“To this day, the leaders of CES do not recognize the havoc they wreaked in the lives of their followers, because they swore the oath to hold Momentus harmless, and they haven't repented.â€
Perhaps. I don't know about the "oath", or the "lack" of repentance -- however, when those in CES (leadership) went through momentus, they did speak about it.
It was related to us as something they had done, described as quite hard, and not for the "faint of heart". But in the early stages, they did say that learning was to be gleaned from it, though they soon dropped all mention of momentous.
That was back in the early 90's, perhaps even the late 80's. I don't remember the exact year, but JAL was here in Minnesota, I went to the fellowship, and he gave momentous a brief reference, but no more than that. On all of the tapes I have from them (1990 to present), there is no mention of momentous.
It should suffice to say, that they have left it behind them, as something not worth trying, and so much "water under the bridge". And they have not spoken of it for over a decade or so now.
Perhaps you had a different experience with all of this, (other than I have had), yet this is my perception of something they did, yet now no longer advocate -- privately, or publically.
If they made a mistake by "advocating" momentous (my opinon), yet haven't spoken of it for 10 or 15 years, I tend to believe they (CES), has moved on to bigger and better things, and have left the past behind.
TheEvan - You wrote, "Steve, I've nothing to repent of regarding Momentus. From the sounds of it, I guess CES might. But I don't. Your broad brush isn't working for me."
Evan, "Where's your commitment!?!"
Remember that line?
Remember how the trainers, at the end of the first break, took the people who came back late and brow-beat, and badgered, and bullied them about their lack of commitment? About how important it is to keep our promises?
Remember how they gradually singled one of them out and hammered on him or her mercilessly until they broke that person's spirit?
Did you know that was all scripted? Did you know the trainers discussed beforehand which "trainee" was most likely to give them trouble, and that they had singled him or her out before the group ever met? Did you know the purpose of that exercise was to cow the rest of us into submission?
And look at the topic they used for terrifying us into submission; the importance of keeping promises, "Where's your commitment!?!"
And what was one of the many promises you made just before that memorable session?
"12. EXEMPTION FROM LIABILITY: I hereby fully and forever discharge and release MM, Inc. and [insert initials of local sponsors] from any and all liability, claims, demands, actions, and causes of action whatsoever arising out of any damages, both in law and in equity, in any way resulting from personal, physical, psychological or emotional injuries, distress, or death arising from or in any way related to the TRAINING. This release from liability includes loss, damage or injury resulting from the negligence of MM, Inc. and [insert initials of local sponsors] from any other cause or causes."
Sounds like a pretty broad brush to me.
"To repent" doesn't mean "to feel bad" or "to feel guilty", even though those things are sometimes associated with repentance. "To repent" means "to change what you are committed to".
They never taught THAT in Momentus, did they?
Evan, if you have NOT changed your commitment to the promise to hold Momentus harmless, I CANNOT trust your interpretation of your experience to be complete. At an unconscious level, at your heart level, neither can you.
For your own good, you need to repent of your foolish ["anoetos" = "unthinking"] promise to hold Momentus harmless.
dmiller - You wrote, "If they [the principals of CES] made a mistake by 'advocating' momentous (my opinion), yet haven't spoken of it for 10 or 15 years, I tend to believe they (CES), has moved on to bigger and better things, and have left the past behind."
The question becomes, just how much of the past have they really left behind?
Do you realize that the dispensationalism Wierwille taught in PFAL, and that CES continues to teach, fails utterly in the face of Paul's words in Romans 9 through 11.
When confronted with this truth, Graeser responded with a teaching about Paul's trip to Jerusalem. Graeser contended that Paul couldn't receive first-rate revelation until his "Jewish mindset" had been broken by his experiences in Jerusalem. Only the prison epistles, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, are bona fide, full-bore revelation. All the rest have been watered down because of Paul's "Jewish mindset". Therefore, we can safely disregard any part of Romans that disagrees with our pet theology.
Where did Mark learn about "mindsets", and how important it is to "break" them?
To this day, the principals of CES are using things they learned in Momentus to rationalize their errors. They may have TRIED to put OUR REMEMBRANCE of their past errors behind us, but they have NOT moved on to bigger and better things.
Dear excathedra - The trainers spent the WHOLE AFTERNOON interrogating and berating all the people, individually, who came back late from break. There weren't much more than a half-a-dozen or so of them out of about sixty attendees. Each ONE of them was put on a hot seat, so the rest of us could know what would be in store for us if we didn't toe the line.
