I also have noticed that liar hasn`t had the courage to come back and read what we wrote or even engage us in a dialog...I can only imagine how *fair* that he would be if anyone were silly enough to take him up on his stupid offer....he was just in a ....ing contest...
I talked to LLPOF on Saturday. LLPOF has to have all posts approved by moderators. LLPOF doesn't like that so says probably no more posts. Hey, Rascal. I can see the wheels turning in your head. LLPOF and Johniam KNOW each other!!! GSC fits like a hand in a glove, doesn't it?
quote:I've been to St. Louis in July and I ain't goin' there again.
In 1843 Charles Dickens came to STL. When someone asked him later what he thought of STL, all he could say was, "It was hot!"
In 1880 the great great grandpa of our current president bought the property in Kennebunkport, ME at which the present day Bush family often vacations just so he'd have somewhere to go to escape STL, where he lived at the time, during the summer.
It's going to be in the 90's this week again. Up in MI where I moved here from 4 yrs ago there are plenty of 90 plus days, but you don't need AC if you have a few well placed oscillating fans. Here? Forget it. It's just brutal, although STL Cardinals pitcher Woody Williams says it isn't anything compared to Houston.
Ooops....well I guess if liar refuses to write posts in a manner that can pass moderation.......can`t be all that important to him to express....our loss no doubt.......
As far as you knowing him...I don`t know why you think that would suprise me.....maybe you share a thing or two in common.....
quote: God is the ultimate Judge, not man; even if one thinks they know so much about another man's sinful life.
Precisely. If VPW were still alive, more than likely he'd be the one getting the biggest belly laugh out of the things people here have said about him. Yes sir. Plenty of people said some mighty ludicrous things about him when he was alive, but those things have only become more farcical since he's been dead!
But you won't find me going to the lengths to defend VPW like LLPOF. As VPW said so many times, "Truth needs no defense, only error needs to be defended." But I am convinced some people (like rascal) won't stop in their "mission" until they've convinced everyone VPW was the devil incarnate, or like Mike, who won't stop in his "mission" either, until he's convinced everyone the works of VPW (i.e. PFAL) is purer than the Word of God!
It seems to me like everybody here at GS Cafe is on some sort of "mission" today. Your here either to condemn VPW and TWI to hell, or your here to laud him and his works (including TWI ministry) to the heavens! I'd like to say the B.S. around here just couldn't get any deeper, but then, I supposed I'd be wrong about that one too.
I feel sorry for anyone that is still all hung up on the "great leader(s)" of twi. I always think about how pathetic I was when I was pushing the company line.
It's almost the same as some kind of addiction that is destructive but one can't beat. You know it's their own fault but somehow still pity them.
No one listens to me...but sometimes you gotta just shake your head & consider the source.
What the hey, I have no mission, that`s just silly.
I understand that it bothers you when I speak of vpw`s evil, it ought to. He is not the man you believed him to be, you were betrayed.
It is a lot easier to close ones eyes and ears and pretend that it didn`t happen and stay in our *comfy* area, than it is to deal with the messy truth....however, messy as the truth is...it is when you finally acknowledge the reality of the betrayal....the depths of depravety perpetrated by one we trusted...that you can begin to heal.
As for vp *belly laughing* A poster calling himself H----- A---n. once wrote a letter to wd bragging about how a bunch of dirt farmers cheated all of us out of our money, took our wives and daughters and anything else that they wanted....laughed their a--es off all the way to the bank ...basically all we could do was whine....apperantly that is how they viewed us wth, ...suckers that they patted themselves on the back for being clever enough to *take*...Suprisingly, I agree with you ... vpw would probably still be laughing at us...no doubt the current bod does as well, they DID end up with all of the property and money that we spent decades of our lives earning and procuring for them.....laughing at us, gloating over their victory, ...that is not a good thing.
