why then do you think it is/was endorsed so highly by CES?
I do not think they think it is so bad even with hindsight.
CEs was in one heck of a position: admit problmes with their judgement of the class or get rid of those that oppose them .
they soften it with the you know "lesser " folks cant handle the real meat of the truth , so keep it between those that we know and love and can trust not to make us look wrong .
BTW, my convoluted path to Momentus didn't include the Lynn-ites. The one who really pushed it was my (never Way) little sister. she was interested in clearing the air about our really bad childhood and saw it as a vehicle for doing so. It worked for that. The three of us are now quite close...an amazing result.
Do I recommend it to others? No. But I'm glad I did it...
No thanks. My wife and I wish to stay married. Most of the marriages of grads in our area broke up or had intense problems after being goaded into taking Momentus.
I have checked out the psychology of what happens, and here is a link to those who took it and need psychiatric help from some people who are very familiar with its victims:
the way I understand it John Judes and John Lynn are not exactly bed fellows . ha . but they seem so much alike to me really .
I think to reccommend something is one thing and folks should NOT have to be responsible for the reaction of those who participate.
hence the HUGE disclaimer one must sign etc.
BUT
CES knew they had "live ones" just falling out of the cult and into theirs and many are fragle and unsound due to the stress and upset involved in the turmoil to consider the bigger picture and recognize those following them which they do and did and will encourage ( not neccesarily a bad thing) as such .
I think when you claim to know what is best for everyone it hurts hard when it goes wrong.
The only dif is that I was involved with some exwayfers who got involved because of John's endorsement. My only comment is that they didn't know what they were doing, or getting into. (and whoever's fault that was, I'm not getting into.)
It ain't for everybody. It's really not a "one size fits all" excult world. It somebody thought it was, or is, I am truly sorry for that. :(-->
I did it, and am glad I did. I feel for those who had a different experience. :(-->
But you know what? We are adults and make our owm decisions. And we decide what we do with stuff that is made "available." If somebody still can't work it out, I am so very sorry, and will do what I can to help. My email is on my profile. :)-->
Well, there ya have it...some people took it and had a great experience, others are in therapy. When I was MUCH younger, I had a great experience with LSD...but I sure wouldn't recomend it to anyone. My question is this...where do you draw the line, in determining who can handle it and who can't? If there's a chance that somebody is going to have a nervous breakdown or that there marriage might fall apart because of Momentous...is it really responsible for these "Momentous recruiters" to be herding people into these classes...after making them sign a release form to not hold the Momentous folks responsible? Especially, because much of the classes content is secret...which means that you're signing a paper, absolving them of any responsibility, when you don't even know what they are going to do to you...and they do! Should not they be responsible if they hurt someone?...signing a piece of paper may free them of a legal responsibility but not a moral one. I mean, afterall, aren't these folks supposed to be Christian?
I have nothing against psychotherapy when it's administered by professionals and people know what they are getting themselves into. It's when they disguise it as being "Christian" that they are given a different litmus test. Could you see Jesus asking someone to punch a pillow repeatedly, screaming mommy, mommy?
It ain't for everybody. It's really not a "one size fits all" excult world. It somebody thought it was, or is, I am truly sorry for that.
That is one of the most profound statements I have read in a very long time! Seems kind of odd that we have the testimonies of two people that have actually taken the course and while they don’t recommend it for everybody they also say they are glad they did it. Compared to what?
Before one can claim that something like Momentous breaks up marriages those marriages would have to be proven as strong working relationships before they ran the course. How can anyone accept the testimony of a disgruntled user without first knowing the *state* of the relationship from an objective view? I seriously don't doubt the only place a strong vital marriage lived before Momentous caused a divorce was in the mind of the complainer.
Because true scientific research has documented the only thing worse than cults is the anti-cult cults and those degree carrying experts or fighters if you will. Worse than that are those that claim they can speak from a position of authority while they base their opinions on what they have read or gathered from talking to those that have to have cults to make their livelihood from disgruntled followers when they exit of are forced to exit.
This is the information age folks, about any subject can be well researched. So if someone is dumb enough to take a self-help crash course without investigation, or for that matter not take it based on reports of the *anti’s*, they get what they deserve!
I was in the same Momentus training that Bill Barton was in (see link in Hooner's post of July 13, 2004, 14:50, pg 1 of this thread).
