It's back. Regardless of what you think about Momentous and its combination of pseudo-Christian theology, new-age Large-Group-Awareness-Training and just plain indoctrination, Daniel Tocchini is doing it again under a new name.
It's back. Regardless of what you think about Momentous and its combination of pseudo-Christian theology, new-age Large-Group-Awareness-Training and just plain indoctrination, Daniel Tocchini is doing it again under a new name.
It's never a good sign when you have to keep changing your group's name so that people don't know who you are.
So, "The Revenant Process" and "Blood and Ethos" and "Master Coaches Academy" and "Efficacius" are all MOMENTUS with a name-change and some window-dressing?
Oh, don't forget "Life Design Coaching" , "Legendary Life Strategy" and "the Hero Being Process."
That's a LOT of names to lose in the shuffle, all for Momentus, which people steer clear of because they've been warned.
A "revenant" is a mythic creature, a corpse that drags itself from its grave to haunt the living, and folklorists use it interchangeably with "vampire". The name translates, roughly, as "one who returns." Yeah, Momentus dragged itself from its grave to haunt the living. Sounds about right.
I would like to know if anyone has heard of this. Tocchini has designed and implemented a curriculum based on his Blood & Ethos Revenant Training in a residential recovery facility in Santa Rosa — Crossing the Jordan, operated by Michael and Dana Bryant, Tocchini minions and ex-convicts — vehicle theft, insurance fraud, bank robberies — a great story of their own, and Tocchini holds classes and the reigns. I was recruited to attend Revenant with the promise of family reunification. Residents are immersed in the ideology for months and family members are recruited to attend the Revenant and beyond. Residents, though, are required to attend Revenant as part of the curriculum, but for these folks Revenant is mere kids’ stuff — anybody heard of Intrepid Training? Anyway, since California does not require licensing for residential recovery facilities, Tocchini and the Bryants are free to run amok and make a ton of money exploiting a despairing subset of the population who are already weakened, stigmatized and marginalized. Nobody is watching. There’s more. A lot more. Every sentence is a book in itself. I truly need the thoughts, opinions, stories, knowledge of others. I do struggle to understand.
I would like to know if anyone has heard of this. Tocchini has designed and implemented a curriculum based on his Blood & Ethos Revenant Training in a residential recovery facility in Santa Rosa — Crossing the Jordan, operated by Michael and Dana Bryant, Tocchini followers and ex-convicts — vehicle theft, insurance fraud, bank robberies — a great story of their own, and Tocchini holds classes and the reigns. I was recruited to attend Revenant with the promise of family reunification. Residents are immersed in the ideology for months and family members are recruited to attend the Revenant and beyond. Residents, though, are required to attend Revenant as part of the curriculum, but for these folks Revenant is kids’ stuff — anybody heard of Intrepid Training? Anyway, since California does not require licensing for residential recovery facilities, Tocchini and the Bryants seem free to run amok and make a ton of money exploiting a despairing subset of the population who are already weakened, stigmatized and marginalized. Nobody is watching. There’s more. A lot more. Every sentence is a book in itself. I truly need the thoughts, opinions, stories, knowledge of others. I do struggle to understand.
Well. let's see....
Tochini has a long history in northern California. (his family owned businesses in Sonoma county, some movie theaters.) I have never met the man but have met people over the years who have been involved in his self-help pseudo Christian activities - people outside of the ex Way circle, who have no past connection to The Way, John Lynn or other former Wayfers who have since hooked up with Tochini. None of the people I've met were happy with their experience or the results of his efforts, certainly no ringing recommendations. This goes back to before Momentous when he broke away from his church, to Momentous and now this. In between he's done some other businesses, I think he had a web/internet marketing thing going for awhile, some sort of platform/service offering. I only hear about them through certain sources I have, never on the open market where I don't believe he has a great impact, but I could be wrong.
It's a free country. Unfortunately that does allow some of these people to take advantage of people who need help the most. At the same time I'm sure some of these self-helpers believe they're doing something useful.
My advice on face value would be to steer clear of anything with Tochini's name on it but there is no scenario in any stretch of the imagination that I'd encounter any of it or have to deal with it, so it's easy for me to say. I can honestly say I've had some exposure to some well known and some lesser known but very effective "coaches" of various disciplines in my professional career and in over 30 years of active participation in the business world I've NEVER run across any of these people - from Lynn to Tochini to any of them. They do have an impact in the ex Way community and certain high risk user circles but it's a tiny tiny subset of society. Not to say those they affect aren't important, just that there's not a lot of them from what I see. I may very well be wrong though - you're here and I have no idea what your exposure has been so...yeah.
Thank you, Socks! I have been in seclusion for a long time with a lot of what I find disturbing information. My concern is this: I had to sign a lot of paperwork and go through intense interviewing to make sure I was mentally fit to attend Revenant for four days. Even past mundane counseling and a Xanax would have disqualified me. But I was encouraged to lie. Michael Bryant, my recruiter, knew I took Xanax for years, knew I did some marriage counseling and knew I struggled with issues Revenant could only trigger. Pretty sure they had an agenda. Whatever for me. But the residents. They are primarily in recovery from addiction, a fact Crossing the Jordan definitely would prefer to avoid. Their site has recently undergone a major overhaul and Dan Tocchini is nowhere to be found last I checked. He used to be front and center. Now, my resident has significant psychiatric illness with numerous suicide attempts, hospitalizations and many psych drugs over the years. They never had this young person psychiatrically evaluated, and never requested medical records. How on God’s green earth can these already-traumatized residents be considered anywhere near competent and mentally fit at such an early stage in recovery as to withstand the psychological tactics inflicted upon them? As for the Intrepid Program, I find it tantamount to the practice of rendition. It is brutal. It would just seem obvious that at some point there will be tragic results. I am not hyperbolic by nature, but I just find myself frantic that authorities must intervene. I know so much about Crossing the Jordan and Tocchini, and know him and his wife personally and well enough to know they are not safe people with altruistic intentions. What do you think? Am I overreacting here? Because that would be great.