So you want to challenge us? I have a challenge for you also. Your idol Victor Wierwille not only was guilty of sin unbecoming of a household fellowship coordinator. He also spread doctrinal and practical error with his use of the Way Tree as a religious hierachical power structure. Victor's only reason for the Way Tree was so that he could extend religious and financial control on God's people involved with his ministry. If you are up for a challenge compare the teaching from the below link with Victor's use of the Way Tree as a religious power structure and then get back to me. This is a legitimate challenge. Now we can see if you are more than just a loud bark.
Liar Liar as long as you post here I am going to keep posting the above with the link. Victor Wierwille had not only practical error and sin in his life, but he also had a great deal of doctrinal error. The above is important to look at in order to understand what was behind Wierwille's biblically unsound and very self serving religious dogma.
quote: What the hey, I have no mission, that`s just silly.
So what you are really saying is you have nothing at all in your life you are truly passionate about? Frankly I don't believe you; not for one iota of one second. Why? Because the Word of God says, "... for out of the abundace of the heart the mouth speaketh. "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things." Matthew 12:34-35.
Was VPW perfect? Cetainly not. Did things come out of his mouth that were evil? Yep, he slipped up frequently and many things did. But then Matthew is speaking of the "abundance" of the heart, not someone's inability to properly deal with these extremely frustrating circumstances in their life.
I was around long enough to realize there were many, many, many frustrating circumstances in the life of VPW and TWI, just like there are many, many, many of them for us. I would be the first to admit VPW never dealt with those circumstances properly, but then, many of us don't do any better of a job dealing with them ourselves. But does that make you evil just because you don't know how to properly deal with some very frustrating circumstances in your life?
It's not so much what happens to you in life that matters, but how you react and deal with certain situations and circumstances. That is what matters the most. I think it was Mike who said on one thread, "If you are judged by the code that you judge by, you’d be mortified. There’s only one who was sinless." I don't know any human being that is completly perfect, except one - and He left this earth thousands of years ago.
Just say something good or bad about VPW, LCM, TWI, etc. and sooner or later you're bound to rub someone's fur here the wrong way and get a reaction out of them. As far as I've been able to tell, it all depends what side of the fence you're on and what you are truly passionate about.
That is rediculous What the hey, where do you get the idea that *no mission* means *no passion*? That is stupid...I have plenty of passion.....confronting idolotry, and exposing vpw for the wolf in sheeps clothing that he was.... happens to be something that I believe is important.....When one realises that we were viley betrayed by the one we trusted, the scales begin to fall from our eyes, and the plugs from our ears....we are free to hear God and begin new understanding of God and see his blessings once again....besides, it just plain ....es me off that we were fooled...that our trust and naievety...our quest for God were our down fall.
I see you folks who get upset when talk about vpw`s betrayal of his ministry, His God and the people seeking that God as having your eyes screwed tightly shut with your fingers jammed in your ears singing LA LA LA LA ...I can`t HEEEEEAAAAR you.
I guess that it is the difference between viewing him as a *good man who made mistakes* or a *wolf in sheeps clothing seeking whom he can devour*...Galations chapter 5 declares anyone who indulges in vpw`s behaviors to be a *man after the flesh*
rather than a *man after the spirit*
He isn`t who you guys thought he was...the ministry was not what we thought we were building....how you view him and his teachings directly affects our grasp and understanding of God.
I understand that you wish that we wouldn`t talk about the evil... it disturbs you ... I`ll tell ya, it`s just like when I run across a venomous snake .... I am not shy about warning the kiddos of it`s location...the neighbors...any possible guests of it`s location....it`s proclivity to bite when provoked or the disasterous results of such exposure....it is the same with vpw and his ministry wth...it is all in how you look at it whether you see healthy warning or evil speaking.
What the hey, How we deal with *frustrating circumstances* defines who and what we are in this life.
In ANY of lifes circumstance...you have two choices...You can either suck it up and still act with decency, honor and integrety no matter how difficult situations are....or you can use it as an excuse to pander to your weakness....
My husband comes from a long line of destructive alcoholics....your reasoning that the destruction meted out by vpw was acceptable and forgivable because *lifes frustrations* drove him to this behavior....is the same cop out lies that my alcohoplic relatives used when they were too weak and selfish to give up the booze ...or the abusive selfish behavior that has destroyed three generations of multiple families.
