "epitaphs" from their watery graves about how worthless they were.
7. Students were required early on to choose a buddy to "watch over" during the training. If anyone left, they were told, their buddy had to leave, too. This [didn't actually happen], as several people did leave the training and yet their buddies were always allowed to stay--but not before being subjected to serious condemnation and verbal abuse for not somehow forcing their buddies to stay through the entire training.
8. Because a few people didn't complete the first night's homework assignment as required--writing only a page and a half instead of two pages, for example -- the trainer [emphatically with a hint of anger] said that he was ending the training. The only way he'd let students complete it, he asserted, was if they all got together and persuaded those who hadn't done the homework as required to agree to finish it during that day.
Rumor has it that this was all part of the "script" for the training. The trainer for that class did the same thing, but after he returned to the room, some of the trainees still hadn't agreed to finish their homework--so he had to leave the room again to "give them more time." The training would have continued regardless.
9. So the training continued. Students grouped in circles [in a darkened room] to "confess their sins" to the trainers as they ran down a litany of sins, to which they were to raise their hands if guilty, with some weeping in the process.
10. Later in the circle groups, babies are sacrificed, with their blood drained into their decapitated skullcaps and passed around in a circle for students to sup, signifying their full initiation into the secret society of Momentus.
(heh-heh, only kidding!)
So is this a fairly accurate picture of what goes on in all the classes?
Again, I'm only dependant upon the critical reports of experiences here for details...
okay, i am against confessing my sins to the trainers
i've done it to the stinking priest, i've done it to the stinking wierwille, i've been forced to eat sheet in front of my "peers" in the stupid way "ministry"
i've had enough
i'm very selective
nice thing about shrinks they don't judge your f'd upness - and it's a safe environment - well if you get the right head guru
You asked a great question. And my answer is .....drum roll, please, "neither." :D-->
For me, and I repeat, for me, sharing what I learned in Momentous would be like sharing what I've learned in counseling or therapy, or in intimate conversations with my close friends and family, or maybe even in interactions with my beloved husband. Not that it was that for me, the point is, it was VERY PERSONAL, nobody's business, and mine alone not to share. :)--> Boundaries, ya know?
How incisive you are! I think what you said was a big part of it.
PS Danny
Thanks for the synopsis. Yeah, it was that without the "abuse" part. Nobody was abused, that I saw. It was just a series of "exercises" for Pete's sake, meant to build community and offer feedback for anybody who wanted it. Cripes, it was just a freaking "training." That alone idicates it wasn't real life. :D--> Sheesh. If somebody thought it was more than that, well, whatever, I'm so sorry. :(-->
Please pick either A-Because this thread seems so "negative" or B-Is it because of what you promised when you took the momentus class ? :D--> :D--> :D--> Ha ha ha!!! Inquiring minds need to know.
I've started a new job. I'm going through 5 weeks of intensive "training." It's alot of hours, and us trainess, aka inmates, :D--> fondly refer to it as "boot camp."
Part of our training is doing role playing exercises and getting feedback from the group. Not a new concept in "corporate training," I must admit. But, what I'm going through is definely NOT for the faint of heart. If you can't stand seeing your own weaknesses, as well as strengths, then get another job. :)--> This company is probably not for you.
Harsh, yes. Some might say.
Actually, we've already had 2 out of 8 candidates drop out. And I'm sure that they have plenty to say about their experience. Too demanding, people are too critical, whatever.
I'm not trying to belittle anyone who has posted here, or who has a different perspective. I'm just saying, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Not everybody would wanna do my job. But I like it, and want to be the best I can possibly be. :)-->
Yeah, sisex, I understand (I think) where you are coming from. ;)-->
I also have a personal policy of relating only my feelings and experiences. I guess it comes from my counseling background, but I don't think it's fair for me to try to describe the overall experience except from my very personal point of view.
Sure, I have my opinons of what happened to other people who were in my particular training, but my lips are sealed. :)--> It would be a breach of confidence for me to do otherwise. Not because of any silly Momentous agreement, just because I respect others.
Maybe it's just my morals, but hey, that's what it is for me. I really don't want to belittle what anyone else has said, or feels, or took away from the whole thing. That just wouldn't be considerate, or Christian, or whatever you want to call it.
I ain't no expert, and if somebody else feels like it's a really bad thing, then they gotta express themselves. I won't argue with that.
Danny, you are hilarious! My experience did not follow barton's. First of all, confession was private. Totally. They made an extra large point of that.