There's plenty of real horror stories among Momentus survivors. You are not overreacting. They're interested in filling all the seats and getting the money, not actually helping people.
Momentus has left a trail. My impression - and I'll be generous - is that for those who didn't really have serious issues or problems, it was an exercise in self examination via some external parameters and direction. Like people that are 12 pounds overweight going on a strict diet and deciding to start training to run a marathon....Push! Go! You're lazy, get up and put that extra piece of wheat toast down and get out there! Those new $150 dollar running shoes aren't going to tie themselves!! You always do this you lazy assed doofus - now answer to these reactions from others who know you! Face the truth!! You can do it!
As opposed to someone who's 100 pounds overweight, diabetic, on medication and suffering from high blood pressure and terrible year round allergies exacerbated by a sub standard diet and they're disabled and on a fixed income....who requires expert care and experience and a steady diet of healthy, motivating guidance. That person's not going to take well to a ham handed, non professional self developed guidance system. Sure - some of that may be part of the road up and out but where there's a lot of moving parts a very skilled mechanic is required.
Momentus has it's roots in the Bible, Christianity. Christianity is fueled by some very powerful and personal things, ideas, truths. Where it and other programs like it run aground is that they put the emphasis on the process that brings a person to making a decision that can then potentially help them, as in Christianity, a belief in the resurrected Christ, forgiveness of sin, peace with God and a spiritual regeneration that puts a person on a path of "eternal life". The power in that is in Christ, and the act of faith that the person puts forth to trust God and accept His plan for yourself.
The most damaged, invalid non ambulatory crippled blind people that Jesus Christ healed and taught weren't pushed and throttled to "make a decision" and "face their own realities" or anything of the kinds. I can do all of that I want and if it helps me fine but that's not Christianity, that's extra baggage.
Feed the hungry, heal the sick, provide for those with less, all of that is the kind of activity that reflects God's grand generosity but it's contextual - a day will come when those things won't be the issues, nor the personal ones we struggle with in this life.
"Revenant" looks very hmmmm.... "trendy". A re visualization of something that doesn't require it. Jesus doesn't need to be re packaged and presented. That puts most churches and self help groups out of business but it does give everyone a lot more time to "freely give" as they have freely received.
You can skip the froth below but - What I would suggest is if you're concerned and if you haven't, find an attorney or a Social Services professional, say with the County services and ask them about your concerns. Just make it clear, be specific what your interest is, why you have concerns and what can you find out about how all of this works. Let them know you have a personal concern about the specific well being of a person that's involved in the program.
And -
Whether or not they're operating legally in California or not, I don't know. And my answer to the question of "do you have any exact direct contact with these groups or people from which you can base your review" the answer is "no".
(This reminds me a lot of - I've had people swear to me - that the cure to cancer is to take a couple tablespoons of Baking Soda every day, to "alkaline-ize" their "systems", because cancer "cant exist in an alkaline environment", and all the big pharma companies are hiding that from the public so they can get and stay rich.
Cancer cells can't exist in an alkaline environment? At the levels required to fizz out a cancerous growth, neither can we. Our bodies govern ph levels when they're healthy and the idea of dosing a specific area by guzzling baking soda in order to kill cancer cells is ludicrous. It might have an affect on correcting our ph levels but so will a healthy diet and correcting an acidic ph - in fact that can have a huge affect on our overall health. For a person with a serious cancer condition however I wouldn't use a spoonful of Baking Soda and a pat on the back to "cure it". A quazi-professional-folksy approach has benefits as long as it's sound and doesn't go beyond it's own limitations, whatever those might be.
That gets into areas of health care, health insurance, etc. And I am of the opinion that every person deserves to have access to whatever levels of health care they need, as practically and efficiently as possible. Without any moral considerations it's most efficient to be involved in a process early, planned and as needed, rather than later and in emergency, so there's different ways to view the issues and solutions besides "doing what's morally right" - morals don't exist in vacuums - who pays, how we do it, what happens when and to whom and how - those are all issues to be solves. We're a smart nation, we could do it but instead we have crazy ass politicians debating the issue. I'd suggest we have an 8 year old dying of a curable disease and an elderly invalid struggling to breathe debate what they think should be done for them, and do that. For everyone. Just help for Christ's sake, it costs less than several hundred highly paid elected politicians trying to figure it out.)
It reminds me of that because some people force these "solutions" on others and mean well but are motivated by other concerns - not getting the health care they really need might be one, a misguided idea of the teachings of the Bible, or as part of a business, a personal income stream, as part of making a living, That can muddy the waters. If someone's making a buck off my problems, I will absolutely be cautious in how I engage them.
Amd I've always felt that if someone's obeying the laws of the land and is acceptable in their neck of the woods in their local culture, they're free to do as they will. That's based on the idea that we see in the Bible, that while God's plan in Christ and for mankind is an inevitable one we have choices to make of our own "free will." I may disagree and if I have concernsI also have the right to get involved in making things better, if I choose to.