See wth, a person of good character and intergrity would have STILL behaved in a decent manner ...no matter WHAT lifes frustrations were....
Gee, lessee ... the poor guy had millions at his disposal...no money woes...no health woes......had a devoted wife and family...had the prayers, love and support of tens of thousands of devoted bretheren....the best foods, the finest *toys* .....could write his own ticket....and the poor guy was STILL SOOOOO frustrated ...that he habitually indulged in booze .... the seduction of naieve young womnen...adultry ... viscious meanness....you think we should cut hiom some slack because he had some *frustrtations&?
Many of us have had it a hell of a lot worse and have not embraced evil.....
Who is evil wth? really...VPW indulged in the evil behavior.... embraced it with both arms...in the process hurt thousands...destroyed hundreds.....and yet you are mad at us for simply talking about it?
quote: exposing vpw for the wolf in sheeps clothing that he was.... happens to be something that I believe is important.....
Sounds a whole lot like someone with a passion and on a very specific mission to me. But in an earlier post you had written:
quote: What the hey, I have no mission, that`s just silly.
But you're not the only one who is in the same boat I see. There is the reason I don't take much of anything you (or much of what anybody else for that matter) has to say about VPW with any credibilty - whether it be good or bad - especially if you're one of those people who changes their tune whenever it suits them. Even more ludicrous is the remark -
quote: how you view him [VPW] and his teachings directly affects our grasp and understanding of God.
That's also the reason your understanding of Galatians 5 is jaded. Galatians 5 talks about standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free and not being entagled again with the yoke of bondage. But there's always someone willing to raise the dead VPW and his sins. Sounds like someone becoming entagled with the yoke of bondage again, and the Word of God says we're not supposed to be entagled with it.
If we are therefore called to liberty, our mission is not one of using our liberty to serve the flesh, (there's no better way of doing it than bringing up the past, recalling your sins or someone elses for that matter) but by love serving one another. (v13) Anything other than that is someone on a mission to cause trouble; and the previous verse says, "I would they were even cut off which trouble you." (v12)
So have I troubled you rascal or anybody else for that matter? Likely I have if you're someone who believes VPW is the savior of mankind or something like that, as a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump, but that persuasion cometh not of him [Jesus Christ] that calleth you.
P.S. What makes you think I was excusing VPW, especially when I also stated:
quote:"I would be the first to admit VPW never dealt with those circumstances [and I was refering to frustrating cirmcumstances] properly, but then, many of us don't do any better of a job dealing with them ourselves.
Precisely. If VPW were still alive, more than likely he'd be the one getting the biggest belly laugh out of the things people here have said about him. Yes sir. Plenty of people said some mighty ludicrous things about him when he was alive, but those things have only become more farcical since he's been dead!
Hmmmm... I'd think if he were still alive he'd be defending himself from numerous lawsuits and/or sexual harassment complaints...
quote: But you're not the only one who is in the same boat I see. There is the reason I don't take much of anything you (or much of what anybody else for that matter) has to say about VPW with any credibilty ...
and so on and so forth, ad nauseum.
Nope chief! The reason why you don't take Rascal's or anybody else's word that criticizes VPW and shows him to be the song-and-dance con man and abuser that he really is, is because you have so-o-o much of your integrity (such that it is) and your commitment wrapped up in VPW's credibility as the Teacher of the Word of God such as it hasn't been taught since the first century, et al. You've been like this l-o-n-g before now.
You have this immense opposition to admitting that VPW was/became a fraud. A lot of us did, either when we were in TWI, or even after we left. And no Virginia, I don't buy the 'mind control' half-baked diagnosis either, but then again, I don't have to. ... All this 'VPW apologetics' is based on blind faith in a man/organization/whatever. The kind of faith where you dedicate yourself to believe in [fill in the blank], and remain loyal to it, even to the expense of uncomfortable facts and truths. And when you are at the level that folks like you, Smikeol, Oldies to some degree, and others are, its a BIG piece of crow to munch on to admit that "Ok, so I believed in something that didn't work out like I thought it was. I made a mistake".
