quote:A Quick Disclaimer: Lest you get the wrong idea (as some have), perhaps we should state most emphatically that we do not hate CES or its leaders. On the contrary, we love them as brothers (and sisters) in Christ.
quote: It's true, they [the principals of CES-Steve] think they're different from TWI because they can point to a few doctrinal differences. But their basic attitude, that they can make the Word fit their theology by manipulating interpretations, is identical to TWI's.
Put the clause back into its context. TWI may have talked about recovering the integrity of God's Word, but in practice, Wierwille produced twisted interpretations that allowed him to teach whatever he wanted. I personally believe he did it knowingly, to gain power and money for satisfying his personal lusts.
You ask, "How many different Christian denominations are there in the U.S., and how many of them may be accused of engaging in this type of activity, if one wishes to engage in that type of accusation? Most, if not all, I presume.
There are other wolf-in-sheeps'-clothing organizations besides the Way and some of its off-shoots. But if you presume that most, if not all, Christian denominations in the U.S. engage in that type of activity, I suggest you widen the circle of your Christian fellowship.
The fellowship the faculty members have at the interdenominational academy where I teach is just as sweet as the fellowship I experienced at any TWI event, MORE sweet than in most twigs. We aren't trying to put a phoney class together. We're trying to enable young Christians to function in the real world.
You wrote, "I prefer to look on CES' doctrinal teachings as beliefs that you or I may not concur with; rather than they must have some sinister evil selfish motive behind it...
I would PREFER to think that way, too, except I had a personal hand in the evolution of CES doctrine.
I was a contributor to, and on the editorial staff of "Dialogue" magazine. They used to send me their book manuscripts to comment on before publication. I taught at one of CES' Chicago weekends, and on one of their bi-monthly tapes. I used to do some of their scripture indexes. I got to hear JAL's thinking evolve in the weekly teaching at his home fellowship.
CES published "22 Principles of Biblical Interpretation". These principles were regurgitations of things that had been taught in PFAL. I demonstrated from Scripture that three of the principles contradict each other. They stopped their ears.
They have used their ultradispensationalist interpretations to say that the revelation in Romans is inferior to the revelation in Ephesians, when Paul says the same thing in both Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
They say that prophets who make mistakes are NOT speaking presumptuously.
They say that God doesn't have foreknowledge, without realizing that either makes the universe deterministic with no free will at all, or the fulfillments of the Bible's prophecies are flukes. All to shore up their contention "Don't Blame God!". They reduce God to the level of a man, a sappy man at that. One friend said they make God look like the Pillsbury Doughboy. You can poke Him in the gut all you want to, the only thing He will do is giggle. They make God IRRESPONSIBLE.
They call Jesus mistaken. They say JESUS was WRONG, when the things He said don't square with THEIR theology.
Do they have "some sinister selfish motive behind it"?
I don't think so. They say eat the fish and throw away the bones. I just don't think they can actually tell the difference between the fish and the bones, because they STILL HAVEN'T come to grips with the truth that TWI is and was a cult.
I just spent some time looking over their web site, something I haven't done in a whale. I see they are now starting up a WOW Ambassador program. Since they don't acknowledge that TWI was a cult, they are unconsciously replicating it. THEY don't think they are a cult, but they are.
quote:... They say eat the fish and throw away the bones. ... because they STILL HAVEN'T come to grips with the truth that TWI is and was a cult.
Steve, this is probably one reason why I like them. They acknowledge that TWI was a genuine ministry at one time. They take the goodies from twi, and drop the errors. (or at least have tried, or made some attempts, at some points.) It appears to be an improvement to me, at least an improvement of what exists in twi today. Ok, so its probable they aren't correct on some doctrines. And who among us is 100% correct on all the doctrines?
I think, as far as the WOW-type program is concerned, they are well aware of what they're doing (ie, replicating TWI).
You're right, Raf, they ARE aware they are replicating TWI. What they are unconscious of is the truth that they are replicating a CULT. They don't even consider it. TWI was too much of their lifestyle. They couldn't have it anymore. They are replicating it, fish AND bones.