Momentus sought to remedy problems of the flesh by using tools of the flesh. The motivation of its parent organization is money. The leaders of CES were suckered, and they don't even know it. In their own eyes, they are too wise, too savvy, too knowledgable, to be taken in by anybody. Yet the truth is, their attitude makes them doubly vulnerable to deception.
Every person who signed the "hold harmless agreement" swore a solemn oath that they would totally ignore any connections between the Momentus training and the damage it caused in their own lives or the lives of others. I don't trust the perceptions of anyone who has not repented of that foolish (Galatians 3:1; "anoetos" = "unthinking") oath.
The leaders of CES were willing to accept a 5% attrition rate among the people they led into Momentus. They were willing to allow one in twenty of their followers to have their lives devastated for the sake of the "good" it did for the other 95%. That's a dandy thing if you're one of the 95%. If you just happen to be one of the 5%, then it's pretty much hell.
To this day, the leaders of CES do not recognize the havoc they wreaked in the lives of their followers, because they swore the oath to hold Momentus harmless, and they haven't repented. I no longer trust their ability to lead. They led me into a trap once, and they still don't even recognize that it WAS a trap. If I continue to follow them, I'm only asking for trouble. The leaders of CES aren't evil or malicious. It's just that they're foolish enough to believe their own hype.
Steve, I've nothing to repent of regarding Momentus. From the sounds of it, I guess CES might. But I don't. Your broad brush isn't working for me.
BTW, our children dug the changes we exhibited after returning from it. Enough so that one of them requested to go to the teen version (which is a bit 'kinder, gentler') and she totally dug it. Her 'ministry' with other kids took off as a result and she has become a leader among other Christian youth here.
My son took another tack. For a few years, when we'd do something offbeat as a family, or make him do something he didn't want to, he'd joke that "someday I'll go to Momentus and I'll anguish about this in front 20 other people, you'll see". Funny guy him.
I admit that for the most part I have ignored the goings on from this thread.
“Momentus sought to remedy problems of the flesh by using tools of the flesh. The motivation of its parent organization is money.â€
This is the same, as it would be for most religious denominations that I am aware of (I say most as the Amish and Mennonites don’t seem to be that concerned with the ‘bottom-line’).
“Every person who signed the "hold harmless agreement" swore a solemn oath that they would totally ignore any connections between the Momentus training and the damage it caused in their own lives or the lives of others. I don't trust the perceptions of anyone who has not repented of that foolish (Galatians 3:1; "anoetos" = "unthinking") oath.â€
Are you saying that they need to repent of ‘holding harmless’, or of taking an ‘oath’?
I have been through various group-therapy forums wherein we had to agree to a basic form of ‘holding harmless’ everyone within the group and everything that they say (Otherwise, being military and of various ranks we could easily be committing violations of the UCMJ, each time we insulted someone).
You say that this “Momentus’ holding harmless†is to ignore damage caused by momentus?
Hmm, that sounds weird to me.
“The leaders of CES were willing to accept a 5% attrition rate among the people they led into Momentus. They were willing to allow one in twenty of their followers to have their lives devastated for the sake of the "good" it did for the other 95%. That's a dandy thing if you're one of the 95%. If you just happen to be one of the 5%, then it's pretty much hell.â€
It seems to me that most any doctrine you teach will be going along smoothly and then suddenly while everyone else is lapping it up, one person will jerk and have issues, and from that moment on that one person is fighting everything the group stands for. I recall one gentleman we had in a PFAL class, he had been in our fellowship for months, and I worked in the same shop with him. He had dinner with us many times and cookouts, etc. During PFAL, when VPW made reference to today’s Jewish people (which was not complementary at all), he shut down and refused to speak to anyone. Never attended our home again, that moment pretty much ended our friendship.
What I am saying is that anytime, you could be teaching anything, when you make a statement that is going to really ring in someone and set them against you. But that the rest of the people will gladly continue, and will be ‘blessed’ by it all.
“To this day, the leaders of CES do not recognize the havoc they wreaked in the lives of their followers, because they swore the oath to hold Momentus harmless, and they haven't repented.â€
I guess my question is: did CES wreck the havoc, or Momentus? Or was it the swearing of the oath?