Did you see that post made by Eagle (called 'Christian Heritage Online') about his site going over what he learned at TWI? Did you see the honesty that he showed in admitting that he now sees VPW as not being the individual that he originally thought? **That took guts! Real, manly, mature, guts!!**
You going to be like that regarding this kind of honesty? Or are you going to be, using the recent words of Ah-nold the Governator, ... 'a girlie-man'?
(This was not meant to imply that women don't have guts/courage due to their sex. I'm just using terms that I think WTH can identify with. ;)-->)
quote: What you call "VPW apologetics" may also be defined as a whole range of perspectives differing from yours.
Of course they differ, and that is neither here nor there. What is the deciding point is the validity or lack thereof of the points that differ one way or another.
quote: God is the ultimate judge
So that pretty much precludes any judgement/discernment that we are capable of making about what the man did? What he was? .... Ahhhh, nope! Not in this life!
And besides, I am wary of statements like 'God will judge' that are made in a dodge-the-issue manner. ... Oh, and how many people do you 'judge' due to them being 'off the Word', especially when it comes to your pet doctrines, like the Trinity, the dead being alive now, etc., based on what you learned in PFAL, hmmmm?
quote:So that pretty much precludes any judgement/discernment that we are capable of making about what the man did? What he was? ....
Experiences vary. Your perspective is different from mine. What I mean by God being the ultimate Judge is He knows all, sees all, and has perfect perspective, whereas we don't. Doesn't mean you can't make a judgment, just don't expect me to swallow everything you think is true, and vice versa. We each have our own opinions.
quote: Experiences vary. ..... Doesn't mean you can't make a judgment, just don't expect me to swallow everything you think is true, and vice versa. We each have our own opinions.
All of which have no bearing on *that which actually happened*.
Um what the hey, you are seeing *missions* where none exist......kind of like those conspiracy folks....sorry, you are off base here.
I can however, be damn good and mad about betrayal of the magnatude that vpw perpetrated.......and it is possible to get really cheesed when someone wants to down play enormity of the damage...or wants to EXCUSE vileness of that betrayal....or call my friends and I liars by claiming that the betrayal never occured....
To voice the deepest disgust for a man whom perpetrated such fraud in God`s name.....and to vehemently disagree with those who would have us believe that he was a *good* guy ...that is not the definition of a *mission* nor is it evil....
I don`t understand why anything you have said so far would make me uncomfortable....
I repeat...
A person of character acts with integrity when NOONE is watching.....vpw should have conducted himself with unimpeachable morals and manifested a sterling character if...IF he wanted to be a representative of God and the scriptures....if he wanted to fullfill his lusts at others expense......use people... destroy the lives that turned to him for the answeres he claimed to have f....then he by God should have chosen another life`s work, rather than giving God and christianity a huge black eye.
He led thousands to the Lord Jesus Christ, sins and all. Wow!
Rascal, you don't (or refuse to) see what good he actually did. Or, you just simply dismiss it, don't give it any consideration at all, but instead focus entirely on his evil works.
I have a different perspective than you...
There's enough goodies in PFAL, and were enough goodies in twi-1, for me to say unequivocally that I'm glad VPW chose Christianity as a vocation. ...
Victor may have led thousands to Jesus Christ, but then Victor replaced looking to Jesus with looking to his organization and religious hierarchy faster than most of us could blink one eye.
I think that God worked in SPITE of vpw oldies...suuuure he led folks to jesus....then he used the respect gained tthe trust garnered to lower defenses and lure folks into the snare.
Sounds like a con to me....sounds like God and the bible were the bait used to lure us in and then lower our natural wariness......sure the bait had to be reeeeally appealing to lure us in and lower our wariness...for us to ignore the warning bells...