Those aren't their words. They are my summary of their words. I think it's important, if anyone is taking this discussion seriously, to see what they're saying in their words. If you think I'm misrepresenting them, call me on it.
Well...Anybody who goes to a church is associating themselves with a "distinct group"...that distinction is generally specified in a "Statement of beliefs" document. Every Christian organization that I have ever seen has their own distinct beliefs...otherwise, what are they doing, calling themselves a church? The fact that CES has embraced a good portion of twi's old doctrine is not a surprise, nor should it be. If you like the teachings of EW Bullinger and all the other writers that Wierwille stole from, you will probably like CES also. Of course they have added a few twists of their own to the doctrine, tweak it here, turn it there...but that also is to be expected.
The real question that should be asked is, how does this "ministry" actually work? How do the "leaders" interact with the followers? Is there any manipulation, elitism, abuse, sex, financial pressures placed upon followers, etc. etc. etc???
I have gone to "church" often enough to know there is a MASSIVE difference between the way a "normal" church operates and interacts with their church members and the way that twi operated and interacted with their followers. Twi wasn't just looking for you to come to church on Sunday and tithe, they wanted your ENTIRE LIFE! Time, allegience, money, etc...twi bled people dry! Class after class, meeting after meeting, seminar after seminar...go WOW, go corps, get ordained, wear the right nametag, be a limb coordiantor, be a trunk coordinator...climb the waytree, be all that you can be! Now, is CES more like this, or are they more like going to a "normal" church? It's your life... ;)-->
Yes Tom that is the way it went, Ask Ralph D. if you do not believe me he went to Matindale and actualy questioned him why as they went to the same "twig".. John S. and walter both took a hit at that time. Their research took time and money ( I think it was about two years for that paper ask John for the time line) and it was on twi bank account martindale and walter squashed it. heads roll.
Im sorry but so many think these groups just fall from heaven and happen by some miricle of God like the feel good sing along buy our stuff shows you pay to go to. no it is somone thinking planning and I would say coniving. the fact two ex wifes and five children need to be fed and happy and paid for along with the new wifes and girlfriends it can get expensive. some body needs to plan and plan they do and their corporate model knows how to make money and loads of it. what do ya think ? that these uneducated hill billies from some cubic hole on an OHIO farm know how to do it any other way?
to their benefit now both John and Mark can pay for the tuition for an actual college education as well as their children off your pay check. Im sure they are thankful quite a move up for a window washer and a office gopher boy for VPW> yes who says a cult doesnt have a ladder of success ? I know twi never offered that as a perk of the job hahahaha . so now they will have real credits other than being in a cult for most of their life . yeah they love ya baby. do you ever look at how they live? they go to school vacation together for weeks at a time, travel when they want . Maybe the fact I have seen so many families struggle for decades after the toll of paying the way who are older and uneducated without pension homes etc. People who never had a chance to even have families cause they worked so hard for this kind of game it kind of bites my *** to listen to Mark tell us all about his new class and the paper he writes. Hey how many while in the way could pay for their kids to go to college work when you felt like it and vacationed in the best spots etc. etc? oh that is right they are special they are Gods leaders . I cant stand this anymore! if they happen to throw you a 4 dollar tape filled with an hour of their up coming events and advertising lucky you I know you feel loved and special . .
Wordwolf: Still wondering about my question in the previous post.
I do concur with your thinking on the MOGFOT thing, that certainly would be "Diode # 4" in which seemed to make Frankenstien thrive best.
Frankenstien still can wobble around a lot and do some serious damage just with those three diodes hooked up tho. I dont remember much about mogfot in my days there.
Most of my recollection on EW Bullinger is that he really didnt "teach" anything. He had a couple books, but the companion bible is just a reference thing, that specializes in outlines and appendixes, pretty stale stuff. He really wasnt a whole lot different than reading a youngs or strongs concordance. In that regard, it really isnt bad stuff.
The difficulty is, a lot of folks one would think, could never enjoy any of that on there own again. It made stuff from him and others seem evil, including the Bible.
I am able to recognize knowledge and academics from self worship and alligence to a man or woman in an organization clearly sky4.