Martindale's rants were just that. Undisciplined, emotional rants. The viciousness of the Momentus trainers was calculated, with deliberate intent to break the spirit of the diatribe's recipient, and to intimidate the rest of us.
Momentus' intensity was at least one order of magnitude worse than anything I ever experienced in residence.
dear steve, thanks but no thanks, i ate enough of that kind of shtuff in residence to last me a friggin lifetime
break a person's spirit eh ? i guess they break the old man nature down so that the new man may emerge. when 2 or 3 are gathered in a breakthrough session christ is there in their midst
quote:It should suffice to say, that they have left it behind them, as something not worth trying, and so much "water under the bridge". And they have not spoken of it for over a decade or so now.
dmiller, I get the same impression and have had the same experience. I haven't seen or heard anything about Momentus while dealing with CES. I think we're talking about some old stuff here, not representative of the present happenings over at CES.
Galen - You wrote, "It seems to me that most any doctrine you teach will be going along smoothly and then suddenly while everyone else is lapping it up, one person will jerk and have issues, and from that moment on that person is fighting everything the group stands for."
If you think Momentus was a "class" like PFAL, you are mistaken. It's not your fault though. The participants of Momentus are sworn to secrecy so that others WON'T know that it isn't just a "class" like PFAL. I have repented of my foolish promise to keep the physical, emotional and spiritual abuses of the Momentus training secret.
Momentus doesn't teach "doctrine". It is what's called "thought reform". It's purpose is to break you at an emotional level. Things don't go along smoothly. Every aspect, including the thermostat setting, is deliberately designed to be disturbing. People don't "lap it up" They endure the experience out of fear and humiliation.
People don't just "jerk". This is the testimony of Jean Cofield, a personal acquaintance of mine (quoted with her permission):
quote: ...I am motivated to examine Momentus because of its impact on my life. Having no personal or family history of mental illness, I spent four days in a hospital mental health unit after the training. I was admitted because my mind was racing from thought to thought making it very difficult to relax or sleep. I mistook unfounded and never before imagined thoughts concerning my husband, children and others as reality. I literally believed every thought that came into my mind was true. Once at the hospital I was given medication to rest and readjust the chemical imbalance in my brain and soon regained rational thinking processes. The hospital physician termed what I experienced as a single occurrance manic episode (excessive mental excitement). It was determined the episode was brought about by a chemical imbalance in the brain due to the abnormal stress of the Momentus training. I was told by Momentus staff my reaction was an isolated and rare ocurrance caused by some big problem in my life I was afraid to face (neither they nor I have any idea what that might be). However, I learned later, two others in my own training experienced very similar extreme symptoms, one winding up in the hospital also. I have since heard of three additional situations where participants ended up in the hospital or attempted suicide following their Momentus training. This is far from being an isolated occurrance and is cause for concern.
Hospitalization... suicide... divorce... the bitter disintegration of formerly loving fellowships...
These things follow in the path of Momentus like wrecked trailers follow in the path of a tornado. Could there be a connection?
Nah. Couldn't be. After all, Momentus is harmless. It must be the victim's fault. Kill the victim before the victim kills you!
Love,
Steve
P.S. - "Kill the Victim Before the Victim Kills You" is the title of a WHOLE BOOK published by the same "great" people who brought you Momentus. Talk about blaming the victim!?!
oldiesman - You wrote, "I haven't seen or heard anything about Momentus while dealing with CES. I think we're talking about some old stuff here, not representative of the present happenings over at CES."
Oldiesman, I was there. I worked closely with CES from the late-'80s to the mid-'90s. I was a contributor to, and on the editorial staff of "Dialogue" magazine. I faithfully attended the weekly fellowship in John Lynn's home, where he told me I could teach anytime he was out of town. I taught on biblical leadership at one of CES' Chicago meetings. I did the same teaching on one of CES' bimonthly tapes. I took Momentus. I attended the leadership meetings of The Living Word Fellowship.
The influences of Momentus are STLL OPERATIVE at CES, both on doctrinal and practical levels. See my previous post to dmiller on page three of this thread.
Do you realize that the dispensationalism Wierwille taught in PFAL, and that CES continues to teach, fails utterly in the face of Paul's words in Romans 9 through 11.
Steve,
It always fascinates me to no end when people imitate "My Favorite Mar-cion" without knowing much (if anything) about who he even was. Also missing from Marcion's text:
Romans chapter 9:1 -9:33
chapters 10:18-21
11:1-11:32
Was this material originally missing, or added?