Gee whiz...He can`t be all bad can he? He taught me the bible...Guess what oldies....I heard one of Jim Jones followers on tv once, voice the exact same thing....*but he led me to Jesus*...*he taught the bible* I suppose you guys are willing to make the same argument and excuses for ole Jimbo as vp?
I am new to this board. but i posted my story and beliefs on what i beleive were serious doctrinal errors under a new topic, My story and beliefs about the Lord and Way International. Hope you guys enjoy.
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johniam
quote:
I also have noticed that liar hasn`t had the courage to come back and read what we wrote or even engage us in a dialog...I can only imagine how *fair* that he would be if anyone were silly enough to take him up on his stupid offer....he was just in a ....ing contest...
I talked to LLPOF on Saturday. LLPOF has to have all posts approved by moderators. LLPOF doesn't like that so says probably no more posts. Hey, Rascal. I can see the wheels turning in your head. LLPOF and Johniam KNOW each other!!! GSC fits like a hand in a glove, doesn't it?
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johniam
Pirate:
quote:I've been to St. Louis in July and I ain't goin' there again.
In 1843 Charles Dickens came to STL. When someone asked him later what he thought of STL, all he could say was, "It was hot!"
In 1880 the great great grandpa of our current president bought the property in Kennebunkport, ME at which the present day Bush family often vacations just so he'd have somewhere to go to escape STL, where he lived at the time, during the summer.
It's going to be in the 90's this week again. Up in MI where I moved here from 4 yrs ago there are plenty of 90 plus days, but you don't need AC if you have a few well placed oscillating fans. Here? Forget it. It's just brutal, although STL Cardinals pitcher Woody Williams says it isn't anything compared to Houston.
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rascal
Ooops....well I guess if liar refuses to write posts in a manner that can pass moderation.......can`t be all that important to him to express....our loss no doubt.......
As far as you knowing him...I don`t know why you think that would suprise me.....maybe you share a thing or two in common.....
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What The Hay
Precisely. If VPW were still alive, more than likely he'd be the one getting the biggest belly laugh out of the things people here have said about him. Yes sir. Plenty of people said some mighty ludicrous things about him when he was alive, but those things have only become more farcical since he's been dead!
But you won't find me going to the lengths to defend VPW like LLPOF. As VPW said so many times, "Truth needs no defense, only error needs to be defended." But I am convinced some people (like rascal) won't stop in their "mission" until they've convinced everyone VPW was the devil incarnate, or like Mike, who won't stop in his "mission" either, until he's convinced everyone the works of VPW (i.e. PFAL) is purer than the Word of God!
It seems to me like everybody here at GS Cafe is on some sort of "mission" today. Your here either to condemn VPW and TWI to hell, or your here to laud him and his works (including TWI ministry) to the heavens! I'd like to say the B.S. around here just couldn't get any deeper, but then, I supposed I'd be wrong about that one too.
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LuckyGirl
I feel sorry for anyone that is still all hung up on the "great leader(s)" of twi. I always think about how pathetic I was when I was pushing the company line.
It's almost the same as some kind of addiction that is destructive but one can't beat. You know it's their own fault but somehow still pity them.
No one listens to me...but sometimes you gotta just shake your head & consider the source.
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rascal
What the hey, I have no mission, that`s just silly.
I understand that it bothers you when I speak of vpw`s evil, it ought to. He is not the man you believed him to be, you were betrayed.
It is a lot easier to close ones eyes and ears and pretend that it didn`t happen and stay in our *comfy* area, than it is to deal with the messy truth....however, messy as the truth is...it is when you finally acknowledge the reality of the betrayal....the depths of depravety perpetrated by one we trusted...that you can begin to heal.
As for vp *belly laughing* A poster calling himself H----- A---n. once wrote a letter to wd bragging about how a bunch of dirt farmers cheated all of us out of our money, took our wives and daughters and anything else that they wanted....laughed their a--es off all the way to the bank ...basically all we could do was whine....apperantly that is how they viewed us wth, ...suckers that they patted themselves on the back for being clever enough to *take*...Suprisingly, I agree with you ... vpw would probably still be laughing at us...no doubt the current bod does as well, they DID end up with all of the property and money that we spent decades of our lives earning and procuring for them.....laughing at us, gloating over their victory, ...that is not a good thing.