I almost took it, and it would have destroyed me in my disorganized and confused mental state of seeking answers. I have spoken to two Directors of Momentous. Once in 1996 by phone. I was dissuaded to take it by the lack of clear reasons as to why a release was necessary. I had not heard specific horror stories then but only about the extreme intensity of it. Then, the second one a few years ago. Said it was a great seminar, though it destroyed one facet of her personal life. Like her marriage. I had long ago abandoned the idea in 1996 because of that legal Release, and the stories that had emerged, but now it was 2016, and this was a former Board member. Not known here, BTW.
Still, after 20 years, she still believed it was good. Not a thing wrong with it. Stood by it. I know plenty of others who it really messed up. They had no idea what was about to happen, and our training as corpse to tough anything out for God and the Word kept them there in that scary and abusive environment. Then some came out all whacked out. I speak of the ones I know.
Well, if it personal Transformation you're after, then that takes time, and quietness. That can be done on one's own time. No yelling and all that other junk. Momentous is destructive to the Self, and my Board of Directors person applauded the methodology. But, then, she also believes, as of 2016, that vpw was a genius at putting all that diverse material together from all those other teachers, Leonard, Stiles, Kenyon, Pillai, and on and on, and getting it so fabulously to us. And, vpw, in spite of what she knew about him, was tremendous in his teaching and compilation abilities, that personal shortcomings could be noted, but overlooked in favor of the former. We had that discussion 3 or 4 times, and she just could not budge from that view.
We do not speak anymore. The "Eternally Blessed" website is for her Ilk.
That person also LOVED the corpse....the 14th. Need I say more?
I almost took it, and it would have destroyed me in my disorganized and confused mental state of seeking answers. I have spoken to two Directors of Momentous. Once in 1996 by phone. I was dissuaded to take it by the lack of clear reasons as to why a release was necessary. I had not heard specific horror stories then but only about the extreme intensity of it. Then, the second one a few years ago. Said it was a great seminar, though it destroyed one facet of her personal life. Like her marriage. I had long ago abandoned the idea in 1996 because of that legal Release, and the stories that had emerged, but now it was 2016, and this was a former Board member. Not known here, BTW.
Still, after 20 years, she still believed it was good. Not a thing wrong with it. Stood by it. I know plenty of others who it really messed up. They had no idea what was about to happen, and our training as corpse to tough anything out for God and the Word kept them there in that scary and abusive environment. Then some came out all whacked out. I speak of the ones I know.
Well, if it personal Transformation you're after, then that takes time, and quietness. That can be done on one's own time. No yelling and all that other junk. Momentous is destructive to the Self, and my Board of Directors person applauded the methodology. But, then, she also believes, as of 2016, that vpw was a genius at putting all that diverse material together from all those other teachers, Leonard, Stiles, Kenyon, Pillai, and on and on, and getting it so fabulously to us. And, vpw, in spite of what she knew about him, was tremendous in his teaching and compilation abilities, that personal shortcomings could be noted, but overlooked in favor of the former. We had that discussion 3 or 4 times, and she just could not budge from that view.
We do not speak anymore. The "Eternally Blessed" website is for her Ilk.
That person also LOVED the corpse....the 14th. Need I say more?
There's a lot of self guided, self developed and self managed providers out there. People who have decided that through their own experience, intellect and / or personal enlightenment have a way to help others with their problems.
As a consumer of those services I suggest people look at it with at least the same seriousness as they would buying their food or their clothes....asking the questions, where did this come from, how was it made, who made it, how does it hold up? Who else has used these, what did they think?
You eat a can of tuna fish and get sick, every can in your city gets recalled and the world goes crazy warning everyone about the bad tuna. Tuna fish everywhere celebrate and swim worry free for weeks, even months.
You take a "class" and first you have to sign a contract saying that no matter what happens and definitely if anything BAD happens, you won't hold the providers of the class responsible....?
That's stupid. Don't do it. If it's that risky and you have REAL problems and needs, you WANT assurances, and confident guidance so that the risk of what might go wrong is minimized.
I had a triple bypass several years ago. My surgery was my Doctor's "One o'clock". He did two that day, and had done over a 100 such surgeries, plus 100's of other similar and related types of surgery plus years of study and interning prior to his years of actually doing them. We prayed and did everything we know to do as a family, myself included of course, prior to the surgery to make sure that we knew what was going on and going to happen. The hospital did several days of preparation while I was there, communicating with me, prepping me. Fortunately we had the time to do all of that, it could have been an emergency surgery done within hours of diagnosis.
In either scenario, the important issue of my life and my future wasn't in the hands of a guy with a couple sharp knives who'd been a veterinarian until he decided he'd learned enough to work on people and who had a pretty good idea that his methods were better than anyone else's. And wanted to be paid in advance and have me sign a contract saying if I ended up barking like a dog after the surgery I wouldn't hold him responsible.
Momentous? Revenant? (do you get a signed photo of Leonardo DiCaprio with it?)
Come on - let's treat our lives like they count for something and that the God we believe in might have a better way to proceed than someone's latest bright idea income stream.
To everyone who's done these classes and swears by them and say it did them good - you spit in the wind enough times it's not going to hit you back in the face every once in awhile.
But - for those who really really really need to be yelled at and told what doofus's they really really are and need for someone to validate their well being with a few familiar bible verses and a lot of personal innuendo and have a bunch of cash they don't need - see me. I, socks, may be able to help. But it's not cheap.
Edited by socks Is there anybody going to listen to my story? All about the
Hi, Socks. I always thought Hot Tuna was some primo stuff. I have strange tastes, though. Bad chicken, on the other hand, is an aversion I can get behind. Sounds to me like this Momentus gig is some bad chicken, rancid, if you will. Stinky-ola-cola. "Proceed directly to dumpster and pitch it with gusto" kind of stinky.