As such, do you feel that I need to repent of having lead fellowships wherein one man who taught sometimes believed that Jews today have no standing with Our Heavenly Father?
Did I teach that? No.
Did I believe that? No.
Was it a small portion of what was otherwise a great time fellowshipping and studying the Bible together? Yes.
Jesus might ask " From whence cometh the doctrine? Is it of man or did it come from the Father?"
If they are from NoCal and were exposed to Werner Erhard's est* , I think the question is answered...
I am not a graduate of either though I do know a bit about est, having known people in the past who did an est weekend. The ideas and formats do seem to have a bit of similarity...
*erhard sensitivity training.... whatever the f-*ckkkk that means...
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WordWolf
It's never a good sign when you have to keep changing your group's name so that people don't know who you are. So, "The Revenant Process" and "Blood and Ethos" and "Master Coaches Academy
WordWolf
A) JAL never apologized to anyone about bringing in a harmful program, or shilling a harmful program- which he does to this day. Either he DOESN'T CARE it's a harmful program, or he's such a raving i
socks
They're similar to Scientology in many respects. Scientology has a range of hold-harmless agreements and contracts they use for their various activities. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Scientology/R
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mj412
why then do you think it is/was endorsed so highly by CES?
I do not think they think it is so bad even with hindsight.
CEs was in one heck of a position: admit problmes with their judgement of the class or get rid of those that oppose them .
they soften it with the you know "lesser " folks cant handle the real meat of the truth , so keep it between those that we know and love and can trust not to make us look wrong .
hmmm sounds like twi again.
what does everyone els think it was all about?
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TheEvan
BTW, my convoluted path to Momentus didn't include the Lynn-ites. The one who really pushed it was my (never Way) little sister. she was interested in clearing the air about our really bad childhood and saw it as a vehicle for doing so. It worked for that. The three of us are now quite close...an amazing result.
Do I recommend it to others? No. But I'm glad I did it...
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excathedra
I'm glad for you Evan
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mj412
I never took momentous , I have heard it promoted by CEs and I have read the testimony that it was not good for some folks.
I guess my question is why did CES think it was so important for extwi to take it?
Evan if you got stuff from it why would you not recommend it because some cant handle it like CES thinks?
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Tom Strange
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TheEvan
Yeah mj, it was really strong stuff. I'd be concerned about recommending it. But I think Pat should go. He needs it.
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TheInvisibleDan
The actress Hunter Tylo, of "The Bold and Beautiful"?
Those soap operas can certainly turn into "cults," though excrutiatingly slow ones.
Watch out for those soap cults - they lead to bad poetry:
"As the World Turns through
The Days of our Lives,
All our Children are seeking
for a Guiding Light;
And the Beautiful and Bold live
Another World,
While the Restless see only
One Life to live For."
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pjroberge
I have checked out the psychology of what happens, and here is a link to those who took it and need psychiatric help from some people who are very familiar with its victims:
http://www.wellspringretreat.org
Here's a link to my info about this group including a transcript of Hunter Tylo's interview about Momentus on the 700 club:
http://www.excultworld.com/momentus/momentus.htm
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TheEvan
Apparently my marriage was & is a strong enough foundation to withstand the torture
-->
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mj412
ok.
the way I understand it John Judes and John Lynn are not exactly bed fellows . ha . but they seem so much alike to me really .
I think to reccommend something is one thing and folks should NOT have to be responsible for the reaction of those who participate.
hence the HUGE disclaimer one must sign etc.
BUT
CES knew they had "live ones" just falling out of the cult and into theirs and many are fragle and unsound due to the stress and upset involved in the turmoil to consider the bigger picture and recognize those following them which they do and did and will encourage ( not neccesarily a bad thing) as such .
I think when you claim to know what is best for everyone it hurts hard when it goes wrong.
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mj412
Evan
I hear you say it was a positive thing for you I have read the negatives Mr. P has linked what is your input on the goodness of the program?
I can only read the neg response what was good about it? a little more detail other than "strong" would be great.
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excathedra
i would not take it if you threatened to take away all my eternal rewards ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
i am very very glad evan and his siblings are close now after such a horrible destructive upbringing
but evan, my dear, i don't think it's fair to say who should and should not take it
you were in a place in your life with your sibs and something good happened. i say leave it at that
that's all
mwahs to you all
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pjroberge
MJ412
I also included testimonials from the momentus website at the bottom of the page to be fair.Link to comment
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ex10
Well, I have to echo what Evan said, perxactly.