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Mark Sanguinetti
LiarLiar:
So you want to challenge us? I have a challenge for you also. Your idol Victor Wierwille not only was guilty of sin unbecoming of a household fellowship coordinator. He also spread doctrinal and practical error with his use of the Way Tree as a religious hierachical power structure. Victor's only reason for the Way Tree was so that he could extend religious and financial control on God's people involved with his ministry. If you are up for a challenge compare the teaching from the below link with Victor's use of the Way Tree as a religious power structure and then get back to me. This is a legitimate challenge. Now we can see if you are more than just a loud bark.
http://www.waychrist.com/Lordship_JC.htm
3rd request.
Liar Liar as long as you post here I am going to keep posting the above with the link. Victor Wierwille had not only practical error and sin in his life, but he also had a great deal of doctrinal error. The above is important to look at in order to understand what was behind Wierwille's biblically unsound and very self serving religious dogma.
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What The Hay
So what you are really saying is you have nothing at all in your life you are truly passionate about? Frankly I don't believe you; not for one iota of one second. Why? Because the Word of God says, "... for out of the abundace of the heart the mouth speaketh. "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things." Matthew 12:34-35.
Was VPW perfect? Cetainly not. Did things come out of his mouth that were evil? Yep, he slipped up frequently and many things did. But then Matthew is speaking of the "abundance" of the heart, not someone's inability to properly deal with these extremely frustrating circumstances in their life.
I was around long enough to realize there were many, many, many frustrating circumstances in the life of VPW and TWI, just like there are many, many, many of them for us. I would be the first to admit VPW never dealt with those circumstances properly, but then, many of us don't do any better of a job dealing with them ourselves. But does that make you evil just because you don't know how to properly deal with some very frustrating circumstances in your life?
It's not so much what happens to you in life that matters, but how you react and deal with certain situations and circumstances. That is what matters the most. I think it was Mike who said on one thread, "If you are judged by the code that you judge by, you’d be mortified. There’s only one who was sinless." I don't know any human being that is completly perfect, except one - and He left this earth thousands of years ago.
Just say something good or bad about VPW, LCM, TWI, etc. and sooner or later you're bound to rub someone's fur here the wrong way and get a reaction out of them. As far as I've been able to tell, it all depends what side of the fence you're on and what you are truly passionate about.
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rascal
That is rediculous What the hey, where do you get the idea that *no mission* means *no passion*? That is stupid...I have plenty of passion.....confronting idolotry, and exposing vpw for the wolf in sheeps clothing that he was.... happens to be something that I believe is important.....When one realises that we were viley betrayed by the one we trusted, the scales begin to fall from our eyes, and the plugs from our ears....we are free to hear God and begin new understanding of God and see his blessings once again....besides, it just plain ....es me off that we were fooled...that our trust and naievety...our quest for God were our down fall.
I see you folks who get upset when talk about vpw`s betrayal of his ministry, His God and the people seeking that God as having your eyes screwed tightly shut with your fingers jammed in your ears singing LA LA LA LA ...I can`t HEEEEEAAAAR you.
I guess that it is the difference between viewing him as a *good man who made mistakes* or a *wolf in sheeps clothing seeking whom he can devour*...Galations chapter 5 declares anyone who indulges in vpw`s behaviors to be a *man after the flesh*
rather than a *man after the spirit*
He isn`t who you guys thought he was...the ministry was not what we thought we were building....how you view him and his teachings directly affects our grasp and understanding of God.
I understand that you wish that we wouldn`t talk about the evil... it disturbs you ... I`ll tell ya, it`s just like when I run across a venomous snake .... I am not shy about warning the kiddos of it`s location...the neighbors...any possible guests of it`s location....it`s proclivity to bite when provoked or the disasterous results of such exposure....it is the same with vpw and his ministry wth...it is all in how you look at it whether you see healthy warning or evil speaking.