But - for those who really really really need to be yelled at and told what doofus's they really really are and need for someone to validate their well being with a few familiar bible verses and a lot of personal innuendo and have a bunch of cash they don't need - see me. I, socks, may be able to help. But it's not cheap.
As your comment, James 3:17 occurred to me. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle,andeasy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.18And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Excerpt:
In November 1994, my wife and I participated in a four-day training experience called Momentus. We were persuaded to take Momentus by John A. Lynn, head of a group called Christian Educational Services (CES). He said that Momentus was a Christian training that would help us "get closer to the Lord and to His people." It didn't. In the following testimony, I describe the training as accurately as I can and describe its nonChristian roots.
We can never cease to be vigilant in these last days, since the scriptures warn us that some will preach false teachings which would turn some of the flock away from the greatest revelation of all- God's Word. So we must test what that message against both the spirit within us and the Word of God and look for the fruits that result from the teaching. It is both the message and its vehicle that I see that is wrong about Momentus. And I believe that the Word instructs us to take a stand against those, so that others are not harmed, as were many of us.
I personally suffered as a result of my participation in the Momentus training, as did others I know who are close to me. That is why I struggled for more than a year with it, looking to God's Word for my answers, before I could be certain that I was not just judging the training carnally because of my own sufferings.
A pattern that I'm seeing very strongly is that most people who hear of or become involved with Momentus realize right off in some way that it is wrong, that it's not of God. Some pay heed and are spared the damage of Momentus. Others let themselves be talked into taking the training by men they respect- and suffering the consequences. Too many Christians have let other men talk them out of what the scripture can tell them regarding Momentus and have succumbed to its promotion.
One of the biggest problems I have with Momentus (other than its teachings and practices being derived from nonChristian sources) is the conspiracy of silence surrounding what it's really like.
Excerpt:
In November 1994, my wife and I participated in a four-day training experience called Momentus. We were persuaded to take Momentus by John A. Lynn, head of a group called Christian Educational Services (CES). He said that Momentus was a Christian training that would help us "get closer to the Lord and to His people." It didn't. In the following testimony, I describe the training as accurately as I can and describe its nonChristian roots.
We can never cease to be vigilant in these last days, since the scriptures warn us that some will preach false teachings which would turn some of the flock away from the greatest revelation of all- God's Word. So we must test what that message against both the spirit within us and the Word of God and look for the fruits that result from the teaching. It is both the message and its vehicle that I see that is wrong about Momentus. And I believe that the Word instructs us to take a stand against those, so that others are not harmed, as were many of us.
I personally suffered as a result of my participation in the Momentus training, as did others I know who are close to me. That is why I struggled for more than a year with it, looking to God's Word for my answers, before I could be certain that I was not just judging the training carnally because of my own sufferings.
A pattern that I'm seeing very strongly is that most people who hear of or become involved with Momentus realize right off in some way that it is wrong, that it's not of God. Some pay heed and are spared the damage of Momentus. Others let themselves be talked into taking the training by men they respect- and suffering the consequences. Too many Christians have let other men talk them out of what the scripture can tell them regarding Momentus and have succumbed to its promotion.
One of the biggest problems I have with Momentus (other than its teachings and practices being derived from nonChristian sources) is the conspiracy of silence surrounding what it's really like.
A) JAL never apologized to anyone about bringing in a harmful program, or shilling a harmful program- which he does to this day. Either he DOESN'T CARE it's a harmful program, or he's such a raving idiot he's NOT AWARE it's hurt a LOT of people, and its practices pretty much guarantee it.
It's well-known this is a harmful program. The Momentus people know other people know that- which is why they keep HIDING THE NAME and CHANGING THE NAME. So, if JAL is that slack-witted that he's the only one who doesn't know this is harmful, he has NO business leading ANYBODY.
If JAL DOES know it's harmful and DOESN'T CARE that it harms God's People, then he has NO business leading ANYBODY.
The closest thing we got to a apology was his blanket insult that we would dare to criticize his decisions here.
B) How beneficial can a program be if there's a "conspiracy of silence surrounding what it's really like" (and Momentus certainly has that)? There should be a chance to get a general idea of the outline for the program. (I'm not saying they have to show every instant, but people should be able to make an INFORMED DECISION as to what is suitable for them, not to just to have to "take my word for it and pay for this weekend program."
How "safe" is a program where you have to sign a waiver that exempts them from being responsible if people get hurt? For those who don't know, this is common sense. Any program run to teach anything has certain responsibilities that are expected LEGALLY as well as MORALLY. They are called "fiduciary responsibilities." If you take an exercise program, those responsibilities include making sure the students begin in decent health, and their health isn't jeopardized by the program in any way- no unsafe food supplements, no exercises that MIGHT damage a few but be fine for many, and so on. In a program like Momentus CLAIMS TO BE, there should NOT be the radical breakdown attempts that are part and parcel OF the program- since those lead DIRECTLY to people suffering the breakdowns. Regardless of any papers signed, there's a fiduciary responsibility and the "trainers" are open to civil suits if not criminal ones.
A) JAL never apologized to anyone about bringing in a harmful program, or shilling a harmful program- which he does to this day. Either he DOESN'T CARE it's a harmful program, or he's such a raving idiot he's NOT AWARE it's hurt a LOT of people, and its practices pretty much guarantee it.
It's well-known this is a harmful program. The Momentus people know other people know that- which is why they keep HIDING THE NAME and CHANGING THE NAME. So, if JAL is that slack-witted that he's the only one who doesn't know this is harmful, he has NO business leading ANYBODY.