Either is possible. Marcion could have removed it because it didn't agree with his theology -or his opponents could have added it to refute Marcion's antithesis between the "severity and the goodness of God" (Romans 11:22f).
Danny - Some of my basic assumptions don't agree with some of your basic assumptions, but I always enjoy dialoguing with you. You've done a lot of good research and given a lot of logically valid thought to the things you've found. I usually learn things from you, even if we attach different interpretations to those things.
Whether or not we believe that Romans 9-11 was original or added later, CES teaches that it WAS original. We just can't rely on it, because God had to water-down the revelation due to Paul's "Jewish mindset". Paul had to be "broken" before he could receive the really good stuff. It's a good idea for everybody else to be "broken", too. Or at least that's how some people think and act.
Danny - Some of my basic assumptions don't agree with some of your basic assumptions, but I always enjoy dialoguing with you. You've done a lot of good research and given a lot of logically valid thought to the things you've found. I usually learn things from you, even if we attach different interpretations to those things.
It's always a pleasure, Steve. You likewise spark my imagination, and provide delicious food for thought.
quote:
Whether or not we believe that Romans 9-11 was original or added later, CES teaches that it WAS original. We just can't rely on it, because God had to water-down the revelation due to Paul's "Jewish mindset". Paul had to be "broken" before he could receive the really good stuff. It's a good idea for everybody else to be "broken", too. Or at least that's how some people think and act.
Now that's an approach I never considered (makes me feel a little better about myself - thank you)- is one actually more justified in questioning the validity of certain sections of scripture on the basis of their learning of the content of reconstructed ancient versions - or worst off and even disingenuous for accepting it as "God's Word" and outright rejecting and rationalizing inconvenient sections away?
So Momentus teaches that human beings cannot be "broken" if they're going to receive the purest revelation from God (apparently overlooking that Paul regarded himself as an "abortion" and the least of all the apostles, an offscouring of the earth, among other less-than-positive things ). Yet one must become a perfectly tweaked, functioning human being like Jesus - alas! -might we be enountering here (yet another) possible "self-inflicted wound" arising from VPW's doctrinal stance in "Jesus Christ is not God"/CES-refried-recipe?
hmmm...I personally prefer hiding the Good God's precepts in my heart than striving to become a perfect man in the flesh.
see what I mean, Steve. You always spark my imagination about these things.
quote:dmiller, I get the same impression and have had the same experience. I haven't seen or heard anything about Momentus while dealing with CES. I think we're talking about some old stuff here, not representative of the present happenings over at CES.
I must state for the record that when JAL stayed with me in 1999 he recommended I take momentus. This is not 10-15 years ago.....
Danny - You wrote, "So Momentus teaches that human beings cannot be "broken" if they're going to receive the purest revelation from God... "
I must not have made myself clear. Momentus teaches that human beings MUST be broken in order to receive the purest revelation from God. And those Momentus trainers are just the ones you're looking for if you REALLY want to break people. They've got breaking people honed down to an artform. And they only charge a small, nominal fee for the service :-(
CES' spin on Paul is that he carried around a "Jewish mindset" that tainted the revelation he received for Romans, Corinthians, Galatians and Thessalonians. Paul's hardships at Jerusalem, recorded in the later part of Acts, were his "Momentus" experience that broke him of his "Jewish mindset". Then he was clear to receive the revelation of Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians.
This kind of thinking, that you can't function properly unless you've been broken, led to elitism with a vengence among the Momentus grads. It was worse than any name-tag envy in TWI. And it led to Momentus grads trying to break everyone around them, even though they were expressly forbidden to do so in the training itself. That was a major cause for the bitter division that followed in Momentus' wake where ever it went.
What I really need is a class, of any kind, where someone will pay me for taking it.
And I don't mean a "you can't afford NOT to take this class!" come on. I mean, actual cash money, dough-ski bro-ski, no coin all bills. Lean mean green. Folding paper of the Treasury kind. I want the bucks to stop right here. Lots of them.
And I'd like the "price" of the class to GO UP! Cuz it's worth it! To show me they're really committed to their material. If it's that good, they should be willing to pay me! I need it! Can't do with out it! Got-ta got-ta have it!
"Make Me Be Good"
by socks (spritely, with feeling!)
Make me an offer I can't refuse.
Make me an offer in a form I can use.
Give it to me hard.
Give it to me mean.
Just keep it coming till you hear me scream.
Do it in love and do it again!
Until I am crawling under my own skin.
I love it, you have such a way with the lash!