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rascal
What the hey, How we deal with *frustrating circumstances* defines who and what we are in this life.
In ANY of lifes circumstance...you have two choices...You can either suck it up and still act with decency, honor and integrety no matter how difficult situations are....or you can use it as an excuse to pander to your weakness....
My husband comes from a long line of destructive alcoholics....your reasoning that the destruction meted out by vpw was acceptable and forgivable because *lifes frustrations* drove him to this behavior....is the same cop out lies that my alcohoplic relatives used when they were too weak and selfish to give up the booze ...or the abusive selfish behavior that has destroyed three generations of multiple families.
See wth, a person of good character and intergrity would have STILL behaved in a decent manner ...no matter WHAT lifes frustrations were....
Gee, lessee ... the poor guy had millions at his disposal...no money woes...no health woes......had a devoted wife and family...had the prayers, love and support of tens of thousands of devoted bretheren....the best foods, the finest *toys* .....could write his own ticket....and the poor guy was STILL SOOOOO frustrated ...that he habitually indulged in booze .... the seduction of naieve young womnen...adultry ... viscious meanness....you think we should cut hiom some slack because he had some *frustrtations&?
Many of us have had it a hell of a lot worse and have not embraced evil.....
Who is evil wth? really...VPW indulged in the evil behavior.... embraced it with both arms...in the process hurt thousands...destroyed hundreds.....and yet you are mad at us for simply talking about it?
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oldiesman
Each person has their own perspective of who they think VPW was and wasn't, and what they thought twi was and was not.
Experiences vary.
God is the ultimate Judge.
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rascal
A person of character behaves with integrety....even when noone else is watching.
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What The Hay
That's also the reason your understanding of Galatians 5 is jaded. Galatians 5 talks about standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free and not being entagled again with the yoke of bondage. But there's always someone willing to raise the dead VPW and his sins. Sounds like someone becoming entagled with the yoke of bondage again, and the Word of God says we're not supposed to be entagled with it.
If we are therefore called to liberty, our mission is not one of using our liberty to serve the flesh, (there's no better way of doing it than bringing up the past, recalling your sins or someone elses for that matter) but by love serving one another. (v13) Anything other than that is someone on a mission to cause trouble; and the previous verse says, "I would they were even cut off which trouble you." (v12)
So have I troubled you rascal or anybody else for that matter? Likely I have if you're someone who believes VPW is the savior of mankind or something like that, as a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump, but that persuasion cometh not of him [Jesus Christ] that calleth you.
P.S. What makes you think I was excusing VPW, especially when I also stated:
Don't take what I said out of context.Link to comment
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Tom Strange
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GarthP2000
What the Hay,
and so on and so forth, ad nauseum.Nope chief! The reason why you don't take Rascal's or anybody else's word that criticizes VPW and shows him to be the song-and-dance con man and abuser that he really is, is because you have so-o-o much of your integrity (such that it is) and your commitment wrapped up in VPW's credibility as the Teacher of the Word of God such as it hasn't been taught since the first century, et al. You've been like this l-o-n-g before now.
You have this immense opposition to admitting that VPW was/became a fraud. A lot of us did, either when we were in TWI, or even after we left. And no Virginia, I don't buy the 'mind control' half-baked diagnosis either, but then again, I don't have to. ... All this 'VPW apologetics' is based on blind faith in a man/organization/whatever. The kind of faith where you dedicate yourself to believe in [fill in the blank], and remain loyal to it, even to the expense of uncomfortable facts and truths. And when you are at the level that folks like you, Smikeol, Oldies to some degree, and others are, its a BIG piece of crow to munch on to admit that "Ok, so I believed in something that didn't work out like I thought it was. I made a mistake".
Did you see that post made by Eagle (called 'Christian Heritage Online') about his site going over what he learned at TWI? Did you see the honesty that he showed in admitting that he now sees VPW as not being the individual that he originally thought? **That took guts! Real, manly, mature, guts!!**
You going to be like that regarding this kind of honesty? Or are you going to be, using the recent words of Ah-nold the Governator, ... 'a girlie-man'?