If JAL DOES know it's harmful and DOESN'T CARE that it harms God's People, then he has NO business leading ANYBODY.
The closest thing we got to a apology was his blanket insult that we would dare to criticize his decisions here.
B) How beneficial can a program be if there's a "conspiracy of silence surrounding what it's really like" (and Momentus certainly has that)? There should be a chance to get a general idea of the outline for the program. (I'm not saying they have to show every instant, but people should be able to make an INFORMED DECISION as to what is suitable for them, not to just to have to "take my word for it and pay for this weekend program."
How "safe" is a program where you have to sign a waiver that exempts them from being responsible if people get hurt? For those who don't know, this is common sense. Any program run to teach anything has certain responsibilities that are expected LEGALLY as well as MORALLY. They are called "fiduciary responsibilities." If you take an exercise program, those responsibilities include making sure the students begin in decent health, and their health isn't jeopardized by the program in any way- no unsafe food supplements, no exercises that MIGHT damage a few but be fine for many, and so on. In a program like Momentus CLAIMS TO BE, there should NOT be the radical breakdown attempts that are part and parcel OF the program- since those lead DIRECTLY to people suffering the breakdowns. Regardless of any papers signed, there's a fiduciary responsibility and the "trainers" are open to civil suits if not criminal ones.
They're similar to Scientology in many respects. Scientology has a range of hold-harmless agreements and contracts they use for their various activities.
Perhaps they'll be a new book - "The Real Jesus Finally Stands Up!".....a re interpretation of the gospels based on early Schoenheit notations in a lost bible only recently discovered and translated from the original Coined Geek, into modern day middle-American english and a DVD version by Lynn himself, with an added humorous commentary track available, cuz it's the best gift you can get at any price! A free excerpt, below:
"And when the multitude had gathered to hear Him, the disciples told Him the people were hungered and thirsty, upon hearing which then Jesus asked that the baskets of fish and bread be brought to him, as well as the freshly scribed Hold Harmless Contracts, of which were distributed first, one to each and ever person with a hand out to receive it, and the ability to sign or nod, that they might relinquish Him of anything they might not like, later or of any sickness or disease or swellings or rashes that might appear to be traced to anything that Jesus said, did, implied, inferred or might have if He'd been there, which may or may not have actually occurred........."
Edited by socks So God provide you the perfect parking place for your brunch snack at Vastly Vegan Cafe' where you had reservations, so that you wouldn't look bad even though you got up late, and He did it cause he loves you so vewwy vewwy much. Got it.
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WordWolf
It's never a good sign when you have to keep changing your group's name so that people don't know who you are. So, "The Revenant Process" and "Blood and Ethos" and "Master Coaches Academy
WordWolf
A) JAL never apologized to anyone about bringing in a harmful program, or shilling a harmful program- which he does to this day. Either he DOESN'T CARE it's a harmful program, or he's such a raving i
socks
They're similar to Scientology in many respects. Scientology has a range of hold-harmless agreements and contracts they use for their various activities. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Scientology/R
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Rocky
Oh brother! Thanks for the warning. I think.
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WordWolf
It's never a good sign when you have to keep changing your group's name so that people don't know who you are.
So, "The Revenant Process" and "Blood and Ethos" and "Master Coaches Academy" and "Efficacius" are all MOMENTUS with a name-change and some window-dressing?
Oh, don't forget "Life Design Coaching" , "Legendary Life Strategy" and "the Hero Being Process."
That's a LOT of names to lose in the shuffle, all for Momentus, which people steer clear of because they've been warned.
https://www.therevenantprocess.com/
https://www.bloodandethos.com/
A "revenant" is a mythic creature, a corpse that drags itself from its grave to haunt the living, and folklorists use it interchangeably with "vampire". The name translates, roughly, as "one who returns." Yeah, Momentus dragged itself from its grave to haunt the living. Sounds about right.
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NoN
I would like to know if anyone has heard of this. Tocchini has designed and implemented a curriculum based on his Blood & Ethos Revenant Training in a residential recovery facility in Santa Rosa — Crossing the Jordan, operated by Michael and Dana Bryant, Tocchini minions and ex-convicts — vehicle theft, insurance fraud, bank robberies — a great story of their own, and Tocchini holds classes and the reigns. I was recruited to attend Revenant with the promise of family reunification. Residents are immersed in the ideology for months and family members are recruited to attend the Revenant and beyond. Residents, though, are required to attend Revenant as part of the curriculum, but for these folks Revenant is mere kids’ stuff — anybody heard of Intrepid Training? Anyway, since California does not require licensing for residential recovery facilities, Tocchini and the Bryants are free to run amok and make a ton of money exploiting a despairing subset of the population who are already weakened, stigmatized and marginalized. Nobody is watching. There’s more. A lot more. Every sentence is a book in itself. I truly need the thoughts, opinions, stories, knowledge of others. I do struggle to understand.
Edited by NoNText too big
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socks
Well. let's see....
Tochini has a long history in northern California. (his family owned businesses in Sonoma county, some movie theaters.) I have never met the man but have met people over the years who have been involved in his self-help pseudo Christian activities - people outside of the ex Way circle, who have no past connection to The Way, John Lynn or other former Wayfers who have since hooked up with Tochini. None of the people I've met were happy with their experience or the results of his efforts, certainly no ringing recommendations. This goes back to before Momentous when he broke away from his church, to Momentous and now this. In between he's done some other businesses, I think he had a web/internet marketing thing going for awhile, some sort of platform/service offering. I only hear about them through certain sources I have, never on the open market where I don't believe he has a great impact, but I could be wrong.