The only dif is that I was involved with some exwayfers who got involved because of John's endorsement. My only comment is that they didn't know what they were doing, or getting into. (and whoever's fault that was, I'm not getting into.)
It ain't for everybody. It's really not a "one size fits all" excult world. It somebody thought it was, or is, I am truly sorry for that.
:(-->
I did it, and am glad I did. I feel for those who had a different experience.
:(-->
But you know what? We are adults and make our owm decisions. And we decide what we do with stuff that is made "available." If somebody still can't work it out, I am so very sorry, and will do what I can to help. My email is on my profile.
:)-->
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GrouchoMarxJr
Well, there ya have it...some people took it and had a great experience, others are in therapy. When I was MUCH younger, I had a great experience with LSD...but I sure wouldn't recomend it to anyone. My question is this...where do you draw the line, in determining who can handle it and who can't? If there's a chance that somebody is going to have a nervous breakdown or that there marriage might fall apart because of Momentous...is it really responsible for these "Momentous recruiters" to be herding people into these classes...after making them sign a release form to not hold the Momentous folks responsible? Especially, because much of the classes content is secret...which means that you're signing a paper, absolving them of any responsibility, when you don't even know what they are going to do to you...and they do! Should not they be responsible if they hurt someone?...signing a piece of paper may free them of a legal responsibility but not a moral one. I mean, afterall, aren't these folks supposed to be Christian?
I have nothing against psychotherapy when it's administered by professionals and people know what they are getting themselves into. It's when they disguise it as being "Christian" that they are given a different litmus test. Could you see Jesus asking someone to punch a pillow repeatedly, screaming mommy, mommy?
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houseisarockin
Has there ever been ones contacted by students of this program that indicated calling and digging up old bones was not best for the recipient's life?
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Grizzy
That is one of the most profound statements I have read in a very long time! Seems kind of odd that we have the testimonies of two people that have actually taken the course and while they don’t recommend it for everybody they also say they are glad they did it. Compared to what?
Before one can claim that something like Momentous breaks up marriages those marriages would have to be proven as strong working relationships before they ran the course. How can anyone accept the testimony of a disgruntled user without first knowing the *state* of the relationship from an objective view? I seriously don't doubt the only place a strong vital marriage lived before Momentous caused a divorce was in the mind of the complainer.
Because true scientific research has documented the only thing worse than cults is the anti-cult cults and those degree carrying experts or fighters if you will. Worse than that are those that claim they can speak from a position of authority while they base their opinions on what they have read or gathered from talking to those that have to have cults to make their livelihood from disgruntled followers when they exit of are forced to exit.
This is the information age folks, about any subject can be well researched. So if someone is dumb enough to take a self-help crash course without investigation, or for that matter not take it based on reports of the *anti’s*, they get what they deserve!
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Steve Lortz
I was in the same Momentus training that Bill Barton was in (see link in Hooner's post of July 13, 2004, 14:50, pg 1 of this thread).
Momentus sought to remedy problems of the flesh by using tools of the flesh. The motivation of its parent organization is money. The leaders of CES were suckered, and they don't even know it. In their own eyes, they are too wise, too savvy, too knowledgable, to be taken in by anybody. Yet the truth is, their attitude makes them doubly vulnerable to deception.
Every person who signed the "hold harmless agreement" swore a solemn oath that they would totally ignore any connections between the Momentus training and the damage it caused in their own lives or the lives of others. I don't trust the perceptions of anyone who has not repented of that foolish (Galatians 3:1; "anoetos" = "unthinking") oath.
The leaders of CES were willing to accept a 5% attrition rate among the people they led into Momentus. They were willing to allow one in twenty of their followers to have their lives devastated for the sake of the "good" it did for the other 95%. That's a dandy thing if you're one of the 95%. If you just happen to be one of the 5%, then it's pretty much hell.
To this day, the leaders of CES do not recognize the havoc they wreaked in the lives of their followers, because they swore the oath to hold Momentus harmless, and they haven't repented. I no longer trust their ability to lead. They led me into a trap once, and they still don't even recognize that it WAS a trap. If I continue to follow them, I'm only asking for trouble. The leaders of CES aren't evil or malicious. It's just that they're foolish enough to believe their own hype.