(This was not meant to imply that women don't have guts/courage due to their sex. I'm just using terms that I think WTH can identify with.
;)-->)
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oldiesman
Not necessarily. What you call "VPW apologetics" may also be defined as a whole range of perspectives differing from yours.
Experiences vary.
God is the ultimate Judge.
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GarthP2000
Oldies,
Of course they differ, and that is neither here nor there. What is the deciding point is the validity or lack thereof of the points that differ one way or another.
So that pretty much precludes any judgement/discernment that we are capable of making about what the man did? What he was? .... Ahhhh, nope! Not in this life!
And besides, I am wary of statements like 'God will judge' that are made in a dodge-the-issue manner. ... Oh, and how many people do you 'judge' due to them being 'off the Word', especially when it comes to your pet doctrines, like the Trinity, the dead being alive now, etc., based on what you learned in PFAL, hmmmm?
So spare me.
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oldiesman
Experiences vary. Your perspective is different from mine. What I mean by God being the ultimate Judge is He knows all, sees all, and has perfect perspective, whereas we don't. Doesn't mean you can't make a judgment, just don't expect me to swallow everything you think is true, and vice versa. We each have our own opinions.
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GarthP2000
All of which have no bearing on *that which actually happened*.
Caio.
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rascal
Um what the hey, you are seeing *missions* where none exist......kind of like those conspiracy folks....sorry, you are off base here.
I can however, be damn good and mad about betrayal of the magnatude that vpw perpetrated.......and it is possible to get really cheesed when someone wants to down play enormity of the damage...or wants to EXCUSE vileness of that betrayal....or call my friends and I liars by claiming that the betrayal never occured....
To voice the deepest disgust for a man whom perpetrated such fraud in God`s name.....and to vehemently disagree with those who would have us believe that he was a *good* guy ...that is not the definition of a *mission* nor is it evil....
I don`t understand why anything you have said so far would make me uncomfortable....
I repeat...
A person of character acts with integrity when NOONE is watching.....vpw should have conducted himself with unimpeachable morals and manifested a sterling character if...IF he wanted to be a representative of God and the scriptures....if he wanted to fullfill his lusts at others expense......use people... destroy the lives that turned to him for the answeres he claimed to have f....then he by God should have chosen another life`s work, rather than giving God and christianity a huge black eye.
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oldiesman
He led thousands to the Lord Jesus Christ, sins and all. Wow!
Rascal, you don't (or refuse to) see what good he actually did. Or, you just simply dismiss it, don't give it any consideration at all, but instead focus entirely on his evil works.
I have a different perspective than you...
There's enough goodies in PFAL, and were enough goodies in twi-1, for me to say unequivocally that I'm glad VPW chose Christianity as a vocation. ...
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Mark Sanguinetti
Victor may have led thousands to Jesus Christ, but then Victor replaced looking to Jesus with looking to his organization and religious hierarchy faster than most of us could blink one eye.
http://www.waychrist.com/Lordship_JC.htm
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rascal
I think that God worked in SPITE of vpw oldies...suuuure he led folks to jesus....then he used the respect gained tthe trust garnered to lower defenses and lure folks into the snare.
Sounds like a con to me....sounds like God and the bible were the bait used to lure us in and then lower our natural wariness......sure the bait had to be reeeeally appealing to lure us in and lower our wariness...for us to ignore the warning bells...
Gee whiz...He can`t be all bad can he? He taught me the bible...Guess what oldies....I heard one of Jim Jones followers on tv once, voice the exact same thing....*but he led me to Jesus*...*he taught the bible* I suppose you guys are willing to make the same argument and excuses for ole Jimbo as vp?
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sky4it
Mark:
Agreed.
:)-->
I am new to this board. but i posted my story and beliefs on what i beleive were serious doctrinal errors under a new topic, My story and beliefs about the Lord and Way International. Hope you guys enjoy.
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