--> See that last quote? THAT is your statement that I responded to. And the quotes that I gave that were made by other people were used as illustrations in response to what you said about you not seeing anyone there making excuses for LLPOF.
Garth, as you probably saw, I started by quoting back your two posts. Then I decided, who cares?
It always annoys me when people quote others and don't say who they're quoting. Then, when it looks like they're quoting me when they're not, it's even more annoying.
May I call you Liarliarpantsonfirey? Thanks… Just kidding… not about the “thanks” part, but …
Hey I think it’s interesting how many things you and I agree on… and what’s even more interesting are the much fewer things we disagree on. Actually our disagreements might more lie in the HOW category, rather than in the content category.
I think socks was hitting on some of it it pretty accurately. Paraphrasing that part of his post I’d put it thusly: you have to EARN great respect before you can command it.
Now Llpofy, it’s no coincidence that Dr’s very last teaching hits on this very point, that respect must be earned and cannot be demanded. These are some of Dr’s dying last words (exact tape transcript) to you and me:
“See, every twig coordinator ought to know what's happening in his
twig, among his people. He ought to know his people very well so he
can minister to them. You can't help somebody if you don't know
there's a need there. So a twig coordinator really has to get close
to his people -- to know. And people are usually hesitant to really
tell ya what they need until -- you have earned their respect.
“And you earn people's respect by serving them the Word of God
and loving them-- and then learning to keep your mouth shut. You
just -- you just never tell anything; you just help people.”
It’s no coincidence that this very section of Dr’s last teaching was botched in the editing of its Way Magazine version. The entire first paragraph that I quoted above was actually lost, so the magazine article reads very poorly where Dr elucidates this vital principle. Most of the top leadership completely lost sight of this principle in such a big way it dwarfs the magazine typo. You lost sight of this principle too (it seems to me) when you barged in here like you did.
Speaking of accuracy, socks also hit on another pertinent point in his post: that of typing typos. (Thanks socks, for that corroboration of Dr’s push for accuracy in the print product of TWI back then. I too saw him operate that way in staff meetings and posted it here.)
So Llpofy, I’d suggest at least a few proof readings with a spell checker to back you up. Please e-mail or PT me. I’d like to discuss these things backstage with you a bit more.
You can find thorough documentation of the tape and magazine versions of Dr’s final instructions to us in this thread: “Dr's Last Teaching - LOST for 17 Years!” which is posted at:
When I was in Bible Collage back in the 70's, the president and founder of that collage invited Madalyn Murray O'Hara (Atheist) to debate on the existence of God. The day and time was sceduled and the debate was on.
Well, they spared back and forth for a good hour or so and that was it.
In my opinion the only resolve was that egos got inflated on both sides. She boosted about logical evidence, facts here and there and how "religion or the belief in a God",was a man made belief system. She made many good points.
On the other hand for those that belived in the Bible, thought that her opponet was well spoken and that he presented a good case for Christianity. They both walked away with a hug and a "we'll see" smile.
Since that time I'v realize that debate is good. That both sides has the oppertunity to present the facts to an audiance that would be willing to listen.
Here at GS we have lived both sides of the debate one way or another. So we all know how the debate will end. Hopfully better informed. But honestly to debate VPW and TWI is pretty futtle on this forum. What is the point?
When I made the observation of inflated egos, the minister struted aroung like a peacock in full bloom, impressed with himself. Making remarkes about an after meeting that took place with Madelyn. Words were exchanged in private. He preceeded to tell us what was said, I do not know if it was the truth but we where at his feet believing it as so. What was said was insignifacant but his display of arrogance was not.
It's obivous that LLPOF has sparked some anger. I don't know if he lacks wisdom in his communication skills or what, but none the less he has provoked a few. And there has been a responce in kind. I like what Shaz has said. What is realistic and what is not. So I think the debate that LLPOF has thrown out to us good folks is pointless. So my question is why do we, you or me get so riled when somone comes along with insults and a different way of thinking? For me I just consider the source.
For that debate back in the 70's, it taught me to consider the source. Do I like being called a liar...NO, but in all things I concider the source. The only source that has any weight at all is my higher power.
Imbus, I posted for only one reason--for the people who are still "in"--whether mentally or physically who still give any credence to people like Liar.
llpof came to this thread and questioned the motives of the posters about what they write.
In response posters question llpof motives for what he writes.
As far as accusations and proof, vpw was never arrested or sued for the alleged crimes of sexual abuse etc. no proof can be had other than the testimony of some that claim to be victims.
Yet the testimony of a positive experience is dismissed as just what a person claims as truth of their experience while involved with twi therefore invalid.
is this a double standard ? safety in numbers ? who can throw a fit loud and long enough ? A ....ing contest on who is right or wrong or just the same thing by two seperate groups of thought?