This link has a post from 2018 - https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,7414
Look at their site - they have multiple businesses they offer in addition to their "Academy" of self help. https://crossingthejordan.org/our-story/
It's a free country. Unfortunately that does allow some of these people to take advantage of people who need help the most. At the same time I'm sure some of these self-helpers believe they're doing something useful.
My advice on face value would be to steer clear of anything with Tochini's name on it but there is no scenario in any stretch of the imagination that I'd encounter any of it or have to deal with it, so it's easy for me to say. I can honestly say I've had some exposure to some well known and some lesser known but very effective "coaches" of various disciplines in my professional career and in over 30 years of active participation in the business world I've NEVER run across any of these people - from Lynn to Tochini to any of them. They do have an impact in the ex Way community and certain high risk user circles but it's a tiny tiny subset of society. Not to say those they affect aren't important, just that there's not a lot of them from what I see. I may very well be wrong though - you're here and I have no idea what your exposure has been so...yeah.
What is it you're most concerned about?
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NoN
Thank you, Socks! I have been in seclusion for a long time with a lot of what I find disturbing information. My concern is this: I had to sign a lot of paperwork and go through intense interviewing to make sure I was mentally fit to attend Revenant for four days. Even past mundane counseling and a Xanax would have disqualified me. But I was encouraged to lie. Michael Bryant, my recruiter, knew I took Xanax for years, knew I did some marriage counseling and knew I struggled with issues Revenant could only trigger. Pretty sure they had an agenda. Whatever for me. But the residents. They are primarily in recovery from addiction, a fact Crossing the Jordan definitely would prefer to avoid. Their site has recently undergone a major overhaul and Dan Tocchini is nowhere to be found last I checked. He used to be front and center. Now, my resident has significant psychiatric illness with numerous suicide attempts, hospitalizations and many psych drugs over the years. They never had this young person psychiatrically evaluated, and never requested medical records. How on God’s green earth can these already-traumatized residents be considered anywhere near competent and mentally fit at such an early stage in recovery as to withstand the psychological tactics inflicted upon them? As for the Intrepid Program, I find it tantamount to the practice of rendition. It is brutal. It would just seem obvious that at some point there will be tragic results. I am not hyperbolic by nature, but I just find myself frantic that authorities must intervene. I know so much about Crossing the Jordan and Tocchini, and know him and his wife personally and well enough to know they are not safe people with altruistic intentions. What do you think? Am I overreacting here? Because that would be great.
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WordWolf
There's plenty of real horror stories among Momentus survivors. You are not overreacting. They're interested in filling all the seats and getting the money, not actually helping people.
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socks
Sure -
Momentus has left a trail. My impression - and I'll be generous - is that for those who didn't really have serious issues or problems, it was an exercise in self examination via some external parameters and direction. Like people that are 12 pounds overweight going on a strict diet and deciding to start training to run a marathon....Push! Go! You're lazy, get up and put that extra piece of wheat toast down and get out there! Those new $150 dollar running shoes aren't going to tie themselves!! You always do this you lazy assed doofus - now answer to these reactions from others who know you! Face the truth!! You can do it!
As opposed to someone who's 100 pounds overweight, diabetic, on medication and suffering from high blood pressure and terrible year round allergies exacerbated by a sub standard diet and they're disabled and on a fixed income....who requires expert care and experience and a steady diet of healthy, motivating guidance. That person's not going to take well to a ham handed, non professional self developed guidance system. Sure - some of that may be part of the road up and out but where there's a lot of moving parts a very skilled mechanic is required.
Momentus has it's roots in the Bible, Christianity. Christianity is fueled by some very powerful and personal things, ideas, truths. Where it and other programs like it run aground is that they put the emphasis on the process that brings a person to making a decision that can then potentially help them, as in Christianity, a belief in the resurrected Christ, forgiveness of sin, peace with God and a spiritual regeneration that puts a person on a path of "eternal life". The power in that is in Christ, and the act of faith that the person puts forth to trust God and accept His plan for yourself.
The most damaged, invalid non ambulatory crippled blind people that Jesus Christ healed and taught weren't pushed and throttled to "make a decision" and "face their own realities" or anything of the kinds. I can do all of that I want and if it helps me fine but that's not Christianity, that's extra baggage.
Feed the hungry, heal the sick, provide for those with less, all of that is the kind of activity that reflects God's grand generosity but it's contextual - a day will come when those things won't be the issues, nor the personal ones we struggle with in this life.
"Revenant" looks very hmmmm.... "trendy". A re visualization of something that doesn't require it. Jesus doesn't need to be re packaged and presented. That puts most churches and self help groups out of business but it does give everyone a lot more time to "freely give" as they have freely received.
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socks
You can skip the froth below but - What I would suggest is if you're concerned and if you haven't, find an attorney or a Social Services professional, say with the County services and ask them about your concerns. Just make it clear, be specific what your interest is, why you have concerns and what can you find out about how all of this works. Let them know you have a personal concern about the specific well being of a person that's involved in the program.
And -
Whether or not they're operating legally in California or not, I don't know. And my answer to the question of "do you have any exact direct contact with these groups or people from which you can base your review" the answer is "no".
(This reminds me a lot of - I've had people swear to me - that the cure to cancer is to take a couple tablespoons of Baking Soda every day, to "alkaline-ize" their "systems", because cancer "cant exist in an alkaline environment", and all the big pharma companies are hiding that from the public so they can get and stay rich.