I think that was a little insulting to those who simply trusted people to be honest and trusted them to care about them as christians should .
the accusation of "thinking evil" is flying around Im certain about my attitude towards CES. Let me say the other side of that is believing that everyone who spews out bible verses actualy lives and does the application with an honest and pure heart with Love towards the Lord Jesus Christ and His body.
I think that is what CES stole from people the most. WE are a people created to love one another to consel one another and to minister to one another what CES did was steal that away from Christ as the leader of Gods people and make their own deal more important .
I couldnt agree more with the relevance of an honest and pure heart analogy part of your topic. :)--> As I said on another thread, it really never was what TWI had that really frightened me, but what I thought they never wanted.
With relation to Ministries and such, I certainly think that term is often used inapprobrately. Noah ministered with a hammer and a nail in the sight of everyone.
There is something about our Lord that often gets missed. He is so low, in fact made a little lower than the angels. I think he is that way because he accessible to all of us. This trait so makes me love him.
I agree with your assertations that ministers who are inaccessible are really just tyrants for themselves. The ministry can and does become the focal point, instead of the individual. I think that means MJ, that the work you and I and other unrecognized peons are doing for others , is what the Lord really wants.
I have known Jesus since I was a vey young child , honestly spoke to Him and prayed and read the bible and felt His companionship.
Yet I have no more or less of a relationship than the child today who is walking a country path looking at the wild flowers and asking God how He made them.
or the man or woman who has lived a life of ruin and decay with drugs or alcohol and asked for forgivness and recieved it from a healthy loving Lord.
Jesus Christ Loved us enough to die for us , for a reason and that was so each of us can have a relationship with the one and only God for all eternity with HIM.
I will always owe God always. Most christians are nice and good honest people the bible says to live peaceably amoung ALL MEN.
Those who have aligned themselves with these groups are filling a need in their life to be sure , my entire point in all this is the fact they will never find it in these groups but the love and peace they desire is available in a world created for HIS people.
the world is a good place Jesus makes it so and every day is exciting knowing a better place is yet to come where will all be free of the discord and strife and games people play.
I go out Im so happy I see the love of God in so many , doing what we do to make a difference for everyone , not debating doctrine or who claiming who is right or wrong or more important or not . life is so easy and without trouble when you can break free of the prisons these leadrs make for your life.
God does need us to do anything but love Him with our whole heart. but your group will sell you differently . you have been bought people with the price of His only sinless child. please remember that.
I concur with Tom Strange, but I know for a fact that John S. took it upon himself to write the paper on adultery, and when he was asked to leave the subject alone, he proceeded anyway. TWI did not initially ask him to do the research. That would have been foolish of them, for they knew what John S. was to find.
So, when he started it, they tried to shut him down, but he proceeded anyway, and he was subsequently fired for it.
same difference it was done on the twi payroll and they disagreed on it he sent the paper to outside folks when he feeling mighty threatened by the way over the fact they did not want it released and he did.
He was extremely intimidated by twi at the time not because he wrote the paper but he was threatened to not share the information he had with anyone and did anyways. he was afraid for his life and wanted the information to get out that so he sent it to those no longer in. and shortly after joined up with John LYNN. he is not a hero either he wrote a paper onsex and the bible wowo Im impressed and was afriad of the leaders that paid him to do it and behind their back sent it out to those he wanted to. (Martha Steward is going to Jail for much less sly and sneaky business practice) If he saved your life from the division and split up of a cult and you worship him and his new found one for it go ahead . he can also be defined as a back stabing friend and an illegal employee using any means to get an edge in the war about to begin between the two sides of the same pile of **** with money to be had. It was policy to not allow research material to go outside the dept unless approved. John Lynn was already started his rampage, DR. was dead and had stayed dead lol and people were looking for a new man to be made king of the cult.