Nope mj, none of the above....it is people finally being able to tell what happened to them in twi and being called (yet again) liars...and because SOME would rather slander a persons character, maligne them to the point that they don`t appear believable....than accept that the system that they built their beliefs on is flawed.
When one comes in and says...that couldn`t have happened because *I* had a good time in twi...or *If that did happen it was ok because I got some good out of twi*....no matter what the *intentions* of that poster are...they are attempting to sweep the evil out of sight so that we once again, we can all go on pretending that everything was always godly and cool in way world....we were the ones that were flawed.
Damn right I wont sit back and watch someone attempt to discredit us for the sole purpose of perpetuating a flawed belief ...
I also have noticed that liar hasn`t had the courage to come back and read what we wrote or even engage us in a dialog...I can only imagine how *fair* that he would be if anyone were silly enough to take him up on his stupid offer....he was just in a ....ing contest...
I think when people see what vp's practical doctrine **REALLY** was, (i.e. how he lived his life), then they will be more able to see that his spiritual doctrine might not be so perfect, either.
There is verse after verse about the baby in the womb. I'm not sure how we were too blinded to have missed those. Oh, yes, I do. It was because we trusted him and what he taught because we believed he was the Man of God and spoke for God. Remember?
quote: unless this .... person has 24-hour surveillance tapes of every single day of VPW's life, there's absolutely no way he can refute the allegations ...
Even if they had such a thing, what qualifies them to be the judge of VPW? But then again, what qualifies you?
If I had a 24-hour tape of every single day of your life, would that qualify me to be the judge of your life - moreover, would you be willing to trust my judgement based on what I saw on such a tape? Are ALL the judges sane? I think not. 1 Corinthians 4:3-5.
I agree word wolf, anybody watching surveilance video of my life, would not find anything criminal or worthey of prison time....
S` matter of fact, the things in my life that I would be the most ashamed of folks reviewing, would be some of the things that I did in twi ...not because I wanted to, not because it was the moral thing to do....but because twi leaders declared that this was what GOD required of me.
What the hey, I think that if you actually DID viewed a video of vpw during the course of his life, you would probably be sickened to the point that it would dispel any respect you held for him, or confidence in his *revelations*
I`d have to question the moral fiber of anyone who wasn`t physically sickened by the depths of vpw`s betrayal for simple fullfillment of his base lusts. ....using God as his cover and camoflage.
As far as judging him, heck no, but if you read galations chapt 5, it tells you exactly what to do with fellows that do the things vp routinely perpetrated on those who naievely trusted him to teach them about God.... a free pass wasn`t mentioned.
quote: Maybe not, but there's nothing I've ever done that would land me in jail if the cops ever got a tape of it.....
This "well, nobody's perfect, so let's never
say wrongdoing is wrong" is too selective.
Wordwolf,
Your sins may not be as bad as vp's, but i bet you wouldn't be that excited about a website dedicated to unrelenting exposure of every unflattering and sinful area of your life, would you? And if that would occur, would that be ok, for any imperfect man to be a judge of another inperfect man's sins, 24/7? Maybe you wouldn't object to that, after all, wrongdoing is wrong, isn't it? So let's shout it from the rooftops.
I think that might be a point that What The Hay was trying to make. God is the ultimate Judge, not man; even if one thinks they know so much about another man's sinful life.
Hey, if vpw hadn`t been such an amoral creep... hadn`t used people and betrayed their trust...there wouldn`t BE a web sight where there was *unrelenting exposure of every unflattering and sinful area of his life*....to bad so sad, it`s the price you pay when one does great harm to people...they generally tend to get ....ed off.
Heres a thought, attempt to live your life in a moral upright manner...and it won`t ever matter if people ever DO attempt to examine it minutely 24/7!
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Linda Z
You're missing my point, Garth. Whatever.
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GarthP2000
Linda,
Clear as mud now?
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Linda Z
Garth, as you probably saw, I started by quoting back your two posts. Then I decided, who cares?
It always annoys me when people quote others and don't say who they're quoting. Then, when it looks like they're quoting me when they're not, it's even more annoying.
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Don'tFenceMeIn
Actually, Sir Guessalot, it cost me something to post that. And, it wasn't a kneejerk reaction. I'm into the Life-machine, myself.
Tootles,
Fence
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sirguessalot
Again, I'm sorry.
Sometimes my timing sucks.
peace
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Mike
Sirtoddalot,
Howdy. Had any good seven second delays lately? We should get Oakspear out to San Diego for beer some night.
Mind if I chime in here? I've been following this very wierd thread some, and waited to say my part.
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Mike
Liarliarpantsonfire,
May I call you Liarliarpantsonfirey? Thanks… Just kidding… not about the “thanks” part, but …
Hey I think it’s interesting how many things you and I agree on… and what’s even more interesting are the much fewer things we disagree on. Actually our disagreements might more lie in the HOW category, rather than in the content category.