You mention readings. I remember there being a good bit of Kirkegaard, pretty literate stuff for an abject brainwashing, don't you think?
I don't remember signing anything on the ground rules, but my memory may be fuzzy on that one. Regardless, the point of it was agonizingly clear (as is the case in these things, some people were, well, dense)
I think the first two or three days are meant to break down defenses, but I wouldn't charachterize anything I heard as verbal abuse. some of it was very 'challenging', though.
The homework was ridiculous. There was so much it pretty much insured that at least SOEMBODY couldn't finish.
Actually, the point of the lifeboat exercise was to show people that they don't properly value their own lives. I can't imagine anybody disagreeing with me on that.
The "buddy" thing: I don't remember the 'lose one & other is out stipulation'. I don't think that was mentioned in mine. But Barton missed the better part: You're asked to choose a 'buddy' based on the person least attractive/most annoying/etc to you. Well, damn, there wasn't anybody I felt like that about yet. (don't worry mark, I would've chosen you quick! hahahahaha) i just wandered around until I found somebody else wandering around and we became buddies.
I must say, it was like taking a huge emotional crap. Nothing wrong with that. I've slept better since, the tick in my face went away, and (much more importantly), I've given much more of myself to my family since then.
And yeah, the LSD comaprison fits well.
Mark, I didn't answer you questions because you've been such a dweeb. See, that's the Momentus training rising up in me and *making me be "honest". HAHAHAHAHA. :P-->
quote:I don't remember signing anything on the ground rules, but my memory may be fuzzy on that one. Regardless, the point of it was agonizingly clear (as is the case in these things, some people were, well, dense)
dense ? not nice evan
and you are a shepherd of "god's people"
like i said before, i am glad for you and what happened in your personal life
still there is nothing wrong with people honestly questioning, you know.....
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
21
27
20
32
Popular Days
Jul 16
34
Jul 18
33
Jul 19
26
Jul 14
24
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 21 posts
ex10 27 posts
TheEvan 20 posts
Steve Lortz 32 posts
Popular Days
Jul 16 2004
34 posts
Jul 18 2004
33 posts
Jul 19 2004
26 posts
Jul 14 2004
24 posts
Popular Posts
WordWolf
It's never a good sign when you have to keep changing your group's name so that people don't know who you are. So, "The Revenant Process" and "Blood and Ethos" and "Master Coaches Academy
WordWolf
A) JAL never apologized to anyone about bringing in a harmful program, or shilling a harmful program- which he does to this day. Either he DOESN'T CARE it's a harmful program, or he's such a raving i
socks
They're similar to Scientology in many respects. Scientology has a range of hold-harmless agreements and contracts they use for their various activities. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Scientology/R
Posted Images
TheInvisibleDan
It may be reasonable to assume that, despite the number of martyrs, some early Christians remained silent for fear of the threats upon their lives during periods of intense persecution; while others such as the gnostic movements regarded themselves as having attained a higher gnosis incomprehensible to their lowly, brotherly mortals.
Now the latter assumption may not be entirely accurate, considering that much information concerning the gnostics come to us through the writings of their critics. With some of these groups one wishes to possess writings that come expressed from their perspective. Unfortunately, the historian has little recourse but to depend upon the critics to gather information in order to reconstruct their opponents' ideas and intents.
So the historian is put into the position: how much of this stuff is true, and how much of it is exaggerated? How much reported is fact, and how much is fiction?
If one doesn't hear more from the Pro-Momentians, then that leaves us with only the critical voices to reconstruct this theology/philosophy/whatever-the-hell-it-is.
And that's not going to make my great, great,great,great,great brethren-historians all too happy.
And what's even worse - if Momentus truly does offer some type of key to the universe (or whatever), that secret may become lost forever. Do you really want to deprive my future, starving great-great-great-great-great mutant one-eyed children historians of that?
:(-->
Of course you don't ....
;)-->
Unless you hate children....
And you don't REALLY hate children,
DO YOU?
:o-->
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Good Lord Wolf & Mark, you're making some hefty ASSumptions about me, aren't you? I simply came in to report that my sisters & wife & I "liked it". I feel no need to discuss my experience because I simply don't care enough about it to get into a discussion.
If you read my posts on this thread, I've not defended Momentus once, and I won't. I simply shared my experience. But I've sure had to defend myself against all kinds of ridiculous accusations.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Hm.
Technically speaking, he's right. Technically speaking, Evan did NOT
"defend" Momentus.
Evan "attacked" any criticism of Momentus.