I think it really damages your argument against these men to believe that what JS did (research what the Bible said about adultery and make sure people got to see it) is worse than what Martha Stewart did (insider trading and obstruction of justice). I'm not saying Martha Stewart deserves to go to jail, but she did do something illegal. JS did... what, exactly? Disobey ungodly leadership? He writes a paper on adultery (in his capacity as a researcher in a Biblical research ministry), gets threatened for it, resists the threats...
it was company policy to not allow the release of any research unless approved . The paper he wrote was not approved of he worked for the company and gave it to those he knew would keep it for him that were outside of twi and they were wrong for firing him?
he did what he had to do fine and dandy but to be shocked and shame a company will fire a person for breaking a MAJOR policy .
God speaks about being an honest employee and person as well and because it was twi it is excused as harmless and ok? cant you see they played the victim card in this as well? if he had worked for any other company and released inside work and information no one would bat an eye on the fact he was let go . but I think it is deeper and about the fact they did not want to work for LCM fine again then quit and call it a day wash your hands of a bad job no not these guys they had enough back and wnated the money roll and the people to go with them so they made it happen. Am I taking sides? TWI was a company RAF. with millions of dollars if not billions , they had policy and rules for the dept. as anyone who worked there will tell you and because these two knew what they were doing to start their own cult twi was wrong to stand up for itself? I do not think so.
they are excused for their behaviours and wrongs and lies and sneaky ways because they had the mouth to save everyone who was being kicked out and leaving after vpw death? did they save you?
plenty will claim they did .
do not make it more than it is JohnS was paid to write a paper for twi research done at twi belongs to twi not to the individual who wrote it they didnt want it released ( oh now everyone is shocked ???) it was the companys right to not release research without approval and John S., released it anyways and got fired. big deal whoo wee . John S broke company policy knew he was going to be fired for it counted on a year of unemplyment and joined up with John Lynn to start CES where their work would be their own . at least just call a spade a spade.
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excathedra
what's the link to the CES critics forum or whatever it is ?
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Raf
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oldiesman
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
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Steve Lortz
Context, oldiesman, context!
Put the clause back into its context. TWI may have talked about recovering the integrity of God's Word, but in practice, Wierwille produced twisted interpretations that allowed him to teach whatever he wanted. I personally believe he did it knowingly, to gain power and money for satisfying his personal lusts.
You ask, "How many different Christian denominations are there in the U.S., and how many of them may be accused of engaging in this type of activity, if one wishes to engage in that type of accusation? Most, if not all, I presume.
There are other wolf-in-sheeps'-clothing organizations besides the Way and some of its off-shoots. But if you presume that most, if not all, Christian denominations in the U.S. engage in that type of activity, I suggest you widen the circle of your Christian fellowship.
The fellowship the faculty members have at the interdenominational academy where I teach is just as sweet as the fellowship I experienced at any TWI event, MORE sweet than in most twigs. We aren't trying to put a phoney class together. We're trying to enable young Christians to function in the real world.
You wrote, "I prefer to look on CES' doctrinal teachings as beliefs that you or I may not concur with; rather than they must have some sinister evil selfish motive behind it...
I would PREFER to think that way, too, except I had a personal hand in the evolution of CES doctrine.
I was a contributor to, and on the editorial staff of "Dialogue" magazine. They used to send me their book manuscripts to comment on before publication. I taught at one of CES' Chicago weekends, and on one of their bi-monthly tapes. I used to do some of their scripture indexes. I got to hear JAL's thinking evolve in the weekly teaching at his home fellowship.
CES published "22 Principles of Biblical Interpretation". These principles were regurgitations of things that had been taught in PFAL. I demonstrated from Scripture that three of the principles contradict each other. They stopped their ears.
They have used their ultradispensationalist interpretations to say that the revelation in Romans is inferior to the revelation in Ephesians, when Paul says the same thing in both Romans 11 and Ephesians 2.
They say that prophets who make mistakes are NOT speaking presumptuously.
They say that God doesn't have foreknowledge, without realizing that either makes the universe deterministic with no free will at all, or the fulfillments of the Bible's prophecies are flukes. All to shore up their contention "Don't Blame God!". They reduce God to the level of a man, a sappy man at that. One friend said they make God look like the Pillsbury Doughboy. You can poke Him in the gut all you want to, the only thing He will do is giggle. They make God IRRESPONSIBLE.