I'll be back again as soon as you have some more cash!!!
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WordWolf
It's never a good sign when you have to keep changing your group's name so that people don't know who you are. So, "The Revenant Process" and "Blood and Ethos" and "Master Coaches Academy
WordWolf
A) JAL never apologized to anyone about bringing in a harmful program, or shilling a harmful program- which he does to this day. Either he DOESN'T CARE it's a harmful program, or he's such a raving i
socks
They're similar to Scientology in many respects. Scientology has a range of hold-harmless agreements and contracts they use for their various activities. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Scientology/R
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George Aar
Evan,
I think you're referring to "Semi-Tough" (also with Kris Kristofferson).
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dmiller
Perhaps. I don't know about the "oath", or the "lack" of repentance -- however, when those in CES (leadership) went through momentus, they did speak about it.
It was related to us as something they had done, described as quite hard, and not for the "faint of heart". But in the early stages, they did say that learning was to be gleaned from it, though they soon dropped all mention of momentous.
That was back in the early 90's, perhaps even the late 80's. I don't remember the exact year, but JAL was here in Minnesota, I went to the fellowship, and he gave momentous a brief reference, but no more than that. On all of the tapes I have from them (1990 to present), there is no mention of momentous.
It should suffice to say, that they have left it behind them, as something not worth trying, and so much "water under the bridge". And they have not spoken of it for over a decade or so now.
Perhaps you had a different experience with all of this, (other than I have had), yet this is my perception of something they did, yet now no longer advocate -- privately, or publically.
If they made a mistake by "advocating" momentous (my opinon), yet haven't spoken of it for 10 or 15 years, I tend to believe they (CES), has moved on to bigger and better things, and have left the past behind.
Just an IMHO.
:)-->
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Steve Lortz
TheEvan - You wrote, "Steve, I've nothing to repent of regarding Momentus. From the sounds of it, I guess CES might. But I don't. Your broad brush isn't working for me."
Evan, "Where's your commitment!?!"
Remember that line?
Remember how the trainers, at the end of the first break, took the people who came back late and brow-beat, and badgered, and bullied them about their lack of commitment? About how important it is to keep our promises?
Remember how they gradually singled one of them out and hammered on him or her mercilessly until they broke that person's spirit?
Did you know that was all scripted? Did you know the trainers discussed beforehand which "trainee" was most likely to give them trouble, and that they had singled him or her out before the group ever met? Did you know the purpose of that exercise was to cow the rest of us into submission?
And look at the topic they used for terrifying us into submission; the importance of keeping promises, "Where's your commitment!?!"
And what was one of the many promises you made just before that memorable session?
"12. EXEMPTION FROM LIABILITY: I hereby fully and forever discharge and release MM, Inc. and [insert initials of local sponsors] from any and all liability, claims, demands, actions, and causes of action whatsoever arising out of any damages, both in law and in equity, in any way resulting from personal, physical, psychological or emotional injuries, distress, or death arising from or in any way related to the TRAINING. This release from liability includes loss, damage or injury resulting from the negligence of MM, Inc. and [insert initials of local sponsors] from any other cause or causes."
Sounds like a pretty broad brush to me.
"To repent" doesn't mean "to feel bad" or "to feel guilty", even though those things are sometimes associated with repentance. "To repent" means "to change what you are committed to".
They never taught THAT in Momentus, did they?
Evan, if you have NOT changed your commitment to the promise to hold Momentus harmless, I CANNOT trust your interpretation of your experience to be complete. At an unconscious level, at your heart level, neither can you.
For your own good, you need to repent of your foolish ["anoetos" = "unthinking"] promise to hold Momentus harmless.
I KNOW that can be humbling. I had to do it, too.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
dmiller - You wrote, "If they [the principals of CES] made a mistake by 'advocating' momentous (my opinion), yet haven't spoken of it for 10 or 15 years, I tend to believe they (CES), has moved on to bigger and better things, and have left the past behind."
The question becomes, just how much of the past have they really left behind?
Do you realize that the dispensationalism Wierwille taught in PFAL, and that CES continues to teach, fails utterly in the face of Paul's words in Romans 9 through 11.
When confronted with this truth, Graeser responded with a teaching about Paul's trip to Jerusalem. Graeser contended that Paul couldn't receive first-rate revelation until his "Jewish mindset" had been broken by his experiences in Jerusalem. Only the prison epistles, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, are bona fide, full-bore revelation. All the rest have been watered down because of Paul's "Jewish mindset". Therefore, we can safely disregard any part of Romans that disagrees with our pet theology.