1) it's a bad idea if your neurotic and need a therapist.
(What does that suggest about the people who had problems with
Momentus? Is this meant to suggest that all criticism is the result
of the person having psychological problems before going in, and all
the healthy people do just peachy? The implication is too weak to
state directly, but I think it's there. What do you people think
"..It's certainly not for everybody...certainly not for neurotic
people...that's what mental health professionals are for..."
means?
2) Less than stellar reports come from people who fail to apply what
they learn there. Too bad...
What is this meant to suggest?
Does this mean that Momentus is peachy, but if you don't apply it, THEN
you'll have problems? If that's not what it means, what is this meant
to say?
"..few people put wheels on what they learn there. Seems most people
'have an experience' and then just return to their previous lives
without making changes. Too bad..."
That's what I'm getting from this-anyone else besides me and Evan?
That would imply a defense of Momentus, but it's too nebulous and fuzzy
to phrase it as a statement.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Grizzy
I would really appreciate some more specific testimonies from the people that have taken Momentous, both pro and con. This is not from an arrogant, accusative position or intended to ridicule, slight or put down any contributions to this thread.
It may be to hard to be specific, or possibly too personal to be shared. Reading what harm the program did and comparing to what good others came away with could help us make a better judgement concerning the program.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pjroberge
To the Momentus grads on this thread:
Why don't we start with posting how you feel about your Momentus experience, specifically the lifeboat exercise for starters?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Just remember WW, the Word of Evan is the Will of Evan. Evan has a purpose for everything he says and how he says it and all that jazz. Remember to read what's written. Oh, and previous usage. And all that other stuff. Ans let's not EVEN go to figurines of speech.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
"Figurines of speech"?
Aren't they what you usually find at flea markets and such? ... and for about $1.25?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Evan:
Spare us your PFAL flashback and instead please give us some specific examples of what you liked about Momentous from what actually occured during the class that you took. A number of posters want to know. Even Grizzy wants to know and he normally agrees with you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pjroberge
Exerpts from Bill Barton's story about his Momentus training: Part 1
http://www.excultworld.com/momentus/Barton.htm
"after you get in the class, it starts off with a manipulative introductory session in which you're plunged into darkness and treated to loud, swelling (and, ultimately, nearly deafening) music that seems designed to assault your senses and play with your emotions."
"much of the music played during the training, at deafening volumes, to assail our senses and, with the lack of sleep and constant harassment we experienced, put us in a state of extreme susceptibility - -or what many would describe as a state of altered consciousness.) Then comes a dramatic reading from some introductory material, interspersed with a few almost unrecognizable verses from the Message, a bible version that I personally find nearly impossible to reconcile with any other version of Scripture I've ever studied. Having taken enough psychology and theater courses in college, I quickly recognized (to my surprise, at that point) that the purpose of this opening was probably to unsettle us emotionally"
"After this opening, the trainers ran us through the "ground rules" for the training (one of its holdovers from est and Lifespring) and required us to sign an agreement to abide by these rules. We were also required to sign a "hold harmless" agreement, asserting that we'd been "adequately informed" of what the training consisted of and that no matter what happened to us in (or as a result of) the training -- including death -- we'd hold the trainers and the sponsors harmless."
"one girl we know who served on the training crew for a later Momentus told us how the trainers issued vomit bags to the crew -- because they expected some people taking the training to become violently ill during some of the exercises"
"Much like how many cultic brainwashers operate (and some deprogrammers who use similar methods), the trainers spent the first two days tearing us down through verbal abuse and exercises with no real point other than to get us to take our focus off of God and the Lord Jesus and put it onto ourselves.We were required to make commitments to what we wanted to "cause" in others "
"The first two days of the training ended with the "Lifeboat" exercise, in which we were forced to condemn our brothers and sisters to "life or death." Who "lived" and who "died" depended on who we voted into the lifeboat after a New Age-like visualization session in which we were on a cruise ship that suddenly started sinking. The lesson that the exercise actually taught was that only those who live the kind of life the world values -- the loud, aggressive, pushy, hey-listen- to- me- and-forget- about-you types of personalities, who attract lots of attention to themselves (as some had in the training thus far)--would end up in the lifeboat and be saved. Those exhibiting such traits as meekness, humility, self-denial -- in short, any traits that failed to bring lots of attention to themselves (including those the Word of God exhorts us to exhibit) -- ended up in the water, "dead." We then had to give our "epitaphs" from our watery graves about how worthless we were. "
"We were required early on to choose a buddy to "watch over" during the training. If anyone left, we were told, their buddy had to leave, too. This turned out to be an outright lie, as several people did leave the training and yet their buddies were always allowed to stay--but not before being subjected to serious condemnation and verbal abuse for not somehow forcing their buddies to stay through the entire training. I could not have allowed that to happen to my buddy -- or to anyone else -- if I could prevent it. So I stayed."