They call Jesus mistaken. They say JESUS was WRONG, when the things He said don't square with THEIR theology.
Do they have "some sinister selfish motive behind it"?
I don't think so. They say eat the fish and throw away the bones. I just don't think they can actually tell the difference between the fish and the bones, because they STILL HAVEN'T come to grips with the truth that TWI is and was a cult.
I just spent some time looking over their web site, something I haven't done in a whale. I see they are now starting up a WOW Ambassador program. Since they don't acknowledge that TWI was a cult, they are unconsciously replicating it. THEY don't think they are a cult, but they are.
Love
Steve
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excathedra
i'm filling out their outreach ambassador application right now
there's a section on spiritual health. they want to know about the demonic influences in my life....
i put down greasespot, okay?
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Raf
Unconsciously?
I think, as far as the WOW-type program is concerned, they are well aware of what they're doing (ie, replicating TWI).
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oldiesman
Steve, this is probably one reason why I like them. They acknowledge that TWI was a genuine ministry at one time. They take the goodies from twi, and drop the errors. (or at least have tried, or made some attempts, at some points.) It appears to be an improvement to me, at least an improvement of what exists in twi today. Ok, so its probable they aren't correct on some doctrines. And who among us is 100% correct on all the doctrines?
Eat the goodies, and spit out the bones.
Have a nice weekend, one and all!
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Steve Lortz
Sorry, I did a double post.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
Raf - You wrote,
You're right, Raf, they ARE aware they are replicating TWI. What they are unconscious of is the truth that they are replicating a CULT. They don't even consider it. TWI was too much of their lifestyle. They couldn't have it anymore. They are replicating it, fish AND bones.
Love,
Steve
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Raf
Regarding the statement "Jesus was wrong..."
Those aren't their words. They are my summary of their words. I think it's important, if anyone is taking this discussion seriously, to see what they're saying in their words. If you think I'm misrepresenting them, call me on it.
It's Question 15: There are three pdfs.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Well...Anybody who goes to a church is associating themselves with a "distinct group"...that distinction is generally specified in a "Statement of beliefs" document. Every Christian organization that I have ever seen has their own distinct beliefs...otherwise, what are they doing, calling themselves a church? The fact that CES has embraced a good portion of twi's old doctrine is not a surprise, nor should it be. If you like the teachings of EW Bullinger and all the other writers that Wierwille stole from, you will probably like CES also. Of course they have added a few twists of their own to the doctrine, tweak it here, turn it there...but that also is to be expected.
The real question that should be asked is, how does this "ministry" actually work? How do the "leaders" interact with the followers? Is there any manipulation, elitism, abuse, sex, financial pressures placed upon followers, etc. etc. etc???
I have gone to "church" often enough to know there is a MASSIVE difference between the way a "normal" church operates and interacts with their church members and the way that twi operated and interacted with their followers. Twi wasn't just looking for you to come to church on Sunday and tithe, they wanted your ENTIRE LIFE! Time, allegience, money, etc...twi bled people dry! Class after class, meeting after meeting, seminar after seminar...go WOW, go corps, get ordained, wear the right nametag, be a limb coordiantor, be a trunk coordinator...climb the waytree, be all that you can be! Now, is CES more like this, or are they more like going to a "normal" church? It's your life...
;)-->
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mj412
Yes Tom that is the way it went, Ask Ralph D. if you do not believe me he went to Matindale and actualy questioned him why as they went to the same "twig".. John S. and walter both took a hit at that time. Their research took time and money ( I think it was about two years for that paper ask John for the time line) and it was on twi bank account martindale and walter squashed it. heads roll.