Where did Mark learn about "mindsets", and how important it is to "break" them?
To this day, the principals of CES are using things they learned in Momentus to rationalize their errors. They may have TRIED to put OUR REMEMBRANCE of their past errors behind us, but they have NOT moved on to bigger and better things.
Love,
Steve
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excathedra
WHERE'S YOUR COMMITMENT ?
BECAUSE THEY CAME BACK FROM BREAK LATE ????
now i know why this CURSEWORD "class" appeals to wayfers, and Danny, ESPECIALLY EXWAYCORPS
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Steve Lortz
Dear excathedra - The trainers spent the WHOLE AFTERNOON interrogating and berating all the people, individually, who came back late from break. There weren't much more than a half-a-dozen or so of them out of about sixty attendees. Each ONE of them was put on a hot seat, so the rest of us could know what would be in store for us if we didn't toe the line.
Martindale's rants were just that. Undisciplined, emotional rants. The viciousness of the Momentus trainers was calculated, with deliberate intent to break the spirit of the diatribe's recipient, and to intimidate the rest of us.
Momentus' intensity was at least one order of magnitude worse than anything I ever experienced in residence.
Love,
Steve
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excathedra
dear steve, thanks but no thanks, i ate enough of that kind of shtuff in residence to last me a friggin lifetime
break a person's spirit eh ? i guess they break the old man nature down so that the new man may emerge. when 2 or 3 are gathered in a breakthrough session christ is there in their midst
they should call them breakdown sessions
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oldiesman
dmiller, I get the same impression and have had the same experience. I haven't seen or heard anything about Momentus while dealing with CES. I think we're talking about some old stuff here, not representative of the present happenings over at CES.
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Steve Lortz
Galen - You wrote, "It seems to me that most any doctrine you teach will be going along smoothly and then suddenly while everyone else is lapping it up, one person will jerk and have issues, and from that moment on that person is fighting everything the group stands for."
If you think Momentus was a "class" like PFAL, you are mistaken. It's not your fault though. The participants of Momentus are sworn to secrecy so that others WON'T know that it isn't just a "class" like PFAL. I have repented of my foolish promise to keep the physical, emotional and spiritual abuses of the Momentus training secret.
Momentus doesn't teach "doctrine". It is what's called "thought reform". It's purpose is to break you at an emotional level. Things don't go along smoothly. Every aspect, including the thermostat setting, is deliberately designed to be disturbing. People don't "lap it up" They endure the experience out of fear and humiliation.
People don't just "jerk". This is the testimony of Jean Cofield, a personal acquaintance of mine (quoted with her permission):
Hospitalization... suicide... divorce... the bitter disintegration of formerly loving fellowships...
These things follow in the path of Momentus like wrecked trailers follow in the path of a tornado. Could there be a connection?
Nah. Couldn't be. After all, Momentus is harmless. It must be the victim's fault. Kill the victim before the victim kills you!
Love,
Steve
P.S. - "Kill the Victim Before the Victim Kills You" is the title of a WHOLE BOOK published by the same "great" people who brought you Momentus. Talk about blaming the victim!?!
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Steve Lortz
oldiesman - You wrote, "I haven't seen or heard anything about Momentus while dealing with CES. I think we're talking about some old stuff here, not representative of the present happenings over at CES."
Oldiesman, I was there. I worked closely with CES from the late-'80s to the mid-'90s. I was a contributor to, and on the editorial staff of "Dialogue" magazine. I faithfully attended the weekly fellowship in John Lynn's home, where he told me I could teach anytime he was out of town. I taught on biblical leadership at one of CES' Chicago meetings. I did the same teaching on one of CES' bimonthly tapes. I took Momentus. I attended the leadership meetings of The Living Word Fellowship.
The influences of Momentus are STLL OPERATIVE at CES, both on doctrinal and practical levels. See my previous post to dmiller on page three of this thread.
Love,
Steve
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TheInvisibleDan
Steve,
It always fascinates me to no end when people imitate "My Favorite Mar-cion" without knowing much (if anything) about who he even was. Also missing from Marcion's text:
Romans chapter 9:1 -9:33
chapters 10:18-21
11:1-11:32
Was this material originally missing, or added?
Either is possible. Marcion could have removed it because it didn't agree with his theology -or his opponents could have added it to refute Marcion's antithesis between the "severity and the goodness of God" (Romans 11:22f).
Anyways, very interesting post Steve.