Cancer cells can't exist in an alkaline environment? At the levels required to fizz out a cancerous growth, neither can we. Our bodies govern ph levels when they're healthy and the idea of dosing a specific area by guzzling baking soda in order to kill cancer cells is ludicrous. It might have an affect on correcting our ph levels but so will a healthy diet and correcting an acidic ph - in fact that can have a huge affect on our overall health. For a person with a serious cancer condition however I wouldn't use a spoonful of Baking Soda and a pat on the back to "cure it". A quazi-professional-folksy approach has benefits as long as it's sound and doesn't go beyond it's own limitations, whatever those might be.
That gets into areas of health care, health insurance, etc. And I am of the opinion that every person deserves to have access to whatever levels of health care they need, as practically and efficiently as possible. Without any moral considerations it's most efficient to be involved in a process early, planned and as needed, rather than later and in emergency, so there's different ways to view the issues and solutions besides "doing what's morally right" - morals don't exist in vacuums - who pays, how we do it, what happens when and to whom and how - those are all issues to be solves. We're a smart nation, we could do it but instead we have crazy ass politicians debating the issue. I'd suggest we have an 8 year old dying of a curable disease and an elderly invalid struggling to breathe debate what they think should be done for them, and do that. For everyone. Just help for Christ's sake, it costs less than several hundred highly paid elected politicians trying to figure it out.)
It reminds me of that because some people force these "solutions" on others and mean well but are motivated by other concerns - not getting the health care they really need might be one, a misguided idea of the teachings of the Bible, or as part of a business, a personal income stream, as part of making a living, That can muddy the waters. If someone's making a buck off my problems, I will absolutely be cautious in how I engage them.
Amd I've always felt that if someone's obeying the laws of the land and is acceptable in their neck of the woods in their local culture, they're free to do as they will. That's based on the idea that we see in the Bible, that while God's plan in Christ and for mankind is an inevitable one we have choices to make of our own "free will." I may disagree and if I have concernsI also have the right to get involved in making things better, if I choose to.
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engine
Stay away from Momentous.
I almost took it, and it would have destroyed me in my disorganized and confused mental state of seeking answers. I have spoken to two Directors of Momentous. Once in 1996 by phone. I was dissuaded to take it by the lack of clear reasons as to why a release was necessary. I had not heard specific horror stories then but only about the extreme intensity of it. Then, the second one a few years ago. Said it was a great seminar, though it destroyed one facet of her personal life. Like her marriage. I had long ago abandoned the idea in 1996 because of that legal Release, and the stories that had emerged, but now it was 2016, and this was a former Board member. Not known here, BTW.
Still, after 20 years, she still believed it was good. Not a thing wrong with it. Stood by it. I know plenty of others who it really messed up. They had no idea what was about to happen, and our training as corpse to tough anything out for God and the Word kept them there in that scary and abusive environment. Then some came out all whacked out. I speak of the ones I know.
Well, if it personal Transformation you're after, then that takes time, and quietness. That can be done on one's own time. No yelling and all that other junk. Momentous is destructive to the Self, and my Board of Directors person applauded the methodology. But, then, she also believes, as of 2016, that vpw was a genius at putting all that diverse material together from all those other teachers, Leonard, Stiles, Kenyon, Pillai, and on and on, and getting it so fabulously to us. And, vpw, in spite of what she knew about him, was tremendous in his teaching and compilation abilities, that personal shortcomings could be noted, but overlooked in favor of the former. We had that discussion 3 or 4 times, and she just could not budge from that view.
We do not speak anymore. The "Eternally Blessed" website is for her Ilk.
That person also LOVED the corpse....the 14th. Need I say more?
Edited by enginegeneral info
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socks
There's a lot of self guided, self developed and self managed providers out there. People who have decided that through their own experience, intellect and / or personal enlightenment have a way to help others with their problems.
As a consumer of those services I suggest people look at it with at least the same seriousness as they would buying their food or their clothes....asking the questions, where did this come from, how was it made, who made it, how does it hold up? Who else has used these, what did they think?
You eat a can of tuna fish and get sick, every can in your city gets recalled and the world goes crazy warning everyone about the bad tuna. Tuna fish everywhere celebrate and swim worry free for weeks, even months.
You take a "class" and first you have to sign a contract saying that no matter what happens and definitely if anything BAD happens, you won't hold the providers of the class responsible....?
That's stupid. Don't do it. If it's that risky and you have REAL problems and needs, you WANT assurances, and confident guidance so that the risk of what might go wrong is minimized.
I had a triple bypass several years ago. My surgery was my Doctor's "One o'clock". He did two that day, and had done over a 100 such surgeries, plus 100's of other similar and related types of surgery plus years of study and interning prior to his years of actually doing them. We prayed and did everything we know to do as a family, myself included of course, prior to the surgery to make sure that we knew what was going on and going to happen. The hospital did several days of preparation while I was there, communicating with me, prepping me. Fortunately we had the time to do all of that, it could have been an emergency surgery done within hours of diagnosis.
In either scenario, the important issue of my life and my future wasn't in the hands of a guy with a couple sharp knives who'd been a veterinarian until he decided he'd learned enough to work on people and who had a pretty good idea that his methods were better than anyone else's. And wanted to be paid in advance and have me sign a contract saying if I ended up barking like a dog after the surgery I wouldn't hold him responsible.
Momentous? Revenant? (do you get a signed photo of Leonardo DiCaprio with it?)
Come on - let's treat our lives like they count for something and that the God we believe in might have a better way to proceed than someone's latest bright idea income stream.