Im sorry but so many think these groups just fall from heaven and happen by some miricle of God like the feel good sing along buy our stuff shows you pay to go to. no it is somone thinking planning and I would say coniving. the fact two ex wifes and five children need to be fed and happy and paid for along with the new wifes and girlfriends it can get expensive. some body needs to plan and plan they do and their corporate model knows how to make money and loads of it. what do ya think ? that these uneducated hill billies from some cubic hole on an OHIO farm know how to do it any other way?
to their benefit now both John and Mark can pay for the tuition for an actual college education as well as their children off your pay check. Im sure they are thankful quite a move up for a window washer and a office gopher boy for VPW> yes who says a cult doesnt have a ladder of success ? I know twi never offered that as a perk of the job hahahaha . so now they will have real credits other than being in a cult for most of their life . yeah they love ya baby. do you ever look at how they live? they go to school vacation together for weeks at a time, travel when they want . Maybe the fact I have seen so many families struggle for decades after the toll of paying the way who are older and uneducated without pension homes etc. People who never had a chance to even have families cause they worked so hard for this kind of game it kind of bites my *** to listen to Mark tell us all about his new class and the paper he writes. Hey how many while in the way could pay for their kids to go to college work when you felt like it and vacationed in the best spots etc. etc? oh that is right they are special they are Gods leaders . I cant stand this anymore! if they happen to throw you a 4 dollar tape filled with an hour of their up coming events and advertising lucky you I know you feel loved and special . .
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mj412
Ex.
yeah baby lol that should do it!!!
hehehehehehahaha lol
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sky4it
Thank you Raf and Lifted up:
Wordwolf: Still wondering about my question in the previous post.
I do concur with your thinking on the MOGFOT thing, that certainly would be "Diode # 4" in which seemed to make Frankenstien thrive best.
Frankenstien still can wobble around a lot and do some serious damage just with those three diodes hooked up tho. I dont remember much about mogfot in my days there.
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sky4it
Uncle Harry:
Most of my recollection on EW Bullinger is that he really didnt "teach" anything. He had a couple books, but the companion bible is just a reference thing, that specializes in outlines and appendixes, pretty stale stuff. He really wasnt a whole lot different than reading a youngs or strongs concordance. In that regard, it really isnt bad stuff.
The difficulty is, a lot of folks one would think, could never enjoy any of that on there own again. It made stuff from him and others seem evil, including the Bible.
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sky4it
mj412:
After reading all your posts, I am speechless. Really?
So your saying all the diodes are hooked up and Frankenstien liveth?
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mj412
I am able to recognize knowledge and academics from self worship and alligence to a man or woman in an organization clearly sky4.
I think that was a little insulting to those who simply trusted people to be honest and trusted them to care about them as christians should .
the accusation of "thinking evil" is flying around Im certain about my attitude towards CES. Let me say the other side of that is believing that everyone who spews out bible verses actualy lives and does the application with an honest and pure heart with Love towards the Lord Jesus Christ and His body.
I think that is what CES stole from people the most. WE are a people created to love one another to consel one another and to minister to one another what CES did was steal that away from Christ as the leader of Gods people and make their own deal more important .
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mj412
I am saying people go with what they are comfortable with and apples do not fall far from the tree. sky4
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sky4it
Mj412
I couldnt agree more with the relevance of an honest and pure heart analogy part of your topic.
:)--> As I said on another thread, it really never was what TWI had that really frightened me, but what I thought they never wanted.
With relation to Ministries and such, I certainly think that term is often used inapprobrately. Noah ministered with a hammer and a nail in the sight of everyone.
There is something about our Lord that often gets missed. He is so low, in fact made a little lower than the angels. I think he is that way because he accessible to all of us. This trait so makes me love him.
I agree with your assertations that ministers who are inaccessible are really just tyrants for themselves. The ministry can and does become the focal point, instead of the individual. I think that means MJ, that the work you and I and other unrecognized peons are doing for others , is what the Lord really wants.
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mj412
I have known Jesus since I was a vey young child , honestly spoke to Him and prayed and read the bible and felt His companionship.
Yet I have no more or less of a relationship than the child today who is walking a country path looking at the wild flowers and asking God how He made them.
or the man or woman who has lived a life of ruin and decay with drugs or alcohol and asked for forgivness and recieved it from a healthy loving Lord.
Jesus Christ Loved us enough to die for us , for a reason and that was so each of us can have a relationship with the one and only God for all eternity with HIM.
I will always owe God always. Most christians are nice and good honest people the bible says to live peaceably amoung ALL MEN.