"Because a few people didn't complete the first night's homework assignment as thoroughly as required--writing only a page and a half instead of two pages, for example -- the trainer, in what appeared to be a fit of anger, said that he was ending the training. The only way he'd let us complete it, he asserted, was if we all got together and pressured [or "persuaded," as he mischaracterized it] those who hadn't done the homework as required to agree to finish it during that day. "
"Of course, by this point, we did as he required, and the training continued. I later learned from the girl who served on the training crew for the next Momentus in Indianapolis, however, that this charade was all part of the "script" for the training. The trainer for that class did the same thing, but after he returned to the room, some of the trainees still hadn't agreed to finish their homework--so he had to leave the room again to "give them more time."
"The training would have continued regardless -- this was apparently just another exercise to get the group in on helping the trainers control others in the training through peer pressure."
"We continued with the training, thinking the worst was over. But more was to come, though the pressure was subtler, the manipulation less obvious. On these days, we grouped in circles in the darkness to "confess our sins" to the trainers as they ran down a litany of sins, to which we were to raise our hands if guilty, while weeping and wailing in the darkness."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Somehow this thread has not inspired me to "share" my Momentous experience.
I have found it a futile endeavor to argue with people's personal experiences in life.
:D-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
In an earlier post I made a comparison to the Momentus training and eating LSD. I was actually serious. LSD was an "enlightening" experience for many and a "nightmare" for many. A lot of it depended on the "state of mind" of the individual consuming it. Although I would never recommend it to anyone, I do think there is a potential for good in it, under the proper circumstances. Therein lies the similarity to Momentus. Whether it's good or bad for someone, my objection is the "hold harmless" form that must be signed.
It has been explained to me that the "surprise element" of the training, is essential in order for it to be effective. Sorta like...if I jump out from behind a tree and yell "BOO", it would scare you a lot more if you did not know that I was behind the tree...When I was a part of a college fraternity, our initiation was kept secret from the new "recruits"...the secrecy element was actually more effective in un-nerving people, than any other thing we did to the new pledges. OK...but is this REALLY a Christian ministering technique? The training sounds a lot like "new age psycho- therapy" and I find it offensive that they do it under a Christian banner.
...and again, NOBODY has answered my question:
If Momentus is recruiting folks into a "traing program", and keeping the details a secret, are they morally right to avoid responsibility for those who are harmed in the training? I understand that when a person signs a "hold harmless" agreement, there is a legal out for the Momentus folks...but if they are indeed Christian...should not they be morally responsible?
I am not even addressing the issue of whether it is a "good" thing or a " bad" thing. I simply would like to have my question concerning responsibility answered.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Uncle Hairy
I hear ya, and you do raise a good point. Personally, I cannot speak to your concern or address it, because I don't feel qualified. I only have my experience, and that's it. I was never involed on any deeper level.
And honestly, I was just a participant who went, gleaned what I could from it, and moved on. I didn't personally know anybody (I mean from aside people met at the training) that had issues resulting from the experience. Most of the other people I know that went, feel the same way I do.
:)-->
Frankly, I don't see what all the hubbub is about. Before the way, I was involved in some Catholic "retreats" base on the Cursillo movement, and Momentous wasn't that different from my experiences in the Catholic church, to me.
I know it's a new thing to some. But trust me, these kinds of "retreats" and "trainings" have been around for awhile. If anybody wants to do a Google search, be my guest. Momentous is very similiar to the Cursillo experience. I understand why those of the more "fundamentalist" Christian persuasion, would have problems with it. Especially those of us from TWI, who were taught that the studying the bible will cure all of life's ills. (Tongue planted firmly in cheek, here.)
And no, I'm not challenging anybody's opinions about it. I have mine, you have yours.