Love,
Steve
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TheEvan
Steve, I've nothing to repent of regarding Momentus. From the sounds of it, I guess CES might. But I don't. Your broad brush isn't working for me.
BTW, our children dug the changes we exhibited after returning from it. Enough so that one of them requested to go to the teen version (which is a bit 'kinder, gentler') and she totally dug it. Her 'ministry' with other kids took off as a result and she has become a leader among other Christian youth here.
My son took another tack. For a few years, when we'd do something offbeat as a family, or make him do something he didn't want to, he'd joke that "someday I'll go to Momentus and I'll anguish about this in front 20 other people, you'll see". Funny guy him.
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Galen
Steve-
I admit that for the most part I have ignored the goings on from this thread.
“Momentus sought to remedy problems of the flesh by using tools of the flesh. The motivation of its parent organization is money.â€
This is the same, as it would be for most religious denominations that I am aware of (I say most as the Amish and Mennonites don’t seem to be that concerned with the ‘bottom-line’).
“Every person who signed the "hold harmless agreement" swore a solemn oath that they would totally ignore any connections between the Momentus training and the damage it caused in their own lives or the lives of others. I don't trust the perceptions of anyone who has not repented of that foolish (Galatians 3:1; "anoetos" = "unthinking") oath.â€
Are you saying that they need to repent of ‘holding harmless’, or of taking an ‘oath’?
I have been through various group-therapy forums wherein we had to agree to a basic form of ‘holding harmless’ everyone within the group and everything that they say (Otherwise, being military and of various ranks we could easily be committing violations of the UCMJ, each time we insulted someone).
You say that this “Momentus’ holding harmless†is to ignore damage caused by momentus?
Hmm, that sounds weird to me.
“The leaders of CES were willing to accept a 5% attrition rate among the people they led into Momentus. They were willing to allow one in twenty of their followers to have their lives devastated for the sake of the "good" it did for the other 95%. That's a dandy thing if you're one of the 95%. If you just happen to be one of the 5%, then it's pretty much hell.â€
It seems to me that most any doctrine you teach will be going along smoothly and then suddenly while everyone else is lapping it up, one person will jerk and have issues, and from that moment on that one person is fighting everything the group stands for. I recall one gentleman we had in a PFAL class, he had been in our fellowship for months, and I worked in the same shop with him. He had dinner with us many times and cookouts, etc. During PFAL, when VPW made reference to today’s Jewish people (which was not complementary at all), he shut down and refused to speak to anyone. Never attended our home again, that moment pretty much ended our friendship.
What I am saying is that anytime, you could be teaching anything, when you make a statement that is going to really ring in someone and set them against you. But that the rest of the people will gladly continue, and will be ‘blessed’ by it all.
“To this day, the leaders of CES do not recognize the havoc they wreaked in the lives of their followers, because they swore the oath to hold Momentus harmless, and they haven't repented.â€
I guess my question is: did CES wreck the havoc, or Momentus? Or was it the swearing of the oath?
As such, do you feel that I need to repent of having lead fellowships wherein one man who taught sometimes believed that Jews today have no standing with Our Heavenly Father?
Did I teach that? No.
Did I believe that? No.
Was it a small portion of what was otherwise a great time fellowshipping and studying the Bible together? Yes.
:-)
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alfakat
Jesus might ask " From whence cometh the doctrine? Is it of man or did it come from the Father?"
If they are from NoCal and were exposed to Werner Erhard's est* , I think the question is answered...
I am not a graduate of either though I do know a bit about est, having known people in the past who did an est weekend. The ideas and formats do seem to have a bit of similarity...
*erhard sensitivity training.... whatever the f-*ckkkk that means...
ps here is a google search... http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=...%22&btnG=Search
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excathedra
sensitivity training ahhhhh just what i need. get the crap beat outta me mentally so i can be in touch with my true inner sensitive self
i love getting honest and yelled at in front of strangers. well we would bond and no longer be strangers i'm sure
feeling warm and fuzzy
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pjroberge
Does this sound anything like Loy Boy wannabees?
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Tom Strange
They want to work at Ballys? ... or UPS?
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