To everyone who's done these classes and swears by them and say it did them good - you spit in the wind enough times it's not going to hit you back in the face every once in awhile.
But - for those who really really really need to be yelled at and told what doofus's they really really are and need for someone to validate their well being with a few familiar bible verses and a lot of personal innuendo and have a bunch of cash they don't need - see me. I, socks, may be able to help. But it's not cheap.
Edited by socksIs there anybody going to listen to my story? All about the
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waysider
Hi, Socks. I always thought Hot Tuna was some primo stuff. I have strange tastes, though. Bad chicken, on the other hand, is an aversion I can get behind. Sounds to me like this Momentus gig is some bad chicken, rancid, if you will. Stinky-ola-cola. "Proceed directly to dumpster and pitch it with gusto" kind of stinky.
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Rocky
Ooooh! Count me in... (j/k)
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johnj
click here (www.abouttheway.org) for a menu to about a dozen articles on momentus/ breakthrough
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/tw_momentus.htm
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Rocky
As your comment, James 3:17 occurred to me.
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
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Rocky
Here's link to one of those articles.
Excerpt:
In November 1994, my wife and I participated in a four-day training experience called Momentus. We were persuaded to take Momentus by John A. Lynn, head of a group called Christian Educational Services (CES). He said that Momentus was a Christian training that would help us "get closer to the Lord and to His people." It didn't. In the following testimony, I describe the training as accurately as I can and describe its nonChristian roots.
We can never cease to be vigilant in these last days, since the scriptures warn us that some will preach false teachings which would turn some of the flock away from the greatest revelation of all- God's Word. So we must test what that message against both the spirit within us and the Word of God and look for the fruits that result from the teaching. It is both the message and its vehicle that I see that is wrong about Momentus. And I believe that the Word instructs us to take a stand against those, so that others are not harmed, as were many of us.
I personally suffered as a result of my participation in the Momentus training, as did others I know who are close to me. That is why I struggled for more than a year with it, looking to God's Word for my answers, before I could be certain that I was not just judging the training carnally because of my own sufferings.
A pattern that I'm seeing very strongly is that most people who hear of or become involved with Momentus realize right off in some way that it is wrong, that it's not of God. Some pay heed and are spared the damage of Momentus. Others let themselves be talked into taking the training by men they respect- and suffering the consequences. Too many Christians have let other men talk them out of what the scripture can tell them regarding Momentus and have succumbed to its promotion.
One of the biggest problems I have with Momentus (other than its teachings and practices being derived from nonChristian sources) is the conspiracy of silence surrounding what it's really like.
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WordWolf
A) JAL never apologized to anyone about bringing in a harmful program, or shilling a harmful program- which he does to this day. Either he DOESN'T CARE it's a harmful program, or he's such a raving idiot he's NOT AWARE it's hurt a LOT of people, and its practices pretty much guarantee it.
It's well-known this is a harmful program. The Momentus people know other people know that- which is why they keep HIDING THE NAME and CHANGING THE NAME. So, if JAL is that slack-witted that he's the only one who doesn't know this is harmful, he has NO business leading ANYBODY.
If JAL DOES know it's harmful and DOESN'T CARE that it harms God's People, then he has NO business leading ANYBODY.
The closest thing we got to a apology was his blanket insult that we would dare to criticize his decisions here.
B) How beneficial can a program be if there's a "conspiracy of silence surrounding what it's really like" (and Momentus certainly has that)? There should be a chance to get a general idea of the outline for the program. (I'm not saying they have to show every instant, but people should be able to make an INFORMED DECISION as to what is suitable for them, not to just to have to "take my word for it and pay for this weekend program."
How "safe" is a program where you have to sign a waiver that exempts them from being responsible if people get hurt? For those who don't know, this is common sense. Any program run to teach anything has certain responsibilities that are expected LEGALLY as well as MORALLY. They are called "fiduciary responsibilities." If you take an exercise program, those responsibilities include making sure the students begin in decent health, and their health isn't jeopardized by the program in any way- no unsafe food supplements, no exercises that MIGHT damage a few but be fine for many, and so on. In a program like Momentus CLAIMS TO BE, there should NOT be the radical breakdown attempts that are part and parcel OF the program- since those lead DIRECTLY to people suffering the breakdowns. Regardless of any papers signed, there's a fiduciary responsibility and the "trainers" are open to civil suits if not criminal ones.
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socks
They're similar to Scientology in many respects. Scientology has a range of hold-harmless agreements and contracts they use for their various activities.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Scientology/ReleaseForms/
Perhaps they'll be a new book - "The Real Jesus Finally Stands Up!".....a re interpretation of the gospels based on early Schoenheit notations in a lost bible only recently discovered and translated from the original Coined Geek, into modern day middle-American english and a DVD version by Lynn himself, with an added humorous commentary track available, cuz it's the best gift you can get at any price! A free excerpt, below:
"And when the multitude had gathered to hear Him, the disciples told Him the people were hungered and thirsty, upon hearing which then Jesus asked that the baskets of fish and bread be brought to him, as well as the freshly scribed Hold Harmless Contracts, of which were distributed first, one to each and ever person with a hand out to receive it, and the ability to sign or nod, that they might relinquish Him of anything they might not like, later or of any sickness or disease or swellings or rashes that might appear to be traced to anything that Jesus said, did, implied, inferred or might have if He'd been there, which may or may not have actually occurred........."
Edited by socksSo God provide you the perfect parking place for your brunch snack at Vastly Vegan Cafe' where you had reservations, so that you wouldn't look bad even though you got up late, and He did it cause he loves you so vewwy vewwy much. Got it.
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