:)-->
It has occurred to me, though, that maybe it's just a religious/philosophical difference in our approaches to life that fuels the controversy, more than anything else.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Hmmm. Well, maybe all of the barf bags and stuff is just to build an impression of the enormity of what's about to happen. Sort of a carny rap:
"Ladeeez and gentlemen, what you are about to see beyond these curtains is not for the faint of heart! We ask that children under 12, please leave now! Nothing that has come before and nothing that will come hence is like unto this! Men, remove your belts, wallets, watches and any metal objects in your pockets, please! and place them in the baskets attendants are passing around even as I speak! They will be returned to you! Women, your handbags and satchels may be placed in the baskets at the door! Please take note of the registered nurses to the left and right and mark their faces, for if you require medical attention they will be there for you! We cannot be held in blame if you suffer mental or phsyical astoundment from the incredibly unexpected enormity of what...you...are about...to see! And now.................................
on with the show!!!!
Or maybe not. Athough it's seems really weird. People complain they were made to listen to all sorts of horrible Way music oh my god it's killin' me, and then turn around and, well..... I'm lost.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
Okay, the picture I derive from Bill Barton's Momentus experience posted by pjroberge, with the personal/subjective opinions removed and re-edited in an attempt to form an unbiased picture of what actually goes on in these classes:
1. The class starts off with an introductory session in which [the lights are turned out?] and [students are] treated to loud music (much of the music played during the training [is played] at [very loud] volumes.)
2.Then comes a dramatic reading from some introductory material, interspersed with a few verses from the [bible version] the Message.
3.After this opening, the trainers cite "ground rules" for the training, and require students to sign an agreement to abide by these rules. Students were also required to sign a "hold harmless" agreement, asserting that they'd been "adequately informed" of what the training consisted of and that _no matter what happened to them in (or as a result of) the training -- including death -- they'd hold the trainers and the sponsors harmless."_ Rumor has it that later Momentus trainers issued vomit bags to the crew _-- because they expected some people taking the training to become violently ill during some of the exercises.
4. The trainers spent the first two days [breaking] down students through verbal abuse and exercises.
5. The students were required to make commitments to what they wanted to "cause" in others
6. The first two days of the training ended with the "Lifeboat" exercise, in which students were forced to condemn their classmates to "life or death." Who "lived" and who "died" depended on who they voted into the lifeboat [following] a visualization session in which they were on a cruise ship that suddenly started sinking.
The exercise taught that only [extroverts?] would end up in the lifeboat and be saved. [introverts?] ended up in the water, "dead." Students then had to give their "epitaphs" from their watery graves about how worthless they were.
7. Students were required early on to choose a buddy to "watch over" during the training. If anyone left, they were told, their buddy had to leave, too. This [didn't actually happen], as several people did leave the training and yet their buddies were always allowed to stay--but not before being subjected to serious condemnation and verbal abuse for not somehow forcing their buddies to stay through the entire training.
8. Because a few people didn't complete the first night's homework assignment as required--writing only a page and a half instead of two pages, for example -- the trainer [emphatically with a hint of anger] said that he was ending the training. The only way he'd let students complete it, he asserted, was if they all got together and persuaded those who hadn't done the homework as required to agree to finish it during that day.
Rumor has it that this was all part of the "script" for the training. The trainer for that class did the same thing, but after he returned to the room, some of the trainees still hadn't agreed to finish their homework--so he had to leave the room again to "give them more time." The training would have continued regardless.
9. So the training continued. Students grouped in circles [in a darkened room] to "confess their sins" to the trainers as they ran down a litany of sins, to which they were to raise their hands if guilty, with some weeping in the process.
10. Later in the circle groups, babies are sacrificed, with their blood drained into their decapitated skullcaps and passed around in a circle for students to sup, signifying their full initiation into the secret society of Momentus.
(heh-heh, only kidding!)
So is this a fairly accurate picture of what goes on in all the classes?
Again, I'm only dependant upon the critical reports of experiences here for details...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
evan and ex10 (and you know i think A LOT of you both) -
are you hesitant to share because this thread seems so "negative" or is it because of what you promised when you took the momentus class ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
okay, i am against confessing my sins to the trainers
i've done it to the stinking priest, i've done it to the stinking wierwille, i've been forced to eat sheet in front of my "peers" in the stupid way "ministry"
i've had enough
i'm very selective
nice thing about shrinks they don't judge your f'd upness - and it's a safe environment - well if you get the right head guru
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Sisex,
You asked a great question. And my answer is .....drum roll, please, "neither."
:D-->
For me, and I repeat, for me, sharing what I learned in Momentous would be like sharing what I've learned in counseling or therapy, or in intimate conversations with my close friends and family, or maybe even in interactions with my beloved husband.
Not that it was that for me, the point is, it was VERY PERSONAL, nobody's business, and mine alone not to share. 