Danny
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Steve Lortz
Danny - Some of my basic assumptions don't agree with some of your basic assumptions, but I always enjoy dialoguing with you. You've done a lot of good research and given a lot of logically valid thought to the things you've found. I usually learn things from you, even if we attach different interpretations to those things.
Whether or not we believe that Romans 9-11 was original or added later, CES teaches that it WAS original. We just can't rely on it, because God had to water-down the revelation due to Paul's "Jewish mindset". Paul had to be "broken" before he could receive the really good stuff. It's a good idea for everybody else to be "broken", too. Or at least that's how some people think and act.
That comes straight out of Momentus.
Love,
Steve
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TheInvisibleDan
It's always a pleasure, Steve. You likewise spark my imagination, and provide delicious food for thought.
Now that's an approach I never considered (makes me feel a little better about myself - thank you)- is one actually more justified in questioning the validity of certain sections of scripture on the basis of their learning of the content of reconstructed ancient versions - or worst off and even disingenuous for accepting it as "God's Word" and outright rejecting and rationalizing inconvenient sections away?
So Momentus teaches that human beings cannot be "broken" if they're going to receive the purest revelation from God (apparently overlooking that Paul regarded himself as an "abortion" and the least of all the apostles, an offscouring of the earth, among other less-than-positive things ). Yet one must become a perfectly tweaked, functioning human being like Jesus - alas! -might we be enountering here (yet another) possible "self-inflicted wound" arising from VPW's doctrinal stance in "Jesus Christ is not God"/CES-refried-recipe?
hmmm...I personally prefer hiding the Good God's precepts in my heart than striving to become a perfect man in the flesh.
see what I mean, Steve. You always spark my imagination about these things.
with warmest regards,
Danny
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pjroberge
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Steve Lortz
Danny - You wrote, "So Momentus teaches that human beings cannot be "broken" if they're going to receive the purest revelation from God... "
I must not have made myself clear. Momentus teaches that human beings MUST be broken in order to receive the purest revelation from God. And those Momentus trainers are just the ones you're looking for if you REALLY want to break people. They've got breaking people honed down to an artform. And they only charge a small, nominal fee for the service :-(
CES' spin on Paul is that he carried around a "Jewish mindset" that tainted the revelation he received for Romans, Corinthians, Galatians and Thessalonians. Paul's hardships at Jerusalem, recorded in the later part of Acts, were his "Momentus" experience that broke him of his "Jewish mindset". Then he was clear to receive the revelation of Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians.
This kind of thinking, that you can't function properly unless you've been broken, led to elitism with a vengence among the Momentus grads. It was worse than any name-tag envy in TWI. And it led to Momentus grads trying to break everyone around them, even though they were expressly forbidden to do so in the training itself. That was a major cause for the bitter division that followed in Momentus' wake where ever it went.
Love,
Steve
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excathedra
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Steve Lortz
excathedra - You haven't been broken in the authorized way by the authorized people at the authorized price.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
RE: One of my previous posts:
CES ignores the truth that Ephesians 2 says the exact same thing as Romans 9-11.
Love,
Steve
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socks
I'm broke. Does that count?
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excathedra
look i'm not sure where i stand on "biblical truths" and religion etc., but i can sense a cruel, mean, bullsheet artist song and dance
this is from experience
which is no guarantee for truth by the way
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socks
Let me amend that.
"My prosperity's in transition."
(two kids in coll-edge).
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excathedra
good luck socksy
when they graduate perhaps you can take momentus
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GarthP2000
No K-Mart Special Coupons for the next Momentus class for you then. :P
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socks
I need a discount!
And I may need Momentus too excyadra!
What I really need is a class, of any kind, where someone will pay me for taking it.
And I don't mean a "you can't afford NOT to take this class!" come on. I mean, actual cash money, dough-ski bro-ski, no coin all bills. Lean mean green. Folding paper of the Treasury kind. I want the bucks to stop right here. Lots of them.
And I'd like the "price" of the class to GO UP! Cuz it's worth it! To show me they're really committed to their material. If it's that good, they should be willing to pay me! I need it! Can't do with out it! Got-ta got-ta have it!
"Make Me Be Good"
by socks (spritely, with feeling!)
Make me an offer I can't refuse.
Make me an offer in a form I can use.
Give it to me hard.
Give it to me mean.
Just keep it coming till you hear me scream.
Do it in love and do it again!
Until I am crawling under my own skin.
I love it, you have such a way with the lash!
I'll be back again as soon as you have some more cash!!!
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