I think socks was hitting on some of it it pretty accurately. Paraphrasing that part of his post I’d put it thusly: you have to EARN great respect before you can command it.
Now Llpofy, it’s no coincidence that Dr’s very last teaching hits on this very point, that respect must be earned and cannot be demanded. These are some of Dr’s dying last words (exact tape transcript) to you and me:
“See, every twig coordinator ought to know what's happening in his
twig, among his people. He ought to know his people very well so he
can minister to them. You can't help somebody if you don't know
there's a need there. So a twig coordinator really has to get close
to his people -- to know. And people are usually hesitant to really
tell ya what they need until -- you have earned their respect.
“And you earn people's respect by serving them the Word of God
and loving them-- and then learning to keep your mouth shut. You
just -- you just never tell anything; you just help people.”
It’s no coincidence that this very section of Dr’s last teaching was botched in the editing of its Way Magazine version. The entire first paragraph that I quoted above was actually lost, so the magazine article reads very poorly where Dr elucidates this vital principle. Most of the top leadership completely lost sight of this principle in such a big way it dwarfs the magazine typo. You lost sight of this principle too (it seems to me) when you barged in here like you did.
Speaking of accuracy, socks also hit on another pertinent point in his post: that of typing typos. (Thanks socks, for that corroboration of Dr’s push for accuracy in the print product of TWI back then. I too saw him operate that way in staff meetings and posted it here.)
So Llpofy, I’d suggest at least a few proof readings with a spell checker to back you up. Please e-mail or PT me. I’d like to discuss these things backstage with you a bit more.
You can find thorough documentation of the tape and magazine versions of Dr’s final instructions to us in this thread: “Dr's Last Teaching - LOST for 17 Years!” which is posted at:
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a=tpc...=3516027781&p=1
Magazine version is on page 30 about half way down, and the tape transcript is on page 1 a few posts down the page.
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excathedra
dear no-fencie i am truly sorrowful
love,
ex
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Mike
Oops! Maybe I didn't wait long enough to post my post.
I haven't read this thread close enough to see that a sub-drama was still going on.
I think sirguessalot was more waxing poetic, and just didn't cover all the angles.
...and I wonder if LLPOF is still reading this.
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TheManOfa Thousand ScreenNames
To mark out a landing spot for the MEDEVAC helicopter.
:D-->
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imbus
When I was in Bible Collage back in the 70's, the president and founder of that collage invited Madalyn Murray O'Hara (Atheist) to debate on the existence of God. The day and time was sceduled and the debate was on.
Well, they spared back and forth for a good hour or so and that was it.
In my opinion the only resolve was that egos got inflated on both sides. She boosted about logical evidence, facts here and there and how "religion or the belief in a God",was a man made belief system. She made many good points.
On the other hand for those that belived in the Bible, thought that her opponet was well spoken and that he presented a good case for Christianity. They both walked away with a hug and a "we'll see" smile.
Since that time I'v realize that debate is good. That both sides has the oppertunity to present the facts to an audiance that would be willing to listen.
Here at GS we have lived both sides of the debate one way or another. So we all know how the debate will end. Hopfully better informed. But honestly to debate VPW and TWI is pretty futtle on this forum. What is the point?
When I made the observation of inflated egos, the minister struted aroung like a peacock in full bloom, impressed with himself. Making remarkes about an after meeting that took place with Madelyn. Words were exchanged in private. He preceeded to tell us what was said, I do not know if it was the truth but we where at his feet believing it as so. What was said was insignifacant but his display of arrogance was not.
It's obivous that LLPOF has sparked some anger. I don't know if he lacks wisdom in his communication skills or what, but none the less he has provoked a few. And there has been a responce in kind. I like what Shaz has said. What is realistic and what is not. So I think the debate that LLPOF has thrown out to us good folks is pointless. So my question is why do we, you or me get so riled when somone comes along with insults and a different way of thinking? For me I just consider the source.
For that debate back in the 70's, it taught me to consider the source. Do I like being called a liar...NO, but in all things I concider the source. The only source that has any weight at all is my higher power.
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Don'tFenceMeIn
Imbus, I posted for only one reason--for the people who are still "in"--whether mentally or physically who still give any credence to people like Liar.
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Don'tFenceMeIn
Tom Strange,
Wonderful post and I have a feeling that you are also a wonderful human being.
I love reading anything you write.
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mj412
Is it ironic that?
llpof came to this thread and questioned the motives of the posters about what they write.
In response posters question llpof motives for what he writes.
As far as accusations and proof, vpw was never arrested or sued for the alleged crimes of sexual abuse etc. no proof can be had other than the testimony of some that claim to be victims.