Those who have aligned themselves with these groups are filling a need in their life to be sure , my entire point in all this is the fact they will never find it in these groups but the love and peace they desire is available in a world created for HIS people.
the world is a good place Jesus makes it so and every day is exciting knowing a better place is yet to come where will all be free of the discord and strife and games people play.
I go out Im so happy I see the love of God in so many , doing what we do to make a difference for everyone , not debating doctrine or who claiming who is right or wrong or more important or not . life is so easy and without trouble when you can break free of the prisons these leadrs make for your life.
God does need us to do anything but love Him with our whole heart. but your group will sell you differently . you have been bought people with the price of His only sinless child. please remember that.
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J0nny Ling0
I concur with Tom Strange, but I know for a fact that John S. took it upon himself to write the paper on adultery, and when he was asked to leave the subject alone, he proceeded anyway. TWI did not initially ask him to do the research. That would have been foolish of them, for they knew what John S. was to find.
So, when he started it, they tried to shut him down, but he proceeded anyway, and he was subsequently fired for it.
Draw your own conclusions...
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mj412
same difference it was done on the twi payroll and they disagreed on it he sent the paper to outside folks when he feeling mighty threatened by the way over the fact they did not want it released and he did.
He was extremely intimidated by twi at the time not because he wrote the paper but he was threatened to not share the information he had with anyone and did anyways. he was afraid for his life and wanted the information to get out that so he sent it to those no longer in. and shortly after joined up with John LYNN. he is not a hero either he wrote a paper onsex and the bible wowo Im impressed and was afriad of the leaders that paid him to do it and behind their back sent it out to those he wanted to. (Martha Steward is going to Jail for much less sly and sneaky business practice) If he saved your life from the division and split up of a cult and you worship him and his new found one for it go ahead . he can also be defined as a back stabing friend and an illegal employee using any means to get an edge in the war about to begin between the two sides of the same pile of **** with money to be had. It was policy to not allow research material to go outside the dept unless approved. John Lynn was already started his rampage, DR. was dead and had stayed dead lol and people were looking for a new man to be made king of the cult.
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Raf
MJ
I think it really damages your argument against these men to believe that what JS did (research what the Bible said about adultery and make sure people got to see it) is worse than what Martha Stewart did (insider trading and obstruction of justice). I'm not saying Martha Stewart deserves to go to jail, but she did do something illegal. JS did... what, exactly? Disobey ungodly leadership? He writes a paper on adultery (in his capacity as a researcher in a Biblical research ministry), gets threatened for it, resists the threats...
and you're taking TWI's side?
Help me here, you lost me.
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mj412
I do not think he is a hero with a cause raf.
it was company policy to not allow the release of any research unless approved . The paper he wrote was not approved of he worked for the company and gave it to those he knew would keep it for him that were outside of twi and they were wrong for firing him?
he did what he had to do fine and dandy but to be shocked and shame a company will fire a person for breaking a MAJOR policy .
God speaks about being an honest employee and person as well and because it was twi it is excused as harmless and ok? cant you see they played the victim card in this as well? if he had worked for any other company and released inside work and information no one would bat an eye on the fact he was let go . but I think it is deeper and about the fact they did not want to work for LCM fine again then quit and call it a day wash your hands of a bad job no not these guys they had enough back and wnated the money roll and the people to go with them so they made it happen. Am I taking sides? TWI was a company RAF. with millions of dollars if not billions , they had policy and rules for the dept. as anyone who worked there will tell you and because these two knew what they were doing to start their own cult twi was wrong to stand up for itself? I do not think so.
they are excused for their behaviours and wrongs and lies and sneaky ways because they had the mouth to save everyone who was being kicked out and leaving after vpw death? did they save you?
plenty will claim they did .
do not make it more than it is JohnS was paid to write a paper for twi research done at twi belongs to twi not to the individual who wrote it they didnt want it released ( oh now everyone is shocked ???) it was the companys right to not release research without approval and John S., released it anyways and got fired. big deal whoo wee . John S broke company policy knew he was going to be fired for it counted on a year of unemplyment and joined up with John Lynn to start CES where their work would be their own . at least just call a spade a spade.
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