:)--> Boundaries, ya know?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
PS socks,
How incisive you are! I think what you said was a big part of it.
PS Danny
Thanks for the synopsis. Yeah, it was that without the "abuse" part. Nobody was abused, that I saw. It was just a series of "exercises" for Pete's sake, meant to build community and offer feedback for anybody who wanted it. Cripes, it was just a freaking "training." That alone idicates it wasn't real life.
:D--> Sheesh. If somebody thought it was more than that, well, whatever, I'm so sorry. 
:(-->
Edited by ex10Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
T.
That was not one of the menu options.
Please pick either A-Because this thread seems so "negative" or B-Is it because of what you promised when you took the momentus class ?
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> Ha ha ha!!! Inquiring minds need to know.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Well, yeah, and another thing......
:D-->
I've started a new job. I'm going through 5 weeks of intensive "training." It's alot of hours, and us trainess, aka inmates,
:D--> fondly refer to it as "boot camp."
Part of our training is doing role playing exercises and getting feedback from the group. Not a new concept in "corporate training," I must admit. But, what I'm going through is definely NOT for the faint of heart. If you can't stand seeing your own weaknesses, as well as strengths, then get another job.
:)--> This company is probably not for you.
Harsh, yes. Some might say.
Actually, we've already had 2 out of 8 candidates drop out. And I'm sure that they have plenty to say about their experience.
Too demanding, people are too critical, whatever.
I'm not trying to belittle anyone who has posted here, or who has a different perspective. I'm just saying, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Not everybody would wanna do my job. But I like it, and want to be the best I can possibly be.
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
my dear sis ex, thank you for your reply
i love you
i did not want to know about anything that came up in your group
i was more interested in how the group operated
i guess it's to each his own and if you (and evan) were at a place in your life where this would be cathartic sp? then that's it
i am just leery of the description of it all
but i love you guys
lots
plus i'm not of the same makeup so i'm definitely seeing it from a diffent point of view ........... mwah
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Yeah, sisex, I understand (I think) where you are coming from.
;)-->
I also have a personal policy of relating only my feelings and experiences. I guess it comes from my counseling background, but I don't think it's fair for me to try to describe the overall experience except from my very personal point of view.
Sure, I have my opinons of what happened to other people who were in my particular training, but my lips are sealed.
:)--> It would be a breach of confidence for me to do otherwise. Not because of any silly Momentous agreement, just because I respect others.
Maybe it's just my morals, but hey, that's what it is for me. I really don't want to belittle what anyone else has said, or feels, or took away from the whole thing. That just wouldn't be considerate, or Christian, or whatever you want to call it.
I ain't no expert, and if somebody else feels like it's a really bad thing, then they gotta express themselves. I won't argue with that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Danny, you are hilarious! My experience did not follow barton's. First of all, confession was private. Totally. They made an extra large point of that.
You mention readings. I remember there being a good bit of Kirkegaard, pretty literate stuff for an abject brainwashing, don't you think?
I don't remember signing anything on the ground rules, but my memory may be fuzzy on that one. Regardless, the point of it was agonizingly clear (as is the case in these things, some people were, well, dense)
I think the first two or three days are meant to break down defenses, but I wouldn't charachterize anything I heard as verbal abuse. some of it was very 'challenging', though.
The homework was ridiculous. There was so much it pretty much insured that at least SOEMBODY couldn't finish.
Actually, the point of the lifeboat exercise was to show people that they don't properly value their own lives. I can't imagine anybody disagreeing with me on that.
The "buddy" thing: I don't remember the 'lose one & other is out stipulation'. I don't think that was mentioned in mine. But Barton missed the better part: You're asked to choose a 'buddy' based on the person least attractive/most annoying/etc to you. Well, damn, there wasn't anybody I felt like that about yet. (don't worry mark, I would've chosen you quick! hahahahaha) i just wandered around until I found somebody else wandering around and we became buddies.
I must say, it was like taking a huge emotional crap. Nothing wrong with that. I've slept better since, the tick in my face went away, and (much more importantly), I've given much more of myself to my family since then.
And yeah, the LSD comaprison fits well.
Mark, I didn't answer you questions because you've been such a dweeb. See, that's the Momentus training rising up in me and *making me be "honest". HAHAHAHAHA.
:P-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
and you are a shepherd of "god's people"
like i said before, i am glad for you and what happened in your personal life
still there is nothing wrong with people honestly questioning, you know.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.