Yet the testimony of a positive experience is dismissed as just what a person claims as truth of their experience while involved with twi therefore invalid.
is this a double standard ? safety in numbers ? who can throw a fit loud and long enough ? A ....ing contest on who is right or wrong or just the same thing by two seperate groups of thought?
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A la prochaine
Imbus,
Well said.
"Do I like being called a liar...NO, but in all things I concider the source. The only source that has any weight at all is my higher power."
Thank you for such a well thought out post.
As well, Socks.
A delight to read.
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rascal
Nope mj, none of the above....it is people finally being able to tell what happened to them in twi and being called (yet again) liars...and because SOME would rather slander a persons character, maligne them to the point that they don`t appear believable....than accept that the system that they built their beliefs on is flawed.
When one comes in and says...that couldn`t have happened because *I* had a good time in twi...or *If that did happen it was ok because I got some good out of twi*....no matter what the *intentions* of that poster are...they are attempting to sweep the evil out of sight so that we once again, we can all go on pretending that everything was always godly and cool in way world....we were the ones that were flawed.
Damn right I wont sit back and watch someone attempt to discredit us for the sole purpose of perpetuating a flawed belief ...
I also have noticed that liar hasn`t had the courage to come back and read what we wrote or even engage us in a dialog...I can only imagine how *fair* that he would be if anyone were silly enough to take him up on his stupid offer....he was just in a ....ing contest...
.
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Don'tFenceMeIn
Right, Rascal.
I think when people see what vp's practical doctrine **REALLY** was, (i.e. how he lived his life), then they will be more able to see that his spiritual doctrine might not be so perfect, either.
There is verse after verse about the baby in the womb. I'm not sure how we were too blinded to have missed those. Oh, yes, I do. It was because we trusted him and what he taught because we believed he was the Man of God and spoke for God. Remember?
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What The Hay
Even if they had such a thing, what qualifies them to be the judge of VPW? But then again, what qualifies you?
If I had a 24-hour tape of every single day of your life, would that qualify me to be the judge of your life - moreover, would you be willing to trust my judgement based on what I saw on such a tape? Are ALL the judges sane? I think not. 1 Corinthians 4:3-5.
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WordWolf
Maybe not, but there's nothing I've ever done
that would land me in jail if the cops ever got
a tape of it.....
This "well, nobody's perfect, so let's never
say wrongdoing is wrong" is too selective.
Let's take it to its logical conclusion:
empty all the jails and prisons.
After all, who are we to cast asperstions on
someone for stabbing someone for their
sneakers? Or for killing and eating them?
Maybe that was right for THEM, did you ever
think that? Why aren't they entitled to set
their own standards?
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rascal
I agree word wolf, anybody watching surveilance video of my life, would not find anything criminal or worthey of prison time....
S` matter of fact, the things in my life that I would be the most ashamed of folks reviewing, would be some of the things that I did in twi ...not because I wanted to, not because it was the moral thing to do....but because twi leaders declared that this was what GOD required of me.
What the hey, I think that if you actually DID viewed a video of vpw during the course of his life, you would probably be sickened to the point that it would dispel any respect you held for him, or confidence in his *revelations*
I`d have to question the moral fiber of anyone who wasn`t physically sickened by the depths of vpw`s betrayal for simple fullfillment of his base lusts. ....using God as his cover and camoflage.
As far as judging him, heck no, but if you read galations chapt 5, it tells you exactly what to do with fellows that do the things vp routinely perpetrated on those who naievely trusted him to teach them about God.... a free pass wasn`t mentioned.
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alfakat
What the hay--way to obfuscate!!!
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GarthP2000
Alfakat,
Apparently illustrating that goosestepping still hasn't gone out of style. For some folks at least.
"Dasssss r-i-g-h-t, keeds!"
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oldiesman
Wordwolf,
Your sins may not be as bad as vp's, but i bet you wouldn't be that excited about a website dedicated to unrelenting exposure of every unflattering and sinful area of your life, would you? And if that would occur, would that be ok, for any imperfect man to be a judge of another inperfect man's sins, 24/7? Maybe you wouldn't object to that, after all, wrongdoing is wrong, isn't it? So let's shout it from the rooftops.
I think that might be a point that What The Hay was trying to make. God is the ultimate Judge, not man; even if one thinks they know so much about another man's sinful life.
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rascal
Hey, if vpw hadn`t been such an amoral creep... hadn`t used people and betrayed their trust...there wouldn`t BE a web sight where there was *unrelenting exposure of every unflattering and sinful area of his life*....to bad so sad, it`s the price you pay when one does great harm to people...they generally tend to get ....ed off.
Heres a thought, attempt to live your life in a moral upright manner...and it won`t ever matter if people ever DO attempt to examine it minutely 24/7!
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